Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

DrWu

I see fans that didn't like the movie have a petition to remove TLJ from Star Wars canon and be completely remade.

I gave up supporting football teams because the fans are such idiots. Starting to feel the same way about Star Wars.

Sad Professor

The film has been a big hit with critics and cinephiles with many calling it the best since Empire. Everyone in my Twitter feed loved it. Fans have been very split, but the negativity has been exaggerated. It started 24 hours before the film was released in response to plot spoilers when most people hadn't even seen it yet. This has the effect of drowning out positive discussion.

Johnson says 80-90% of the response he has received via Twitter has been very positive. I assume the other 10-20% is the usual death threats, "you ruined by childhood", and dudes burning their Star Wars merchandise, but that's par for the course with these films. I think the main difference here is that the people who hate it really really hate it. Some of this I think is due to blowback from JJ's mystery box plotting in TFA, some of it orchestrated trolling from 4chan who don't like the film for political reasons, and some of it because the film genuinely doesn't work for a lot of viewers.

Penn

DrWu wrote: »

I see fans that didn't like the movie have a petition to remove TLJ from Star Wars canon and be completely remade.

I gave up supporting football teams because the fans are such idiots. Starting to feel the same way about Star Wars.

I always find it amazing that such fans can wear both rose-tinted glasses and blinkers at the same time.

Everyone loves the original trilogy, but there are as many problems with those films as there are with the newer ones (though neither have as many problems as the prequel trilogy, fans are right about those in fairness).

Saruhashi

DrWu wrote: »

I see fans that didn't like the movie have a petition to remove TLJ from Star Wars canon and be completely remade.

I gave up supporting football teams because the fans are such idiots. Starting to feel the same way about Star Wars.

To be fair here that petition got something like 12,000 signatures.

Compare to the approx 45,000,000 people who saw the movie in the US and Canada on opening week.

On the scale of a football team like Liverpool (for example) this would be approximately 13 angry fans per home match in front of a packed stadium.

That's assuming that every single one of those signatures is from the US.

If you consider it on a worldwide scale then obviously the number of fans who are angry enough to sign a petition is considerably less.

For now it's safe to assume that for every 10,000 people who watch the movie in the USA there are 3 who were angry enough to sign a petition.

Hardly enough to throw fandom under the bus.

BlackEdelweiss

I just wished there were more stormtroopers and ATAT's in it!

Goodshape

Sad Professor wrote: »

Johnson says 80-90% of the response he has received via Twitter has been very positive. I assume the other 10-20% is the usual death threats, "you ruined by childhood", and dudes burning their Star Wars merchandise, but that's par for the course with these films.

That's kind of strange because the majority of people I've spoken to in the real world either didn't like it, or thought it was just another fun disposable over-long blockbuster – something in between the last Thor movie and the next Avengers or whatever – and those people really don't care much about Star Wars or sci-fi, it's just a cinema trip.

And I think most cinema goers fall into that second category, so bully for $DIS.


Personally I'm not 'protective' about Star Wars, but really I just didn't think this was a good film. Tonal shifts, crazy pacing, too many characters and sub-plots, no sense of importance to any of the events in a 2.5 hour film. I mean, Luke dies and myself and the rest of the cinema seemed to just go "...wha?".

I am hoping I can at least enjoy it a bit more on a second viewing, with my expectations in check and a more comfortable seat (and no 3D glasses). But I'm not in a hurry to go back and find out.


The review-bombing / 'ruined-my-childhood' stuff is just typical Internet nonsense though. I think we can ignore that.

Saruhashi

Penn wrote: »

I always find it amazing that such fans can wear both rose-tinted glasses and blinkers at the same time.

Everyone loves the original trilogy, but there are as many problems with those films as there are with the newer ones (though neither have as many problems as the prequel trilogy, fans are right about those in fairness).

You're doing the same thing yourself by saying that fans are right about the prequels.

The RT audience score for The Phantom Menace is 59%. A "like" is a rating of 3.5 or higher. The average rating is 3.3 for that movie.

Out of 1,203,446 users 59% think the Phantom Menace is a 3.5/5 or higher.

I would argue that the 3 trilogies are very different tonally. You could take a random 30 minute segment from the prequels, a random 30 minute segment from the originals and a random 30 minute segment from the sequels and probably almost instantly see the massive differences in tone.

