Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Sad Professor

Hector Savage wrote: »

Out of curiosity - what stage would IX be at ? rough draft of a script ? fully written script and starting to prep. for shooting ??

I know it's a bit of an open question, but would be interesting to know.
I know TLJ started filming in Jan. 2016.

It’s way behind. JJ only just pitched his idea to the studio. Unless they push the release back to 2021 it’ll be a seat of the pants job.

Christy42

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

bullvine wrote: »

The film is an absolutely terrible film. Basic story telling has gone out the window, the limp excuse for Rey's Family Background and the treatment of Snokes Character. Wheres the reward in that?

While I wasn't wild on the direction they took Luke, far more so than the original trilogy the entire strength of this trinity rests heavily on what Ep9 delivers.

I like TLJ but Ep9 will make or break everything up to this point and has the power to bring it together.... or break it like the prequels.

While I agree they have left a lot on ep9 it is certainly far above the prequels as is in my opinion.

Much less of a focus on trade discussions and the negative qualities of sand is always a good thing in my books!

Plenty of people talk about how now anyone can be force sensative. Was that not always the case? I get it is genetic but there could be plenty of unknown lines of force sensativity around the galaxy.

I mean to my mind Rey's parents were force sensitive but would have never known it. I mean neither Leia or Luke knew of their abilities at the start of a new hope. Maybe thousands of potential force users have lived out their lives without knowing their potential. Or have I forgotten a piece of information? I was happy with the choice not have every main character related but as I said I had no expectation that all force users had to come from a lineage known for their force use.

Hector Savage

Sad Professor wrote: »

It’s way behind. JJ only just pitched his idea to the studio. Unless they push the release back to 2021 it’ll be a seat of the pants job.

2021 ! :O

It's scheduled for a Christmas 2019 release!!

Giruilla

Drumpot wrote: »

Those shouting the loudest aren't necessarily a reflection of the wider audience. In many cases, people who are happy enough with the movie don't feel the need to share their opinions or open themselves up to criticism by those spitting fire.

The assumption seems to be that your opinion needs validation by a rating system voted by people. As I mentioned, not all people feel the need to validate their opinions online so its a reflection of supporters, not movie goers. Generally, people going to enjoy this movie as a fantasy movie will not be upset by the moments that are being highlighted as issues.

My point is that there a numerous news articles purporting that the score on RT is not reflective of the actual audience feeling, and is more akin to trolling/score manipulation. This isn't backed up by the fact that the poor reviews are actually the detailed reviews, whereas the positive reviews are by and large short "best star wars film ever!" reviews. These short high frequency reviews are what would normally be used for score manipulation.

Sad Professor

Hector Savage wrote: »

2021 ! :O

It's scheduled for a Christmas 2019 release!!

Very unlikely they'll meet that. Disney only fired the previous writer and director 3 months ago, so the film is back to early development. Summer 2020 at the earliest and that will still probably involve going into production without a proper script. In fairness to JJ, he's brilliant at improvising and re-writing on set, but it's probably not what fans will want to hear for the last film in the trilogy.

TerrorFirmer

Christy42 wrote: »

While I agree they have left a lot on ep9 it is certainly far above the prequels as is in my opinion.

Much less of a focus on trade discussions and the negative qualities of sand is always a good thing in my books!

Plenty of people talk about how now anyone can be force sensative. Was that not always the case? I get it is genetic but there could be plenty of unknown lines of force sensativity around the galaxy.

I mean to my mind Rey's parents were force sensitive but would have never known it. I mean neither Leia or Luke knew of their abilities at the start of a new hope. Maybe thousands of potential force users have lived out their lives without knowing their potential. Or have I forgotten a piece of information? I was happy with the choice not have every main character related but as I said I had no expectation that all force users had to come from a lineage known for their force use.

Oh, I fully agree it's, and TFA, are far better films than the prequels in almost every aspect - directing, acting, scripting, etc.

One could argue that the prequels had better vision, but realistically they're poor, fundmentally flawed films that only a reboot could 'fix'.

