Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rogue One is awful......

I think rogue one and TLJ have something in common in that they both redefine what we think Star Wars is. Really disliked it initially but what it does enhancing a new hope and adding to the overall story is really some feat.

david75

david75 wrote: »

There’s a sequence In empire where TIE bombers are dropping bombs in zero gravity on the asteroid in which the falcon is hiding inside the belly of a space slug creature that has atmosphere, gravity and mynoks living in it. Star Wars doesn’t do real world science. Never has.

Also the bombs in TLJs sequence are pushed out and have magnetic targeting apparently. It’s in the vehicles book for TLJ.

Ah here the gravity thing at the start is outrageous. It doesn't massively bother me but it's impossible to ignore. The fact that it's covered in some book doesn't excuse it. The girl kicking the ladder to get the button to drop makes a complete mockery of suspending one's disbelief. It's fine that they largely never did real world science in the past but it's never been so blatantly mishandled in our faces.

I saw the film again last night on some dodgy cam version with perfect sound. I'm surprised to say it was much better on second viewing. The comedy didn't hurt as much. The casino is reasonably brief. Luke and Rey on the island was much better rather than floundering as I first thought. Kylo still completely steals the show. Better than the dross which was Rogue One for me.

david75

david75 wrote: »

I think rogue one and TLJ have something in common in that they both redefine what we think Star Wars is. Really disliked it initially but what it does enhancing a new hope and adding to the overall story is really some feat.

Maybe I'll have to watch it again but I really, really disliked it on first viewing. A bore until the last 20 mins.

Nettle Soup

I had planned to see the TLJ at least twice but I wont bother going to see it again. I just know deep down I will leave disappointed and confused. I was convinced this one would be a classic, even the trailer gave me goosebumps. Now, I have almost stopped caring what happens to these characters.

Sad Professor

david75 wrote: »

I think rogue one and TLJ have something in common in that they both redefine what we think Star Wars is. Really disliked it initially but what it does enhancing a new hope and adding to the overall story is really some feat.

Rogue One is basically what Episode III should have been. I don't think it redefines SW, though, just tries to get back to what SW originally was before TESB redefined it as a family saga about some mystical order. My favourite thing about it is the production design. Really captures the texture of the original SW in a way that none of the other films do. The characters and narrative are seriously undercooked and it lacks ANH and TESB's sense of fun, but the third act more than makes up for those failings.

I think what TLJ does isn't so much redefining SW ether as subverting and innovating on the existing iconography and tropes of SW, freeing up the third movie to go in a genuinely new direction. Abrams talked a lot about "going backwards to go forward". Well, we're about to find out how serious he was about the second part of that statement.

Tony EH

It didn't redefine Star Wars in any way. It added to and expanded upon the 1977 film, though, and is a good example of what a prequel should be and how it should work, unlike the actual prequels, ironically. It blended perfectly into the original trilogy of films and paid careful attention to the world building that went on in them, making sure that anything new that was inserted would flowed, like Imperial security droids, TIE Strikers and Deathtroopers.

I've never understood the hate that the characters get either. Personally, I understand Jyn Erso and Cassian Andor perfectly fine. Their characters make sense, within the context of the story. Unlike Rey and Finn who never make a lick of sense. Not bloody once. But, they're "nicer" and they have some "funny" lines...hardy fuckin har. So to a modern audience, they're good "characters". :rolleyes: It amazes me that shit like Phasma is considered "cool" because she has some shiny armour, but 'Rogue One' gets criticised for its characters. I'll take Erso, Andor, Krennic and anyone else, over the likes of Phasma, Hux and Finn, every day of the week.

Also, "fun" can be had in different ways. I had a lot of fun with 'Rogue One', in that I loved it and finally got see to see a truly great Star Wars picture after 33 years, that actually invogorated my interest in the series rather than make me question why the hell I'm still watching this crap. It didn't have stupidity in it that made my teeth grind, or "jokes" that a 5 year would have cut from the script.

Agreed on what Disney wants to do with the series now. They are intent on getting rid of Star Wars, by killing off everything we know about it and recreating it as some sort of 'Guardians of the Galaxy' clone, where terrible jokey setups like Poe's Yo Mamma line is considered good "fun" and characters are "good", becasue they have a "funny" one liner always at the ready, even when they're staring down the maw of an Exogorth (thanks Wookiepedia).

