Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

If you watch a movie and question the casting decisions every time a non-white person shows up on screen then you've got bigger issues than not liking the new Star Wars movie.

The irony is these guys don’t realise the entire empire is based out of Nazi ideology and symbolism.

It’s completely lost on them yet they claim to be the only true Star Wars fans.

Waaaaaaaaay over their heads that point has gone.


They’re almost entirely white male americans doing this. That tells you all you need to know really.

Saruhashi

Sad Professor wrote: »

The ‘Alt-Right’ Claims Credit For ‘Last Jedi’ Backlash

Well, this is Star Wars in 2017, I guess.

What an absolute sh*t show.

Maybe they should make America wait a week or two before they get the next release. Let the rest of the world actually enjoy discussion about the movie before it gets injected with this poison.

david75

pixelburp wrote: »

Precisely: it was crazy to think that EIGHT movies into Star Wars and we've only just got our first 'ordinary' person as a main character. She desperately needed better writing next time around though, but coasted by on charisma and energy.

And yes, the abuse being sent her way is ludicrous; for all the cries of 'PC' this & that, I've never once seen a single, coherent reason why this is a bad thing. As in an actual quantifiable explanation why some token diversity - however cynical or deliberate it might be - in a fictional drama affects the story or consumer in a negative fashion. Just seems like a knee-jerk reaction over something different from the norm.

One thing I noticed. Her writing is actually pretty great.

Her line about not killing what you hate but protecting what you love?

I think I’m the only one noticed but it’s a turn on Yeates Irish airman foresees his death (and she almost dies in a plane)

‘Those I fight I do not hate, those I guard I do not love’

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

I really liked Rose just for being an ordinary person caught up in the madness around her. It’s exactly what happens to Luke in a way and Finn too.

It’s appallihg the abuse and vitriol the actress is being sent for it. Really disgusting.

Its horrendous. That being said I think we would have had a tighter movie if Poe had teamed up Finn on Canto bright instead of Rose. I get that they were using her to give voice to the every(wo)man in an effort to make Star Wars more egalitarian, the idea that while the rich corporations make money from war it's the little people that suffer, but it's nothing that couldn't have been espoused by Poe who for all we now comes from similarly humble beginning as Rose. It would be nice to have seen them earn the bromance they apparently are meant have despite only sharing a handful of scenes .

Saruhashi

pixelburp wrote: »

And yes, the abuse being sent her way is ludicrous; for all the cries of 'PC' this & that, I've never once seen a single, coherent reason why this is a bad thing. As in an actual quantifiable explanation why some token diversity - however cynical or deliberate it might be - in a fictional drama affects the story or consumer in a negative fashion. Just seems like a knee-jerk reaction over something different from the norm.

I'm not sure how much of it is genuine knee-jerk reaction and how much of it is Internet trolls knowing exactly how to push people's buttons.

The "outrage" over Rey and Finn in TFA seemed to come from no-name internet accounts with very few followers. Until it was basically signal boosted by idiot outlets like Huffington Post trying to get clicks for money.

Its such a toxic conversation and I don't understand why they don't ignore it.

If it's a big name making the anti-diversity points then name and shame and dismantle their arguments. Don't give a voice to anonymous and obvious wind-up merchants because that just encourages more of this behaviour.

Saruhashi

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Its horrendous. That being said I think we would have had a tighter movie if Poe had teamed up Finn on Canto bright instead of Rose.

Poe who for all we now comes from similarly humble beginning as Rose. It would be nice to have seen them earn the bromance they apparently are meant have despite only sharing a handful of scenes .

Can you imagine? The movie would have gone up in my estimation if they had been bold enough to put Finn and Poe together.

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

I'm not sure how much of it is genuine knee-jerk reaction and how much of it is Internet trolls knowing exactly how to push people's buttons.

The "outrage" over Rey and Finn in TFA seemed to come from no-name internet accounts with very few followers. Until it was basically signal boosted by idiot outlets like Huffington Post trying to get clicks for money.

Its such a toxic conversation and I don't understand why they don't ignore it.

