Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I think it will end up the complete opposite, as the dust settles people will see the film is deeply flawed and many youtube videos will point this out. It is bad film making with poorly developed characters, bad editing and poor story telling. It is more like a ride at Disney park, a good time, sure but ultimately a hallow experience, anyone who knows anything about film will see the holes.

YouTube videos?
Right so.

Mickeroo

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well, I've spent several hundred words in this thread honestly explaining why I liked the film, giving lots of attention to what I admired about the filmmaking and scripting. But I'm not sure repeating myself will be beneficial when somebody claims I know nothing about film. Prefer to come from a position of mutual respect when debating the merits/demerits of a film. Naive, I know

Maybe you should make it clear everyone who disagrees with you is either objectively wrong or delusional because that's what film discussion is apparently about these days. :pac:

expectationlost

david75 wrote: »

He overheard Finn being told by Poe I think.

then poe is a walking/talking/flying cluster****

Wibbs

On somewhat mature musing...

What I'm finding interesting about this flic is not the opinion that thinks it's terribly bad, nor the opinion that thinks it's terribly good. What I do find interesting about this flic is it's neither. It's neither terribly good, nor terribly bad. I can easily list the good bits and equally easily list the bad and I'd bet outside of the extreme views I'd get mostly nods of agreement from both opinions*.

This is why I think history won't be too kind to it. It's mostly meh, with various worldviews tagging their take onto it. In one sense this makes it a very interesting flic in that it mirrors sometimes quite opposite views and I reckon it will be remembered and dissected on that score. And how polarising a flic it's turned out to be and how this was beginning to be a trend with some blockbusters looking to reinvent(Ghostbusters another. Oceans 8 will be another again). And how wider discussion itself across many subjects had become more polarising in this period of time and how this flic reflected that, intentionally or no.

I also find it interesting that Disney went this route(and no, the director would not have been able to go this route without their 100% support. That's a fantasy). They did take a risk**.


*though still for me the overall arc and bad points outweigh the good by some distance. Most of all it bungles the basics of telling a story, covering this up with set pieces and myth deconstruction masquerading as clever that clunk from one to the next wrapped in familiar cloth that ties it together. The latter saves it from itself. I would contend that if this was the same story only told in a new universe it would be universally panned.

**Though set against that I can't see any script supervisor or tweaker not changing a few of the plot devices, devices that were oddly uninventive or just plain bad. QV the silly starship chase, the casino side piece(which could have easily lost half the running time, even if they wanted to make the oh so obvious "big war machine in background" point). The jump from the chase to Hoth 2 another jar and the incredible growing/shrinking Rebel force. Or the opening scene itself, which was at points plain childish and only a setup to tell us "hotshot blokes are stupid" and "people die"(even though the daft plan is daft was approved).

johnny_ultimate

Mickeroo wrote: »

Maybe you should make it clear everyone who disagrees with you is either objectively wrong or delusional because that's what film discussion is apparently about these days. :pac:

I blame video game forums for this

Wibbs

expectationlost wrote: »

then poe is a walking/talking/flying cluster****

He's designed/written to be.

irishman86

irishthump wrote: »

Ignore him. He resorts to crap like this when his Jedi mind tricks fail to convince anyone to agree with him.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Uh just pathetic

johnny_ultimate

Wibbs wrote: »

He's designed/written to be.

One the moments I liked a lot in the film is as Poe et al are celebrating the destruction of the dreadnaught, and it cuts to Leia looking at the screen of all the destroyed ships lost in the mission. A simple, effective way of visually underlining the consequences of Poe's hot-headedness / cluster ****ery.

irishman86

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

*sigh*

Well look at your reply, its adds nothing its as bad as the dismal as being a tourist on the thread i got earlier. These aren't arguments just nonsense
I disliked the movie said why i disliked the movie and got complete dismissal, i dont mind people liking it but its got a lot of flaws and imo its only watchable because its Star Wars

david75

Something particularly weird about this film is that those who seem to have been truly offended by this film are taking it upon themselves to actively project that offence onto anyone that enjoyed it. I’m calling it the trump effect. We’re wrong cos we like it and we’re causing offence by liking it. Fvking childish carry on but here we are.