Whereas with the current trilogy, I found TFA safe, solid but fairly generic, while TLJ takes bold strides forward (notwithstanding some serious issues) - but for me, though, the big fear is that the finale will play it too safe and fail to address the numerous threads left hanging not just by TLJ, but by TFA as well.

I feel like when Ep9 drops, the trilogy taken in its entirety could be a thing of beauty for the ages ala the OT, or render the whole thing a largely forgettable albiet very enjoyable affair.

Abrams isn't stupid, however. Some people may not like him but he's a smart guy and he knew exactly what he was doing with TFA - a safe, solid film that would ignite the franchise, but there's an enormous amount betweent he lines all the same.

Just, please, PLEASE deliver on all of it!

Tony EH

D.Q wrote: »

2nd viewing this evening. A lot more enjoyable second time around. Pacing seemed better.

Such a shame there are certain moments that are truly hard to watch. I'm going to go through what I don't like about it, but this is coming from someone who loved the film. Third favourite star wars I'd say. (empire, R1)

The holding for general hux bit at the start is horrendously framed. We get the famous star wars music and crawl, pans down to a huge, threatening ship. Then they do the classic avengers style cutting all music and sound effects for a comedic beat, but it just doesn't land. No need for it there and really sets the film off on a flat note. Struggles to recover but it does eventually get the correct tone back.

Unfortunately this leads us nicely to leia floating through space. Not even bothered breaking this down. Looked ridiculous, made no sense. Another cringey moment.

Thankfully it gets back on track again, Luke and rey drama ramping up a bit on the island.

Finn/Rose is the last issue I have with it. Really clumsy, on the nose, mushy ****e. I absolutely hated the actress that played Rose. She was so hard to take seriously. Looked half porg. Gormless face, awful dialogue and worse delivery. The initial interaction with Finn made my skin crawl and only got worse from there. Her and Finn finishing each others sentences to explain their convoluted plan to the audience, her interaction with the horse creatures (Disneyland ride in 3,2,1) and finally with her "save the things we love" line. A definite contender for one of the worst star wars characters ever. Took me out of the moment every time she was on screen.

Loved everything else. Kylo Ren is right up there as one of the most compelling characters of the entire saga. I'm right behind Rey as a hero. Lukes demonstration of power was amazing, as was his final scene. Some genuinely lovely heartfelt moments between Luke and leia, the two sun's appearing. The porgs and caretakers provided genuine comedy. Cinematography and score was absolutely flawless.

8/10 for me.

If Leia could have dragged Rose out into space with her and stayed there, it would have been 9.5.

While it certainly isn't a 8/10 for me, I can agree with all the negative points here.

Rose is an especially out of place Star Wars character, to be polite (now I am expressly talking about the character here - not the actress who's been on the end of some internet stupidity for being in a bloody film). She's just there so Disney can claim an extra bit of "diversity", although the only diversity Disney care about is the diverse sound of different cash registers around the globe. She adds nothing to proceedings whatsoever and coupled with Finn - another contender for "Worst SW character Evar" - their chapter is just woeful, with a finale that's simply shocking mush. They're largely responsible for knocking a lot of points off of the final score.

No problem with the caretakers (the poor feckers) and even the porgs weren't that bad (but there was too much of them, they should have been a single joke).

So the Rose thing coupled with really questionable "humour" makes it a 5/10 for me so far. It might not stay that way. A judiciously cut fan edit may increase it's worth, but at the moment there's just way too much bad going on in 'The Last Jedi'.

All the more remarkable, because none of it needs to be there.

Saruhashi

Giruilla wrote: »

If anyone thinks the RT audience reviews are just 'trolling' and not a true indicator of fans reactions... I suggest going onto the message boards and actually reading a few pages of the reviews.

Look at the detail the 1/2 star reviews go into compared with the 4/5 star reviews. You'll notice a severe disparity.

I've yet to talk to anyone IRL who thought it was good. I still can't get over how appalling it was. I can't see myself going to see another star wars film, think I'm done. I get it, I'm not the target audience anymore. It's sad that this new trilogy is actually increasing my respect for the prequels.