It seems reasonable to me that you could think Rogue One and TFA are great movies and also think that TLJ is a really bad movie. I know because that's how I feel about them myself.

I don't even need to back to the originals. I can go back one year and say Rogue One is a fantastic Star Wars movie. Then I can look at The Last Jedi and say it's a load of rubbish.

If I could go back in time I'd go back to the early 2000s and force Lucas to put a scene in the prequels where Yoda gets blasted out into space but then uses the force to fly back to his ship. Just to see how people would react.

Zubeneschamali

Another positive angle: TFA recycled the original Star Wars, but this one recycled not just the plot of Empire, but it packed in key scenes from return of the jedi, too.

The AT-AT attack on Hoth is burned, the throne room scene is gone, force-ghost Yoda has visited, the wise old Jedi master is dead already...

So, it did pretty much as Kylo Ren said - it destroyed the past, and left very little for JJ to recycle in Episode IX. He could be forced to do something original.

Zubeneschamali

Saruhashi wrote: »

If I could go back in time I'd go back to the early 2000s and force Lucas to put a scene in the prequels where Yoda gets blasted out into space but then uses the force to fly back to his ship. Just to see how people would react.

In fairness, that would have been better than what we got in the prequels.

conorhal

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Another positive angle: TFA recycled the original Star Wars, but this one recycled not just the plot of Empire, but it packed in key scenes from return of the jedi, too.

The AT-AT attack on Hoth is burned, the throne room scene is gone, force-ghost Yoda has visited, the wise old Jedi master is dead already...

So, it did pretty much as Kylo Ren said - it destroyed the past, and left very little for JJ to recycle in Episode IX. He could be forced to do something original.

It felt like a soft reboot in the middle of a trilogy with no clue where it was going afterwards.

DrWu

The petition is just an example really. Social media, Youtube etc is flooded with angry fanboys shouting down the few people who genuinely loved the movie. It's pretty appalling stuff imo.

I see criticism of the prequels and criticism of TLJ as two completely different things. Whether you like the prequels or not, they are badly made movies. The story is flawed at the most fundamental level, the script is appalling, the pacing is dreadful, the characterisation is almost non-existent, and that's not even getting into the finer minutiae like CGI etc. But if you love them great! There are movies I enjoy that I know are badly made (most of them are horror movies) but that's ok.

TLJ is a well made movie. People may not like it or get upset or offended by it, whatever, but it is a good movie. That's why it has got such overwhelmingly positive reviews from critics. Yes it has flaws, and most critics have pointed them out, but overall it is very fine movie. For me the biggest tragedy of all would have been fpr Disney to produce a movie that these fans actually wanted. Because if you follow the fanboys expectations it would have been a very dull affair. Basically a formula film like James Bond.....ugh!

Saruhashi wrote: »

To be fair here that petition got something like 12,000 signatures.

Compare to the approx 45,000,000 people who saw the movie in the US and Canada on opening week.

On the scale of a football team like Liverpool (for example) this would be approximately 13 angry fans per home match in front of a packed stadium.

That's assuming that every single one of those signatures is from the US.

If you consider it on a worldwide scale then obviously the number of fans who are angry enough to sign a petition is considerably less.

For now it's safe to assume that for every 10,000 people who watch the movie in the USA there are 3 who were angry enough to sign a petition.

Hardly enough to throw fandom under the bus.

Goodshape

DrWu wrote: »

The petition is just an example really. Social media, Youtube etc is flooded with angry fanboys shouting down the few people who genuinely loved the movie. It's pretty appalling stuff imo.

Honestly, ignore it. That side of "social media, Youtube etc" is trash. Pay too much attention to that stuff and you end up with a Trump for president.

Tony EH

ixoy wrote: »

A franchise killer? Yeah, just like the mauled "Phantom Menace" killed off the franchise back in the late '90s after which we never saw a Star Wars film again. This must be one of the greatest exaggerations yet on this thread.

In fairness, the prequels DID actually kill the franchise for 10 years.

pixelburp

I think even those who did like the movie on balance are not unaware of the flaws, but are living with them and willing to overlook whatever negatives were present. Certainly that's the case for me: I really didn't like some of the uses of humour, they often shattered the otherwise stirring personal drama, but it didn't ruin the film; beyond those flaws, I think Last Jedi is probably the most cinematic, beautiful and emotionally powerful Star Wars film made, tied possibly with 'Empire...', but here there was a much better, more creative director at the helm.