Sad Professor

So many little moments I noticed/appreciated more on second viewing:

- Remember the scene where Finn and Rose are telling Poe their plan? As Rose starts talking, Finn interrupts her. But he doesn't just talk over, he also walks across the frame blocking her from view. I got a laugh out of this on both viewings. A good example of how blocking can be funny.

- In the throne room scene after Snoke thwarts Rey's attempt to steal Kylo's lightsaber, it hits the ground in front of Kylo and spins. He looks down at it, then up at Snoke. That's how he gets the idea for how to kill him!

- On first viewing I found it strange how only Finn and Rose managed to survive the hanger explosion, but the second time I realised that they survived because they were the only two people lying face down on the floor because the First Order was about to execute them.

- Kylo tells Rey during their first ForceTime conversation that she can't be creating their link because the effort would kill her. Obviously this was intended to set up and limit what Luke does later.

- The slow motion turn around at the start of the Praetorian guard fight; Rey's roar at the guard; Ben's emotional "please" to Rey.

- The way the editing segues between different storylines is really well done for the most part. After Rey mentions Leia, we cut to back to Leia; Kylo making a fist is used to transition to a ship at lightspeed; the clothes iron coming down, etc, etc. Most of this was obviously by design. Lucas's editing was so choppy in comparison.

- When Hux discovers Kylo's unconscious body in the throne room, he slowly reaches for his blaster, but as Kylo wakes up Hux stops and acts like he's patting down his uniform. It''s quite a subtle moment but very funny. I also noticed how even though his character is the butt of a lot of jokes, Hux is no fool and is generally right about most things: like not going after Luke etc. Most of the humour comes from how Kylo and everyone else treats him.

- Does the kid definitely use the Force at the end? It seems almost too subtle to notice. I completely missed it the first time and only barely noticed it the second time. Anyway, very Nolan-esque ending in that the myth of Luke facing down the First Order on Crait is more important than the reality.

Vladimir Poontang

david75 wrote: »

Something particularly weird about this film is that those who seem to have been truly offended by this film are taking it upon themselves to actively project that offence onto anyone that enjoyed it. I’m calling it the trump effect. We’re wrong cos we like it and we’re causing offence by liking it. Fvking childish carry on but here we are.

You're a gas man David

Jayesdiem

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

ebbsy wrote: »

Watching Rogue One now. It's a very good film.

I would left The Last Jedi half way through only for the fact I was with someone.

Where are all these good reviews coming from ?

A lot of it is people in total denial. The same happened with Episode 1. Fans who were heavily invested in the film defended it to the bitter end because they couldn't just bring themselves to admit it was terrible. Eventually they came around when it dawned on them that there was no saving the prequels. The same will happen with this trilogy.

There will still be a few stalwarts that will never see the light despite an abundance of evidence that is fails to deliver on multiple fronts.

It's for these reasons that I truly believe the magic of Star Wars will die. It's alive for now despite 4 of the last 6 (arguably 7) movies being the absolute sh1ts. This is probably because Star Wars movie releases have been relatively rare since 1977. However, over the next decade or so, we are going to witness Star Wars saturation because of Disney. Trilogies and new charachters will be 10 a penny as Star Wars is given the Marvel treatment of repeated reboots and sequels of CGI-based action drivel. All canonical logic has been cast aside as an increasingly brainless consumer market hoovers up plotless sh1te that depends on shocking CGI that to my untrained eye at least, doesn't seem to have moved on from 1999. Disney knows what it's at too. TFA ticked many of the boxes that legacy fans wanted such as the use of practical effects, a "used" universe etc. That was the sweetener to bring back the hardcore who have been given the two fingers again in favour of mass market hysteria. That the films continue to gross mega bucks merely reinforces this cycle so when all is said and done it doesn't really matter how many CGI horses, flying Princesses and coin shooting droids sully the legacy of the franchise. If drivel is what the market continues to pay for, drivel is what it will get. For some reason people seem to love the taste of sh1t.

johnny_ultimate

Sad Professor wrote: »

So many little moments I noticed/appreciated more on second viewing:

- Remember the scene where Finn and Rose are telling Poe their plan? As Rose starts talking, Finn interrupts her. But he doesn't just talk over, he also walks across the frame blocking her from view. I got a laugh out of this on both viewings. A good example of how blocking can be funny.

I love this bit, and now Rose steps back in to interrupt Finn again. Sharp bit of characterisation that reaffirms the assertiveness we see in her introductory scenes.

