Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Saruhashi

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I get the idea of checking a review for something you've never heard of, to gauge whether or not you should check it out, but who actually cares about review scores for something like a Star Wars movie?

Same here. I could have gotten 15% from critics and 10% from audiences and I would still go to see what the new Star Wars is all about.

I'm sure I'll be there for the midnight show of Episode IX too, depriving a "true" fan of their seat.

Things I get suspicious of are "attacks" on fans who didn't like (or just flat out hated) the movie and people aggressively pushing the idea that the movie has to be viewed more than once.

I'm only gonna go and see a movie multiple times if I really was blown away by the first screening and want to see it again. Dunkirk would be a good example where I came out thinking I absolutely must watch it again immediately.

fluke

Saruhashi wrote: »

Loads and loads of little digs about how fans who like the OT but don't like this must be a bit thick. Building up the false dichotomy that TFA played it safe and TLJ took risks so if you don't like either you are a hypocrite.

It's mental to see people rejoicing that fans who didn't like the movie are being "owned".

This bit drives me a bit mad tbh. I liked, even loved, TFA and while Rogue 1 went down on a rewatch for me it's certainly still quite good. TFA certainly has it's issues bit I still enjoy it.

The Last Jedi is the hokiest attempt from Disney to shoehorn in it's own agenda at the risk of a cohesive narrative structure.

Shame on Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy in particular.

Drumpot

fluke wrote: »

This bit drives me a bit mad tbh. I liked, even loved, TFA and while Rogue 1 went down on a rewatch for me it's certainly still quite good. TFA certainly has it's issues bit I still enjoy it.

The Last Jedi is the hokiest attempt from Disney to shoehorn in it's own agenda at the risk of a cohesive narrative structure.

Shame on Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy in particular.

I enjoyed all newer Star Wars movies for different reasons. You don’t have to only like one or the other.

And TFA was very much like the originals and linear story and character wise. It brought back the feeling of the old , after the disasters of the prequels. That was popular because it brought back some feeling and fondness to the franchise.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

thats all fair. but the same galaxy where a tiny one man fighter with the aid of magic blows up a small planet sized space station.

I wouldn't sell the original short in that way. Luke had the help of Han and Chewie (no medal for Chewie though, racist Leia!) and Obi Wan and Leia.

All those no-name pilots who died to give Luke the shot at being the hero.

(Of course they even added to that with everyone in Rogue One dying to get the plans that showed the weakness that was built in by a secret rebel engineer.)

It's actually a wee bit sad to see people running down A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back in service of defending a movie that only just came out last week.

Maybe in 10 years we could look back on the legacy of the nine "Skywalker" movies and put each in it's rightful place but I have a suspicion that ANH and ESB will still be the top 2 for the vast majority of people.

bucketybuck

Saruhashi wrote: »

Apparently Cinemascore is a good gauge of audience reactions and The Last Jedi has an A rating there.

Personally I don't think its such a good gauge these days.

One thing that marks films like this and also a lot of the Marvel films is the stark difference between opinions while watching and opinions later down the line, when people have had time to reflect.

During the experience you could laugh at the funny bits or wow at the big explosions and be content that you are having fun, walk out of the cinema and say "yeah that was grand". But a day later, when you have had time to digest it and consider why anything happened or what it was all supposed to mean? Thats when the problems start, because films like this do not hold up at all.

Its pretty much the definition of a popcorn movie, good at the time of eating/watching but either forgettable afterwards or just plain bad for the digestion.

So cinemascore says people liked it? That doesn't surprise me at all. But I bet if they went back to those same people later they might get some very different responses.

B.A._Baracus

I will say one positive thing about Last Jedi and that it's make you think about it after the credits roll. Even if it is for all the wrong reasons.

Overall I give the movie a 5/10. Harsh I know. But while it does have its problems it's biggest sin was how they handled Luke.... Then they kill him off.

