Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm quite fascinated by how easily people seem to think this is any sort of good example of character, never mind complexity. Maybe for soap operas and kids comics of the past. For a start he is daftly inconsistent from scene to scene. Secondly the character has no choice over his path. He's just "evil" out of the box. The script and the actor heavy-handedly pushes this point with every gurn and grimace and tantrum. Going for the obvious cursed by destiny but may be redeemed because of his internal conflict angle(QV he ran his da through, but can't pull the trigger on his ma). Rey is similarly born not made, blessed by destiny but may waver before resolution, though at least Ridley doesn't chew the scenery.

AKA storytelling that has been around and honed since the days of Babylon. The Epic of Gilgamesh has it and it's over 4000 years old.

Indeed. If one can make a better hash of the present and future in the telling. I'm seeing little evidence of that in this film, more a case of kill the past(for good marketing reasons) and for the sake of it. It even killed what we got from TFA.

I caught it again so Disney got my beer tokens and to see if it resonated more second time around. Like I said before it pushes some buttons and I have buttons that can be pushed and that's cool. Some scenes worked better the second time around. The throne room for a start. As a standalone scene anyway. Though I thought Kylo's fighting choreography was a bit leaden in spots. Ridley felt more "real". That these two greatest force users alive both nearly get done in by non force users still jarred. Del Toro was watchable as ever even with the script he had. Though the casino scene was jarring and could be snipped. I'd think similar of the whole side story TBH. Felt like we have to get the Finn dude screen time and spark up a love story angle and deal with the (sadly)loose end that was Phasma(such a bloody waste of a character IMHO and not just in TLJ).

The starship chase seemed even dafter a plot idea second time around(ditto for the opening bombing run). The hyperspace suicide run was fantastic though. Standout image sequence for me. Great cinema. Mind you Dern's character I could easily have done without. Though she is the only woman character that wasn't shown as "perfect" and "invincible", so there's that. Though they weren't to know of poor Carrie's end, it would have been the ideal scene for her to go out on. Princess Leia says fcuk you empire!

Luke on the Skelligs? Hamill and Ridley played it well, but again as a standalone scene not quite in the SW universe but wearing all the familiar clothes of it. Which would be my overarching feeling on this and TFA, especially this. Yoda was inexplicable in his performance and actions. Playing the fool for laughs. Which he only did once before in his very first appearance and for good reasons. He was serious business after that. More of the "burn the past" while pushing nostalgia for the sake of it. Luke with the breastfeeding and fishing wasn't as bad for me as some seem to feel. Initially I thought, hang on, maybe he's doing a first appearance Yoda to Rey's Luke. Playing the cranky old fool to gauge her reaction and worthiness as an apprentice. That would have made more sense and the story could have still had him gone by the end, but nope. Luke had to be the non hero with feet of clay to make way for the new. Burn the past Luke Skywalker.

The Leia superwoman bit was beyond embarrassing.

The removal of Snoke was daft from a story basis. Oh sure it pushed the easily pushed buttons when he got offed, but another utterly wasted pointless character like Phasma. No backstory, no reasons given for who he is, what he came from, how he ended up creating a new empire, or how he's about the most powerful force user we've seen so far, or how he influenced Kylo. Nope, let's throwaway all of that for a button pushing exercise for the popcorn rows. It's really bloody awful storytelling. More like a level in a video game to be won and onto the next.

TL;DR? For me it was a badly written, simplistic, button pushing retcon of the SW universe going forward.

It looked bloody brilliant though. Hats off to the FX and cinematographer guys and gals on that score. The soundtrack was better too.

Pretty much agree with all of that, except for Kylo Ren. I think Driver is pretty good in his role, probably the best of this new crop of Star Wars "characters". Ren himself is an interesting take, but I feel he's been badly let down by crap writing and a mission to put too much on the screen.

This sequel trilogy has been quite a strange affair so far. It certainly has some high moments, but it swamped by incredibly jarring issues, poor story telling, basic logic fails and (what I feel to be) a basic lack of care with regards to world building. Something that Lucas was a real pro at.

And, yes, it would have been excellent to see Leia go out with the hyperspace missle run. She's always been such a spunky bitch, it's easilly imagined that she'd do that. I know nothing about Fisher's personality, but I imagine that she'd have gotten a kick out of that.