- Does the kid definitely use the Force at the end? It seems almost too subtle to notice. I completely missed it the first time and only barely noticed it the second time. Anyway, very Nolan-esque ending in that the myth of Luke facing down the First Order on Crait is more important than the reality.

Yeah I only noticed this second time too, and again it was 'did that just happen?' Could be force or him just knocking it over with his foot. Mostly it's just an interesting little flourish: what the film represents symbolically works regardless

Mickeroo

Sad Professor wrote: »

- Does the kid definitely use the Force at the end? It seems almost too subtle to notice. I completely missed it the first time and only barely noticed it the second time. Anyway, very Nolan-esque ending in that the myth of Luke facing down the First Order on Crait is more important than the reality.

I've only seen it the once but I thought it was clear he used the fore to pick up the mop.

pumpkin4life

irishman86 wrote: »

Well look at your reply, its adds nothing its as bad as the dismal as being a tourist on the thread i got earlier. These aren't arguments just nonsense
I disliked the movie said why i disliked the movie and got complete dismissal, i dont mind people liking it but its got a lot of flaws and imo its only watchable because its Star Wars

You know, I was thinking there that as bizarre as it sounds, we weren't the target audience of this movie.

This is a reset button movie. What are the characteristics of the reset button movie?*

1: Subversion of character motivations and personalities for seemingly no reason.

2: Putting in minority characters (race, sex, sexual orientation) for the sake of diversity itself, rather than a plot point or because these are the best people for the role.

3: Plots with major logical inconsistencies (that johnny_ultimate can't see/just ignores) in the name of ambiguity or J.J Abrams mystery box bollocks: weird for the sake of being weird.

4: Does a Mark Kermode/some popular Youtuber with all the right opinions enjoy it?

5: Can I feel good because I can use this movie to show I have the right opinions?

That is johnny ultimates market of movies, and in a sense that's fine its what youre into.

---

Most people want:

Big explosions done in an interesting way.
Good vs evil/relatable characters.

This is not the audience The Last Jedi is made for.

The Last Jedi is a movie made by reset button fans for other reset button fans.

Unfortunately that doesn't transform into money very well.

I'm going with my original guess that Hollywood is in a bubble and some of the best directors (David Lynch, The Coen Brothers, David Fincher) have some sense that this is happening, hence the jump into tv or in the Coen Brother's case, making their last movie based entirely on this idea.

The Last Jedi will not be remembered because its a bad movie, it will be remembered because it is a ridiculous one made at a crazy time in Hollywood's development.

*other examples include Ocean's 8, The Ghostbusters remake, Frozen, Spectre (which is on RTE right now!) more than a few modern superhero movies floating around right now.

Sad Professor

Mickeroo wrote: »

I've only seen it the once but I thought it was clear he used the fore to pick up the mop.

Yeah maybe it was obvious but it's still something I probably wouldn't have noticed until a much later viewing had it not been pointed out to me. I mean, like johnny_ultimate said, he could just as easily have kicked it with his foot or something. I dunno.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I love this bit, and now Rose steps back in to interrupt Finn again. Sharp bit of characterisation that reaffirms the assertiveness we see in her introductory scenes.

Speaking of characterisation, I assume you appreciated how Mifune-like Luke is in his first scene, throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder. I kinda wish Johnson had gone all the way with this, but given how controversial that moment alone proved it's probably for the best that he didn't.

irishthump

david75 wrote: »

I think it’s going to be viewed as one of the best when the dust settles and a bit of distance to review without the cloud of manufactured hate in the way.

So the honest opinions of almost half of this movie’s audience is “manufactured hate”?

Get a grip.....

johnny_ultimate

pumpkin4life wrote: »

That is johnny ultimates market of movies, and in a sense that's fine its what youre into.

Awh shucks, I'm happy that Hollywood cares enough about me, random man on the Internet, to make the occasional blockbuster I like!

Spectre is a little bit ****, incidentally

banie01

The whole film left a very poor impression. Poor story, lots of story dead ends and too many Deus ex Machina to shake a stick out....
But then again there is no coincidence only the will of the force!

The reliance on force coincidence is a tired and jaded story device that is totally over used in this movie.
I enjoyed Rogue One and TFA, but this installment..
I actually had to force myself to stay in the cinema. From the poor pacing, and plot to some very ropy CGI sequences and a moralising anti war machine stance that would have hung a lot better if it was inferred rather than driven home with a bloody sledge hammer it was just to me at least, a very disappointing installment.