I know the movie is about the new cast (sure from Disney aspect you can get more of a run out of them than hamill whos in his 60s) but it's Luke skywalker. You can't just job him out like that :pac:

It's funny because one of the TFA writers said the problem they had was as soon as Luke was added into the story it changed everything. Luke being all powerful Jedi etc. So it made sense to make him the mcguffin. Show him at the end of it and set up the sequel.

... Then of course the last jedi happens. Boo.

Saruhashi

fluke wrote: »

This bit drives me a bit mad tbh. I liked, even loved, TFA and while Rogue 1 went down on a rewatch for me it's certainly still quite good. TFA certainly has it's issues bit I still enjoy it.

The Last Jedi is the hokiest attempt from Disney to shoehorn in it's own agenda at the risk of a cohesive narrative structure.

Shame on Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy in particular.

I wonder how Rogue One would have been received if it had been the first released. It seemed like folk were a bit bored by it after the high of TFA.

TFA really was more about the "essence" of Star Wars, I think. They just recaptured the magic and I think even with it's failings there was a "promise" that this was the first chapter in something incredible.

In hindsight, one week later, I feel like TLJ failed to deliver on that promise.

Did anyone ever watch the X-Files? I kinda feel like sometimes they would have an amazing "mythology" episode that drove the story forward and then you'd have a few "monster of the week" episodes that would bring everything to a slow crawl but MAYBE you'd learn a small snippet about Mulder or Scully.

That's kind of how I feel about TLJ. I'm looking to Episode IX now like it's going to carry on the "real" story as TLJ felt a bit too "standalone" for me.

We start the movie with a small band of good rebels (are they really "rebels" though? The state of the galaxy is not clear, is it?) on the run from the evil First Order. Then the movie asks "is good and evil an absolute thing". Then we end the movie with a slightly smaller band of good rebels on the run from the evil First Order.

Actually, I'm not bothered about Snoke or Reys parents because they were only mildly interesting questions. "What happens next" was a more interesting question and I thought the answers were a little bit lacking.

I was looking forward to seeing how Finn and Poe and Rey would develop but I feel like they didn't deliver that much.

Everyone kind of ends the movie in the same spot as they were at the beginning. Sure, the movie TELLS us that everyone is learning valuable lessons but I'm not sure that they are.

I think the narrative from the start of Ep 7 to the end of Ep 8 is only a few days? Like Rey goes from a nobody on Jakku to Maz's castle to Starkiller base to Luke's island to Snokes ship to a Jedi on Crait all in the space of a week or so?

If Episode IX jumps ahead by 10 or so years then I think you are left with a trilogy where Parts 1 & 2 take place at the same (ep 8 follows on immediately from the end of ep 7) time and are effectively just 1 part and then the final part takes place completely separately.

Like if Luke destroyed the Death Star and then they went immediately to Hoth and ran through the Empire Story and then have a jump of a few years to get to the beginning of Jedi. It feels "off" somehow but I can't place it...

Zubeneschamali

Falthyron wrote: »

forcing JJ to make something relatively new, or at least something that can't really copy Jedi, like he did with TFA and A New Hope.

He'll just copy A New Hope again.

Ren for Vader, Hux for Tarkin, Rey for Luke, Maz for ObiWan (she's the only one alive who "knows the force"), Poe for Han, BB-8 for R2.

Fin crashes about wild-eyed and does stupid "funny" stuff... so, in for Threepio, I suppose.

DrWu

Apologies if this has been posted already (feel free to delete post mods). Interesting piece about the discrepancy between critic score and audience score on Rotten tomatoes.


http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score

Drumpot

Saruhashi wrote: »

It's actually a wee bit sad to see people running down A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back in service of defending a movie that only just came out last week.

This comment is at the heart of some of the divisive discussions. I don't think people are "putting down the originals" to prop up the new movies. They are just highlighting the double standards being applied to the sacred originals.. Most people didnt over think things and let minor things go in the originals and just got absorbed in the universe.