I'm actually a bit confused as I've seen a few articles speculating that the negative reviews are due to trolls or bots etc but there's a really, really easy way to check this for yourself.

The Force Awakens
93% from 378 critics.
88% from 224,235 users.

The Last Jedi
93% from 313 critics.
55% from 114,675 users.

A 3.5 rating is required for a ""liked it" user review by the way.

As it stands the idea that the audience irrationally hates Star Wars just because it's Star Wars doesn't stand up because the audience score for Episode VII is very good. People seemed to love that movie.

It's also worth noting that TFA has almost twice as many individual user reviews. If there was some kind of "review bombing" campaign in process you'd expect to see unusually massive numbers of reviews for TLJ.

(for reference, Justice League currently has 117,402 user reviews @ 79% and Guardians of the Galaxy 2 has 103,836 user reviews @88%, Batman v Superman has 230,003 user reviews @63% and Captain America; Civil War has 175,030 user reviews @89%)

Maybe it is just trolls and I am missing some huge thing when I look at these figures. Out of those 114,675 user scores you'd need 25 to 30% of them to be troll scores to bring the overall rating down significantly (assuming that non trolls are giving it a 3.5 rating 80+% of the time).

I saw people citing Cinemascore and pointing out The Last Jedi has an "A" on there and that is a better gauge of audience reactions.

Cinemascore for Transformers - Dark of the Moon = A
Cinemascore for Tyler Perrys Boo 2, A Madea Halloween = A-
Cinemascore for Jurassic World = A

Note: This is not intended as "proof" that the movie is bad. If you think it's good then it's good. Fine.

The point of this is not to comment on the movie. It is to show how the, apparently quite popular, idea that the user score is so low because of some coordinated troll attack simply does not add up.

TerrorFirmer

Giruilla wrote: »

My point is that there a numerous news articles purporting that the score on RT is not reflective of the actual audience feeling, and is more akin to trolling/score manipulation. This isn't backed up by the fact that the poor reviews are actually the detailed reviews, whereas the positive reviews are by and large short "best star wars film ever!" reviews. These short high frequency reviews are what would normally be used for score manipulation.

I think it's not quite that level of conspiracy. People who hate any film will take to the internet and explain why, and most often in detail.

People who simply like something either won't full stop, or only fleetingly.

I don't think RT is trolls or bots, I just think it's a platform where the discontented have made themselves most known - and that's fine, it's the purpose of the site and the wider internet.

Reddit is similar. Huge amount of hate there, but the overall polls there and elsewhere - including IMDB - indicate most people strongly liked it.

If you look at the discussion here on boards, realistically a few of us are driving that entire discussion with a few fleeting posts from people just to express their opinion.

Christy42

Tony EH wrote: »

D.Q wrote: »

2nd viewing this evening. A lot more enjoyable second time around. Pacing seemed better.

Such a shame there are certain moments that are truly hard to watch. I'm going to go through what I don't like about it, but this is coming from someone who loved the film. Third favourite star wars I'd say. (empire, R1)

The holding for general hux bit at the start is horrendously framed. We get the famous star wars music and crawl, pans down to a huge, threatening ship. Then they do the classic avengers style cutting all music and sound effects for a comedic beat, but it just doesn't land. No need for it there and really sets the film off on a flat note. Struggles to recover but it does eventually get the correct tone back.

Unfortunately this leads us nicely to leia floating through space. Not even bothered breaking this down. Looked ridiculous, made no sense. Another cringey moment.

Thankfully it gets back on track again, Luke and rey drama ramping up a bit on the island.

Finn/Rose is the last issue I have with it. Really clumsy, on the nose, mushy ****e. I absolutely hated the actress that played Rose. She was so hard to take seriously. Looked half porg. Gormless face, awful dialogue and worse delivery. The initial interaction with Finn made my skin crawl and only got worse from there. Her and Finn finishing each others sentences to explain their convoluted plan to the audience, her interaction with the horse creatures (Disneyland ride in 3,2,1) and finally with her "save the things we love" line. A definite contender for one of the worst star wars characters ever. Took me out of the moment every time she was on screen.