From the opening scene a flight of bombers attack the dreadnought armed with free fall bombs.
Now aside from the actual nonsensical bomb release fiasco and resultant deus ex machina....
A flight of bombers dropping bombs in space?!?!?!
Because bombs do fall vertically in zero gravity!
The art of actual coherent stort telling were out the window feom the very start!?

!?!

.

pjohnson

irishthump wrote: »

So the honest opinions of almost half of this movie’s audience is “manufactured hate”?

Get a grip.....

What is "manufactured hate"?

Oh wait its David that said it. That'd be the Russian conspiracy so.

Wibbs

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

A simple, effective way of visually underlining the consequences of Poe's hot-headedness / cluster ****ery.

and about as subtle as a house brick. Never mind it makes no sense. She approved his hot headed mission in the first place. She ordered the bombers in. She aimed and fired the hot head. Again interesting how the exact same scene is viewed through the prism of personal viewpoint rather than what's on the screen. Intentional? I'd love to think so but the same writers/director goes amateur hour in a few places in that same scene. Which for me reinforces that what this flic and others like it is doing at this moment in our culture is showing the polarisation within western culture(particularly American where the Love/Hate types are stroooooong with the Farce).

david75 wrote: »

Something particularly weird about this film is that those who seem to have been truly offended by this film are taking it upon themselves to actively project that offence onto anyone that enjoyed it. I’m calling it the trump effect. We’re wrong cos we like it and we’re causing offence by liking it. Fvking childish carry on but here we are.

In fairness D - and again a reflection of the non self aware polarisation going on - both "sides" are equally reactionary and dismissive of the other. Look in your own post for an example, with the "trump effect" bit.

pumpkin4life wrote: »

You know, I was thinking there that as bizarre as it sounds, we weren't the target audience of this movie.

I'd largely agree with that.

This is a reset button movie. What are the characteristics of the reset button movie?*

1: Subversion of character motivations and personalities for seemingly no reason.

2: Putting in minority characters (race, sex, sexual orientation) for the sake of diversity itself, rather than a plot point or because these are the best people for the role.

I'd say it's far simpler than that and it's about marketing and box office takings. In point 1 it's about clearing the decks of the old characters to make way for the new. Leia was largely safe from this as the mother figure, but father figures are often seen as unnecessary and when present are often feckless. The whole father figure vibe in the OT was a different dynamic. A "hero" like Luke had to go. If written as he would likely be he would be the Yoda figure of this new universe, essentially unbeatable and the new crop would be overshadowed. Notice how Rey kicks his arse in a stick fight. If Ford had stayed on, Solo would have got the chop or been sidelined too(and was hardly the model father or husband). Chewie is "safe" though is very much a side character. The two droids, the pair that were consistent throughout the OT(and prequels) are very much sidelined. Threepio gets a few scenes, but Artoo is almost absent in place of the squeaky and more cuddly BB8. So we go into the last in the trilogy with only the two droids and Chewie from the OT and all can be played by younger(and cheaper) actors. Carrie dying lost us the last of the "human" ones. We might get force ghost Luke, but I dunno...More likely Force ghost Carrie if I were to guess.

As for diversity? I personally welcome it when it's well written and not tokenism(and I genuinely don't feel that in this or the last one. Maybe Rey being Girl Power Mary Sue). The OT was extremely white Californian, with only one main woman throughout. Lando may be loved today, but he was seen back in the day as more than a bit of a token shoved in on the back of people asking WTF. Plus different people bring in different audiences and help the box office. So it's all good. I mean if all films were made in Africa and all I saw on screen were Black faces I'd not be too interested.

3: Plots with major logical inconsistencies (that johnny_ultimate can't see/just ignores) in the name of ambiguity or J.J Abrams mystery box bollocks: weird for the sake of being weird.

I wouldn't assume weird for the sake of weird when a simpler but more baffling explanation is bad writing. There's a long list of "eh wut.." moments, even sequences in TLJ.

5: Can I feel good because I can use this movie to show I have the right opinions?

I'd say that's much more in the audience than the creators.

Most people want:

Big explosions done in an interesting way.
Good vs evil/relatable characters.