Certain humour, certain aspects of the stories, certain dialogue, certain characters in new and originals are similar. But the originals are excused or brushed aside because they were original and setup the universe. People are desperate and happy to explain away any original movie moment that they wouldn't afford the same courtesy to the new ones. In short, if you applied the same relaxed, forgiving attitude that you gave to the originals you might actually allow yourself to enjoy it!

fluke

Saruhashi wrote: »

I wonder how Rogue One would have been received if it had been the first released. It seemed like folk were a bit bored by it after the high of TFA.

Everyone kind of ends the movie in the same spot as they were at the beginning. Sure, the movie TELLS us that everyone is learning valuable lessons but I'm not sure that they are.

Just on these - I think R1 is pretty bleak but watchable, and manages to veer off well into new story telling ways (the way a spin off should). Actually just on this...people keep saying TLJ had to change things up. The formula needed changing. I get that, but really there are only EP IV-VII that follow a path of their own. The prequels, as much as there are strands from the OT, are very much a different beast.. So yeah we are being told that things needed a shake up after four films that had a certain way of storytelling? This isn't like... the 22nd Bond movie...

In fairness probably the only seemingly decent character arc is that at of Poe's. He comes away maybe learning a bit more about small victories..

Saruhashi

DrWu wrote: »

Apologies if this has been posted already (feel free to delete post mods). Interesting piece about the discrepancy between critic score and audience score on Rotten tomatoes.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/20/the-curious-case-of-the-last-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score

I’ll submit that the motivation behind the review bombing of The Last Jedi is not solely motivated by opinions about quality and faithfulness to the franchise, but also as a protest to how Disney has recently attempted to create more diverse characters and also cast more diverse actors and actresses in their tentpole content, including Star Wars.

So basically the negative review score MIGHT be down to the movie being a bit crap but it's also probably about bigotry and sexism so the negative audience score is best ignored.

Did the same website give TLJ a glowing review? Of course they did!

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-review-the-star-wars-film-that-finally-lives-up-to

Brego888

Would really have liked to see Rey turn to the dark side. That would have been a proper wow moment and turned the series on its head.

py2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIY-PsHrj9A

pumpkin4life

5-day revenues

The Force Awakens : $325,438,146
The Last Jedi: $261,820,146

-19.6%


Movie is 20% down in terms of earnings on The Force Awakens in its first five days. Pretty big for a movie franchise like this like.

If it is so bad, I wonder what the half life effect will be. Guess we'll see.

Link is here.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/

Saruhashi

Drumpot wrote: »

This comment is at the heart of some of the divisive discussions. I don't think people are "putting down the originals" to prop up the new movies. They are just highlighting the double standards being applied to the sacred originals.. Most people didnt over think things and let minor things go in the originals and just got absorbed in the universe.

Certain humour, certain aspects of the stories, certain dialogue, certain characters in new and originals are similar. But the originals are excused or brushed aside because they were original and setup the universe. People are desperate and happy to explain away any original movie moment that they wouldn't afford the same courtesy to the new ones. In short, if you applied the same relaxed, forgiving attitude that you gave to the originals you might actually allow yourself to enjoy it!

It's not a double standard though.

Clearly folks won't be able to do this until the movie is available for streaming or on DVD or whatever but I reckon if you were to watch ANH or ESB and then immediately follow that with TLJ then you'd be able to see the drastic differences between these films.

What some people are calling a double standard I am seeing as taking an element of ANH or ESB and simplifying it and then taking a similar element in TLJ and simplifying that too. THEN making the comparison.

From my perspective the originals are pretty great. From my perspective TFA made a promise of something great to come. From my perspective TLJ failed to deliver on that promise and while it managed to defy expectations it certainly didn't live up to (my) expectations.

I'm feeling a very strange vibe from some people that goes along the lines of "you liked the OT but you don't like TLJ let me explain why you are either wrong or stupid or both".

