Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

ibFoxer

I can't understand why there's so much hate for TLJ. Sure it's not the Star Wars we all know but is that necessarily a bad thing? I can't help but feel RJ was backed into a corner a little bit- Keep it the same and get slated, change it and get slated. I for one thought it was the ballsiest Star Wars to date and i have it right up there as one of the best.

Tony EH

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Nobody ever questions Luke's training but any time Rey does anything there are a thousand "where did Rey learn to do that?" comments.

Technically, Luke had years of study, from the moment Kenobi introduced him to the Force to when he defeated Vader and finally "became" a Jedi.

Rey woke up one morning thinking that Luke Skywalker and the Jedi were "a myth", then did mind tricks on Stormtroopers.

Bish, bash, bosh.

kerplun k

froog wrote: »

Did Rey even get any training on skelligs? She might be restarting the Jedi order with almost no training. Which is kind of dumb.

She has the books so she’ll be grand

Osmosis Jones

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Nobody ever questions Luke's training but any time Rey does anything there are a thousand "where did Rey learn to do that?" comments.

Because when Jedis can suddenly survive in space, something like Rey lifting rocks seems plausible

Wibbs

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Nobody ever questions Luke's training but any time Rey does anything there are a thousand "where did Rey learn to do that?" comments.

Because there is no journey to her at all. None.

Watch the originals again. Luke takes three films to get from gormless farm boy to Jedi. And he has many gormless incidents along the way.

If the only film that was ever made was Star Wars, he'd be one of the most lacklustre heroes in cinema. He's part of an ensemble of heroes, most of whom are better at nearly everything than him. Han's the better pilot and shot, Ben would kick his arse in a fight, Leia is in more control across the board, even Artoo has more brains. The only thing he does is blow up the Death Star and even then he needs Han and Chewie to save his neck at the last moment and Ben giving him the "use the force" speech from beyond the grave. If the first film was all there was Han would be the standout(and thinking back when I was a kid, he was the guy most wanted to be. Luke was kinda meh).

But when we finally get to the last flic in the trilogy we have been with Luke on his journey and can believe he's close to ready to take on his dad, though even then he has to go temporarily dark side to do it and the emperor nearly kills him.

Rey on the other hand is brilliant at everything from the get go. Instant superhero. Best fighter, best pilot, best engineer, best shot and instant Jedi powahs. For no good reason or backstory at all. They couldn't be any more different. She'd be pretty hard to swallow as a character in any film, but especially in that universe.

Then again none of the new crop have much of a story to them. Snoke has none, Poe similar, Finn has some but it's a bit of a one liner. Kylo about the only one with any and that's thin enough too and we're told what it is not shown. Maybe it's an audience thing too? That blockbuster audiences are more impatient than they were and need instant exposition?

conorhal

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well, Hamill's just gone and clarified his feelings in no uncertain terms*:

https://twitter.com/hamillhimself/status/945784443964309505

*awaits the suggestion that it is uncertain and probably Disney's doing

Do you doubt that half of Disney's marketing department didn't have a brain hemorrhage about Hamil's rather public misgivings and that he didn't get a, 'seriously, WTF Mark?' call from Kathleen Kennedy?
It's bad form either way to $h1t on your own movie so I'd have expected that a 'corrective' tweet would be forthcoming.

In truth I'm baffled by the fact that the REAL villian of the Starwars saga, producer Kathleen Kennedy, still has a job.
I guess that like Zach Snyder with the DCU, the studio has little choice but to back her given the fact they have bet the farm on her, and like Snyder, healthy box office numbers have so far kept her in her seat. Though the precipitous 69% second weekend boxoffice drop off for TLJ might give them cause to reconsider.
In light if that plummet, largely on the back of poor word of mouth, I'd say you can bet your next mortgage repayment on the liklihood that Hamil was 'strongly reccomended' to 'clarify his critisisms' to the fans.