Tony EH

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Can someone explain why this movie is getting such positive reviews?

Outside the RT audience score it's rated really high, even Mark Kermode loved it.

What am I missing?! The overall feedback on this thread alone seems to be most people did not like it and found it very poor.

I could understand the opposite - fans loving the movie and critics hating it but not the other way round

Well, it seems to be averaging out as a 6/10 - 7/10 film. So, that indicates a good film, with some serious issues preventing a higher score.

The thing is, everybody who is critical of the film has been critical of roughly the same problems.

So, as far as I can tell, the concensus seems to be that it's a relatively ok film that's hampered by some terribly handled scenes, scenarios, humour, characters and (above all) tone.

Saruhashi

DrWu wrote: »

The petition is just an example really. Social media, Youtube etc is flooded with angry fanboys shouting down the few people who genuinely loved the movie. It's pretty appalling stuff imo.

I see criticism of the prequels and criticism of TLJ as two completely different things. Whether you like the prequels or not, they are badly made movies. The story is flawed at the most fundamental level, the script is appalling, the pacing is dreadful, the characterisation is almost non-existent, and that's not even getting into the finer minutiae like CGI etc. But if you love them great! There are movies I enjoy that I know are badly made (most of them are horror movies) but that's ok.

TLJ is a well made movie. People may not like it or get upset or offended by it, whatever, but it is a good movie. That's why it has got such overwhelmingly positive reviews from critics. Yes it has flaws, and most critics have pointed them out, but overall it is very fine movie. For me the biggest tragedy of all would have been fpr Disney to produce a movie that these fans actually wanted. Because if you follow the fanboys expectations it would have been a very dull affair. Basically a formula film like James Bond.....ugh!

I do not agree that TLJ is a good movie.

The Last Jedi is a mess. As the second part of an ongoing trilogy it feels totally out of place. Like it should be the final chapter in a lot of ways. With a few extra additions it could easily be a final chapter.

The story is flawed at the most fundamental level. It doesn't follow on well from the previous chapter OR set up the next chapter well.

The script is appalling "chrome dome", "crystal critters", the whole thing with Poe and Hux, Snokes telegraphing his own death "he's turning his light saber to strike down his true enemy". Did Poe really make a "yo momma" comment in that opening scene?

The pacing is dreadful.

Kylo Ren is the only interesting character.

And that's not even getting into the finer minutiae like CGI, flying Leia, pointless Admiral Holdo, Casino high-jinks, Captain Phasmas "execution" of Finn. Kylo and Rey fighting those red plastic soldiers in a scene that looks ripped from an edgy American pop music video. Ben and Rey's cringey Twilight-esque interactions.

Some very puzzling decisions and awkward attempts at comedy.

Am I "shouting down" people who loved the movie by expressing that opinion?

I'm feeling like it's OK to hate the movie but it's not OK to say you hate the movie. I didn't even "hate" it, to be honest. That would be too strong. I just think it's really, really, bad.

Hector Savage

Foxtrol wrote: »

I see that after a few days of complete heart break for all the Star War theory guys they are already back at it.

They're saying Snoke might not actually be dead and it somewhat makes sense.

Hopefully!

Mayoman93

Was a very mediocre film... Something just felt off about it.

dirtyden

pixelburp wrote: »

I think even those who did like the movie on balance are not unaware of the flaws, but are living with them and willing to overlook whatever negatives were present. Certainly that's the case for me: I really didn't like some of the uses of humour, they often shattered the otherwise stirring personal drama, but it didn't ruin the film; beyond those flaws, I think Last Jedi is probably the most cinematic, beautiful and emotionally powerful Star Wars film made, tied possibly with 'Empire...', but here there was a much better, more creative director at the helm.

Good summary. I really enjoyed it and certainly a film that looked great on the big screen. It had some bad stuff, Rose and Finn in particular but overall it was a very solid 7. Was surprised at the level of negativity.

CptMackey

After watching it last night the only thing that I thought was daft was when Leila was blasted out of the bridge. It would have been a good end if she died then as apposed to coming back. Apart from that I enjoyed it over all. The scene on the salt flats looked amazing and the kylo and ten bits were well done.