Found it all to be a very middle of the road film that managed to do very little over a very long run time. It had some good ideas, a number of striking images but the script was pretty dreadful. Rey, Finn and Poe were completely wasted in thankless underwritten roles, the older cast did what they could and I think you have a real problem with your film when your script is reliant on such cheap and contrived moments as a commander informing every one of her plan bar Poe.

It felt like someone took a couple of set pieces and then played join the dots to try and make it work. Luke was good though a missed opportunity and the final set piece looked good but far too much of the film played out like you were watching someone play a not very good video game, a video game with some woeful attempts at humor.

Thinking back over the film and the moments I liked I did so in spite of the film, there's the possibility of a great film there but it needs a serious edit to remove at least an hour of unnecessary scenes and moments which added nothing. As a film it felt less like a Star Wars film as it did one of those cheap Roger Corman rip-offs that were popular in the 80s, like a lesser Battle Beyond the Stars.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

It didn't redefine Star Wars in any way. It added to and expanded upon the 1977 film, though, and is a good example of what a prequel should be and how it should work, unlike the actual prequels, ironically. It blended perfectly into the original trilogy of films and paid careful attention to the world building that went on in them, making sure that anything new that was inserted would flowed, like Imperial security droids, TIE Strikers and Deathtroopers.

I've never understood the hate that the characters get either. Personally, I understand Jyn Erso and Cassian Andor perfectly fine. Their characters make sense, within the context of the story. Unlike Rey and Finn who never make a lick of sense. Not bloody once. But, they're "nicer" and they have some "funny" lines...hardy fuckin har. So to a modern audience, they're good "characters". :rolleyes: It amazes me that shit like Phasma is considered "cool" because she has some shiny armour, but 'Rogue One' gets criticised for its characters. I'll take Erso, Andor, Krennic and anyone else, over the likes of Phasma, Hux and Finn, every day of the week.

Also, "fun" can be had in different ways. I had a lot of fun with 'Rogue One', in that I loved it and finally got see to see a truly great Star Wars picture after 33 years, that actually invogorated my interest in the series rather than make me question why the hell I'm still watching this crap. It didn't have stupidity in it that made my teeth grind, or "jokes" that a 5 year would have cut from the script.

Agreed on what Disney wants to do with the series now. They are intent on getting rid of Star Wars, by killing off everything we know about it and recreating it as some sort of 'Guardians of the Galaxy' clone, where terrible jokey setups like Poe's Yo Mamma line is considered good "fun" and characters are "good", becasue they have a "funny" one liner always at the ready, even when they're staring down the maw of an Exogorth (thanks Wookiepedia).

I'm really gonna have to watch Rogue One again. I found it utterly forgettable and superfluous. On a par with Attack of the Clones

Relikk

Deleted User wrote: »

Rogue One is awful......

Wholeheartedly disagree. It captures the look and feel of the OT perfectly and there are no faults I can find with the direction or any of the performances. The only things I dislike about R1 are Bor Gullet, the soundtrack (it's not bad overall but the main theme is weak) and CGI Tarkin and Leia but, to be honest they're technically brilliant and the mocap/voice work on both are top notch. The overall tone of desperation on behalf of the rebels is fantastically portrayed, also.

Rogue One is my favourite SW movie since ESB.

david75 wrote: »

There’s a sequence In empire where TIE bombers are dropping bombs in zero gravity on the asteroid in which the falcon is hiding inside the belly of a space slug creature that has atmosphere, gravity and mynoks living in it. Star Wars doesn’t do real world science. Never has.

Also the bombs in TLJs sequence are pushed out and have magnetic targeting apparently. It’s in the vehicles book for TLJ.

As hinted at in your last paragraph, it's all about velocity. They'd be ejected at a certain speed in a gravity environment and would keep that same velocity in a zero gravity environment.

Vladimir Poontang

I really didn't expect to find myself not caring one iota about the final film in this trilogy and this 9 part story as I do now after seeing The Last Jedi.