If it's a big name making the anti-diversity points then name and shame and dismantle their arguments. Don't give a voice to anonymous and obvious wind-up merchants because that just encourages more of this behaviour.

So hopefully you realise now it’s those same people admitting they’re actively troll bombing RT to affect TLJs score.

Goodshape

I didn't like Rose at all, but it was a symptom of being annoyed at that whole storyline. She herself could have been anybody.

tony1kenobi

david75 wrote:

They’re almost entirely white male americans doing this. That tells you all you need to know really.

Dude you got a Pearl Jam song in to a Star Wars post. You have peaked.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

So hopefully you realise now it’s those same people admitting they’re actively troll bombing RT to affect TLJs score.

You can take claims by the Alt-Right at face value if you want but I am personally taking their claims that they influenced the scores with a massive pinch of salt.

It's in their interests to claim credit for it. Makes them look powerful.

As far as I've seen here, elsewhere online and in real life there is a lot of divided opinion on the movie.

50-60% seems about right to me.

david75

tony1kenobi wrote: »

Dude you got a Pearl Jam song in to a Star Wars post. You have peaked.

Do no wrong. So clean cut. Dirties his hands it comes right off.

Ps are you stalking me?

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

You can take claims by the Alt-Right at face value if you want but I am personally taking their claims that they influenced the scores with a massive pinch of salt.

It's in their interests to claim credit for it. Makes them look powerful.

As far as I've seen here, elsewhere online and in real life there is a lot of divided opinion on the movie.

50-60% seems about right to me.

I’d agree except for several large media outlets (the independent in the UK, collider video most notably) with articles and videos about the abnormally weird acitivity in the RT score in particular and how it’s at odds with every other aggregators result on TLJ

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

I’d agree except for several large media outlets (the independent in the UK, collider video most notably) with articles and videos about the abnormally weird acitivity in the RT score in particular and how it’s at odds with every other aggregators result on TLJ

Well how many % points do you think they are dragging it down by? 10? 20? 40?

Keep in mind that the actual number of reviews is not that unusual.

At best they could have brought it down from 65 to 55. Maybe.

conorhal

david75 wrote: »

I’d agree except for several large media outlets (the independent in the UK, collider video most notably) with articles and videos about the abnormally weird acitivity in the RT score in particular and how it’s at odds with every other aggregators result on TLJ

Which feels a bit like the kind of spinning and damage control that Sony did in the wake of the whole Ghostbusters 2016 $h1tshow. They tried to spin the narrative to suggest the negativity had nothing to do with how poor the movie was or how it crapped on the original, nope, if you hated the movie you were probably a misogynist. A claim that was statistically proven to be false.
Bot reviews are clickbaiting, and not significant. It's pretty clear even from this thread that opinion is pretty divided on the film in a manner that doesn't seem inconsistent with the audience scores. I don't think it's all that hard to believe a third of the audience was at best ambivalent towards TLJ.
The suggestion that the alt right are driving negative reviews is daft, I'm just surprised that Disney haven't blamed Russian hackers yet!

Venom

david75 wrote: »

I’d agree except for several large media outlets (the independent in the UK, collider video most notably) with articles and videos about the abnormally weird acitivity in the RT score in particular and how it’s at odds with every other aggregators result on TLJ

But it's not just RT showing a low score from non critics.

Rotten Tomatoes user rating = 54%
Metacritic user rating = 4.8 out of ten

Take a look at most forums on the net discussing this movie and you see a very Marmite type vibe of those who love the movie or hate it. Is this all down to internet trolls as well? Mark Hamill himself has gone on record as not being happy with the direction the movie went in.

I saw it last night and thought it was really bad and that a 5 out of 10 rating is being more than fair.

server down

conorhal wrote: »

Which feels a bit like the kind of spinning and damage control that Sony did in the wake of the whole Ghostbusters 2016 $h1tshow. They tried to spin the narrative to suggest the negativity had nothing to do with how poor the movie was or how it crapped on the original, nope, if you hated the movie you were probably a misogynist. A claim that was statistically proven to be false.
Bot reviews are clickbaiting, and not significant. It's pretty clear even from this thread that opinion is pretty divided on the film in a manner that doesn't seem inconsistent with the audience scores. I don't think it's all that hard to believe a third of the audience was at best ambivalent towards TLJ.
The suggestion that the alt right are driving negative reviews is daft, I'm just surprised that Disney haven't blamed Russian hackers yet!