The problem with these "explanations" are that they kind of take a point from the OT and remove it from context and then break it down to a simple description.

Example: "a tiny one man fighter with the aid of magic blows up a small planet sized space station"

Then the second problem is we perform the same procedure on an element from TLJ.

Example: "a lone x wing takes on a First Order dreadnought using small guns"

Then we put those side by side and we say "how can you think this is good but think that is bad". I always imagine it's said in the voice of one of those evangelical Americans who try to do a sneaky "gotcha" on atheists.

Pretty much since I said I don't like the movie, here and elsewhere, I have experienced so many of these attempts at a "gotcha". Like if I could just somehow be "caught out" I'd have to admit that TLJ is a great film.

Some of the tactics are a bit weird. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be a bit thick, sexist, dishonest, racist, not a "true" fan or just a hater OR maybe I just don't like the film.

DrWu

Went for a second time last night, totally open to some of the criticism that has been discussed here.

Overall, I enjoyed it even more than previously. The relentless pursuit of the resistance fleet, the emphasis not on victory but just on surviving, the relationship between Ren and Rey, the more nuanced themes, esp around power and notions of good and evil, etc. Loved all that.

I can understand people being upset about Luke's character but on second viewing I really felt the scene with Yoda explained and tied that up beautifully.

But... there were individual scenes that I felt were missteps (the milking scene, the steam iron, leia's scenes could have been executed better and some of the humour was a bit off). I would love someone to edit out those scenes (leia's scene we're stuck with) and see how the movie feels. I reckon it would make a huge difference.

So, as a whole I loved it even more, but I feel that it would have been improved by cutting out some small scenes.

Zubeneschamali

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Movie is 20% down in terms of earnings on The Force Awakens in its first five days. Pretty big for a movie franchise like this like.

Clearly going to top a billion worldwide, just like Rogue One. Disney will be quite happy.

david75

Hitlers reaction to the last Jedi is every single one of us regardless of POV

https://www.facebook.com/vadertraderstore/videos/2186005258080059/

david75

pumpkin4life wrote: »

5-day revenues

The Force Awakens : $325,438,146
The Last Jedi: $261,820,146

-19.6%


Movie is 20% down in terms of earnings on The Force Awakens in its first five days. Pretty big for a movie franchise like this like.

If it is so bad, I wonder what the half life effect will be. Guess we'll see.

Link is here.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/

It’s 5 day total internationally is over TFAs at this point of its release.
TLJ is now at $536,620,146 Million on it's 5th day of release internationallly.
Already half a billion and we’re yet to go holidays where it will make it’s real money. (Unless the sh!tstorm makes a dent and it doesn’t seem to be)

Saruhashi

Just for the fun of it I went back through the thread and found the first 5 reviews posted after the midnight showing.

Imagine these on the DVD box.

"Very disappointing"

"Thought that was phenomenal.. Sets up ep 9 very well.. Little bits in the middle could be changed, but overall can't fault large bits at all.. Easily 8/10, borderline 9"

"Two word review because I'm tired. Long, shíte."

"Oh my God it was brilliant. Loved every minute"

"Just back, really don't know what to think. Confused on parts but I was really tired. Defo need to see it again."

kerplun k

I finally got around to watching this yesterday evening. I really really liked it.
I didn't love it as much as TFA or RO, but that's only because the standard set by those two moves was so high.
There's no denying that TLJ has some iffy moments, I felt it really suffered just before the midway point and some scenes really had me worried, including flying Leia, Maz Kanata, Yoda, Laura Derns introduction as Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo, plus Rian Johnson kept hitting us with so many cartoonish characters, and at one point, I was thinking that this whole thing is just getting weird, but then it recovered in spectacular fashion. I went from hating Admiral Amilyn Holdo, and thinking she was so mind numbingly dump, to thinking she was a hero. It's a great moment which gives a valuable lesson about perception, and really develops the character of Poe Dameron. You don't need to be this big gung ho hero and in the face of ridicule and doubt, she stood firm, accepted the role of the bad guy for the greater purpose. It was such a good moment when she revealed Leia's plan, and then sacrificed herself to go down with the ship. I had a pang of guilt for hating her when I found out. Okay you could argue that she could have told Poe the plan all along, but it was high states, and need to know, the less people that knew about it, the better, and in hindsight, we and Poe trust Leia, and we should trust the counsel she elects to lead, after she can't. It was the logical to tell people as little people as possible.