Zubeneschamali

DrWu wrote: »

Whether you like the prequels or not, they are badly made movies. The story is flawed at the most fundamental level, the script is appalling, the pacing is dreadful, the characterisation is almost non-existent, and that's not even getting into the finer minutiae like CGI etc.

All of this is true of TLJ, and critics have spelled it out here in this thread.

Tony EH

NIMAN wrote: »

A good point I suppose.

If the last SW film you enjoyed was in 1983, then maybe it is time to let it go!

Having said that, I thought TFA and R1 were grand films. Just that this one was a completely different level of average.

Personally speaking, it's 'Rogue One', 'Star Wars', 'The Empire Strikes Back' and 'Return of the Jedi' for me. That's a great set of films there.

'The Force Awakens' was, in the main, a disappointment. But, with a little editing here and there, it's quite watchable. 'The Last Jedi' will benefit from the same approach, I've no doubt. It would be quite easy too. No "on hold", no Mary Poppins Leia, less porgs. Cut the film and keep a balanced tone throughout. The only difficult area for editing that I can forsee is that Canto Bight section and Rose's crap at the end.

The prequels don't exist for me.

But, despite being around since the start, I've never cared for the EU and the cartoons are for 7 year old's. They just don't do anything for me at all.

However, when Star Wars get it right, they can really get it right and with 'Rogue One', even Disney have shown that they CAN actually get it right.

It's funny, with all the Disney committee interference that's been bombarded onto these Star Wars films, I'm even more interested in seeing Gareth Edwards original cut for 'Rogue One'. So far, he's the only one that's come close to recapturing the spirit of the original films.

CalamariFritti

Can we actually just use boards the way it was supposed to be used instead of having a go at each other all the time?

I didn’t like it. Think it was very poor. So fkn what. Do I now have to apologise for that to the people who do like it?

Does every thread descend into a train wreck these days?

Mayoman93

CptMackey wrote: »

After watching it last night the only thing that I thought was daft was when Leila was blasted out of the bridge. It would have been a good end if she died then as apposed to coming back. Apart from that I enjoyed it over all. The scene on the salt flats looked amazing and the kylo and ten bits were well done.

When she was alive and flew back I was absolutely dumbfounded. One of the worst examples of plot Armor I've seen in a while.

Tony EH

DrWu wrote: »

I see fans that didn't like the movie have a petition to remove TLJ from Star Wars canon and be completely remade.

I gave up supporting football teams because the fans are such idiots. Starting to feel the same way about Star Wars.

Saw that the other day. How ridiculous. There are no words. :rolleyes:

Now, if it was the prequels they wanted removed, I'd be the first name on the list. :pac:

johnpatrick81

Leia scene (the execution of it! I Didn't actually mind the idea!) reminded me of this so much

DrWu

Chill dude, I wasn't have a go at you. You're having a reasonable debate about why you didn't like it. Cool.

I do hear what you're saying but even critics who generally aren't mad about SW, like Ebert, Kermode (and traditionally tough reviewers like The Telegraph and Rolling Stone) were glowing in their reviews.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about it's merits as a movie (not just as a "Star Wars" movie). I've been with the franchise since 77 and its the first time since ROTJ that I felt that same child-like wonder.

Saruhashi wrote: »

I do not agree that TLJ is a good movie.

The Last Jedi is a mess. As the second part of an ongoing trilogy it feels totally out of place. Like it should be the final chapter in a lot of ways. With a few extra additions it could easily be a final chapter.

The story is flawed at the most fundamental level. It doesn't follow on well from the previous chapter OR set up the next chapter well.

The script is appalling "chrome dome", "crystal critters", the whole thing with Poe and Hux, Snokes telegraphing his own death "he's turning his light saber to strike down his true enemy". Did Poe really make a "yo momma" comment in that opening scene?

The pacing is dreadful.

Kylo Ren is the only interesting character.

And that's not even getting into the finer minutiae like CGI, flying Leia, pointless Admiral Holdo, Casino high-jinks, Captain Phasmas "execution" of Finn. Kylo and Rey fighting those red plastic soldiers in a scene that looks ripped from an edgy American pop music video. Ben and Rey's cringey Twilight-esque interactions.

Some very puzzling decisions and awkward attempts at comedy.

