Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

david75 wrote: »

I love that you’re still pushing this and revelling in it when it’s been proven the rt score has been actively troll Bombed to damage the film.
It isn’t you doing it is it?

I'm more perplexed of how the prequels got such high scores than anything else. The RT score for TLJ seems about right to me.

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm more perplexed of how the prequels got such high scores than anything else. The RT score for TLJ seems about right to me.

I wonder what would have happened if rt was around when the prequels were out. Fans were beyond furious with each of them

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

I love that you’re still pushing this and revelling in it when it’s been proven the rt score has been actively troll Bombed to damage the film.
It isn’t you doing it is it?

https://twitter.com/PrequelMemesBot/status/942418694851911680

Venom

david75 wrote: »

I love that you’re still pushing this and revelling in it when it’s been proven the rt score has been actively troll Bombed to damage the film.
It isn’t you doing it is it?

How, when and where has it been reveled the scores have been actively troll bombed?

RT have come out and said this wasn't a thing and that the score has not been hacked or anything dodgy was going on.

Metacritic scores are pretty similar to the RT ones.

Youtube is full of videos from longtime Star Wars fans and big time channels who have major issues with this movie.

Forbes has run articles showing TLJ box office takings are dropping off very quick for a big blockbuster movie nevermind a Star Wars movie.

There is a huge disparity on this very thread over how poor a movie TLJ is.

But no, its all down to trolls :rolleyes:

johnny_ultimate

This may be a stretch, but I don't think Disney will be losing *too much* sleep over a Rotten Tomatoes user score as their critically acclaimed blockbuster soars towards a ten figure box office take?

Saruhashi

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

This may be a stretch, but I don't think Disney will be losing *too much* sleep over a Rotten Tomatoes user score as their critically acclaimed blockbuster soars towards a ten figure box office take?

Yeah, it's a guaranteed 1.5 billion dollars for them.

Don't see the harm in people having a laugh about it though.

Saruhashi

https://twitter.com/PrequelMemesBot/status/942065704236388352

david75

Venom wrote: »

How, when and where has it been reveled the scores have been actively troll bombed?

RT have come out and said this wasn't a thing and that the score has not been hacked or anything dodgy was going on.

Metacritic scores are pretty similar to the RT ones.

Youtube is full of videos from longtime Star Wars fans and big time channels who have major issues with this movie.

Forbes has run articles showing TLJ box office takings are dropping off very quick for a big blockbuster movie nevermind a Star Wars movie.

There is a huge disparity on this very thread over how poor a movie TLJ is.

But no, its all down to trolls :rolleyes:

One of the business magazines investigated it and did samples of 100 reviews of each aggregators sites reviews for it and found most of the negative reviews were from newly registered accounts with no previous posts and often posting the same bad review under different names.

The exact wuote and link to the article is a few pages back.
It’s definitely not every single reaction to it but to suggest it hasn’t happened is incorrect too.

nix

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

There's been comments in here calling Daisy Ridley fat too sure, seems to be a go-to form of misogyny.

I think im the only person that has commented on Ridleys weight, I pointed out that she looked to have gained weight since handing Luke the lightsabre, at no point did i call her fat.

Then again, someone else may have commented on it to, its hard to keep up with all the posting, or should i say David's posting :P

Wibbs

martingriff wrote: »

WTF Why is it not believable for a girl to be empowered.

It's most certainly not unbelievable for a woman*. With this particular characterisation it is unbelievable. Blatantly so. And saying it is unbelievable or she's a near perfect Mary Sue is apparently "misogynist" to some ears. IMHO if anything its the opposite of that. It's effectively saying the audience either doesn't have the narrative patience for growth and wants it all now, or they can't write a fully rounded character that happens to be a woman. She was the stand out in the first flic, but she's not alone. Most, the men and women are cardboard cutouts, or internally contradictory, or barely written.






*I can't abide calling grown women "girls" as much as I can't abide calling grown men "boys". It's infantilisation and sexist as all hell. Though one might argue in the past it was directly demeaning to grown women, but now that both genders can suffer from it, it could also be the increasing pushing back of adulthood in favour of an extended adolescence has a part to play in this.

Wibbs

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

This may be a stretch, but I don't think Disney will be losing *too much* sleep over a Rotten Tomatoes user score as their critically acclaimed blockbuster soars towards a ten figure box office take?

They certainly won't. I would be willing to bet mind you that TLJ will not age well and will get more criticism than praise in the years to come.

Falthyron

Saw it for the third time yesterday and I can't get past the Leia death scene and the final scene. Completely unnecessary and outright cringe-worthy. In fact, given Disney's ownership I can't escape this image when it comes to the final scene.