Kennedy has been a disaster for the franchise, she has chopped and changed directors, reshot huge chunks of films and in the case of Solo, chopped directors and shot the entire film twice. That's some gross incompetence from the producer and guiding hand for the franchise who has clearly allowed it to roll without a plan or a clue of where it was going, so I don't understand why she's come in for so little critisism for her mismanagement of it.

johnny_ultimate

conorhal wrote: »

Do you doubt that half of Disney's marketing department didn't have a brain hemorrhage about Hamil's rather public misgivings and that he didn't get a, 'seriously, WTF Mark?' call from Kathleen Kennedy?
It's bad form either way to $h1t on your own movie so I'd have expected that a 'corrective' tweet would be forthcoming.

The thing is, he never did **** on his own movie When he expressed his reservations, it was within the context of how he overcame them and learned to appreciate his character's direction. As Sad Prof pointed out, the reservations have been taken out of said context and weaponised as 'proof' that Hamill hates the movie & character. Even if some PR department DID demand he post yesterday's tweet, it is wholly consistent with his initial position - well, beyond the obvious frustration at the life his initial remarks have taken on.

I do, incidentally, agree that Kennedy has obviously earned some raised eyebrows with her handling of the series. The blatant firing of three directors is unusual and a little bit concerning, in particular the Solo situation. No doubt she is leading the charge to have a new Star Wars film every year until they've extracted every dollar they can from the thing: not a healthy situation for any series. Still, The Last Jedi has surprised me and given me hope that strong, directorially-distinct films can still emerge from the corporate hell-land that is Disney and its vice-like grip over its highest profile acquisition.

conorhal

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The thing is, he never did **** on his own movie When he expressed his reservations, it was within the context of how he overcame them and learned to appreciate his character's direction. As Sad Prof pointed out, the reservations have been taken out of said context and weaponised as 'proof' that Hamill hates the movie & character. Even if some PR department DID demand he post yesterday's tweet, it is wholly consistent with his initial position - well, beyond the obvious frustration at the life his initial remarks have taken on.

I do, incidentally, agree that Kennedy has obviously earned some raised eyebrows with her handling of the series. The blatant firing of three directors is unusual and a little bit concerning, in particular the Solo situation. No doubt she is leading the charge to have a new Star Wars film every year until they've extracted every dollar they can from the thing: not a healthy situation for any series. Still, The Last Jedi has surprised me and given me hope that strong, directorially-distinct films can still emerge from the corporate hell-land that is Disney and its vice-like grip over its highest profile acquisition.

TBH I don't think you have to try very hard to read between the lines of Hamil's quotes, they remind me of a management course I attended where in we were taught to criticize poor performance by 'starting with a positive'.
All his criticisms have been carefully couched in that 'well, first of all, I'd like to say that your punctuallity has been excellent..' kind of way.

'Didn't Rian do well with the direction he chose to take the story in', is damning TLJ with faint praise and implicit criticism.
Like many of us, I suspect Hamil is very disapointed with the choices the franchise had made regards it's iconic characters, that at best could be considered inconsistent and at worst disrespectful.

PhiloCypher

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Nobody ever questions Luke's training but any time Rey does anything there are a thousand "where did Rey learn to do that?" comments.

Rey being skilled with a lightsaber doesn't bother be in the least (it's her using the jedi mind trick that bothers me). As an orphan she's had to learn to defend herself and I see no reason why her fighting skills with a Bo staff wouldn't translate to competency with a lightsaber.

That being said there is far more leeway in the time line of the OT to explain Luke increasing proficiency through the films then there is in the two sequel films we've gotten, which have essentially taken place in real-time .

She'll likely be a 30 something jedi master by the time ep 9 rolls around as they've left the resistance in such a pitiful state in this film that it will take years in in universe time for them to challenge the first order .

Wibbs

PhiloCypher wrote: »

That being said there is far more leeway in the time line of the OT to explain Luke increasing proficiency through the films then there is in the two sequel films we've gotten, which have essentially taken place in real-time .

Aye, though why they couldn't have stretched the timeline to make some semblance of sense is beyond me. Even if they kept the timeline they could have written it better. ANH is pretty close to real time. Luke goes from amateur pilot on Dune to X wing pilot after what, a couple of days? Though he was a pilot and good enough to be accepted into the academy.

