Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Come on, that is such a pathetic defense of what is a pretty awful plot point. Male, female, alien, it wouldn't matter, it would still be an example of pretty awful plotting.

He’s lost the trust of his leaders. Twice! To disastrous effect. Would you have told him the plan? Seriously?

Cookie_Monster

J Mysterio wrote: »

Just came out of it now. Initial feelings are it was a bit too long and a bit disjointed. Dissapointed that Luke wasnt better used in this and Chewie was basically just a pilot.

+1. It seriously dragged and dragged and dragged.
Mess of a film and a disappointing addition to Star Wars.

david75

david75 wrote:

He’s lost the trust of his leaders. Twice! To disastrous effect. Would you have told him the plan? Seriously?

Considering that he's an integral part of the Resistance then yes. If it was a case that no one was told then fine but it seemed like most of the ship knew about it bar a handful, the handful of people engaged in a dumb plan that ended up killing thousands of people.

Sad Professor

micks_address wrote: »

Comparing the dc disaster with what star wars has done? Makes no sense in terms of box-office. Batman versus superman was just stupid.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/27/as-the-last-jedi-tops-800m-is-star-wars-beyond-saving/#2ed393f56962

Key section from that article:

And if it doesn't completely die, it may be looking at over/under Jurassic World ($652 million) and Titanic ($658m), or about the same 30% drop as The Empire Strikes Back and Attack of the Clones compared to Star Wars and The Phantom Menace.
[...]
Well, aside from the whole "Star Wars sequels never do as well as Star Wars originals" thing, it may just be that The Force Awakens was an exception in that it got a May/June/July-level opening weekend and December-style legs to match. As a general rule, big movies that open in December trade a maximum debut frame for longer and leggier runs. The Force Awakens snagged an opening three times bigger than the previous December record (The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey's $84 million in 2012), but had one of the leggiest runs ever for a $100m+ opener.

I'm sure the negative online reaction did contribute to the second week drop. But I also think fear of spoilers meant people were more likely to go in the first week. As a sequel to an existing film, which many people didn't like, it was never going to do the same business as TFA.

Not that box office should be considered a measure of quality. As mentioned above, TESB made a little over 2/3rds what ANH made and was the weakest box office performer of the OT. Does that mean people thought TESB was a disappointment? Of course not.

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Considering that he's an integral part of the Resistance then yes. If it was a case that no one was told then fine but it seemed like most of the ship knew about it bar a handful, the handful of people engaged in a dumb plan that ended up killing thousands of people.

That wasn’t the point though. The point was to show Poes journey from being a hot head pilot who acts before thinking ending in disaster to getting him to a point in the end where he’s taught there’s serious repercussions to acting on impulse and teaching him how to be a leader by acting like one in the end. It succeeds in that. He has to learn through his failures. Everyone in the film does, it’s a running theme throughout.

david75

david75 wrote:

That wasn’t the point though. The point was to show Poes journey from being a hot head pilot who acts before thinking ending in disaster to getting him to a point in the end where he’s taught there’s serious repercussions to acting on impulse and teaching him how to be a leader by acting like one in the end. It succeeds in that. He has to learn through his failures. Everyone in the film does, it’s a running theme throughout.

A good writer could do that without using such a cheap and plain dumb idea. All he learnt from his failures is to be a good lil boy and do as he is told. It makes no sense for them to tell everyone but him the plan, it's just one example of poor writing from a script full of awful writing in which characters do dumb illogical things to serve the plot.

micks_address

Sad Professor wrote: »

Key section from that article:



I'm sure the negative online reaction did contribute to the second week drop. But I also think fear of spoilers meant people were more likely to go in the first week. As a sequel to an existing film, which many people didn't like, it was never going to do the same business as TFA.

Not that box office should be considered a measure of quality. As mentioned above, TESB made a little over 2/3rds what ANH made and was the weakest box office performer of the OT. Does that mean people thought TESB was a disappointment? Of course not.

Screening I was attending today was full. It's a film I'd like to watch again. Some parts annoyed me like floating leia and the point of snoke and the fight afterwards with the red guards.. Cool and all as it was wouldn't they have just fallen in line with ren..