Osmosis Jones

nix wrote: »

I think im the only person that has commented on Ridleys weight, I pointed out that she looked to have gained weight since handing Luke the lightsabre, at no point did i call her fat.

Then again, someone else may have commented on it to, its hard to keep up with all the posting, or should i say David's posting :P

Took me a minute of searching but this is the comment that had it in my head

AnneFrank wrote: »

Rey looks pretty chubby

kerplun k

Wibbs wrote: »

I would be willing to bet mind you that TLJ will not age well and will get more criticism than praise in the years to come.

I completely agree with you.... is what I would be saying to you if you said the exact opposite to this sentence.

Saruhashi

Wibbs wrote: »

They certainly won't. I would be willing to bet mind you that TLJ will not age well and will get more criticism than praise in the years to come.

Thinking about it though, TFA took 2.1 billion worldwide and TLJ is projected to take 1.5 billion worldwide.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/23/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-plunges-77-still-tops-300m/#5e8a2a853f0d

It's easily to say that Disney won't care as they dive into their pile of 1.5 billion dollars like Scrooge McDuck but I find it hard to believe that nobody in the boardroom will be asking "why are we down half a billion bucks".

Something that doesn't sit right with me is how this whole thing is panning out.

Media outlets give the movie glowing reviews.
Audience reaction is not in line with that. 56% on RT pretty much from the moment of release.
The same media outlets then run articles that in some form say "ignore the bad audience scores, those are trolls, see the movie anyway, maybe see it twice".

Everyone is OK with that? It seems so strange to me.

Also lets be honest here if the announced that the next anthology film will be "Jar Jar Binks - Star Wars Story" you could probably still guarantee a 1 billion dollar box office.

There has been a tremendous amount of political spin around the RT scores for TLJ and it definitely has me raising an eyebrow.

Osmosis Jones

I'm sure they knew from the start that TFA would make more than any movie they make after it, it was the return of Star Wars, the first one in 12 years and the first good one in over 30 years. They'd be mad to have expected to make TFA-level money from each subsequent movie.

FrostyJack

Saruhashi wrote: »

Thinking about it though, TFA took 2.1 billion worldwide and TLJ is projected to take 1.5 billion worldwide.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/23/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-plunges-77-still-tops-300m/#5e8a2a853f0d

It's easily to say that Disney won't care as they dive into their pile of 1.5 billion dollars like Scrooge McDuck but I find it hard to believe that nobody in the boardroom will be asking "why are we down half a billion bucks".

Something that doesn't sit right with me is how this whole thing is panning out.

Media outlets give the movie glowing reviews.
Audience reaction is not in line with that. 56% on RT pretty much from the moment of release.
The same media outlets then run articles that in some form say "ignore the bad audience scores, those are trolls, see the movie anyway, maybe see it twice".

Everyone is OK with that? It seems so strange to me.

Also lets be honest here if the announced that the next anthology film will be "Jar Jar Binks - Star Wars Story" you could probably still guarantee a 1 billion dollar box office.

There has been a tremendous amount of political spin around the RT scores for TLJ and it definitely has me raising an eyebrow.

This is the proof I was looking for that the RT critics are corrupt. It is like tech reviewers when an iPhone comes out giving it super reviews. Maybe not a great example but Justice League and all DC movies get panned by critics but audiences give a much higher score, yet Marvel (Iphone) movies get 90% straight out of the box. Is it a coincidence Disney owns both franchises?

TLJ was not a bad movie so I don't see why it should get such levels of hate, it had some really bad subplots, like the casino ark,Finn and Fasma but the rest was generally acceptable to good. It should have been a lot better but no reason to lose sleep over.

pixelburp

Can we just all jump in a time machine now, go forward 10 or so years, and get this "will it age?" discussion over now? Otherwise it's a long time to wait for posterity to catch up with the conversation

pumpkin4life

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

This may be a stretch, but I don't think Disney will be losing *too much* sleep over a Rotten Tomatoes user score as their critically acclaimed blockbuster soars towards a ten figure box office take?

https://www.the-numbers.com/movies/custom-comparisons/Star-Wars-Ep-VIII-The-Last-Jedi/Star-Wars-Ep-VII-The-Force-Awakens

I completely disagree with this. It's making fantastic money no doubt, but revenue wise The Last Jedi is nearly 40% down on The Force Awakens on a day by day comparison. Any business who are nearly 40% down on their big product would be massively concerned with something like that, especially with the Solo movie out next year.