It makes her characterisation even more ridiculous. Within essentially hours she goes from orphan scrap finder to best pilot and engineer of the Falcon, grows Han as a father figure, realises the force and Luke etc isn't a legend(which is a bit daft as only a few decades have passed) and has force visions and within another few hours is able to fend off a force mind link, use the "voice" and a few hours after that is able to force move stuff and take on a trained warrior and best him. Hours after that again she's just given the Falcon with its previous occupants seat barely cold for the important rebel mission to find Luke. All this for somebody that had just turned up in the last couple of days. It was like watching some teenaged fan penned fiction where the author made themselves the hero. It's truly awful writing.

Never mind that it rehashes the old style Disney Princess stuff, which is anything but progressive. It's also patronising and sidelines women's roles and struggles because princesses. Word to the wise Hollywood; just putting women in frontline roles isn't enough. That's only a start. It's certainly not enough to just make them male characters with boobs, or empty Mary Sue's like Rey. It's insulting and I think people will begin to realise that more and more.

It's more like big screen Marvel superhero type angle. Actually that has more legs as a comparison than it being of the SW universe. Where previously Jedi and force users were a few people with a latent talent that only came out and could be harnessed with training and effort, now apparently everybody has it(down with elitism etc) and can just do it if they have enough feelz. Burn down all the old discipline and struggle and mythos around that*.



*Very post modernist. Not a good sign as post modernism is mostly navel gazing wankology best left in philosophy classes, where teens may see it as edgy. In film it may be interesting, even clever in the right hands, but it never has heart.

david75

I’d love to know how many of us that didn’t like it, would watch it again and how much our opinion changes(if it all).

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

I’d love to know how many of us that didn’t like it, would watch it again and how much our opinion changes(if it all).

Didn't you not like it at first but has grown on you since ?

For me I was disappointed at first but still saw a lot of positive in it .

2nd time was a little better , I focused on the positives more - but still can't forgive the Snoke issue and really feel TFA was a much better movie.

Sad Professor

Some posts deleted for flagrant discussion/promotion of piracy. Please read charter, thanks.

/mod

radonicus

david75 wrote: »

I’d love to know how many of us that didn’t like it, would watch it again and how much our opinion changes(if it all).

I gave it 3/10 after I watched it the first time.

I revised it to 5/10 after watching it a second time. I was prepared for the really crap parts and could ignore them to focus on the rest of the film, which revealed really strong parts.


I'm certain I'll never consider this a good film as its flaws are so fundamental.

david75

Hector Savage wrote: »

Didn't you not like it at first but has grown on you since ?

For me I was disappointed at first but still saw a lot of positive in it .

2nd time was a little better , I focused on the positives more - but still can't forgive the Snoke issue and really feel TFA was a much better movie.

Yeah I was really blown away and not in a good way on my first viewing. But have come around to it in a big way on forther biewings. Now I love it.

It doesn’t need to be better or worse than. Just want you enjoy more. I’ll always love TFA loads but it’ll take a year or two or even until after the trilogy is complete to really place this one.

goose2005

Wibbs wrote: »

Aye, though why they couldn't have stretched the timeline to make some semblance of sense is beyond me. Even if they kept the timeline they could have written it better. ANH is pretty close to real time. Luke goes from amateur pilot on Dune to X wing pilot after what, a couple of days? Though he was a pilot and good enough to be accepted into the academy.

There was also supposed to be a scene showing him piloting the landspeeder in a race with his friends, but it was cut because they couldn't get the effects right

It makes her characterisation even more ridiculous. Within essentially hours she goes from orphan scrap finder to best pilot and engineer of the Falcon, grows Han as a father figure, realises the force and Luke etc isn't a legend(which is a bit daft as only a few decades have passed) and has force visions and within another few hours is able to fend off a force mind link, use the "voice" and a few hours after that is able to force move stuff and take on a trained warrior and best him. Hours after that again she's just given the Falcon with its previous occupants seat barely cold for the important rebel mission to find Luke. All this for somebody that had just turned up in the last couple of days. It was like watching some teenaged fan penned fiction where the author made themselves the hero. It's truly awful writing.