And most of all consistency of storytelling. Though one could argue that audience is more in TV land than blockbuster cinema, where flash bangs and jolts is the rollercoaster people want and dodgy plotting is mostly ignored, or if seen explained away as "innovative".

The Last Jedi is a movie made by reset button fans for other reset button fans.

partly, but more to keep the franchise going forward. Put it this way, if Disney had bought this in 1990 and all the original actors in their youth were game to go again, no way would they have gone this route.

Unfortunately that doesn't transform into money very well.

It's not exactly losing money. Yes it's down as the run goes on over TFA, but not close to disastrously so. If I were Disney I'd be more concerned with the Solo flic and other side pieces.

I'm going with my original guess that Hollywood is in a bubble and some of the best directors (David Lynch, The Coen Brothers, David Fincher) have some sense that this is happening, hence the jump into tv or in the Coen Brother's case, making their last movie based entirely on this idea.

TV does allow for more scope these days and lesser studio oversight.

expectationlost

who says rian wasn't trying to troll, the iron! lol

SnakePlissken

irishthump wrote: »

david75 wrote: »

I think it’s going to be viewed as one of the best when the dust settles and a bit of distance to review without the cloud of manufactured hate in the way.

So the honest opinions of almost half of this movie’s audience is “manufactured hate”?

Get a grip.....

Where are you getting half the audience didn't enjoy it, rotten tomatoes? I, along with the four friends I saw this with thought it was an excellent entry to the series, yet not one of us put a review up on rotten tomatoes because guess what, rotten tomatoes doesn't mean squat to most.

ps3lover

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Where are you getting half the audience didn't enjoy it, rotten tomatoes? I, along with the four friends I saw this with thought it was an excellent entry to the series, yet not one of us put a review up on rotten tomatoes because guess what, rotten tomatoes doesn't mean squat to most.

The second weekend drop would indicate a lot of people didn’t return for round 2


http://www.boxofficemojo.com/showdowns/chart/?view=weekend&id=openingweekendshowdown.htm

Wibbs

SnakePlissken wrote: »

yet not one of us put a review up on rotten tomatoes because guess what, rotten tomatoes doesn't mean squat to most.

I'd 100% be in agreement there. Just as paper won't refuse ink, screens won't refuse pixels and RT would be an example of that. With a few exceptions the "official" critics are lacklustre and often wear their biases on their sleeve and as you say most actual cinema goers won't bother to comment. Plus bad news always travels faster than good. Bad has more horsepower.

radonicus

expectationlost wrote: »

who says rian wasn't trying to troll, the iron! lol

I don't think it was a direct attempt at trolling but it does indicate the level of engagement with the viewer and their expectations that was applied to the film.

I watched Rogue One earlier and it really puts this in the ha'penny place.

TLJ is a huge disappointment.

david75

Passed $777million globally after the weekend and on course to pass a billion by end of the year. Wonder if there’s stats on repeat viewings

david75

banie01 wrote: »

The whole film left a very poor impression. Poor story, lots of story dead ends and too many Deus ex Machina to shake a stick out....
But then again there is no coincidence only the will of the force!

The reliance on force coincidence is a tired and jaded story device that is totally over used in this movie.
I enjoyed Rogue One and TFA, but this installment..
I actually had to force myself to stay in the cinema. From the poor pacing, and plot to some very ropy CGI sequences and a moralising anti war machine stance that would have hung a lot better if it was inferred rather than driven home with a bloody sledge hammer it was just to me at least, a very disappointing installment.

From the opening scene a flight of bombers attack the dreadnought armed with free fall bombs.
Now aside from the actual nonsensical bomb release fiasco and resultant deus ex machina....
A flight of bombers dropping bombs in space?!?!?!
Because bombs do fall vertically in zero gravity!
The art of actual coherent stort telling were out the window feom the very start!?

!?!

.

There’s a sequence In empire where TIE bombers are dropping bombs in zero gravity on the asteroid in which the falcon is hiding inside the belly of a space slug creature that has atmosphere, gravity and mynoks living in it. Star Wars doesn’t do real world science. Never has.

Also the bombs in TLJs sequence are pushed out and have magnetic targeting apparently. It’s in the vehicles book for TLJ.

ebbsy

ebbsy wrote: »

Watching Rogue One now. It's a very good film.

I would left The Last Jedi half way through only for the fact I was with someone.

Where are all these good reviews coming from ?

Rogue One is awful......