Loved everything else. Kylo Ren is right up there as one of the most compelling characters of the entire saga. I'm right behind Rey as a hero. Lukes demonstration of power was amazing, as was his final scene. Some genuinely lovely heartfelt moments between Luke and leia, the two sun's appearing. The porgs and caretakers provided genuine comedy. Cinematography and score was absolutely flawless.

8/10 for me.

If Leia could have dragged Rose out into space with her and stayed there, it would have been 9.5.

While it certainly isn't a 8/10 for me, I can agree with all the negative points here.

Rose is an especially out of place Star Wars character, to be polite (now I am expressly talking about the character here - not the actress who's been on the end of some internet stupidity for being in a bloody film). She's just there so Disney can claim an extra bit of "diversity", although the only diversity Disney care about is the diverse sound of different cash registers around the globe. She adds nothing to proceedings whatsoever and coupled with Finn - another contender for "Worst SW character Evar" - their chapter is just woeful, with a finale that's simply shocking mush. They're largely responsible for knocking a lot of points off of the final score.

No problem with the caretakers (the poor feckers) and even the porgs weren't that bad (but there was too much of them, they should have been a single joke).

So the Rose thing coupled with really questionable "humour" makes it a 5/10 for me so far. It might not stay that way. A judiciously cut fan edit may increase it's worth, but at the moment there's just way too much bad going on in 'The Last Jedi'.

All the more remarkable, because none of it needs to be there.

The point of Rose is so Finn has someone to talk to and all those scenes are not in silence. You can argue she is not the best written character but the reasoning for the character not being there is not diversity. If you give Finn his own plot line you really want another character along with him.

She does end up adding little beyond being someone for Finn to talk to.

Honestly I am surprised at the reaction to the movie. Personally I thought it far above TFA which was too safe and boring for me. I understand why he went safe with the first movie but those reasons don't make it an incredible watch.

Zubeneschamali

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Just, please, PLEASE deliver on all of it!

I can't see it: Han is dead, Luke is dead, Leia can't appear (maybe a funeral as the intro?). Admiral Akbar and vice Admiral LauraDern are dead.

Poe and Fin are idiots who got the entire rebellion killed bar themselves and few folks that fit on the Falcon.

On the dark side, Snoke is dead, but the Empire First Order now rule the galaxy. Again.

With JJ in charge of IX and under time pressure, we will get yet another rehash. Rey must talk to Luke's ghost on Tattooine, and then confront Ren (again), while Poe, Fin and Chewie mount a desperate attempt to destroy the Hux's new superweapon, whatever it is.

Giruilla

Christy42 wrote: »

Honestly I am surprised at the reaction to the movie. Personally I thought it far above TFA which was too safe and boring for me. I understand why he went safe with the first movie but those reasons don't make it an incredible watch.

For me TFA was one type of safe - rely on nostalgia.

TLJ was another type of safe though - jump on the Marvel bandwagon and fill the movie with tension breaking 'humour' because you've absolutely no faith in being able to create dramatic tone that works.

Thats just one of the films many problems though.

Looper007

Amazing to think, A Star Wars film been one of the most divisive films along with mother! of 2017. Either you love it or hate it, no inbetween with many people.

Love that about film that it brings about great discussion. This is definitely the Batman Vs Superman of this year.

Tony EH

Saruhashi wrote: »

I'm actually a bit confused as I've seen a few articles speculating that the negative reviews are due to trolls or bots etc but there's a really, really easy way to check this for yourself.

A large problem with RT's aggregate is that it's purely binary. Fresh or Rotten. There's not meh result.

Consider that a meh 2.5 stars out of 5 constitutes a rotten score, that...right there...is very "off". People who give a middle the roads score, who like some parts, but not others, are actually contributing to a splat, even though they don't dislike the entire film.

The average audience score on RT is 3.3/5. That indicates an average film, with nods to good moments.

It's not bots, it's people just, largely, giving a film an average (meh) review.

It's things like the "Tomatometer" that's the problem.