They literally put in a scene where Yoda says "She already knows more than every Jedi ever!"

david75

goose2005 wrote: »

There was also supposed to be a scene showing him piloting the landspeeder in a race with his friends, but it was cut because they couldn't get the effects right


They literally put in a scene where Yoda says "She already knows more than every Jedi ever!"

He doesn’t says that. At all.
He says ‘the girl Rey already possesses all that she needs to know’.

He’s talking about the books. Which she has stolen. And has put on the falcon. You see her closing the drawer after she’s put them in.
That’s why he doesn’t care about blowing the tree up. The books arent in there.

Wibbs

goose2005 wrote: »

There was also supposed to be a scene showing him piloting the landspeeder in a race with his friends, but it was cut because they couldn't get the effects right

IIRC there was another deleted scene with his childhood mate whose name escapes where he has come back from the imperial pilot school and is defecting and joining the rebels and asks Luke to come with him. They're both pilots and talented ones. Even then Han smirks at Luke when he pipes up that maybe him and ben could buy a ship cos he's a pretty good pilot.

They literally put in a scene where Yoda says "She already knows more than every Jedi ever!"

I forgot about that. Sheesh. Maybe I blocked it from my memory. No, not a Mary Sue at all...(even with the stolen books).

The main think I dislike about the film is how all over the place it is. Tonal shifts are jarring and no that's not by some "auteur" design, characters and characterisation are thinner than a Parisian runway model and many plot lines just make no sense. It is not a cohesive film and that feeling intensified after the second viewing. It also has no cohesive trajectory for a mid story of a trilogy.

That's ignoring the post modernist deconstruction of the mythos stuff. That can be more down to individual opinion alright. Though for me it's house brick in your face obvious and shallow and marketing cynicism.

david75

Wibbs wrote: »

IIRC there was another deleted scene with his childhood mate whose name escapes where he has come back from the imperial pilot school and is defecting and joining the rebels and asks Luke to come with him. They're both pilots and talented ones. Even then Han smirks at Luke when he pipes up that maybe him and ben could buy a ship cos he's a pretty good pilot.


I forgot about that. Sheesh. Maybe I blocked it from my memory. No, not a Mary Sue at all...(even with the stolen books).

The main think I dislike about the film is how all over the place it is. Tonal shifts are jarring and no that's not by some "auteur" design, characters and characterisation are thinner than a Parisian runway model and many plot lines just make no sense. It is not a cohesive film and that feeling intensified after the second viewing. It also has no cohesive trajectory for a mid story of a trilogy.

That's ignoring the post modernist deconstruction of the mythos stuff. That can be more down to individual opinion alright. Though for me it's house brick in your face obvious and shallow and marketing cynicism.

Can the Mary Sue brigade just give this a quick read.
The film is called the force awakens. There's our first clue.

-Finn and Rey escape the ties on Jakku and Finn asks her How did you do that? And she replies she doesn’t know she’s flown before but never like that
-the lightsaber calls to her and later comes to her
-she escapes and we see kylo saying ‘she’s just beginning to test her powers’.
-Finn asks her How did you escape? She replies You wouldn’t believe me
She then beats kylo in a duel


Cut to TLJ and she tells Luke something has always been inside me, now it’s awake. And then shortly after Luke senses and sees first hand how powerful she is.


If after all that you still don’t understand how she’s so powerful (hint. She doesn’t understand either. It’s just Awakened in her and she’s struggling to process. This is the point!!!) then you’re missing the point of her arc and the point of the story thus far.

The Mary Sue thing is people either willingly or unknowingly missing the point and or not paying attention.

johnny_ultimate

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Someone said to me today that they feel the people that genuinely love this film are not Star Wars fans but casuals, they type that enjoy Michael Bay movies. I'd have to agree. It's not as bad as the prequels but pretty terrible at the same time. It's a mess.

Mod note: OK folks I think we've been tolerant enough of these types of utterly condescending comments, but it's making the thread extremely unpleasant to read and participate in. We have this laid out in the charter for a reason.