Take a look at this graph: Even the Lucas trilogy didn't have that much of a gap, and in the case of Attack of the Clones vs The Phantom Menace, for the opening few days, first three weeks or so, they did comparatively well with each other . At most it seems to have been about a 25% gap, which is also massive but not coming up to 40% massive.

https://www.the-numbers.com/movies/franchise/Star-Wars#tab=summary

Venom

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I'm sure they knew from the start that TFA would make more than any movie they make after it, it was the return of Star Wars, the first one in 12 years and the first good one in over 30 years. They'd be mad to have expected to make TFA-level money from each subsequent movie.

TFA came out a decade after 3 movies that didn't go down all that well with the fanbase, so I seriously doubt Disney where that sure it would be the best earner of episodes 7,8 and 9. As a movie it had to introduce the audience both old and new, to a new set of characters and to a changed galaxy, far, far away. TFA more than succeeded in this despite some flaws and it ushered in a new era of Star Wars movies and merchandise.

TLJ on the other hand, had so much more hype and goodwill from the fanbase than TFA, should be doing gangbuster earnings but it's not. The fanbase is more divided over this film than they were with the prequels.

As another poster mentioned, Disney won't be looking at this as "we made 1.5 billion" but more like "why the hell are we down 600 million to 1 billion." I would be shocked if Disney are not rethinking and taking a very close look into Johnson's upcoming trilogy.

david75

In no universe was TLJ or any sequel to come gonna makw as much money as TFA. The first new Star Wars film in ten years and not in the hands of Lucas?

Bob iger even told investors as much way back at some conference. Disney isn’t worried one bit about box office for this. Rogue one was a far bigger risk and it paid off. TLJ money is in the bank.

johnny_ultimate

Venom wrote: »

TFA came out a decade after 3 movies that didn't go down all that well with the fanbase, so I seriously doubt Disney where that sure it would be the best earner of episodes 7,8 and 9. As a movie it had to introduce the audience both old and new, to a new set of characters and to a changed galaxy, far, far away. TFA more than succeeded in this despite some flaws and it ushered in a new era of Star Wars movies and merchandise.

TLJ on the other hand, had so much more hype and goodwill from the fanbase than TFA, should be doing gangbuster earnings but it's not. The fanbase is more divided over this film than they were with the prequels.

I'd actually say the opposite. TFA was THE SEQUEL to Star Wars OT after all those years. As difficult as it is to quantify these things (although, just to pick one *very* rudimentary dataset, TFA trailer has more than double the views on YouTube than the TLJ one), there was inevitably going to a falloff in hype for the third SW film in as many years. A sequel to a popular film is not a guarantee of equal or greater success: the discrepancy in, say, the Marvel film takings shows that.

Anyway, fixating over the box office figures or audience score of a mega blockbuster is not something I'm remotely interested in. I thought the film was an absolute pleasure to watch and actively improved second go around (which was the opposite of my experience with TFA), and from my perspective that's what I care about significantly more than how many extra hundreds of millions it adds to its billion dollar take. I'm fascinated to see what Rian Johnson does with a comparatively blank slate, and even in the unlikely event furious fans somehow manage to get him fired I will greatly look forward to whatever he does do next. He's an immensely talented chap, and I'm delighted he got a chance to explore such an interesting take on the most commercially hallowed of franchises.

johnny_ultimate

FrostyJack wrote: »

Maybe not a great example but Justice League and all DC movies get panned by critics but audiences give a much higher score, yet Marvel (Iphone) movies get 90% straight out of the box. Is it a coincidence Disney owns both franchises?

Nah, it's not a coincidence: it's mostly that the DC movies are pretty much all a load of absolute cack with a particularly... committed fan base.

brianregan09

274 pages of discussion and arguement from grown men and women about a film made to create kids toys , makes you think doesn't it

but seriously I've just been watching the new netflix show The Toys that made us and the star wars episode is fantastic

Wibbs

pixelburp wrote: »

Can we just all jump in a time machine now, go forward 10 or so years, and get this "will it age?" discussion over now? Otherwise it's a long time to wait for posterity to catch up with the conversation

I don't need to TBH. It is a wonderfully crafted audiovisual flic, but the plot is all over the place, the characterisations and motives inconsistent and very thinly drawn, with somewhat cynical button pushing and marketing tweaking wrapped up in the clothes of a highly lucrative and lasting universe*, but ultimately heartless.

That for me is what is missing the most; heart. I thought the ROTJ was extremely lacklustre in many parts, but it still had heart. The prequels had the intention of heart, but wildly missed the mark, the new flics have neither.

Now I certainly get why some like it and some hate it, both for various reasons and the extremes are a bit silly in both directions. For me it was an OK way to spend a couple of hours in the dark, but it's neither the utter sh1tshow some would have you believe, but it is certainly not the well crafted story that others would have you believe.