Tony EH

Christy42 wrote: »

The point of Rose is so Finn has someone to talk to and all those scenes are not in silence. You can argue she is not the best written character but the reasoning for the character not being there is not diversity. If you give Finn his own plot line you really want another character along with him.

She does end up adding little beyond being someone for Finn to talk to.

Honestly I am surprised at the reaction to the movie. Personally I thought it far above TFA which was too safe and boring for me. I understand why he went safe with the first movie but those reasons don't make it an incredible watch.

He can talk to DJ?

homerun_homer

Looper007 wrote: »

Love that about film that it brings about great discussion. This is definitely the Batman Vs Superman of this year.

Ooooh, I dunno about that. BvS was just outright bad at everything. Everything about The Last Jedi is worthy of debate.

As bad as floating in space Leia is, I've been more accepting of it compared to the Martha moment.

Chris_Heilong

homerun_homer wrote: »

Ooooh, I dunno about that. BvS was just outright bad at everything. Everything about The Last Jedi is worthy of debate.

As bad as floating in space Leia is, I've been more accepting of it compared to the Martha moment.

BvS was a great film with only one or two questionable moments which angered people, TLJ has a hell of a lot more questionable moments. 2017 is the year of disappointment Alien: covenant, Justice League and now SW:TLJ.

Tony EH

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I can't see it: Han is dead, Luke is dead, Leia can't appear (maybe a funeral as the intro?). Admiral Akbar and vice Admiral LauraDern are dead.

Poe and Fin are idiots who got the entire rebellion killed bar themselves and few folks that fit on the Falcon.

On the dark side, Snoke is dead, but the Empire First Order now rule the galaxy. Again.

With JJ in charge of IX and under time pressure, we will get yet another rehash. Rey must talk to Luke's ghost on Tattooine, and then confront Ren (again), while Poe, Fin and Chewie mount a desperate attempt to destroy the Hux's new superweapon, whatever it is.

Gawd....

That's probably the way it'll go too.

TerrorFirmer

Not wanting to drag this particular discussion off topic but I really didn't get the hate for BvS either. Some serious issues but on the whole a very decent film I thought. That said, Lex Luthor was horrifically miscast....and I'm not even a fan of either Superman or Batman outside of the movie incarnations, so I can only imagine what franchise fans felt.

That's the thing though for franchise fans in general, of any brand going. What's unacceptable, insulting, or downright terrible decision making in the minds of fans, is generally just accepted by the wider audience. I remember going to see JJ Abrams Star Trek and thinking it was brilliant - and almost couldn't understand when my die-hard trekkie friend was so disappointed by it.

Looper007

homerun_homer wrote: »

Ooooh, I dunno about that. BvS was just outright bad at everything. Everything about The Last Jedi is worthy of debate.

As bad as floating in space Leia is, I've been more accepting of it compared to the Martha moment.

Oh I don't mean it's that bad :pac:. I mean I haven't seen so much love and hate since that one.

Christy42

Tony EH wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

The point of Rose is so Finn has someone to talk to and all those scenes are not in silence. You can argue she is not the best written character but the reasoning for the character not being there is not diversity. If you give Finn his own plot line you really want another character along with him.

She does end up adding little beyond being someone for Finn to talk to.

Honestly I am surprised at the reaction to the movie. Personally I thought it far above TFA which was too safe and boring for me. I understand why he went safe with the first movie but those reasons don't make it an incredible watch.

He can talk to DJ?

He can but you need to remove the casino scene and you need to change DJ's character a decent bit.

I get people might be ok with removing the casino scene (and not that I would care) but if you keep it you want someone along side him. You also probably want something else there or it becomes a bit lacking in substance. There is also the set up for the final movie but it depends where they go with that. You would kill DJ's character to stick him in the rebellion there. You are also sticking pretty much all ideas onto Finn and Poe for this scheme. That last one is not a massive deal but you are limiting the case a decent chunk.

While a lot could have been improved about the character and the scenes they were in it is a decent bit of work to remove them.

I feel like it is a weird argument as I am arguing for the existence of a character as opposed to the character being good. Similarly for scenes, I am saying I get why they put scenes in, not that they were perfectly executed.