This thread is not really that representative either.

tony1kenobi

david75 wrote:

Do no wrong. So clean cut. Dirties his hands it comes right off.

david75 wrote:

Ps are you stalking me?

Nope. Just like Star Wars and Pearl Jam.

johnny_ultimate

Went to see it again today: pretty sure it's the only time I've seen a film in the cinema twice since Goodbye to Language (although this isn't quite the formally demanding puzzle box that is JLG's late masterpiece ). Couldn't shake off the film for whatever reason, after all the reading and debate, so decided to give it a second go when it wasn't midnight.

I was pretty sure I liked the film a lot first around, but now I'm confident I love it. For me, it benefited from a rewatch as I was able to more wholeheartedly admire how well Johnson has composed the thing. There's a coherency to it I didn't fully grasp first time around - things like how three words from the opening crawl ('spark of hope') are frequently repeated before finding its visual manifestation in the film's final seconds; or how Poe has a surprisingly effective arc (his decision to pull away during the final battle is a neat if unsubtle bit of character development that was lost among the chaos first time around). Actually the whole salt planet stuff worked better this time around - even if the film does peak before it, there's lots of cool character & story beats later on. And the scene where Luke and Leia meet has an extra bit of oomph second time around - there's a lovely bit of subtle acting from Fischer when she appears to realise Luke is projecting. Actually, it'd have been nice if that moment was more explicit and didn't take until a second viewing to spot.

One scene I was iffy about first time around was the Yoda one: this time it was oddly affecting. Two old friends talking about rejecting the 'sacred texts' and looking forward - the film's metatextual, analytical nature rising from 'subtext' to a more surface text. I can see why some are cynical about the film's willingness to disregard the past, in a franchise Disney seem eager to cash in on until the end of the time - that's a fair reading. But I read something more personal in it: a filmmaker acknowledging a fondness for the past while urging a new generation of directors & audience to look beyond it. The film is purposely cruel with its dismissal of Star Wars lore & rules at first, but I think by the end it has found more of a 'balance' - echoing, of course, what the characters go through here.

The jarring moments and gags many have fairly criticised were genuinely less obvious this time around - they are fewer & briefer than I recalled, and only a few bothered me first time around anyway. Instead, what stood out were the plethora of cool little moments that add colour or energy. The ironing board gag in particular But some of the things that are explored in Canto Bight, for example, reflecting a bit on class division in the Star Wars universe: these aren't 'necessary', nor are they in any way complex (probably best sticking with JLG for that), but they add essential flavour.

One of the problems with Lucas' style was there was always something... rigid about it. There's a sterility and dispassionate style to the filmmaking, most obvious in the prequels. Kershner and Abrams didn't have the same problem, and were more dynamic directors. But Johnson is obviously a cut above either again. He has the capacity to portray the weight of moments in an extra visceral way, and not just in the big showstopping moments: say the way Poe steers the X-Wing; the way Kylo's ship roars past the Resistance ship's bridge; the moments in the Canto Bight chase when they rush through a river of lanterns. It's a frantic film chock full of story, but Johnson often finds the room to dwell on a reaction shot that adds additional weight to what's happening.

I feel the need to stress we're not looking at some piece of great auteur cinema here: it's mostly a director working just the right amount of miracles in a rigid big studio blockbuster. But taken on its own terms, I kinda adore The Last Jedi, and really wish more films of this scale had the same self-awareness, sense of adventure, or even just thought put into them.

david75

server down wrote: »

This thread is not really that representative either.

And on the forums I am on and like with anything people are going to be way more vocal and engage if they don’t like it more than those that had a good time and enjoyed it.

It’s all hot air both sides at the end of the day. Star Wars will make Disney their money and make more films and we will all still go see them and have the same different takes on how much we enjoy them.