I strongly suspect if it wasn't SW it wouldn't get near the passion of the like/dislike on show and would be seen as a creaky and hammy if entertaining popcorn chugger for the Christmas market. Nothing approaching bad, but nothing approaching good. The seeming disparity between critics who seem to be raving about it and punters who seem to be 50/50 would be kinda right if they met in the middle.





*The "star" droid the most obvious example. the squeaky football is seen as the new big toy seller, the dustbin is out. And that's on the screen in both this and the last outing. R2 barely features in either and for very short screen time. TFA was even more cynical in wrapping itself in the plot and iconography of the first SW. If another studio had made that with the names changed and Lucas still held the rights he'd have had an easy time in court suing for plagiarism.

A_Sober_Paddy

nix wrote: »

I think im the only person that has commented on Ridleys weight, I pointed out that she looked to have gained weight since handing Luke the lightsabre, at no point did i call her fat.

Then again, someone else may have commented on it to, its hard to keep up with all the posting, or should i say David's posting :P

I thought the same, but its not relevant. Maybe all the people calling her too skinny got to her sub-consciencial

Wibbs

brianregan09 wrote: »

274 pages of discussion and arguement from grown men and women about a film made to create kids toys , makes you think doesn't it

Oh it does and I agree with you. And the way to flog those wares is to make a flic writ in as big a crayon as possible, with as much obviousness you can muster and keep it simplistic. An old style kids comic with moving pictures.

As some irony would have it Star Wars pretty much created that market too. Yes there had been films before that had merchandising tie ins, but it was small fry(even in other entertainment areas back in the 60's John Lennon used to bitch to the other guys that they were making nothing off Beatle wigs, guitars and suits).

I remember as a kid of the 70's getting a couple of rubber sharks when Jaws was current. The difference being that Spielberg nor the studio got nada from the sale of them and neither did the studio(hard to trademark a living creature). Lucas made squillions almost by fluke. He certainly thought he'd make a few quid on the merch but not to nearly that degree. It certainly wasn't a driving force of the script or the resulting film and it that makes a difference. Today that secondary potentially massive revenue is most certainly uppermost in the exec's minds. QV Transformers. TV really started to build these "toy show" markets. With BB8 and the Porgs(almost designed as the ideal stuffed toys) the studio had that in mind. I'd reckon the bloody Ewoks were also seen as the perfect secondary market toy back in the 80's.

but seriously I've just been watching the new netflix show The Toys that made us and the star wars episode is fantastic

+1 well worth a watch, as is the rest of the series.

pumpkin4life

brianregan09 wrote: »

274 pages of discussion and arguement from grown men and women about a film made to create kids toys , makes you think doesn't it

but seriously I've just been watching the new netflix show The Toys that made us and the star wars episode is fantastic

At this stage Star Wars is an institution, even if it is pretty much a fairy tale for kids but with laser guns and spaceships. But people's interpretation of films is also extremely interesting as well, considering how big it all is. Star Wars is such a big thing, no one else has done that to that scale since, you can give George Lucas that.

The Last Jedi is a fantastic visual and audio experience, but it takes a giant poo on the lore, character motivations and internal logic of the universe built up in the previous films. What interests me the most is I'm reading the same "it's so original because Luke isn't Luke anymore" comments; suggesting to me there is a market for "subversive button reset" films. Which is kind of depressing, come to think of it. Movies for people to feel good about for that reason.

This movie took the franchises main hero, without explanation, who had to suffer and grow in the first three movies, and turned him into a cowardly hermit creep who is replaced by the perfect, can't do no wrong third wave feminist icon Rey. That is a massive fuck you right there.

It's probably why you're seeing all these superhero movies or kids movies gone or going much darker in the past, the self destructo customer. But when the reset is too strong, you get a backlash, like what has happened here.

At least the prequels were just terrible movies.

kerplun k

Falthyron wrote: »

Saw it for the third time yesterday and I can't get past the Leia death scene and the final scene. Completely unnecessary and outright cringe-worthy. In fact, given Disney's ownership I can't escape this image when it comes to the final scene.

Did she have a death scene? I’ve only seen it once. I just remembered her staying behind?

PhiloCypher

One of my biggest problems with this sequel trilogy is how they've structured it, they've essentially taken 2 films to re-establish the status quo of ANH, and thats being generous as the resistance has even less resources then the Rebels had at the end of that film. With the OT due to the indeterminate time in between each episode you could see their resources grow from film to film as more allies, emboldened by their success in destroying the Deathstar, joined the fight. With the sequel trilogy if they are to wrap everything up it will necessitate a significant time jump for the resistance to have accrued the resources necessary to defeat the First Order. Will be interesting to see how they handle it, do they age the actors up ?