Acosta

Tony EH wrote: »

I've never understood the hate that the characters get either. Personally, I understand Jyn Erso and Cassian Andor perfectly fine. Their characters make sense, within the context of the story. Unlike Rey and Finn who never make a lick of sense. Not bloody once. But, they're "nicer" and they have some "funny" lines...hardy fuckin har. So to a modern audience, they're good "characters". :rolleyes: It amazes me that shit like Phasma is considered "cool" because she has some shiny armour, but 'Rogue One' gets criticised for its characters. I'll take Erso, Andor, Krennic and anyone else, over the likes of Phasma, Hux and Finn, every day of the week.

After watching those rubbish storylines for loud and irritating characters like Rey and Finn in TLJ my appreciation for characters like Jyn Erso and Cassian has only increased.

Acosta

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

I really didn't expect to find myself not caring one iota about the final film in this trilogy and this 9 part story as I do now after seeing The Last Jedi.

Ultimately this trilogy was never really meant to be made and is only here because Lucas sold the shop to Disney.

The prequels were the ones the mattered and they could not have been worse. Terrible choices all round. The direction, writing, story, casting AWFUL.

My first thought when the Disney buying Lucasfilm news broke was they should remake the prequels before doing anything else. Unlikely as it would be now, wouldn't be surprised if they considered it in the distant future.

Not looking forward to this Han Solo movie at all. There's no need for it. It will be reference central. A Ewen Mcregor Ob Wan movie would be a lot more interesting

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

It didn't redefine Star Wars in any way. It added to and expanded upon the 1977 film, though, and is a good example of what a prequel should be and how it should work, unlike the actual prequels, ironically. It blended perfectly into the original trilogy of films and paid careful attention to the world building that went on in them, making sure that anything new that was inserted would flowed, like Imperial security droids, TIE Strikers and Deathtroopers.

I've never understood the hate that the characters get either. Personally, I understand Jyn Erso and Cassian Andor perfectly fine. Their characters make sense, within the context of the story. Unlike Rey and Finn who never make a lick of sense. Not bloody once. But, they're "nicer" and they have some "funny" lines...hardy fuckin har. So to a modern audience, they're good "characters". :rolleyes: It amazes me that shit like Phasma is considered "cool" because she has some shiny armour, but 'Rogue One' gets criticised for its characters. I'll take Erso, Andor, Krennic and anyone else, over the likes of Phasma, Hux and Finn, every day of the week.

Also, "fun" can be had in different ways. I had a lot of fun with 'Rogue One', in that I loved it and finally got see to see a truly great Star Wars picture after 33 years, that actually invogorated my interest in the series rather than make me question why the hell I'm still watching this crap. It didn't have stupidity in it that made my teeth grind, or "jokes" that a 5 year would have cut from the script.

Agreed on what Disney wants to do with the series now. They are intent on getting rid of Star Wars, by killing off everything we know about it and recreating it as some sort of 'Guardians of the Galaxy' clone, where terrible jokey setups like Poe's Yo Mamma line is considered good "fun" and characters are "good", becasue they have a "funny" one liner always at the ready, even when they're staring down the maw of an Exogorth (thanks Wookiepedia).

I didn’t say that it did Tony. I said it redfined the way we think about Star Wars. Read the post again. And it definitely doesn’t blend perfectly into the OT. It’s a completely different tone feel look everything.

david75

Relikk wrote: »

Wholeheartedly disagree. It captures the look and feel of the OT perfectly and there are no faults I can find with the direction or any of the performances. The only things I dislike about R1 are Bor Gullet, the soundtrack (it's not bad overall but the main theme is weak) and CGI Tarkin and Leia but, to be honest they're technically brilliant and the mocap/voice work on both are top notch. The overall tone of desperation on behalf of the rebels is fantastically portrayed, also.

Rogue One is my favourite SW movie since ESB.



As hinted at in your last paragraph, it's all about velocity. They'd be ejected at a certain speed in a gravity environment and would keep that same velocity in a zero gravity environment.

While we’re talking real world sciences in Star Wars.

One word question.


Lightsabers?

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

I didn’t say that it did Tony. I said it redfined the way we think about Star Wars. Read the post again. And it definitely doesn’t blend perfectly into the OT. It’s a completely different tone feel look everything.

It's expanding the tone, not redefining the franchise.

