Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Leroy42

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

There was not one competent male character in the whole film, they are all idiots. I have not seen it this bad since Ghostbusters 2016.

And? You had only 1 female in the entire 3 originals so how is fine for men to lead but not women.

Also, Kylo Ren is male isn't he. A Finn beat the crap out of Plasma who apparently was pretty serious soldier and Finn is a nobody.

And Luke, a man, was the real hero of the whole thing!

Tony EH

Foxtrol wrote: »

So ignore the droids and Ewoks and I suppose any other instance that doesn't suit your argument for the OT? I think that is the definition of putting of putting on blinkers.

The droids are actually funny though, in places. C3PO's character suits what he does and says. He's a prissy protocol droid, programmed that way. He makes sense.

As opposed to Finn, who doesn't make sense at all.

The Ewoks are harmless, for the most part. But are, in and of themselves, a terrible thing.

There not there just for silly humour though.

That being said, they are, without doubt the worst thing about 'Return of the Jedi' and the original films.

The OT has its flaws, even in its unabused form. But excessive, stupid humour, purely for the sake for it isn't one of them.

Goodshape

Foxtrol wrote: »

So ignore the droids and Ewoks and I suppose any other instance that doesn't suit your argument for the OT? I think that is the definition of putting of putting on blinkers.

I'm ignoring the ewoks because "you dislike the out of place humour in that film, so why hate it now?" isn't much of an argument. But even in RotJ they didn't prevent some really serious stuff happening in the rest of the film.

But the droids are an example of classic comic relief in a scifi drama. That's in contrast to (almost) every character having their chuckle moment, knowing wink, or just being an outright joke (Hux).

ixoy

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The critics are probably thinking it makes no sense, but hey, scifi for kids and fans, right?

Are you saying critics only think sci-fi is for fans and kids? 'Coz reviews for the likes of 'Bladerunner 2049' would rubbish that argument. And 'Star Wars' is as much a fantasy film as sci-fi...

Is it not possible, just possible, that they enjoyed it as a popcorn film? I know I enjoyed it - it's flawed obviously and 'Rogue One' is far better - but it was entertaining. They don't hold the franchise in the same esteem as fans do but that doesn't invalidate their opinion either.

Foxtrol

Goodshape wrote: »

I'm ignoring the ewoks because "you dislike the out of place humour in that film, so why hate it now?" isn't much of an argument. But even in RotJ they didn't prevent some really serious stuff happening in the rest of the film.

But the droids are an example of classic comic relief in a scifi drama. That's in contrast to (almost) every character having their chuckle moment, knowing wink, or just being an outright joke (Hux).

No, I was responding to someone posting that humour was new to Star Wars to mimic Marvel when that clearly isn't the case. That was my comment when posters came in to shift the goal posts that 'well it was a different type of humour' or 'it was only from certain characters'.

It isn't as if the comedy stopped serious stuff from happening in TFA either. There was plenty of serious scenes like the throne scene to the final standoff with Luke.

We differ on our preferences then. I'd rather humour mixed throughout all the characters at different moments rather than everyone acting grim and serious while at the same time you have a handful of characters with basically zero function other than to pepper in 'comic relief'.

I agree the humour could have been written and delivered better in TFA but that is a complete different discussion.

Giruilla

Foxtrol wrote: »

No, I was responding to someone posting that humour was new to Star Wars to mimic Marvel when that clearly isn't the case.

.

Giruilla wrote: »

You didn't even understand my post you quoted. My point is that they use 'humour' (which if you can't see how its Marvel influenced you're blind), because they had no faith in being able to create dramatic tension with the material they had.
The OT has serious uninterrupted dramatic tension throughout each film, with sparing use of comic relief.
Hans rogue-ish humour when he says "I know", is funny yet perfectly enhances the drama of that scene.
Yoda saying "page turner, it is not", is f*cking jarring and I could barely look at the screen. All I could think throughout TLJ is.. "what am I supposed to be feeling here?".. because the constant shift in tone is confusing and ultimately leaves you disengaged and bored.

Zubeneschamali

ixoy wrote: »

They don't hold the franchise in the same esteem as fans do but that doesn't invalidate their opinion either.

Fair enough - if the critics are judging it as a dial-down-your-brain popcorn flick, pretty pictures, laser swords, cheap laughs, plot not supposed to make sense, consistency with others in the series unimportant, then they may be right.