Am I "shouting down" people who loved the movie by expressing that opinion?

I'm feeling like it's OK to hate the movie but it's not OK to say you hate the movie. I didn't even "hate" it, to be honest. That would be too strong. I just think it's really, really, bad.

Saruhashi

Tony EH wrote: »

Personally speaking, it's 'Rogue One', 'Star Wars', 'The Empire Strikes Back' and 'Return of the Jedi' for me. That's a great set of films there.

'The Force Awakens' was, in the main, a disappointment. But, with a little editing here and there, it's quite watchable. 'The Last Jedi' will benefit from the same approach, I've no doubt. It would be quite easy too. No "on hold", no Mary Poppins Leia, less porgs. Cut the film and keep a balanced tone throughout. The only difficult area for editing that I can forsee is that Canto Bight section and Rose's crap at the end.

The prequels don't exist for me.

But, despite being around since the start, I've never cared for the EU and the cartoons are for 7 year old's. They just don't do anything for me at all.

However, when Star Wars get it right, they can really get it right and with 'Rogue One', even Disney have shown that they CAN actually get it right.

It's funny, with all the Disney committee interference that's been bombarded onto these Star Wars films, I'm even more interested in seeing Gareth Edwards original cut for 'Rogue One'. So far, he's the only one that's come close to recapturing the spirit of the original films.

I think the main objection is that you liked those 4 movies (I did too) and feel like they define Star Wars BUT there were elements from those 4 that were present in TLJ.

So the originals had comedy and the new one has comedy. Therefore if you hated the comedy in TLJ then it follows that you must hate the originals too. Gotcha!

It's almost like there is an accusation that you are lying when you say "loved RO and ANH and ESB, liked ROTJ and TFA, didn't like prequels and TLJ" and people are trying to expose you as a liar.

The other main one I see is that TFA played it safe and TLJ did everything unexpected SO if you thought TFA was too safe then you are an idiot for not liking TLJ as it didn't play anything safe.

No. There is a middle ground. TFA was a perfectly enjoyable movie that basically said "remember Star Wars?" and played it safe to get everyone back to the old style of SW that went away in 1983.

TLJ is a jarring uncomfortable and awkward mess. Sure it's not a safe copy of the old format but it's different in a bad way, not a good way.

Since when was "it's completely different" automatically a good thing?

If the next one introduced time travel would it get bonus points for being different or would it be panned for bringing time travel in to Star Wars?

I suppose Rey could use the force to create an alternative timeline which would open the door to complete remakes/reboots of Episodes 1 to 6?

Foxtrol

Saruhashi wrote: »

I think the main objection is that you liked those 4 movies (I did too) and feel like they define Star Wars BUT there were elements from those 4 that were present in TLJ.

So the originals had comedy and the new one has comedy. Therefore if you hated the comedy in TLJ then it follows that you must hate the originals too. Gotcha!

It's almost like there is an accusation that you are lying when you say "loved RO and ANH and ESB, liked ROTJ and TFA, didn't like prequels and TLJ" and people are trying to expose you as a liar.

The other main one I see is that TFA played it safe and TLJ did everything unexpected SO if you thought TFA was too safe then you are an idiot for not liking TLJ as it didn't play anything safe.

No. There is a middle ground. TFA was a perfectly enjoyable movie that basically said "remember Star Wars?" and played it safe to get everyone back to the old style of SW that went away in 1983.

TLJ is a jarring uncomfortable and awkward mess. Sure it's not a safe copy of the old format but it's different in a bad way, not a good way.

Since when was "it's completely different" automatically a good thing?

If the next one introduced time travel would it get bonus points for being different or would it be panned for bringing time travel in to Star Wars?

I suppose Rey could use the force to create an alternative timeline which would open the door to complete remakes/reboots of Episodes 1 to 6?

It's the hyperbole that is the issue for me anyway. If people come out saying 'it's a jarring uncomfortable and awkward mess because of x, y, z' but in the same breath saying you like movies that have the same 'x, y, z' in them it makes no sense. No one is calling you a liar but what I'm trying to understand is how these issues can absolutely ruin a movie (or kill a franchise in some cases) for you in one instance but be overlooked in another.

Sad Professor

I was listening to the BBC's Film Programme podcast about the film and Adam Rutherford described the Skellig islands as being off the coast of Scotland. :eek: