Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

froog

froog wrote: »

Also mark hamill himself is apparently pretty pissed at Luke’s character in this film one of the great jedis who overcame so much turned into a bitter bum turning his back on everything cause he failed some sniveling emo.

Yoda and Obi Wan did the same thing so I dunno what he's talking about

SnakePlissken

I'm not sure what I'm more surprised about whilst perusing this thread;

that a bold and beautiful movie expertly directed by, for want of a less pretentious term, an auteur and not a committee is being so swiftly lambasted,

Or that Rogue One, a dull, plodding, ugly slog of a movie that only has an admittedly rather exciting final ten minutes to it's credit is so roundly loved.

kerplun k

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I'm not sure what I'm more surprised about whilst perusing this thread;

that a bold and beautiful movie expertly directed by, for want of a less pretencious term, an auteur and not a committee is being so swiftly lambasted,

Or that Rogue One, a dull, plodding, ugly slog of a movie that only has an admittedly rather exciting final ten minutes to it's credit is so roundly loved.

Ewwwww. I was on the verge of liking that post and then I got to the bit about Jyn Erso and her crew. hisssss

froog

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I'm not sure what I'm more surprised about whilst perusing this thread;

that a bold and beautiful movie expertly directed by, for want of a less pretencious term, an auteur and not a committee is being so swiftly lambasted,

Or that Rogue One, a dull, plodding, ugly slog of a movie that only has an admittedly rather exciting final ten minutes to it's credit is so roundly loved.

I don’t know how you can compare the two films objectively and say Jedi is a better film. It’s worse in every department. I guess the presence of a few skywalkers and some porgs is enough for some people.

ebbsy

froog wrote: »

I don’t know how you can compare the two films objectively and say Jedi is a better film. It’s worse in every department. I guess the presence of a few skywalkers and some porgs is enough for some people.

+1

In Rogue one the actors can actually act and there is good action and a sense of tension.

In the Last Jedi the acting is terrible and I wanted to leave half way through.

S.M.B.

Looking back at my letterboxd scores and I've yet to rewatch any of these yet I've scored the recent movies.

TFA - 4/5
R1 - 3.5/5
TLJ - 4.5/5

Seems to be well our of sync with the general consensus in this thread.

server down

banie01 wrote: »

The whole film left a very poor impression. Poor story, lots of story dead ends and too many Deus ex Machina to shake a stick out....
But then again there is no coincidence only the will of the force!

The reliance on force coincidence is a tired and jaded story device that is totally over used in this movie.
I enjoyed Rogue One and TFA, but this installment..
I actually had to force myself to stay in the cinema. From the poor pacing, and plot to some very ropy CGI sequences and a moralising anti war machine stance that would have hung a lot better if it was inferred rather than driven home with a bloody sledge hammer it was just to me at least, a very disappointing installment.

From the opening scene a flight of bombers attack the dreadnought armed with free fall bombs.
Now aside from the actual nonsensical bomb release fiasco and resultant deus ex machina....
A flight of bombers dropping bombs in space?!?!?!
Because bombs do fall vertically in zero gravity!
The art of actual coherent stort telling were out the window feom the very start!?

!?!

.

Not sure why you spoilered that.

There is also no noise in space but there you have it.

Tigger

Jayesdiem wrote: »

That's not an appropriate example. Fantastical elements like lightsabres and gravity in a vacuum are fine as long as they are presented consistently and with logic. Lightsabres are presented that way, anti-gravity bombs and, indeed, princesses are not. What you are saying is like justifying Artoo inexplicably flying because robots don't have consciousness either way.

gravity and vaccum have littlebto donwith each other

ebbsy

ebbsy wrote: »

+1

In Rogue one the actors can actually act and there is good action and a sense of tension.

In the Last Jedi the acting is terrible and I wanted to leave half way through.

I felt there was zero tension in Rogue One since I knew how it was going to end from day one. All the characters were forgettable bar Rogue One's Tarkin fella. I don't think TLJ is much use but neither is R1. At least there was some mystery in TLJ.

SnakePlissken

froog wrote: »

I guess the presence of a few skywalkers and some porgs is enough for some people.

And here we are with the childish condescension; listen, I like many, many others truthfully enjoyed The Last Jedi, get over it.

SnakePlissken

ebbsy wrote: »

In the Last Jedi the acting is terrible

Anyone in particular you're referring to? Daisy Ridley and John Boyega performed well in my opinion.

froog

Did Rey even get any training on skelligs? She might be restarting the Jedi order with almost no training. Which is kind of dumb.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Yoda and Obi Wan did the same thing so I dunno what he's talking about

Not so much. Both had a purpose in their exile. Both were biding time. Luke is running away and being self indulgent. Very current maybe?

SnakePlissken wrote: »

that a bold and beautiful movie expertly directed by, for want of a less pretencious term, an auteur and not a committee is being so swiftly lambasted

No, "auteur" is most certainly a pretentious term. Never mind that it's inaccurate. Oh the notion that he had control sells to some, but that's mostly BS. He didn't and wouldn't have had final cut and if the script wasn't written by committee then he's not a half decent writer. And he is going by previous outings. What we saw on the screen was cleared near line by line by the producers.

It is a pretty film alright. It's bold only in the post modernist sense(PM is mostly BS anyway), but more the hard commercial, where it's not so bold at all(neat trick to convince both audiences). The whole hamfisted burn the past stuff a signal of both, but mostly the latter. And by god is it hamfisted with it's xeroxing of the first SW that was in TFA, but even more so in TLJ, where the whole "this is Disney's deal now and we're excising the original". I thought Rey is Mary Sue incarnate. And she is, but she's maybe more explainable as a cartoon Disney princess. Born not made, all she needs is the glass slippers/light sabre to be. It wouldn't shock me too much if in the last instalment she falls into a coma and Kylo Emo kisses her to wake her up...

I wouldn't mind any of that if it was good storytelling, but it really isn't. Demonstrably so. There are huge and daft plot holes throughout. And no I'm not talking of bombers in space. The slow starship chase is beyond amateur hour(and mostly to hamfist in the whole industrial military complex stuff). The rebels being down to a handful, then can fully man a base in minutes, then back to a handful. Finn being saved by yer wan, in the middle of him offering up himself as a sacrifice, just so she could go on about love? And how did they get back to safety? Yoda calling lightning down from the heavens to blow away all he stood for another daftness. On a few levels. The pacing is all over the place. The characters have little to no backstory or inner life and are all pretty much cartoons of character. They just are, drawn simply.

To paraphrase yourself SP; I'm more surprised that clearly smart folks are so eager to see this as something more than it is.

Though maybe it is informative and reflective of how much discourse in western society is going with polarisation and projection of subjective notions onto what we see. Take the Laura Dern character. One bunch of eejits see her as a "strong woman, who makes perfect decisions" another bunch of eejits see her as some "feminist token", yet if one looks at her part she's neither and both.

That's where I give the director kudos. He shoots a scene in such a way and different people have different takes from it. Though that's maybe the current audience more than him?

Though I would still see it as a commercial hatchet job on the Lucas Legacy, so that it can be expanded and mined and milked for as long a possible to a modern blockbuster audience. I do think they may have been too clever clever and pissed in the pool and audiences will be less keen. The Han Solo flic an example. It will die a death, after a good opening return. Near guaranteed. Why? Because Han's story is one that doesn't need to be told. The Kenobi on Dune Tatooine has more legs.

SnakePlissken

Wibbs wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Yoda and Obi Wan did the same thing so I dunno what he's talking about

Not so much. Both had a purpose in their exile. Both were biding time. Luke is running away and being self indulgent. Very current maybe?

SnakePlissken wrote: »

that a bold and beautiful movie expertly directed by, for want of a less pretencious term, an auteur and not a committee is being so swiftly lambasted

No, "auteur" is most certainly a pretentious term. Never mind that it's inaccurate. Oh the notion that he had control sells to some, but that's mostly BS. He didn't and wouldn't have had final cut and if the script wasn't written by committee then he's not a half decent writer. And he is going by previous outings. What we saw on the screen was cleared near line by line by the producers.

It is a pretty film alright. It's bold only in the post modernist sense(PM is mostly BS anyway), but more the hard commercial, where it's not so bold at all(neat trick to convince both audiences). The whole hamfisted burn the past stuff a signal of both, but mostly the latter. And by god is it hamfisted with it's xeroxing of the first SW that was in TFA, but even more so in TLJ, where the whole "this is Disney's deal now and we're excising the original". I thought Rey is Mary Sue incarnate. And she is, but she's maybe more explainable as a cartoon Disney princess. Born not made, all she needs is the glass slippers/light sabre to be. It wouldn't shock me too much if in the last instalment she falls into a coma and Kylo Emo kisses her to wake her up...

I wouldn't mind any of that if it was good storytelling, but it really isn't. Demonstrably so. There are huge and daft plot holes throughout. And no I'm not talking of bombers in space. The slow starship chase is beyond amateur hour(and mostly to hamfist in the whole industrial military complex stuff). The rebels being down to a handful, then can fully man a base in minutes, then back to a handful. Finn being saved by yer wan, in the middle of him offering up himself as a sacrifice, just so she could go on about love? And how did they get back to safety? Yoda calling lightning down from the heavens to blow away all he stood for another daftness. On a few levels. The pacing is all over the place. The characters have little to no backstory or inner life and are all pretty much cartoons of character. They just are, drawn simply.

To paraphrase yourself SP; I'm more surprised that clearly smart folks are so eager to see this as something more than it is.

Though maybe it is informative and reflective of how much discourse in western society is going with polarisation and projection of subjective notions onto what we see. Take the Laura Dern character. One bunch of eejits see her as a "strong woman, who makes perfect decisions" another bunch of eejits see her as some "feminist token", yet if one looks at her part she's neither and both.

That's where I give the director kudos. He shoots a scene in such a way and different people have different takes from it. Though that's maybe the current audience more than him?

Though I would still see it as a commercial hatchet job on the Lucas Legacy, so that it can be expanded and mined and milked for as long a possible to a modern blockbuster audience. I do think they may have been too clever clever and pissed in the pool and audiences will be less keen. The Han Solo flic an example. It will die a death, after a good opening return. Near guaranteed. Why? Because Han's story is one that doesn't need to be told. The Kenobi on Dune Tatooine has more legs.

You've clearly put a lot of thought into how you've received this movie so I completely respect that. It's not my objective to change people's perceptions of The Last Jedi, I just find it a huge shame that so many Star Wars fans have been left cold when in my personal opinion this far excels above the entire prequel trilogy, Rogue One, and dare I say it, A New Hope. It's all subjective anyhow, some enjoyed it, others haven't, but either way no one can call it a "safe" movie.

froog

SnakePlissken wrote: »

You've clearly put a lot of thought into how you've received this movie so I completely respect that. It's not my objective to change people's perceptions of The Last Jedi, I just find it a huge shame that so many Star Wars fans have been left cold when in my personal opinion this far excels above the entire prequel trilogy, Rogue One, and dare I say it, A New Hope. It's all subjective anyhow, some enjoyed it, others haven't, but either way no one can call it a "safe" movie.

Better than a new hope? That can only come from a non Star Wars fan to be honest, a casual fan and I mean no disrespect by that.

SnakePlissken

froog wrote: »

SnakePlissken wrote: »

You've clearly put a lot of thought into how you've received this movie so I completely respect that. It's not my objective to change people's perceptions of The Last Jedi, I just find it a huge shame that so many Star Wars fans have been left cold when in my personal opinion this far excels above the entire prequel trilogy, Rogue One, and dare I say it, A New Hope. It's all subjective anyhow, some enjoyed it, others haven't, but either way no one can call it a "safe" movie.

Better than a new hope? That can only come from a non Star Wars fan to be honest, a casual fan and I mean no disrespect by that.

Again with the patronising posts, it's beyond childish, and not that your post warrants any form of defense but, yes I most indeed am a Star Wars fan, perhaps not the most fervent, but one who's seen each movie untold times, had the toys and pyjamas as a child, and has read some, definitely not all, of the EU novels.

That you believe you have the authority to tell someone they're not a fan because they don't rate the movies in the same order as yourself is just obnoxious.

5uspect

Finally got around to seeing this tonight. I’m so disappointed; it was terrible.

Slydice

Hrmmm... hrmmm... hrmm.. I'm not sure
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=starwars8.htm

Slydice wrote: »

Anyway, looks like it's tracking the daily performance of Jurassic World after having a start like The Force Awakens.

So, if it goes the Jurassic World route, it might get to 1.6bn.... BUT... Force Awakens didn't perform well in China (around 50mn compared to JW 200mn) so that might not pan out. Although.. Rogue One might have awakened the audience there cos Rogue One was awesome and brought in 69mn.

Overall, I'd say it'll land roughly somewhere between 1.4 and 1.7bn.

The daily stats fell off a cliff this weekend. They've dropped to below or at a par to Rogue One:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=starwars2016.htm

As it's Christmas, the numbers tend to be awkward to look at so I don't think it's time to include BvS numbers into the comparison (even if the percentage drops are close).

I'd say revise down to somewhere between 1.25 and 1.5bn.

Wibbs

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I just find it a huge shame that so many Star Wars fans have been left cold when in my personal opinion this far excels above the entire prequel trilogy, Rogue One, and dare I say it, A New Hope.