I'm unable to look at any film that way, but I suppose if I had to look at two movies a day every day as a pro critic, I'd learn to or go mad.

johnny_ultimate

*opens up can of petrol, casually starts pouring it on ground*

I just generally like the humour in the film, with a few overly goofy exceptions (Porg being flung around the cockpit, especially after than great scene of Chewie's BBQ). I think it channels and embraces a vein of silliness that has been there in the franchise since C3PO and R2D2 first waddled onto screen. It's a franchise that has always been to me popcorn fun first and foremost. But the humour particularly works here compared to TFA given Johnson's more deconstructionist leanings, and his willingness to make light of much of the series' tropes and dead ends.

*tosses match on ground, leaves thread*

Grayditch

It was weird that they completely disarmed and undermined Kylo Ren in pretty much his first scene in TFA for the sake of a semi-decent joke.

Goodshape

Foxtrol wrote: »

No, I was responding to someone posting that humour was new to Star Wars

And I wasn't arguing with you. Just pointing out that a couple of well placed comic-relief side characters and one Han Solo does not equate to a film full of bad jokes from every angle.

I mean who's supposed to be the comic relief here anyway? Is it Poe with his Solo-esque 'wit', or Finn with his wise cracks and fish-out-of-water antiques, or Leia with her quips, or Hux with everything he does, or Luke with his "daring" subversion of our expectations, or Yoda re-doing his ESB schtick, or Chewbacca with his cut-away gags, or Benicio Del Toro with his speech impediment, or the Porgs, or the caretakers.

The original couple of films had the droids. And Solo was charming.

There is a difference, that's all I'm saying.

We differ on our preferences then. I'd rather humour mixed throughout all the characters at different moments rather than everyone acting grim and serious while at the same time you have a handful of characters with basically zero function other than to pepper in 'comic relief'.

Then I guess we do differ on our preferences . I like my sci-fi with a pretty straight face. Like Star Wars used to do it.

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

The droids are actually funny though, in places. C3PO's character suits what he does and says. He's a prissy protocol droid, programmed that way. He makes sense.

As opposed to Finn, who doesn't make sense at all.

The Ewoks are harmless, for the most part. But are, in and of themselves, a terrible thing.

There not there just for silly humour though.

That being said, they are, without doubt the worst thing about 'Return of the Jedi' and the original films.

The OT has its flaws, even in its unabused form. But excessive, stupid humour, purely for the sake for it isn't one of them.

First rule when lambasting the reboot or new installments of a cherished franchise seems to be to ignore any negative similarities with the sacred originals. This wouldn’t be the first franchise where I have seen the exact same selective nitpicking.

It’s Almost like some people knew this was going to not meet their expectations and went to the movie to prove it wouldn’t! Finding all evidence that confirmed their suspicions, instead of just trying to enjoy it!

Foxtrol

Giruilla wrote: »

You didn't even understand my post you quoted. My point is that they use 'humour' (which if you can't see how its Marvel influenced you're blind), because they had no faith in being able to create dramatic tension with the material they had.
The OT has serious uninterrupted dramatic tension throughout each film, with sparing use of comic relief.
Hans rogue-ish humour when he says "I know", is funny yet perfectly enhances the drama of that scene.
Yoda saying "page turner, it is not", is f*cking jarring and I could barely look at the screen. All I could think throughout TLJ is.. "what am I supposed to be feeling here?".. because the constant shift in tone is confusing and ultimately leaves you disengaged and bored.

The same non-jarring uninterrupted dramatic tension where in ESB Chewie runs around wearing C3PO as a backpack while he screams random jokes throughout the scenes where Han is being frozen and in the midst of the Luke and Vader fight?

Zubeneschamali

For balance, things I liked:

There's a scene right at the start, looking up at a blue sky as the Star Destroyers drop into view which is great, looks like it could be from Rogue One.

The Skelligs looked great (the various CGI inhabitants, not so much).

Leia gets blasted out into space and dies - a worthy last scene (Leia saves herself, nope).

The ramming sequence is stunning.

Luke walks out of the base at the end, and Ren says "Fire every gun we have at that man" - perfect. I heard my daughter say "YESSS!" beside me. The only time they don't act like Bond villains with learning difficulties.

Giruilla

Foxtrol wrote: »

The same non-jarring uninterrupted dramatic tension where in ESB Chewie runs around wearing C3PO as a backpack while he screams random jokes throughout the scenes where Han is being frozen and in the midst of the Luke and Vader fight?

Yeah, thats how it went down alright.