I think people are too quick to say diversity hire when a non main character does not immediately seem American.

TerrorFirmer

While I do have gripes with the Canto stuff, I think the point of it was pretty relevant to the plot of the film. DJ isn't a brilliant character - or maybe not portrayed as well as he could have been - but his message is extremely important in the overall narrative.

Zubeneschamali

Christy42 wrote: »

I think people are too quick to say diversity hire when a non main character does not immediately seem American.

The problem here is not diversity hiring policy, it is superfluous characters wasting 30 minutes of screen time on pointless detours which don't advance the plot (such as it is).

Rose could have been male, female, white, black, an alien or a droid and been no better- she was a waste of screen time regardless.

Tony EH

Christy42 wrote: »

He can but you need to remove the casino scene and you need to change DJ's character a decent bit.

Easily done and it would improve the film immensely.

Finn and Poe work out what he has to do with Maz. Finn still files to the Casino planet. He gets arrested. Meets DJ in klink (who should actually turn out be the guy he's looking for). They escape. DJ turns out to be a bit dodge (because Maz runs a dodgy establishment after all). Things play out snappier, without space camels and all useless surplus.

No need for Rose at all.

Plus, the less people Finn has to talk to, the better IMO. His dialogue and delivery are rubbish.

Cantona's Collars

homerun_homer wrote: »

Ooooh, I dunno about that. BvS was just outright bad at everything. Everything about The Last Jedi is worthy of debate.

As bad as floating in space Leia is, I've been more accepting of it compared to the Martha moment.

About the Leia in space bit,I wonder if the ship's shield gave her some protection?

Saruhashi

Tony EH wrote: »

A large problem with RT's aggregate is that it's purely binary. Fresh or Rotten. There's not meh result.

Consider that a meh 2.5 stars out of 5 constitutes a rotten score, that...right there...is very "off". People who give a middle the roads score, who like some parts, but not others, are actually contributing to a splat, even though they don't dislike the entire film.

The average audience score on RT is 3.3/5. That indicates an average film, with nods to good moments.

It's not bots, it's people just, largely, giving a film an average (meh) review.

It's things like the "Tomatometer" that's the problem.

For sure, I do not think the RT score or any score can accurately tell you how good a movie may or may not be.

In general, I think people know what they like and often will know from trailers or the first 10 mins of the movie if something is for them or not.

There are plenty of movies hated by audiences and critics that I quite like and plenty of movies loved by critics and/or audiences that I do not like.

I am 93% fine with critics giving a movie a high score then audiences giving the same movie a low score.

What does not sit right with me is when a website publishes a review that gives a movie a high score then a few days later publishes an article dismissing fans who give the movie a low score.

Something is not right there. As much as IMDB message boards were absolute garbage 75% of the time it still raised an eyebrow when they were shut down. An outright attack, from multiple outlets, on RT scores in the aftermath of disagreement between reviewers and fans seems a bit "off" to me.

December 12 - Star Wars: The Last Jedi, review - Yes, it's really that good.
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/12/16749732/star-wars-review-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-luke-rey

December 18 - Star Wars: The Last Jedi is being review bombed on Rotten Tomatoes
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/18/16792184/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-review-bomb

I wouldn't be surprised if this starts a wave of actual review bombing that drives the score down further as trolls figure out that they can annoy people by mass down-voting the movie. Maybe that's the intention here.

The only people who really benefit from delegitimizing the RT users score are the critics and here we are.

I've no idea to what extent the user score of a movie could affect the actual profits made, hopefully none, but if it does have an impact then I'd be suspicious about all of this.

Wonder Woman has 89% user score from 121,876 individual reviews, for example. The Last Jedi has 55% from 114,675. Surely there is a massive overlap in those two audiences? Given what so many of these articles hint at (sexism in fandom) wouldn't Wonder Woman be a prime target for negative review bombing? Ah, but Wonder Woman's user score is in line with the critics (92%).

Even the controversial Ghostbusters 2016 has 116,320 user reviews @ 52% compared to it's 74% from critics.