With all the guff about Rey supposedly being and "empowering" (such a dumb term) character for girls, even though she's A. barely a character and B. such a fanfic cypher, I feel that the character of Leia - as I remember her (telling walking carpets to get out of her way cos she has an important mission to fulfill) - is a far more realistic person to embody that want. She's also another OT character that's been let down by this sequel trilogy (super Leia...there's just words) and I'm at a loss as to how they're going to kill her off in IX. I can't imagine that it will be any good either and will probably always feel that they'd missed a glorious opportunity for a great cinematic sendoff.

Wibbs

david75 wrote: »

I don’t really agree about kylo. He’s definitely not out of the box villain.

That's pretty much exactly how he's portrayed and written. The dark side "naturally arises" and the light to meet it. He's destined to be bad. Luke is tempted to murder his own nephew on this point. Luke Skywalker. Yeah, like that's not out of character at all.. Never mind Kylo is able to force blast Luke Skywalker and kill most of his students, just cos. Then again the only actual fight Luke has in this flic is with Mary Rey Sue. With sticks. And she beats him. Jedi Master, son of the strongest force dude ever, who he finally bested, with decades of time under his Jedi belt, including training the next lot Luke bloody Skywalker beaten by someone who just found out the force was real a wet week ago.

Like I said earlier, imagine if you will The Empire Strikes Back written this way... *harp plays, screen wobbles* ... Luke shows up to bog world to find Yoda, the Jedi master. Yoda is immediately gobsmacked by Luke's natural power and skills with the force and he demonstrates this power to Yoda. Luke berates Yoda at every turn. Then they fight and Luke beats Yoda. The reaction to that would have been a universal WTF? Yet this is what happens here.

imagine if you will A New Hope written this way... *harp plays, screen wobbles* Luke is this cool dude on a desert planet. Fighting the fight. Goes looking for Ben, gets set upon and beats the hell out of the Tusken dude. Ben is immediately impressed with Luke and what he can do. Han gives Luke the controls of the Falcon. Luke gets to the Death Star and faces Vader and after an initial struggle beats the crap out of him with a light sabre he only picked up a few days previously. Again the reaction to that would have been a universal WTF? Yet...

He’s conflicted and switching mor to the light as he gets to know rey more throughout the film. She can sense that too. He’s talking to her the whole time as Ben Solo. Not kylo ren. And that’s the part she’s managing to bring out of him.

As I said they're going for the destiny can be broken stuff, but it's foreshadowed with all the subtlety of a house brick, in nearly every single scene. His confliction comes across as inconsistency and awkward with it.

He’s far more complex and interesting than any villain we’ve had in Star Wars. This is how we should have gotten Anakin in the ugly rot of turning to Vader.

The story of Anakin was woefully fumbled by the execution, but the underlying story at least was there and made sense and was more subtle and more realistic. Even though we all knew the outcome, if we hadn't and it was a new trilogy set in that universe, even with Lucas' generally woeful execution it was very much up in the air which way he would turn right before he causes Samuel L to take an unscheduled walk in the clouds. In the originals Vader could have gone either way too, right up to the finish line. We know how Kylo will go. Near guaranteed redemption by Mary Rey Sue(likely with more shirt off bits). The pretence of complexity, signalling complexity and acting ticks do not make actual complexity.

Never mind that Snoke was angling up to be something more, but nope, kill him off with zero backstory or explanation for the gnarliest dark side type we've ever seen. Now we're left with a perpetual teenager telegraphing exposition with every grimace. This is the "storytelling" of a Mexican soap opera, or a video game.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Pretty much agree with all of that, except for Kylo Ren. I think Driver is pretty good in his role, probably the best of this new crop of Star Wars "characters". Ren himself is an interesting take, but I feel he's been badly let down by crap writing and a mission to put too much on the screen.

This sequel trilogy has been quite a strange affair so far. It certainly has some high moments, but it swamped by incredibly jarring issues, poor story telling, basic logic fails and (what I feel to be) a basic lack of care with regards to world building. Something that Lucas was a real pro at.

And, yes, it would have been excellent to see Leia go out with the hyperspace missle run. She's always been such a spunky bitch, it's easilly imagined that she'd do that. I know nothing about Fisher's personality, but I imagine that she'd have gotten a kick out of that.