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A good writer could do that without using such a cheap and plain dumb idea. All he learnt from his failures is to be a good lil boy and do as he is told. It makes no sense for them to tell everyone but him the plan, it's just one example of poor writing from a script full of awful writing in which characters do dumb illogical things to serve the plot.

I don’t see how else it could be done in his case while staying within the themes of the film. There’s any amount of that throughout any series. Star Wars included.

Funny enough Rose is the only person who succeeds in her mission in the whole film. She says on canto bight ‘id love to smash a fist through this place’ and then goes onto totally wreck the place. I can’t think of anyone else in the film who succeeds.

david75

david75 wrote:

I don’t see how else it could be done in his case while staying within the themes of the film. There’s any amount of that throughout any series. Star Wars included.

A good writer would have found a way to do it that didn't feel like a cheap and contrived cop out. I enjoyed the film as a middle of the road blockbuster, it's a kids film and as such the writing isn't expected to be great but then again when you have Pixar delivering some of the most mature and intelligent films around there is no reason for The Last Jedi to be so blandly written. The film feels like cinema by committee, it's safe and never really takes any risks but then again the franchise was never really know for being anything other than pulpy, easy to watch fare.

Sad Professor

david75 wrote: »

Also is Han not a Mary Sue? He’s an expert pilot who can out run imperial Star destroyers somehow. How? We’ve only his word for it and then he does it? How? No proof we see of any of his experience doing it yet he does, and yet he isn’t a Mary Sue?

And somehow he can talk to a dog?
How can he talk to a dog? Presumably he’s done it before?
So we just accept it in his case, but we don’t in Reys?

You don’t see the problems with this?

On the "Mary Sue" stuff: Max Landis, who first used the term (incorrectly as many tried to point out at the time) to describe Rey, has since rowed back on it and admits its a sexist term.

"It’s very easy to take dumb and horrible **** I said six years ago, and trot it out every time there’s a new article about me," Landis tells Newsweek." They never engage with me about it. If you want to talk to me about the Force Awakens stuff, I’m here to talk about it."

When pressed to do just that, Landis admitted he did regret the now-infamous Force Awakens tweet, but stands by his original sentiment. "I regret framing it that way. I didn’t understand that the term 'Mary Sue' had been co-opted," he said.

And here's what Daisy Ridley thinks:

Anyway, I get the impression most people kinda accept this now and are moving on from it which is good to see.

Varik

Mary Sue isn't a sexist term, people should go back and read any of the young adult books they thought were great back in the day and say it isn't true.

Deleted User wrote: »

A good writer could do that without using such a cheap and plain dumb idea. All he learnt from his failures is to be a good lil boy and do as he is told. It makes no sense for them to tell everyone but him the plan, it's just one example of poor writing from a script full of awful writing in which characters do dumb illogical things to serve the plot.

Kinda stupid that the only reason that they could run at all in the end was that Poe did destroy that Dreadnought which would have followed and likely been able to destroy them at range.

I don't think they did tell many people, you had a large number who did try to jump ship and then all those who did join poe. Personally before they introduced the magic hyperspace tracker I thought she was a traitor.

Sad Professor

david75 wrote: »

I don’t see how else it could be done in his case while staying within the themes of the film. There’s any amount of that throughout any series. Star Wars included.

Funny enough Rose is the only person who succeeds in her mission in the whole film. She says on canto bight ‘id love to smash a fist through this place’ and then goes onto totally wreck the place. I can’t think of anyone else in the film who succeeds.

As an aside, that was my favourite line in the film. I think the full line is: “I wish I could put my fist through this whole lousy, beautiful town”.

Wibbs

david75 wrote: »

Cut to TLJ and she tells Luke something has always been inside me, now it’s awake. And then shortly after Luke senses and sees first hand how powerful she is.


If after all that you still don’t understand how she’s so powerful (hint. She doesn’t understand either. It’s just Awakened in her and she’s struggling to process. This is the point!!!) then you’re missing the point of her arc and the point of the story thus far.

The Mary Sue thing is people either willingly or unknowingly missing the point and or not paying attention.

Not really D, it's extremely hard to ignore the Mary Sue aspect because the character fits the description to a tee. To the degree that one could point to her character as a near letter perfect example of one in popular culture. I honestly can't think of a better example.