Two other big moments I loved.
1.) Supreme Leader Snokes death
2.) Daisys parents being nobody.

The reason I loved these moments so such is because it throws a big f**k you to two years of stupid internet speculations. It seems these days, when something big is released, especially something that is ongoing, some plot devices, get picked apart and hyper analysed, they become a bigger talking point than the overall story, they become a novelty, every scenario is predicted, and when plot is revealed, the internet says, "see I told you so, how very predictable".

This is Johnson saying, "you think you know my movie?, guess what, you don't, you know jack sh1t"

Another thing I loved was Gleeson's performance. When I first seen him, I couldn't put my finger on it, he was hamming it up so bad, he was really spitting out his lines, over acting, and as the film progressed, it became clear he was self aware, and his character became intentionally hilarious, this is something else that really helped the film recover. Gleeson and Adam Driver have such good chemistry, it was really one of the highlights of the film for me.

Some of the scenes in the movie were spectacular, with the Daisys/Kylo Ren battle in Snokes chamber, and Admiral Amilyn Holdo suicide missile being standouts.

Luke's reveal at the end was also epic and done really well, completely unexpected. Because of what happened IRL to Carrie Fisher (Rip), I expected Luke and Leias fate to be reversed.

Overall assessment, good opening, dodgy middle, epic ending.

GO SEE IT!!!!

Drumpot

Saruhashi wrote: »

It's not a double standard though.

Clearly folks won't be able to do this until the movie is available for streaming or on DVD or whatever but I reckon if you were to watch ANH or ESB and then immediately follow that with TLJ then you'd be able to see the drastic differences between these films.

What some people are calling a double standard I am seeing as taking an element of ANH or ESB and simplifying it and then taking a similar element in TLJ and simplifying that too. THEN making the comparison.

From my perspective the originals are pretty great. From my perspective TFA made a promise of something great to come. From my perspective TLJ failed to deliver on that promise and while it managed to defy expectations it certainly didn't live up to (my) expectations.

I'm feeling a very strange vibe from some people that goes along the lines of "you liked the OT but you don't like TLJ let me explain why you are either wrong or stupid or both".

The problem with these "explanations" are that they kind of take a point from the OT and remove it from context and then break it down to a simple description.

Example: "a tiny one man fighter with the aid of magic blows up a small planet sized space station"

Then the second problem is we perform the same procedure on an element from TLJ.

Example: "a lone x wing takes on a First Order dreadnought using small guns"

Then we put those side by side and we say "how can you think this is good but think that is bad". I always imagine it's said in the voice of one of those evangelical Americans who try to do a sneaky "gotcha" on atheists.

Pretty much since I said I don't like the movie, here and elsewhere, I have experienced so many of these attempts at a "gotcha". Like if I could just somehow be "caught out" I'd have to admit that TLJ is a great film.

Some of the tactics are a bit weird. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be a bit thick, sexist, dishonest, racist, not a "true" fan or just a hater OR maybe I just don't like the film.

Its nothin to do with catching people out with a “gotcha”, it’s about challenging people’s specific comments that appear contradictory. There is nothing wrong with simply not enjoying the direction they are taking.

You feel many things about the movie and it’s more on the negative. That’s perfectly correct that you have not enjoyed it for whatever personal reason. Nobody is trying to say you are wrong or that you should love the movie. I said it that I Think of it like football supporters of the same team arguing about their team or players performance or ability. It’s divisive not because one side is right or wrong but because passions lead to divisions and different interpretations of the same things.