Foxtrol

Goodshape wrote: »

And I wasn't arguing with you. Just pointing out that a couple of well placed comic-relief side characters and one Han Solo does not equate to a film full of bad jokes from every angle.

I mean who's supposed to be the comic relief here anyway? Is it Poe with his Solo-esque 'wit', or Finn with his wise cracks and fish-out-of-water antiques, or Leia with her quips, or Hux with everything he does, or Luke with his "daring" subversion of our expectations, or Yoda re-doing his ESB schtick, or Chewbacca with his cut-away gags, or Benicio Del Toro with his speech impediment, or the Porgs, or the caretakers.

The original couple of films had the droids. And Solo was charming.

There is a difference, that's all I'm saying.

Then I guess we do differ on our preferences . I like my sci-fi with a pretty straight face. Like Star Wars used to do it.

Again this probably down to preference but I don't see the need for a specific comic relief character, you saw what happened with Jar Jar. It is much more natural to have a number of characters have funny moments than a few being notched up to 1000%.

I also disagree on Star Wars being straight faced because you have to ignore so much of it. I could understand you saying certain characters are straight faced but that is a totally different thing and it is still the case for TFA, just maybe less of them.

david75

So there are bots reviewing this. What a surprise

https://twitter.com/yeblod/status/943048876650586112?s=17

Foxtrol

Giruilla wrote: »

Yeah, thats how it went down alright.

You obviously haven't watched it recently.

"Don't blame me, I'm an interpreter how am I supposed to tell a power socket from a computer terminal".

Oh I forgot to add that C3PO had his head on backwards will spending his time as a backpack but I'm sure that was just to add to the tension of the scenes.

Saruhashi

Relevant to TLJ and the discussion here, in my opinion.

kg703

Went to see it over the weekend. Had heard nothing about it beforehand (have seen all other SW films) except 'OMG SPOLIERS'. I liked half of it and didnt like half of it. Read back through a few pages here and seems most people in agreement on most things. They tried to play it safe and I think most wanted something maybe with a little more substance?

Pretty much everything with Rey and Kylo was awesome. Was super disappointed she didnt take his hand, not to join the dark side but it could have been not good/bad just different. Thought both were great and thought Kylo's character came on brilliantly from the last one where he was almost like a child trying to prove himself.

Everything with Finn in it was pretty awful to be honest. The Casino bit was pointless. I don't know if its the actor or the writing (Chromedome - groan). I dont like Rose. Why did she save him?! It would have made 10 x more sense for him to die.

Spoiler - what spoiler? Her parents - IMO that could still not be true. I was expecting some massive twist in the movie.

Seriously - how has no one copped on to the 'distraction' method. The baddies fall for it every time!

Some of the fights and chases were fun to watch. Thought the film looked and sounded great.

All in all, I am expecting a mediocre third movie though based on that. Rey wins, Kylo loses. The first order get distracted 10 times and all the good guys just manage to escape One might have an emotional death. :pac:

kdevitt

david75 wrote: »

So there are bots reviewing this. What a surprise

https://twitter.com/yeblod/status/943048876650586112?s=17

There seem to be as many positive TLJ reviews in under that movie as negative ones. And most seem to be pretty well articulated. Potentially just added it under the wrong title.

Reality is, no matter how you look at it - it’s divided audiences.

Giruilla

david75 wrote: »

So there are bots reviewing this. What a surprise

https://twitter.com/yeblod/status/943048876650586112?s=17

Theres positive 4/4.5 star 'bot' reviews on same page but conveniently left out of the image you are quoting.

kg703

Oh and BDT's lisp................

Zubeneschamali

Saruhashi wrote: »

Relevant to TLJ and the discussion here, in my opinion.

Watched the first minute - and disagree with that minute 100%. The scene he likes is a cliché, and the one he hates knows it's a cliché and makes a joke instead.

As to WW, it wasn't bad for a DC movie, but it was only OK. Better written than TLJ, sure.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

So there are bots reviewing this. What a surprise

https://twitter.com/yeblod/status/943048876650586112?s=17

It sure would be embarrassing for you if there were positive Star Wars reviews in the 7 pages under the same movie (The Shape of Water)

Oh wait...

5 Stars on December 17 - Amazing performances from all involved, a fresh and new story that will keep you on the edge of your seat, incredible visual effects all come together to create the best "Star Wars" film yet!