Again my point is that in this retcon Star Wars universe the Force has become an overnight superpower. It's more (mainstream blockbuster, TV is more subtle. Generally)Marvel than Star Wars. It's not as it was, something that was there in the background, something that some could plug into and with training, often years of training, utilise it. In a way force users were an elite and the notion of any kind of natural elite is out of fashion in some quarters. It was also a tradition, again something out of fashion in some quarters.

david75 wrote: »

The Mary Sue thing is as obnoxious and flawed an accusation as they come.

It's really not D as it is there to see up on the screen. Repeatedly. I dunno how it could be construed as "obnoxious" either? Maybe if the hoary old defence of it is coming down to "sexism". On that front I don't "buy" Ren much either. A little more than Rey, but not by much. Poe is a caricature. I had hopes for Finn as he could have been a more complex character, but now it seems he's more a bit player, which is a pity. (having him as a soldier who had done terrible things, but sought redemption an obvious one. But no, have the black guy as a janitor on his first Stormtrooper mission. Jesus)

Luke hears about the force on Wednesday and on Friday has mastery of it enough to blow up a Death Star. With no explanation or reasoning given yet we never challenge it.

Nope. There is explanation and reasoning. A) he's a long time pilot good enough to be accepted into the Imperial academy. when at the briefing somebody mentions the size of the port and the impossibility of hitting, he comes back that it's not much bigger than some local fauna he used to hunt(bad Luke) and hit on the regular. C) He doesn't do it alone. Vader swoops in and hits him and fries R2 and has him in his sights ready to blow him to atoms, only for the Falcon to swoop in and save him and Ben does the old force ghost encouragement. Only then does he hit it. As for his mastery of the force? He is easily bested by a training hover bot and even when starting to get it, is still clumsy. He spends most of the flic on his arse, or about to be, until Ben, Leia and Han save him. He's just as flawed in the next outing and again needs much more help. Comparing him to Rey just doesn't stack up.

Anakin aged 9 can fly pod racers and is the only human able to do it yet nobody questions it.

Well they do, because that's the very bit that gets Liam Neeson initially interested in him and how he can do that.

Mary Sue is only ever marched out by those who don’t like the film as a whole and need any argument no matter how flawed and easily disproven, as with Rey, to make their point.

I;ve yet to see any argument that effectively disproves it. Including yours D

The hidden agenda here is based in sexism and misogyny imo.

Annnnnnd here we go... Of late I have found too often when an argument fails to pass muster on merit it's an almost guaranteed run to some "ist" or other. It's the debate tactic de jour and IMHO a really lazy argument and insulting with it and right up there shoulder to shoulder with crying "snowflake" as another silly argument rebuttal.

Find a new better argument lads. This one is too easily taken apart. It’s not hard.

Clearly it is D.

Another example of it. Holdo withholding the plan from Poe.

If Holdo had been a male nobody would blink at him withholding the plan.
Inbuilt misogyny on a lot of fronts.

Again with the "misogyny". It would be just as daft if it were a man. Though on that score one could argue that it wouldn't be. Almost all the men in this SW universe are pretty much screwups. Han was an absent father and husband who never grew up, Finn spent the first outing as lovestruck comic relief, coming back this time as a side part, who when he does decide to make a sacrifice is "saved" by the Rose wan, because "love" or something(screw all the people he might have saved with his sacrifice. Doesn't matter to selfish Rose), Poe is cardboard cutout silly little hothead boy, but we'll keep him around *pat head*, Ren is teenaged angst in a 30 odd year old man's body, constantly throwing childish tantrums, Hux a preening idiot(how the hell did he get to the top and no Snoke's explanation doesn't cut it) and Luke is a wasted old man failure contemplating subuku for the last few decades, drinking milk from sea creature nipples. The only male character I can think of in control and making things happen is Del Toro's guy. And he's at best an antihero, but more a cynical baddie.

So if we were to examine how men and women are viewed in this SW universe, which gender comes across as worse by default? Even at that I wouldn't pull the lazy "sexism" angle. It is what it is and more a current meme. Just like the opposite was a current meme back in the day. Leia was pretty well drawn as a character in the first outing, but all too sadly went all gooey eyed lovestruck in the second(for me the biggest flaw in ESB). Clawed some of that moxy back in the third outing.