No doubt people have strong feelings about this film, but regardless of whether you liked it or not, talk about the film itself and not the people who disagree with you. This goes all ways, regardless of your thoughts on the film. We don't want to start handing out warnings or bans, but this sort of nonsense won't be tolerated from here on out: if you can't discuss it in a civil way, then we'll have to issue cards. Thanks.

J Mysterio

Just came out of it now. Initial feelings are it was a bit too long and a bit disjointed. Dissapointed that Luke wasnt better used in this and Chewie was basically just a pilot.

Vladimir Poontang

david75 wrote: »

Can the Mary Sue brigade just give this a quick read.
The film is called the force awakens. There's our first clue.

-Finn and Rey escape the ties on Jakku and Finn asks her How did you do that? And she replies she doesn’t know she’s flown before but never like that
-the lightsaber calls to her and later comes to her
-she escapes and we see kylo saying ‘she’s just beginning to test her powers’.
-Finn asks her How did you escape? She replies You wouldn’t believe me
She then beats kylo in a duel


Cut to TLJ and she tells Luke something has always been inside me, now it’s awake. And then shortly after Luke senses and sees first hand how powerful she is.


If after all that you still don’t understand how she’s so powerful (hint. She doesn’t understand either. It’s just Awakened in her and she’s struggling to process. This is the point!!!) then you’re missing the point of her arc and the point of the story thus far.

The Mary Sue thing is people either willingly or unknowingly missing the point and or not paying attention.

It might be their point...but it's a stupid, lazy and badly thought out one.

david75

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

It might be their point...but it's a stupid, lazy and badly thought out one.

Really? Vast majority of Star Wars fans loved it. And in your own words

‘Yeah I'd put a lot more in what the actual fans think. Shock horror.’

DrWu

Just come back from 3rd viewing. Love it love it love. There's no point arguing with people who don't like this movie so I'm not going to. I was a fan from the very start, I had the star wars bedspreads and lunch boxes etc. But this one really did it for me. Cant wait to see where episode 9 goes, just a pity Johnson wont be at the helm.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Can the Mary Sue brigade just give this a quick read.
The film is called the force awakens. There's our first clue.

-Finn and Rey escape the ties on Jakku and Finn asks her How did you do that? And she replies she doesn’t know she’s flown before but never like that
-the lightsaber calls to her and later comes to her
-she escapes and we see kylo saying ‘she’s just beginning to test her powers’.
-Finn asks her How did you escape? She replies You wouldn’t believe me
She then beats kylo in a duel

Cut to TLJ and she tells Luke something has always been inside me, now it’s awake. And then shortly after Luke senses and sees first hand how powerful she is.

If after all that you still don’t understand how she’s so powerful (hint. She doesn’t understand either. It’s just Awakened in her and she’s struggling to process. This is the point!!!) then you’re missing the point of her arc and the point of the story thus far.

The Mary Sue thing is people either willingly or unknowingly missing the point and or not paying attention.

But, it's not just the Force she's an ace at. It's everything else she's encountered too.

She's a great pilot, a great engineer, a great fighter, a great linguist, etc...ad nauseum.

There has been, literally, NO challenge she hasn't stuffed yet.

And all this from a 20 something orphan, who lives in the arse of an AT AT on a remote shithole, that makes Tatooine look like a bustling urban expanse and who has has to scavange scrap for some fat twat, despite having ridiculous abilities that could get her a better job in a second.

There is just no scenario possible that would allow for all of that accumulation of knowledge and skill, other than "just becasue..." It DOES come across like it was written by a 10 year old in their bedroom.

Also, the "Mary Sue" thing is accurate, if we take the definition of a Mary Sue as:

...an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment. They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience.

Rey fits that bills all the way.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

But, it's not just the Force she's an ace at. It's everything else she's encountered too.

She's a great pilot, a great engineer, a great fighter, a great linguist, etc...ad nauseum.

There has been, literally, NO challenge she hasn't stuffed yet.

And all this from a 20 something orphan, who lives in the arse of an AT AT on a remote shithole, that makes Tatooine look like a bustling urban expanse and who has has to scavange scrap for some fat twat, despite having ridiculous abilities that could get her a better job in a second.