I think the originals were original, more charming and had more likable characters.

Osmosis Jones

Also with everyone bringing up the point that Mark didn't like the direction they went with Luke, didn't Harrison Ford want Han dead since Empire?

B.A._Baracus

Reading some interesting things regarding episode 9 and what can it do as it stands.

- Snoke is dead so no big bad evil type anymore. Sure, Kylo Ren can be developed into that. But that would make the whole 'going to the lightside ' in the end a bit tricky should they choose. Vader went good against the much bigger evil that was The emperor. Who was already established going into ROTJ.
- Luke being dead also means no big light sabre dual out of him anymore. A lot of fans wanted to see Luke take on Snoke. Didn't happen so no chance now.
- Sadly Carrie Fisher passed on so that's her character and original plans scrapped.
- Laura Dern's character also died. So it is not like she can take up the mantle as resistance leader.
- Captain Phasma also died so that's the end of her and Finn storyline. Least they included a 'blowoff' to their storyline. Albeit short and imo it was meh how they did it.
- All signs pointing towards the resistance rebuilding and taking down the first order. As people have stated that's already happened with a new hope and rogue one. Who wants to see that again.

So to sum it up pretty much so many characters got killed off so Disney has more of a canvas (or let's be honest setting up their plan) for episode 9. A clean slate of sorts.

Tony EH

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Clearly going to top a billion worldwide, just like Rogue One. Disney will be quite happy.

Pointing to the BO for a Star Wars movies is a bit silly.

Star Wars is a licence to print money and it has a built in audience, some of who will go to the film more than once, even if they're meh about it on the first viewing! Even if they flat don't like bloody thing!

'The Last Jedi' could have been 2 hours of Rey and Luke in Kerry and it would still have made a shitload. Actually, come to think of it, that might have been a better film. :pac:

In any case, Disney bought this thing because they knew that no matter what was put on the screen, it would make it money back and then some.

So, BO is always going to be good.

But, it isn't and never has been any kind of indicator of how good a film is.

Zubeneschamali

Tony EH wrote: »

So, BO is always going to be good.

But, it isn't and never has been any kind of indicator of how good a film is.

I quite agree - but equally saying the BO is 20% down on TFA after 5 days is neither here not there.

I also would assume that eventually, if Disney make enough stinkers, the shine will rub off and maybe Star Wars Episode XV: Return on Investment will flop.

Tony EH

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I quite agree - but equally saying the BO is 20% down on TFA after 5 days is neither here not there.

I also would assume that eventually, if Disney make enough stinkers, the shine will rub off and maybe Star Wars Episode XV: Return on Investment will flop.

It would have to be truly dreadful though. a couple of hours of Yoda doing a hypnotoad impression...

...and even then, you'd have people saying is was taking Star Wars in a "new direction".

Shakey_jake

DrWu wrote: »

(the milking scene, the steam iron, leia's scenes could have been executed better and some of the humour was a bit off)

Loved all those scenes

Tony EH

DrWu wrote: »

But... there were individual scenes that I felt were missteps (the milking scene, the steam iron, leia's scenes could have been executed better and some of the humour was a bit off).

They shouldn't have been executed at all. They were terrible. although I really don't care about the milking scene. It still could just been played straight.

DrWu wrote: »

I would love someone to edit out those scenes (leia's scene we're stuck with) and see how the movie feels. I reckon it would make a huge difference.

It'll happen in the Spring when the first Blu is released. The fanfixer crowd are already all over what they'd change/cut.

On the Leia thing, that can easily be chopped. The bridge gets attacked. Cut away to people running to the bridge. Next shot, Leia on the gurney going to sick bay. No Mary Poppins and no WTF?

It's still incredible that that made to script and then to filming.

Did nobody at Lucasfilm/Disney stand up and say "that'll look absolute shite and we'll be slated for it left, right and centre?" Nobody?