Andrew Beef wrote: »

That was an excellent scene. Luke Skywalker criticises the Jedi for arrogance and hubris. Yoda makes the very valid point that the important aspects of being a Jedi cannot be found in books.

Again more of this "tradition is bad and all you need to do is feel" stuff. Consider this; in the SW universe the Jedi and their tradition have kept the peace for thousands of years, with an imperial interlude that lasted one lifetime, if that. And then went back to peace, because of one "last Jedi" and his quest for his father's redemption. That's a pretty good track record. But no, set against that Yoda and Luke reckon, nah, burn it all. It wasn't much use anyway. That would be like the world getting rid of democracy because Hitler got voted in.

david75 wrote: »

Also is Han not a Mary Sue? He’s an expert pilot who can out run imperial Star destroyers somehow. How? We’ve only his word for it and then he does it? How? No proof we see of any of his experience doing it yet he does, and yet he isn’t a Mary Sue?

And somehow he can talk to a dog?
How can he talk to a dog? Presumably he’s done it before?
So we just accept it in his case, but we don’t in Reys?

You don’t see the problems with this?

Eh... no. This is really basic story stuff. He's painted as a long term smuggler who has jostled with the empire and others out to get him and escaped them. The majority of the time. The Falcon has been in his and Chewie's possession for years and he and Chewie tweaked it. And he has Chewie. He's not on his own. And the "dog" is his very longterm friend and they have shared many years and experiences together, so of course they understand each other(note that Rey understands droid, yet Luke needs 3PO, or the X Wings computer to understand R2(until this flic). That established his provenance and abilities and backstory. You really can't honestly hope to compare the two.

Funny enough Rose is the only person who succeeds in her mission in the whole film. She says on canto bight ‘id love to smash a fist through this place’ and then goes onto totally wreck the place.

Yeah, go Rose. Free the cute animals, but the child slaves? Nope they're still there.

Wibbs

Sad Professor wrote: »

And here's what Daisy Ridley thinks:

"Thinks" is a bit strong a term. She basically pulls the "sexism" angle, which is aimed to shutdown any response. And there are male examples. Superman an obvious one.

Landis admitted he did regret the now-infamous Force Awakens tweet, but stands by his original sentiment. "I regret framing it that way. I didn’t understand that the term 'Mary Sue' had been co-opted,"

So he still believes she is a "Mary Sue", but is dialling back because actual sexist muppets have used the term? Have we really come to the stage when if one political bunch of eejits uses an objectively descriptive term, another political bunch of eejits cries fowl and that objectively descriptive term is then verboten? NewSpeak indeed. Bloody hell.

Anyway, I get the impression most people kinda accept this now and are moving on from it which is good to see.

Is that a hope, or an argument? Genuine question BTW.

NIMAN

I saw it again today for viewing number 2.

Took my son.

I had written on here how I was dreading it, worried I might fall asleep.

But I have to admit, it was better on the 2nd viewing. Much better than I remember.

I think I saw past the silly bits and the silly gags this time, and outside of these it's generally a fairly enjoyable film. Yes the Can't Bight section is still poor, but I enjoyed the remainder of it more


Can't remember what I scored it earlier, think maybe a 5. Now I'd review my score up to a 7. I think with about 30mins edited out, I could see it as a 7,5 eventually

Varik

Luke was more of a watson than a mary sue in the first film in any case. All for rey being a better fighter and nothing she did there was out of left field.

Wibbs wrote: »

I had hopes for Finn as he could have been a more complex character, but now it seems he's more a bit player, which is a pity. (having him as a soldier who had done terrible things, but sought redemption an obvious one. But no, have the black guy as a janitor on his first Stormtrooper mission. Jesus)

Really hated the janitor thing, he's a stormtrooper an elite (supposedly even in the originals) solider and from what's been said greater than those of the empire but he's also a janitor.

They could have just made this his first posting and have him a bit raw. Also hate the fact they've got him running away at the start of 2 films.

He's still got my favourite line in the film.

Drumpot

NIMAN wrote: »

I saw it again today for viewing number 2.