Zubeneschamali

Well, not necessarily, I never saw revenge of the Sith or Prometheus or batman v superman at the cinema. May skip IX if early vibe is bad

david75

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Well, not necessarily, I never saw revenge of the Sith or Prometheus or batman v superman at the cinema. May skip IX if early vibe is bad

That I just don’t get. Some of the greatest films ever made were slated by critics and audiences upon release and later emerged to be seen as classics. Screw what anyone else thinks I wouldn’t let myself be lead at all. Go and see it make up my own mind and enjoy it or not for myself. If I don’t enjoy something I don’t spend weeks on forums running it down. Don’t see the point by in that other than feeding some insecurity or something weirder. If you love it though celebrate it and hopefully(feeding a similar weird insecurity) find a forum to kick around about what you liked.

TerrorFirmer

Being pretty poor didn't stop the prequels cleaning up at the BO either. Revenge of the Sith made nearly 900 million, and by that point Lucas had given us a very disappointing Ep I, and a downright bad Ep 2.

I have my issues with TFA and TLJ but they're nowhere near as fatally flawed as the prequels and that never held those back either. I can see why audiences (and even alot of critics) strongly liked ROTS though, despite the clunky, amateur script and terrible performances, it has some really great action sequences. And considering TLJ is a much better film technically to boot, I'm entirely fine with critics very much liking it, and general audiences the same. It makes sense.

I'm particularly glad The Last Jedi has that iconic throne room confrontation going for it though, TFA did everything well enough but delivered pretty much zero stand-out scenes that people will remember long after the trilogy concludes. TLJ sorely needed one and it delivered big time with that, and to a lesser extent but equally as memorable, the lightspeed scene.

Some of the best moments in the extended franchise are Duel of the Fates and Anakin vs. Obi Wan (at least the first bit of it - ignoring the second half and scripting of same) - both, I think, largely because they're compounded by some of John Williams absolute best work which add immensely to it. Watching either scene without music drains them entirely.

Interest to see in the new trilogy that they've abandoned the agile ballet style duelling of the prequel trilogy and embraced the more classical take on it, where the weapons are given a lot more weight and as a result they not just look radically different, but sound different also. I think I prefer it that way, though I do love some of the battles in the prequel trilogy all the same.

What do people think of the music thus far? I find the soundtrack very good, but nothing resonates with me remotely as much as with the OT or even the prequels (which on occassion, I think is nearly on-par with the OT, particularly the Phantom Menance)

david75

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Being pretty poor didn't stop the prequels cleaning up at the BO either. Revenge of the Sith made nearly 900 million, and by that point Lucas had given us a very disappointing Ep I, and a downright bad Ep 2.

I have my issues with TFA and TLJ but they're nowhere near as fatally flawed as the prequels and that never held those back either. I can see why audiences (and even alot of critics) strongly liked ROTS though, despite the clunky, amateur script and terrible performances, it has some really great action sequences. And considering TLJ is a much better film technically to boot, I'm entirely fine with critics very much liking it, and general audiences the same. It makes sense.

I'm particularly glad The Last Jedi has that iconic throne room confrontation going for it though, TFA did everything well enough but delivered pretty much zero stand-out scenes that people will remember long after the trilogy concludes. TLJ sorely needed one and it delivered big time with that, and to a lesser extent but equally as memorable, the lightspeed scene.

Some of the best moments in the extended franchise are Duel of the Fates and Anakin vs. Obi Wan (at least the first bit of it - ignoring the second half and scripting of same) - both, I think, largely because they're compounded by some of John Williams absolute best work which add immensely to it. Watching either scene without music drains them entirely.

Interest to see in the new trilogy that they've abandoned the agile ballet style duelling of the prequel trilogy and embraced the more classical take on it, where the weapons are given a lot more weight and as a result they not just look radically different, but sound different also. I think I prefer it that way, though I do love some of the battles in the prequel trilogy all the same.

What do people think of the music thus far? I find the soundtrack very good, but nothing resonates with me remotely as much as with the OT or even the prequels (which on occassion, I think is nearly on-par with the OT, particularly the Phantom Menance)

ROTS always gets a pass for bein best of the three but it should really be seen as the biggest let down as it has the most potential arriving to the heart of the matter and Anakins turn to the dark. In anyone else’s hands it could have been a film for the ages. But it is better than the other two by a long way so we have to just accept it. And it’s a pretty good film either way at the end.