For instance, it gave Vader his balls back. But, in the original 'Star Wars' Vader was feared, by all. The officers on the Death Star saw him as some relic, but they still threw caution to the wind at their peril, as one of them found out when he shot his mouth off. But, we have a clearer understanding of why Vader made people's legs quiver. But that's there already, before 'Rogue One'.

It's characterisation of the Rebel personnel, embodied by Andor is also expanding the audience's understanding of the people who populate the conflict at the heart of the original films. These are people who are willing to do what it takes to win, including gunning down their own spies.

But, to me, that grit is already present in the 1977 film, if you want to look for it. People are burned to a cinder, murdered, shot, blown to pieces, etc. It's a bloodbath...when you look at it "from a certain point of view". One of the "good" guys (actually a criminal), blows a guy away in a pub and doesn't stop to give a single fuck. It's brilliant.

The world of Star Wars is harsh, even in the original 'Star Wars'.

Personally, I don't see any "redefinition" going on in 'Rogue One', just logical expansion by a director who actually knew how to make a film that fit into the series. But, "going forward" (ugh), we most definitely will redefining happening, as Disney gradually erode what made Star Wars great in the first place and end up Marvelising the whole thing, with an insipid dilution where nobody gives a damn what's happening...but it has lots of "fun".

Jayesdiem

david75 wrote: »

Relikk wrote: »

Wholeheartedly disagree. It captures the look and feel of the OT perfectly and there are no faults I can find with the direction or any of the performances. The only things I dislike about R1 are Bor Gullet, the soundtrack (it's not bad overall but the main theme is weak) and CGI Tarkin and Leia but, to be honest they're technically brilliant and the mocap/voice work on both are top notch. The overall tone of desperation on behalf of the rebels is fantastically portrayed, also.

Rogue One is my favourite SW movie since ESB.



As hinted at in your last paragraph, it's all about velocity. They'd be ejected at a certain speed in a gravity environment and would keep that same velocity in a zero gravity environment.

While we’re talking real world sciences in Star Wars.

One word question.


Lightsabers?

That's not an appropriate example. Fantastical elements like lightsabres and gravity in a vacuum are fine as long as they are presented consistently and with logic. Lightsabres are presented that way, anti-gravity bombs and, indeed, princesses are not. What you are saying is like justifying Artoo inexplicably flying because robots don't have consciousness either way.

ps3lover

david75 wrote: »

Passed $777million globally after the weekend and on course to pass a billion by end of the year. Wonder if there’s stats on repeat viewings

No stats on repeat viewings but the second weekend drop was pretty harsh, it’s dropping harder than the rest of the series.

Relikk

ps3lover wrote: »

No stats on repeat viewings but the second weekend drop was pretty harsh, it’s dropping harder than the rest of the series.

I usually go to see a Star Wars movie in cinemas at least twice. Most of the time I'll go three times. I'm debating with myself as to whether to go and see The Last Jedi again after seeing it once, and at the moment I'm leaning towards not going again at all. For me, there are so many things in it I just don't want to see again that overshadowed the great parts and I hate feeling that way about SW. From my point of view I can definitely see why it's dropped off. They're still impressive figures for any movie, though.

Relikk

Relikk wrote: »

I usually go to see a Star Wars movie in cinemas at least twice. Most of the time I'll go three times. I'm debating with myself as to whether to go and see The Last Jedi again after seeing it once, and at the moment I'm leaning towards not going again at all. For me, there are so many things in it I just don't want to see again that overshadowed the great parts and I hate feeling that way about SW. From my point of view I can definitely see why it's dropped off. They're still impressive figures for any movie, though.

TLJ was much better on second viewing imo. You've just convinced me to give Rogue One a second viewing if it means anything.

Keplar240B

Tony EH wrote: »

.
...
One of the "good" guys (actually a criminal), blows a guy away in a pub and doesn't stop to give a single fuck. It's brilliant.

...

That was self defence.

Osmosis Jones

ps3lover wrote: »

No stats on repeat viewings but the second weekend drop was pretty harsh, it’s dropping harder than the rest of the series.