Spoken like a true post modernist. I do not SP mean that as a slight BTW. It is what it is. Though I could argue from here to doomsday that you're wrong, especially on the original Star Wars flic(retconned into ANH by everyone, especially George).

It's all subjective anyhow, some enjoyed it, others haven't

Which plugs into my vague notion that it's all a reflection of the current cultural vibe and audience.

but either way no one can call it a "safe" movie.

Again, one could make an argument that it is both. "Safe" and/or "Innovative". Me? I follow the money. Cynical yes, but usually accurate.

server down

froog wrote: »

Better than a new hope? That can only come from a non Star Wars fan to be honest, a casual fan and I mean no disrespect by that.

Most fans are casual fans.

matrim

froog wrote: »

Did Rey even get any training on skelligs? She might be restarting the Jedi order with almost no training. Which is kind of dumb.

Not much but

she stole the books. They can be seen at the end when Finn gets the blanket for rose

johnny_ultimate

Well, Hamill's just gone and clarified his feelings in no uncertain terms*:

https://twitter.com/hamillhimself/status/945784443964309505

*awaits the suggestion that it is uncertain and probably Disney's doing

Vladimir Poontang

Hamill was great but the movie still terrible.

Hector Savage

Just saying ...

Hector Savage

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well, Hamill's just gone and clarified his feelings in no uncertain terms*:

https://twitter.com/hamillhimself/status/945784443964309505

*awaits the suggestion that it is uncertain and probably Disney's doing

Well it probably is , these guys can't be honest on social media - everything is carefully planned out and you can bet your ass there was a bunch of PR guys coming up with that tweet and spending hours over every last detail.

I mean look at James Cameron saying that Terminator Genesis was a great movie - I mean FFS!!!


All PR and marketing and everything with a bottom dollar target.

And I'm saying this as someone who didn't hate this film, slightly disappointed maybe but I take the positives out of it more.

johnny_ultimate

https://twitter.com/onlxn/status/943354123466002433

Also stumbled across this tweet, which I think sums up all of our respective approaches to this debate

johnny_ultimate

Hector Savage wrote: »

Well it probably is , these guys can't be honest on social media - everything is carefully planned out and you can bet your ass there was a bunch of PR guys coming up with that tweet and spending hours over every last detail.

I really don't think that's the case: both Hamill and Johnson are pretty outspoken and/or colourful on social media and in interviews, and neither gives the impression of individuals who have their every word vetted. They also interact in a way that betrays nothing in the way of lingering hostility - they seem to be on pretty flying terms if their online banter is anything to go by. If they are on iffy terms, they're doing a damn good job of masking it!

Now don't get me wrong: I'm sure there are plenty of things they've been encouraged / told not to say - no doubt there is corporate secrecy and NDAs: still remain astounded the true stories behind some of fired directors' experiences on studio films have yet to leak out. And yes, they're obviously still on promotional tour duties at the end of the day. But hell the very fact that Hamill has spoken about his experiences with such candour indicates that he has quite a bit of freedom in what he says. Mark Hamill, ultimately, has never given me the impression of someone who minces their words, and that's why I think he's one of the most likeable, down-to-earth movie stars about. If he's ever shown to be dishonest, consider a little part of me crushed

Sad Professor

Hamill has clarified his feelings several times, going back as far as June. Each time he has said pretty much the same thing. That he had serious doubts about the approach but came to realise that Johnson was right and he was wrong, i.e they had creative differences but they resolved them. It makes no difference. People will believe what they want to believe. Especially when it comes in nicely edited Youtube videos consisting of comments taken out of context. However, this isn't about what Hamill thinks and it never was. It's about the fans for whom Luke's characterisation in TLJ apparently amounts to a form of iconoclasm far worse than anything Lucas did in the prequels.

Saw it last night. There were large swathes of it that could have been removed; the Jedi Training, most of the casino escapade. Leia being able to survive in space was just ridiculous. It was a largely silly and naff movie. The Asian engineer lady is mostly annoying and twee and I'd say she's this generation of Star Wars' Jar Jar Binks. We still have no idea or explanation of who Snoke is or was. Domhnail Gleeson's main acting direction seems to have been to suck on lemons constantly and scowl. Laura Dern was so underused and I didn't understand the interaction between the two. She wasn't in FA and yet she was supposedly an old friend of Leia.

It was good, but not great. The fight scenes looked incredible in IMAX 3D.

Osmosis Jones

Nobody ever questions Luke's training but any time Rey does anything there are a thousand "where did Rey learn to do that?" comments.