The score on TLJ is far more inventive and engaging than TFA. The running themes are developed even further

Eg Kylo flying around leias ship and she senses Him and he senses her, it’s playing Han and leias theme, which we know, but it’s being played in a minor chord. Foreshadowing what’s about to happen.
Luke’s theme at the binary sunset. Just the biggest most perfect gut punch. Of course that twin sunset would happen. And to that tune. Amazing. TLJ has nothing but call backs to the original themes but also elements of the Indy soundtrack and the harry potter soundtrack here and there.
Just brilliant. John Williams is god. Just wish he was on board for the utterly forgettable rogue one and it’s even more forgettable soundtrack

McDermotX

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

............

What do people think of the music thus far? I find the soundtrack very good, but nothing resonates with me remotely as much as with the OT or even the prequels (which on occassion, I think is nearly on-par with the OT, particularly the Phantom Menance)

Interesting point.......if I'm honest, only a few of the tracks have really stuck with me, primarily from TFA obviously, such as The Jedi Steps and Rey's Theme, and their re-appearance in TLJ are not surprising. Some of The Resistance stuff is OK, but large parts of the soundtracks to both seem a little serviceable as opposed to outstanding, especially in Williams' hugely impressive record.

Perhaps it's purely a time thing, and the new trilogy will in time leave a better impression, but there's certainly being nothing to approach the likes of Williams' original work, though the re-use of some of his classic themes is more than welcome.

david75

I would have said more than 8 but anyways

8 Times 'The Last Jedi' Nods to the Classic 'Star Wars' Trilogy


https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/8-star-wars-jedi-nods-to-trilogy.htm

Tony EH

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Idk how people can say TFA is a lazy remake but Rogue One is a new and original story when everything that happens in that movie is already known to have happened before the movie was made. Also the characters are so ridiculously forgettable.

This doesn't even make sense.

'The Force Awakens' pretty much carries the same story beats as 'Star Wars'. Everybody agrees that it was a soft reboot.

'Rogue One' was entirely its own film. If it shares simularities with 'Star Wars', it's because it's set in same bloody era, and ends two minutes before 'Star Wars' begins.

Drumpot

Any chance that Kylo didn’t kill Leia because he was testing to see if he could keep things from Snoke? Maybe that wasn’t the reason he didn’t kill her but shouldn’t “all knowing” Snoke known he hesitated?

david75

Drumpot wrote: »

Any chance that Kylo didn’t kill Leia because he was testing to see if he could keep things from Snoke? Maybe that wasn’t the reason he didn’t kill her but shouldn’t “all knowing” Snoke known he hesitated?

Watch it again closely.
He doesn’t shoot on Leia. Then his two wingmen shoot on her.
He immediately bumps the ship on the right into an oncoming blaster shot and it gets blown up.

Still cares about mamma no matter what.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

This doesn't even make sense.

'The Force Awakens' pretty much carries the same story beats as 'Star Wars'. Everybody agrees that it was a soft reboot.

'Rogue One' was entirely its own film. If it shares simularities with 'Star Wars', it's because it's set in same bloody era, and ends two minutes before 'Star Wars' begins.

And everyone knows rogue one is an ill begotten whelp of one sentence in the opening crawl of Star Wars. It’s in no way entirely it’s own film. It depends entirely on a new hope and exists outside of any necessity like an unwanted child and it’s already being totally forgotten and lost in the midst of the new films and will further disappear once Solo arrives.

Dev1234

Just saw it this eve. Thinking back, a lot of it was a patch work quilt of the original trilogy. Grumpy, reclusive jedi not willing to join the fight (obi wan), AT-AT walkers attacking a rebel base (Hoth in Empire), Ray trying to convince Kylo Ren that there was still good in him in the elevator before going in to the room with Snoke and the red guards (Luke to his oul fella on the way up to the emperor in Return) to name but a few. Chewie should have been vengeful. Not sure what Finn is at, or Rose. Not expecting much for the next one. Rouge One was better