Took my son.

I had written on here how I was dreading it, worried I might fall asleep.

But I have to admit, it was better on the 2nd viewing. Much better than I remember.

I think I saw past the silly bits and the silly gags this time, and outside of these it's generally a fairly enjoyable film. Yes the Can't Bight section is still poor, but I enjoyed the remainder of it more


Can't remember what I scored it earlier, think maybe a 5. Now I'd review my score up to a 7. I think with about 30mins edited out, I could see it as a 7,5 eventually

I’m bringing my kids again to savoy 1 (for nostalgia). I really think bringing kids helps if you can enjoy it for them!

NIMAN

I enjoyed it myself. I hardly took him on during the film, except to ask him if he needed the toilet!

He seemed to really enjoy it. Looking on it with less cynical eyes I'm sure.

david75

Wibbs wrote: »

"Thinks" is a bit strong a term. She basically pulls the "sexism" angle, which is aimed to shutdown any response. And there are male examples. Superman an obvious one.

So he still believes she is a "Mary Sue", but is dialling back because actual sexist muppets have used the term? Have we really come to the stage when if one political bunch of eejits uses an objectively descriptive term, another political bunch of eejits cries fowl and that objectively descriptive term is then verboten? NewSpeak indeed. Bloody hell.

Is that a hope, or an argument? Genuine question BTW.

Everything you just said about Han applies directly and fits perfectly to Rey. I’m baffled how you don’t see it. And if an actual bunch of sexist morons insist on using a term I’d be distancing myself from it and finding a better term tbh

Wibbs

david75 wrote: »

Everything you just said about Han applies directly and fits perfectly to Rey.

No. It really bloody well doesn't D. Han is a flawed character. Doesn't believe in the force, more into blast first, ask questions later. Not exactly reliable either. Numerous times. Established pilot with backstory. Rogue, quick to use a blaster when needs must(Gweedo fired first..) and spice(thanks Dune) smuggler par excellence, with hidey holes to match. I could expand further on the why, but at this stage I feel I'd be I'd be better served making snow angels on Hoth.

I’m baffled how you don’t see it.

The bafflement goes both ways Sir, I can assure you.

And if an actual bunch of sexist morons insist on using a term I’d be distancing myself from it and finding a better term tbh

Even if the term objectively fits? So terms are off the table if they don't agree with one's socio-political worldview? Good god man. One lot are as worse as the other. Oh and you still haven't come within a Bantha's roar of a rebuttal to my points. Oh yes, I went full nerd there.

I suppose and as I mused earlier, this flic is the perfect reflection on Western society and where it is now. It's an easily digested film for the don't give a damn, looks familiar, pass the popcorn, but polarising to the nth degree for those who may give a damn. And on that score it is an important film, but maybe not in the way intended.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

Also is Han not a Mary Sue? He’s an expert pilot who can out run imperial Star destroyers somehow. How? We’ve only his word for it and then he does it? How? No proof we see of any of his experience doing it yet he does, and yet he isn’t a Mary Sue?

And somehow he can talk to a dog?
How can he talk to a dog? Presumably he’s done it before?
So we just accept it in his case, but we don’t in Reys?

You don’t see the problems with this?

Not sure. In the Hans second or third scene in the movie we see that he is in trouble with Jabba over a bothced smuggling job.

He makes a bit of a mess with the rescue mission on the Death Star and Leia takes charge and she criticises his competency, right?

He seems to be only in it for the money at first.

Then there's the whole frozen in carbonite and needs friends to rescue him situation.

I think Rey is a very different character who is designed to drive the movie forward like a theme park ride. She can do whatever needs to be done to get us through set piece A and then set piece B and so on. There is no character development and that's probably deliberate.

TFA and TLJ would be much slower movies if we had to take time out for Rey to learn her shortcomings and then overcome them.

She's a pretty uninteresting character but she finds herself in interesting situations and takes us, the audience, through them quickly and effortlessly and with an attitude that is endearing.

She's the hero version of Darth Maul maybe.

The original characters had more depth and complexity. In my opinion.

Saruhashi

Sad Professor wrote: »

On the "Mary Sue" stuff: Max Landis, who first used the term (incorrectly as many tried to point out at the time) to describe Rey, has since rowed back on it and admits its a sexist term.