With all the guff about Rey supposedly being and "empowering" (such a dumb term) character for girls, even though she's A. barely a character and B. such a fanfic cypher, I feel that the character of Leia - as I remember her (telling walking carpets to get out of her way cos she has an important mission to fulfill) - is a far more realistic person to embody that want. She's also another OT character that's been let down by this sequel trilogy (super Leia...there's just words) and I'm at a loss as to how they're going to kill her off in IX. I can't imagine that it will be any good either and will probably always feel that they'd missed a glorious opportunity for a great cinematic sendoff.

TLJ was farewell to Leia. Her passing will be mentioned in the crawl of 9 as a motivator for the rebellion to grow or it’ll be mentioned in passing on screen I think. It’s the only road open to them.

pixelburp

I'd say it's odds on the very first line of the IX opening crawl will read "General Leia has died." If Disney are sticking to their promise they won't recreate her digitally, the only option is to make her death the first steps towards some fork of reaction by the Resistance.

pumpkin4life

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd say it's odds on the very first line of the IX opening crawl will read "General Leia has died." If Disney are sticking to their promise they won't recreate her digitally, the only option is to make her death the first steps towards some fork of reaction by the Resistance.

david75

pumpkin4life wrote: »

You will be the same guy complaining if they CGI her into it or worse, recast her.
Don’t even pretend you won’t be 😂

Venom

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd say it's odds on the very first line of the IX opening crawl will read "General Leia has died." If Disney are sticking to their promise they won't recreate her digitally, the only option is to make her death the first steps towards some fork of reaction by the Resistance.

Didn't Disney also promise to do something with Phasma and that she wouldn't just be another Bobafett? She got 2 minutes of screentime in TLJ, got taken out by Finn, the worst Stormtrooper ever and a total coward and has been an absolute farce of a character who is nothing more than a cool suit of armor.

Disney promises ain't worth ****.

david75

Venom wrote: »

Didn't Disney also promise to do something with Phasma and that she wouldn't just be another Bobafett? She got 2 minutes of screentime in TLJ, got taken out by Finn, the worst Stormtrooper ever and a total coward and has been an absolute farce of a character who is nothing more than a cool suit of armor.

Disney promises ain't worth ****.

Where did Disney promise that?
Phasma isn’t that great a character. But I doubt she’s dead too

Wibbs

Tony EH wrote: »

With all the guff about Rey supposedly being and "empowering" (such a dumb term) character for girls

For me I see a character written like hers as actually a bad role and role model for girls/women, or boys/men for that matter. She's not a hero, she's a superhero. Gets the prize just for showing up. Instant success. No arc, no effort, no failure, no growth, just is. Because "you're just perfect the way you are"*Oprah voice*, the well meaning but ultimately bullsh1te message de jour. It basically says there is no need to change, no need to grow, no need to work at being you. And if things go wrong, it's never your fault, because you're perfect sweet cheeks.

The hero's journey from the Greeks onwards reflected and encouraged the idea that you too could change, could be better, could be the hero, but it would come at a cost and it would come with a journey literally and figuratively, before that. You didn't just show up and get the medal.

More and more that notion is removed from the mainstream blockbuster stuff(Marvel type stuff a near given for it). It wasn't always thus. Hell Rocky is near letter for letter the hero's journey. Neo in the first Matrix is also the template(and why the sequels are flashier but ultimately empty). Women's journeys? The most obvious is Ripley from Alien and Alien 2. Particularly in the first. No superhero is she, nor over macho type either. But she is most definitely the hero by the end. She's more Rambo the second time out, but still there is growth there is her journey.

With Rey it's almost cynical and completely demeans the idea of women's struggles. If anything it could be argued it's sexist, in that it's suggesting that audiences and women wouldn't buy an actual heroine's journey and want the sheets just brilliant because boobs. Then again the vast majority of women's roles are written by men and follow a very male view on women and women as heroes. They're mostly either male characters with boobs attached, mother figures, or nerd male fantasy kick arse I wish that was my girlfriend girls.

david75 wrote: »

TLJ was farewell to Leia. Her passing will be mentioned in the crawl of 9 as a motivator for the rebellion to grow or it’ll be mentioned in passing on screen I think. It’s the only road open to them.

Or outtakes and CGI type stuff.

lufties

Hey all. Could it be said that this politically engineered social justice has ruined star wars?

Osmosis Jones

lufties wrote: »

Hey all. Could it be said that this politically engineered social justice has ruined star wars?