Sure who's going to the cinema on Christmas Eve?

david75

Jayesdiem wrote: »

That's not an appropriate example. Fantastical elements like lightsabres and gravity in a vacuum are fine as long as they are presented consistently and with logic. Lightsabres are presented that way, anti-gravity bombs and, indeed, princesses are not. What you are saying is like justifying Artoo inexplicably flying because robots don't have consciousness either way.

I didn’t have a problem with any of that. I was responding to a poster that had a problem with the bombs falling in in zero gravity and I was saying we’ve seen this before in Star Wars and it has in universe reasoning and that we shouldn’t question or place real world science in Star Wars it doesn’t fit. The lightsaber question was a faceitious response to it.

david75

ps3lover wrote: »

No stats on repeat viewings but the second weekend drop was pretty harsh, it’s dropping harder than the rest of the series.

This is interesting.
'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Box-Office Fatigue? Don't Be So Sure

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-dips-at-christmas-box-office-1070314?facebook_20171226

Nettle Soup

Deleted User wrote: »

Rogue One is awful......

I thought Rogue One was way better than The Last Jedi. I enjoyed Rogue One.

judeboy101

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Rogue One is awful......

I thought Rogue One was way better than The Last Jedi. I enjoyed Rogue One.

Rogue one was citizen Kane compared to TLJ

Banjaxed82

Tony EH wrote: »

It's expanding the tone, not redefining the franchise.

For instance, it gave Vader his balls back. But, in the original 'Star Wars' Vader was feared, by all. The officers on the Death Star saw him as some relic, but they still threw caution to the wind at their peril, as one of them found out when he shot his mouth off. But, we have a clearer understanding of why Vader made people's legs quiver. But that's there already, before 'Rogue One'.

It's characterisation of the Rebel personnel, embodied by Andor is also expanding the audience's understanding of the people who populate the conflict at the heart of the original films. These are people who are willing to do what it takes to win, including gunning down their own spies.

But, to me, that grit is already present in the 1977 film, if you want to look for it. People are burned to a cinder, murdered, shot, blown to pieces, etc. It's a bloodbath...when you look at it "from a certain point of view". One of the "good" guys (actually a criminal), blows a guy away in a pub and doesn't stop to give a single fuck. It's brilliant.

The world of Star Wars is harsh, even in the original 'Star Wars'.

Personally, I don't see any "redefinition" going on in 'Rogue One', just logical expansion by a director who actually knew how to make a film that fit into the series. But, "going forward" (ugh), we most definitely will redefining happening, as Disney gradually erode what made Star Wars great in the first place and end up Marvelising the whole thing, with an insipid dilution where nobody gives a damn what's happening...but it has lots of "fun".

What made Star Wars great was it's sparse appearances on the big screen. You were always left wanting. Of course I'd love to see what The Dude got up to next in the Big Lebowski, or what happened when all the Goonies got back together, but some things should be left alone. The original Star Wars trilogy should have been it.

Of course Disney will flog the fook out of it, but it
makes no difference who took the reigns after Lucas.

The law of diminishing returns kicks in. The clock has started ticking and regardless of how good they try to keep the standards, familiarity will be its undoing in the end.

froog

Disappointing. Felt like 7 or 8 writers trying to tell the story and arguing all the time. Lots of dumb moments that can’t be forgiven either; Mary poppins Leia, forcebook, yoda pissing himself as the old Jedi books burn. pointless casino quest. But chief among them is Luke’s final act being a fecking hologram and then just disappearing cause.. who knows. Oh and pointless snape or smoke or whatever with no explanation to his origins.

6/10 and that’s mostly for the as always amazing effects. Without that a 4/10. I actually think it’s the worst in the series, behind even the phantom menace.

Shakey_jake

froog wrote: »

I actually think it’s the worst in the series, behind even the phantom menace.

Oh COME ON! There's no way in hell any of the prequels are better than this, that's just silly IMO

froog

Shakey_jake wrote: »

Oh COME ON! There's no way in hell any of the prequels are better than this, that's just silly IMO

The prequels had some terrible casting and some bad dialog but at least the story was coherent and pacing was fine. Last Jedi is all over the place, full of dumb moments, pointless subplots, pointless characters. Just a mess.

froog

Also mark hamill himself is apparently pretty pissed at Luke’s character in this film one of the great jedis who overcame so much turned into a bitter bum turning his back on everything cause he failed some sniveling emo.