It's just TOO suspicious for me that multiple outlets are running articles about "review bombing" that seem to suggest that the evil trolls online are bringing down Star Wars. Oh, and they do this without evidence.

Strange.

Is it possible that Disney might punish outlets that... nah, now I'm getting conspiratorial too! :P

Tony EH

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

While I do have gripes with the Canto stuff, I think the point of it was pretty relevant to the plot of the film. DJ isn't a brilliant character - or maybe not portrayed as well as he could have been - but his message is extremely important in the overall narrative.

The ultimate point of it is fine. It's just terribly handled. Really terribly handled.

Foxtrol

Giruilla wrote: »

For me TFA was one type of safe - rely on nostalgia.

TLJ was another type of safe though - jump on the Marvel bandwagon and fill the movie with tension breaking 'humour' because you've absolutely no faith in being able to create dramatic tone that works.

Thats just one of the films many problems though.

Seems like a regular argument at this stage to attempt to link the humour to Marvel influence but it ignores that this kind of humour can be seen throughout the original trilogy. Star Wars is littered with attempted (some good, some bad) humour including at tense moments. This is just more of the same.

Foxtrol

Saruhashi wrote: »

For sure, I do not think the RT score or any score can accurately tell you how good a movie may or may not be.

In general, I think people know what they like and often will know from trailers or the first 10 mins of the movie if something is for them or not.

There are plenty of movies hated by audiences and critics that I quite like and plenty of movies loved by critics and/or audiences that I do not like.

I am 93% fine with critics giving a movie a high score then audiences giving the same movie a low score.

What does not sit right with me is when a website publishes a review that gives a movie a high score then a few days later publishes an article dismissing fans who give the movie a low score.

Something is not right there. As much as IMDB message boards were absolute garbage 75% of the time it still raised an eyebrow when they were shut down. An outright attack, from multiple outlets, on RT scores in the aftermath of disagreement between reviewers and fans seems a bit "off" to me.

December 12 - Star Wars: The Last Jedi, review - Yes, it's really that good.
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/12/16749732/star-wars-review-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-luke-rey

December 18 - Star Wars: The Last Jedi is being review bombed on Rotten Tomatoes
https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/18/16792184/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-review-bomb

I wouldn't be surprised if this starts a wave of actual review bombing that drives the score down further as trolls figure out that they can annoy people by mass down-voting the movie. Maybe that's the intention here.

The only people who really benefit from delegitimizing the RT users score are the critics and here we are.

I've no idea to what extent the user score of a movie could affect the actual profits made, hopefully none, but if it does have an impact then I'd be suspicious about all of this.

Wonder Woman has 89% user score from 121,876 individual reviews, for example. The Last Jedi has 55% from 114,675. Surely there is a massive overlap in those two audiences? Given what so many of these articles hint at (sexism in fandom) wouldn't Wonder Woman be a prime target for negative review bombing? Ah, but Wonder Woman's user score is in line with the critics (92%).

Even the controversial Ghostbusters 2016 has 116,320 user reviews @ 52% compared to it's 74% from critics.

It's just TOO suspicious for me that multiple outlets are running articles about "review bombing" that seem to suggest that the evil trolls online are bringing down Star Wars. Oh, and they do this without evidence.

Strange.

Is it possible that Disney might punish outlets that... nah, now I'm getting conspiratorial too! :P

There is evidence that groups on FB etc have set up to do just that. Unless you're saying someone has set these up to make it seem people are out to review bomb the movie when they're not then which would be a whole other level of conspiracy. It seems like it is happening but the actual impact of it can be questioned.

TerrorFirmer

Foxtrol wrote: »

Seems like a regular argument at this stage to attempt to link the humour to Marvel influence but it ignores that this kind of humour can be seen throughout the original trilogy. Star Wars is littered with attempted (some good, some bad) humour including at tense moments. This is just more of the same.

All Star Wars films have comic relief, but it's far more subtle than the slapstick in TLJ.

There is nothing in the OT, prequels, or even TFA that matches the level of spoof featured in this movie.