Anyway, I get the impression most people kinda accept this now and are moving on from it which is good to see.

Totally agree. Rey is not a "Mary Sue". She's just an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. A character that I recognize as an audience insert who is used for wish fulfillment rather than character development. I recognise that she can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given her amount of training or experience.

I heard that sexists on the Internet are all drinking "water" these days. Thats why I imbibe H2O, in it's liquid state, instead.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Also is Han not a Mary Sue? He’s an expert pilot who can out run imperial Star destroyers somehow. How? We’ve only his word for it and then he does it? How? No proof we see of any of his experience doing it yet he does, and yet he isn’t a Mary Sue?

And somehow he can talk to a dog?
How can he talk to a dog? Presumably he’s done it before?
So we just accept it in his case, but we don’t in Reys?

You don’t see the problems with this?

This is ridiculous David.

Try again.

Tony EH

Varik wrote: »

Mary Sue isn't a sexist term, people should go back and read any of the young adult books they thought were great back in the day and say it isn't true.

It's gas how people think this somehow a sexist thing. Baffling.

Chris_Heilong

The term 'Mary sue' came from Star Trek fan fiction forums to describe a totally unrealistically perfect character. 100% Rey is a Mary Sue now, she was in TFA but there was hope that TLJ would flesh her out and give some logic as to why she was the way she is but alas it just confirms Mary Sue is all she is.

Here is a video that shows what a New hope would be like if Luke was a Mary Sue.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Late to the party.

First film I ever saw was A New Hope in 1977 in Savoy One aged four, went a further 13 times.

Loved Rogue One and think Revenge of the Sith is the best of the entire saga (sorry).

What will I think of "Jedi""?

Tony EH

Varik wrote: »

Really hated the janitor thing, he's a stormtrooper an elite (supposedly even in the originals) solider and from what's been said greater than those of the empire but he's also a janitor.

They could have just made this his first posting and have him a bit raw. Also hate the fact they've got him running away at the start of 2 films.

He's still got my favourite line in the film.

I hate Finn. One of the absolute worst Star Wars characters ever. He's ridiculous from beginning to end and the writing surrounding him just makes things worse. Supposedly, these stormtroopers are taken from families at birth (really fucking dumb, why can't they just be enlisted men, like Empire stormtroopers?), but apparently Finn and the rest of the First Order have been doing bugger all for over 20 years. Really? Doing nothing to arouse suspicion? FOR 20+ YEARS? But still squirreling away on the death star 3.0 and a massive fleet and nobody cares? Except for Leia's nebulous "resistance"? Who've also done bugger all as well it seems.

It's wretched writing.

Finn should have been a battle hardened veteran. Done some really shitty things and been haunted by them in an irregular terrorist organisation that shown to have been a serious threat to the people of this galaxy. Who finally listens to the little voice in his head and jumps ship, a broken and conflicted individual, but on the path to making things right.

As it stands, he make doesn't make a lick of sense and now is just an extra body taking up space, to deliver badly written one liners and woohoo's that are a strain on my rolling eyeballs.

Cookie_Monster

other than terrible writing is there any reason that:

1) the other star destroyers didn't fire on or do anything while the dreadnought was being smashed?
2) a couple of star destroyers didn't jump to light speed for a second or two to get ahead of the rebel fleet and open fire on it then?
3) the medical frigate didn't simply light speed through the bad guys before running out of fuel?

They're just the first three that come to mind when I think about it, there are plenty more.

The massive gaping plot holes are the most disappointing part of this film, I mentioned all of the above and more to my wife as we sat watching it. The writers / producers really must have a super low opinion of viewers to even try and get away with such poor writing

I absolutely can't stand the gender bull**** being shoehorned into the criticism of this film

salmocab

I brought my nephews the day after it came out, firstly they loved it and in fairness thats to be expected from a 7 & 9 YO. I enjoyed it, it was far from perfect some of the comedic scenes were just poor especially the caretakers on the jedi island. The story tipped along and yes there were some plot holes and odd leaps but Star Wars to me anyway is like that. Its not going to worry too many people in award season but it was an enjoyable movie.