There is just no scenario possible that would allow for all of that accumulation of knowledge and skill, other than "just becasue..." It DOES come across like it was written by a 10 year old in their bedroom.

Also, the "Mary Sue" thing is accurate, if we take the definition of a Mary Sue as:



Rey fits that bills all the way.

She’s been working as a scavenger for almost her entire life and trading at a space port with multiple species passing through. Stands to reason she Can do all these things. She also tells us she’s a pilot Early in the film.
She would have and has clearly had to learn how to defend herself hence th staff constantly be her side.
None of that is good enough though.
The Mary Sue thing is as obnoxious and flawed an accusation as they come.
Luke hears about the force on Wednesday and on Friday has mastery of it enough to blow up a Death Star. With no explanation or reasoning given yet we never challenge it. Anakin aged 9 can fly pod racers and is the only human able to do it yet nobody questions it. Mary Sue is only ever marched out by those who don’t like the film as a whole and need any argument no matter how flawed and easily disproven, as with Rey, to make their point. The hidden agenda here is based in sexism and misogyny imo.

Find a new better argument lads. This one is too easily taken apart. It’s not hard.


Another example of it. Holdo withholding the plan from Poe.

If Holdo had been a male nobody would blink at him withholding the plan.
Inbuilt misogyny on a lot of fronts.

Andrew Beef

goose2005 wrote: »

There was also supposed to be a scene showing him piloting the landspeeder in a race with his friends, but it was cut because they couldn't get the effects right


They literally put in a scene where Yoda says "She already knows more than every Jedi ever!"

That was an excellent scene. Luke Skywalker criticises the Jedi for arrogance and hubris. Yoda makes the very valid point that the important aspects of being a Jedi cannot be found in books.

TLJ is a very enjoyable movie; I give it 7.5-8.0/10.

micks_address

conorhal wrote: »

Do you doubt that half of Disney's marketing department didn't have a brain hemorrhage about Hamil's rather public misgivings and that he didn't get a, 'seriously, WTF Mark?' call from Kathleen Kennedy?
It's bad form either way to $h1t on your own movie so I'd have expected that a 'corrective' tweet would be forthcoming.

In truth I'm baffled by the fact that the REAL villian of the Starwars saga, producer Kathleen Kennedy, still has a job.
I guess that like Zach Snyder with the DCU, the studio has little choice but to back her given the fact they have bet the farm on her, and like Snyder, healthy box office numbers have so far kept her in her seat. Though the precipitous 69% second weekend boxoffice drop off for TLJ might give them cause to reconsider.
In light if that plummet, largely on the back of poor word of mouth, I'd say you can bet your next mortgage repayment on the liklihood that Hamil was 'strongly reccomended' to 'clarify his critisisms' to the fans.

Kennedy has been a disaster for the franchise, she has chopped and changed directors, reshot huge chunks of films and in the case of Solo, chopped directors and shot the entire film twice. That's some gross incompetence from the producer and guiding hand for the franchise who has clearly allowed it to roll without a plan or a clue of where it was going, so I don't understand why she's come in for so little critisism for her mismanagement of it.

Comparing the dc disaster with what star wars has done? Makes no sense in terms of box-office. Batman versus superman was just stupid.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/27/as-the-last-jedi-tops-800m-is-star-wars-beyond-saving/amp/

david75

Also is Han not a Mary Sue? He’s an expert pilot who can out run imperial Star destroyers somehow. How? We’ve only his word for it and then he does it? How? No proof we see of any of his experience doing it yet he does, and yet he isn’t a Mary Sue?

And somehow he can talk to a dog?
How can he talk to a dog? Presumably he’s done it before?
So we just accept it in his case, but we don’t in Reys?

You don’t see the problems with this?

david75

david75 wrote:

If Holdo had been a male nobody would blink at him withholding the plan. Inbuilt misogyny on a lot of fronts.

Come on, that is such a pathetic defense of what is a pretty awful plot point. Male, female, alien, it wouldn't matter, it would still be an example of pretty awful plotting.