5 Stars on December 17 - Stop expecting something and instead we excited to know we finally have no idea what's coming. Rian did great at providing fun, and reverence, and epic scale. Take a step back: this is a truly epic tale we are seeing, and we are the beneficiaries of the drama. And while Carrie's role was awesome, Mark was insanely good. I'm very excited where this franchise is going.

4 Stars on December 15 - Easily the most thought provoking Star Wars movie yet. Many underlying themes to explore. Excellent movie in second viewing

4.5 Stars on December 15 - I put the film on par with Return if the Jedi and slightly below my second favorite of the franchise, A New Hope. It takes the saga in a new direction while closing old storylines without leaving plot holes and disappointment. Honestly, I could t see what would mnake this film any better.

And that's just the ones that are obviously for Star Wars. Plenty could be either or. All reviews posted by bots?

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_shape_of_water_2017/reviews/?page=2&type=user&sort=

You've been duped by Twitter BS mate, sorry.

kg703

Saruhashi wrote: »

Relevant to TLJ and the discussion here, in my opinion.

Watched this. Don't necessarily agree - it depends on how its done. I mean GOTG2 suffered from this a LOT. Jokes where there shouldn't have been jokes - just trying too hard.

Wonder Woman was awful. I'm not sure how anybody enjoyed it, I was literally cringing the whole way through.

TLJ - I don't see how it suffered from losing drama to jokes really....were there that many jokes in the movie?! Maybe I missed them......

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

It sure would be embarrassing for you if there were positive Star Wars reviews in the 7 pages under the same movie (The Shape of Water)

Oh wait...

5 Stars on December 17 - Amazing performances from all involved, a fresh and new story that will keep you on the edge of your seat, incredible visual effects all come together to create the best "Star Wars" film yet!

5 Stars on December 17 - Stop expecting something and instead we excited to know we finally have no idea what's coming. Rian did great at providing fun, and reverence, and epic scale. Take a step back: this is a truly epic tale we are seeing, and we are the beneficiaries of the drama. And while Carrie's role was awesome, Mark was insanely good. I'm very excited where this franchise is going.

4 Stars on December 15 - Easily the most thought provoking Star Wars movie yet. Many underlying themes to explore. Excellent movie in second viewing

4.5 Stars on December 15 - I put the film on par with Return if the Jedi and slightly below my second favorite of the franchise, A New Hope. It takes the saga in a new direction while closing old storylines without leaving plot holes and disappointment. Honestly, I could t see what would mnake this film any better.

And that's just the ones that are obviously for Star Wars. Plenty could be either or. All reviews posted by bots?

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_shape_of_water_2017/reviews/?page=2&type=user&sort=

I don’t read reviews or metric score sites. That seems to be your thing. I’d rather make up my own mind on a film and not seek validation on my opinion from critics scores. They’re irrelevant.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

I don’t read reviews or metric score sites. That seems to be your thing. I’d rather make up my own mind on a film and not seek validation on my opinion from critics scores. They’re irrelevant.

The point of that was not to comment on the movie AT ALL. It was to show how the, apparently quite popular, idea that the user score is so low because of some coordinated troll attack simply does not add up.

You basically disproved your own point by linking to a movie (The Shape of Water) that has a good few positive Star Wars reviews.

You won't even admit you got it wrong! :pac:

That Twitter guy tricked you, and plenty of others I'm sure.

This must be, what, the 4th or 5th run at "trolls or bots or Russians are deliberately bringing the score down" on the thread?

nix

Drumpot wrote: »

First rule when lambasting the reboot or new installments of a cherished franchise seems to be to ignore any negative similarities with the sacred originals. This wouldn’t be the first franchise where I have seen the exact same selective nitpicking.

It’s Almost like some people knew this was going to not meet their expectations and went to the movie to prove it wouldn’t! Finding all evidence that confirmed their suspicions, instead of just trying to enjoy it!

I'm sorry but the reoccurring issues being pointed out as faults are far away from what anybody can deem nitpicking. I'm a fan of TFA and despite its flaws, the movie is fluid and the issues at hand dont stand out, at least not near to the extent of the issues/character changes in this movie.

johnpatrick81

TFA was non stop, and far more fluid and enjoyable and just felt way more immersive. Maybe it was a more simple film, but it worked far better. TLJ bit off more than it could chew, and it just suffered in many ways as a result.

Drumpot

Saruhashi wrote: »

Relevant to TLJ and the discussion here, in my opinion.

WW was DC following most of the Marvel formula.

The only real difference between WW and Captain America original story when fighting with allies is that CA didn't give up and abandon humanity. Not particularly heroic of WW IMO.