If you're a man-child who cries when women and minorities are put in his movies, then yeah sure.

pixelburp

lufties wrote: »

Hey all. Could it be said that this politically engineered social justice has ruined star wars?

No.

The box office disagrees anything is ruined, it's just a divisive movie.

lufties

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

If you're a man-child who cries when women and minorities are put in his movies, then yeah sure.

The anti white male male propaganda is palpable. You are obv a snowflake sjw like most on the site.

Osmosis Jones

lufties wrote: »

The anti white male male propaganda is palpable. You are obv a snowflake sjw like most on the site.

You can't call other people snowflakes when you're offended by people being a different race to you.

david75

lufties wrote: »

The anti white male male propaganda is palpable. You are obv a snowflake sjw like most on the site.

I wonder where you wanted this conversation to go? Did you want people to agree with you? Where does the conversation go then?

You’re obviously insecure in yourself if something as simple as diversity or equality in representation is so unsettling to you.

Why is that I wonder.

lufties

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

You can't call other people snowflakes when you're offended by people being a different race to you.

I'm not offended, but let's face it, Finn is not a patch on han solo, and that fat Asian chick is ridiculous. Furthermore, Mary sue being 'empowered' just isn't a natural nor believable role for a girl.

Osmosis Jones

lufties wrote: »

I'm not offended, but let's face it, Finn is not a patch on han solo, and that fat Asian chick is ridiculous. Furthermore, Mary sue being 'empowered' just isn't a natural nor believable role for a girl.

Yeah, clearly not offended at all.

david75

lufties wrote: »

I'm not offended, but let's face it, Finn is not a patch on han solo, and that fat Asian chick is ridiculous. Furthermore, Mary sue being 'empowered' just isn't a natural nor believable role for a girl.

The only ridiculous and unbelievable thing in all Star Wars is that they aren’t all mixed race and semi brown.

It’s also unbelievable that there’s humans in it at all.

Does that bother you? Probably.

martingriff

lufties wrote: »

I'm not offended, but let's face it, Finn is not a patch on han solo, and that fat Asian chick is ridiculous. Furthermore, Mary sue being 'empowered' just isn't a natural nor believable role for a girl.

WTF Why is it not believable for a girl to be empowered. Now I did not care for Finn and Rose relationship as it seemed force but her reason for pissed and becoming somewhat empowered semi believable. The casino scene, DJ and maybev i am wrong the guy withe the rose colored pendant and the lady beside him were pointless i bet its set up for the next set of movies after this trilogy

Osmosis Jones

Nah being the hero of the story just isn't a believable role for a woman

:rolleyes:

pumpkin4life

lufties wrote: »

Hey all. Could it be said that this politically engineered social justice has ruined star wars?

Nah. If The Last Jedi has taught us anything, its that women shouldn't be in charge of space fleets because they'll make a ham sandwich out of it and get everyone killed.

Agent Coulson

lufties wrote: »

I'm not offended, but let's face it, Finn is not a patch on han solo, and that fat Asian chick is ridiculous. Furthermore, Mary sue being 'empowered' just isn't a natural nor believable role for a girl.

The only ridiculous thing is calling this girl fat.

Osmosis Jones

There's been comments in here calling Daisy Ridley fat too sure, seems to be a go-to form of misogyny.

johnny_ultimate

lufties wrote: »

The anti white male male propaganda is palpable. You are obv a snowflake sjw like most on the site.

Mod note: Just to be abundantly clear, we will happily apply a zero tolerance policy to this sort of abusive, childish trolling here.

Osmosis Jones

Dare I continue?

py2006

If Daisy is fat, I'm a sumo wrestler.

Def one or two out of place characters. They prob should have had more substance and screen time.

So much hype and interviews with the Rose and Phasma actors before release I was looking forward to seeing them. C3P0 had more screen time.

Saruhashi

https://twitter.com/PrequelMemesBot/status/941929576812474368

Saruhashi

https://twitter.com/PrequelMemesBot/status/941894289994510336

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

https://twitter.com/PrequelMemesBot/status/941929576812474368

I love that you’re still pushing this and revelling in it when it’s been proven the rt score has been actively troll Bombed to damage the film.
It isn’t you doing it is it?

Mickeroo

If there's one thing the internet has taught me it's that there's nothing that mobilises franchise fanatics en masse like an easily abused public rating system and critics they don't agree with