Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

Let’s not forget the animated clone wars movie is counted as a release. Most people haven’t seen it though. Not in anything like the numbers of the rest.

IncognitoMan

Great
1) Empire Strikes Back
2) A New Hope

Good
3) The Force Awakens
4) Revenge of the Sith
5) Rogue One
6) Return of the Jedi

OK
7) The Last Jedi

Poor
8) The Phantom Menace
9) Attack of the Clones
10) Christmas special

Andrew Beef

Those “How X should have ended” animated shorts on YouTube are quite good.

For the ROTJ one, Anakin appears as a Force ghost with Yoda and Obi Wan as normal. Then some youngling Jedi appear as Force ghosts and say “ah, Master Skywalker, you butchered us as children” and then Yoda says “awkward this is”.

Very funny and worth a look.

david75

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv1KzoH4_0U

goose2005

Wibbs wrote: »

Well if light speed were possible, even a fighter would do a huge amount of damage. The kinetic energy released on impact going at three hundred thousand kilometres per second would be truly enormous. I'd imagine there would be some spacetime distortions too.

I don't think they're supposed to actually be travelling at lightspeed, it's more like passing through a tunnel in space:

Hyperdrives manipulated hypermatter particles in order to thrust a starship into hyperspace[1] by taking advantage of the wrinkles in the fabric of realspace, whilst still preserving the ship's mass/energy profile.[1] This shortened journeying distance significantly, allowing the vessel to "jump" from a specific point to another without having to travel directly between them, therefore reducing journey time by an extraordinarily large margin.[2] However, large objects in realspace cast "mass shadows" in hyperspace, so hyperspace jumps necessitated very precise calculations.[3] Without those, a vessel could fly right through a star or another celestial body.[2] Because of the danger, there existed predetermined hyperspace routes which interstellar travelers could take. ... The Galactic Empire employed Interdictor vessels to disable hyperspace capabilities in other vessels, both to pull them from hyperspace and to prevent them from making the jump to it.[7]

so the ramming scene doesn't make sense and kind of breaks the whole space combat.

SnakePlissken

The Last Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
A New Hope
Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
Rogue One
Phantom Menace...


Ewoks, battle for endor...









Attack of the clones.

david75

goose2005 wrote: »

I don't think they're supposed to actually be travelling at lightspeed, it's more like passing through a tunnel in space:


so the ramming scene doesn't make sense and kind of breaks the whole space combat.

I took it to be that the ship simply cuts the supremacy on its way into the hyperspace tube so it’s in real space still and causes impact.
Makes sense to me.

irishman86

david75 wrote: »

Really? That’s odd. Most people think she was pretty good. Shame to have her go out like that. Would have been cool to have her now Carries gone.

Hux pulls some evil sh!t in this that goes unnoticed mostly too. He destroys the resistance medical frigate and then goes for his blaster to kill kylo when he’s down in the throne room but you almost miss it it’s very subtle.

Who missed it exactly :pac: did a blind man watch the movie

Relikk

Might as well hop on the rank train...

The Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Rogue One
Return Of The Jedi
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi
Revenge of the Sith
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

david75

irishman86 wrote: »

Who missed it exactly :pac: did a blind man watch the movie

No but I was referring to the fact that people are only seeing him being almost a panto villain and over acting/hamming it up. When in fact he has a good few moments when he’s truly evil. I haven’t seen anyone mention those moments but they are easy to forget given everything else we get for him he’s just being used for a laugh

Acosta

Empire
Star Wars
Return Of The Jedi
Rogue One

The Force Awakens

Revenge Of The Sith
The Last Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack Of The Clones

....Yep. TLJ is prequel bad

Saruhashi

Star Wars
Empire Strikes Back
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
The Last Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

I think most peoples lists will stop including the "a star wars story" movies once we get a couple of duff ones. I don't expect "Solo" to be any good and I anticipate most of the others I've seen proposed would be rubbish too.

Funny that TLJ is supposedly about letting go of the past but the fanbase is desperate for an Obi Wan movie or a Darth Vader movie or a re-imagining of the prequels etc etc. Yoda movie, anyone?

Are they in danger of diluting the magic of Star Wars by having too many movies? Even looking at my list there I would say I have 2 excellent movies, 2 good movies, 1 OK and 4 that are kind of terrible in various ways.

Saruhashi

I read an article that contains this line:

"The final shot of The Last Jedi further impresses upon the viewer that the Force is open to anyone."

I've read loads of articles that have some kind of variation on this.

I have to say I don't really get it. Assuming that the prequels are still considered part of the Star Wars story then wasn't the force always pretty much open to anyone?

I think we saw hundreds of force users in the prequels, right? Loads of different species were using it and we never knew the background of any of those characters.

The main ones that we see Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul, Palpatine, Yoda, Count Dooku, Mace Windu were never really portrayed as some kind of Force aristocracy. These guys could have all been stable boys once for all we know. Or was it explained?

I get that in the Originals you had Luke, Leia and Vader who were all related but we still see Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine all using the force and there's no exploration of their origins.

Where is the idea coming from that in the previous 7 Star Wars movies only a select few can use the force but now The Last Jedi has turned that on it's head and anyone can use the force?

I always got the impression that Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine were actually more powerful than Vader or Luke anyway so the idea of the Skywalkers as Force Nobility doesn't make too much sense either.

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

I read an article that contains this line:

"The final shot of The Last Jedi further impresses upon the viewer that the Force is open to anyone."

I've read loads of articles that have some kind of variation on this.

I have to say I don't really get it. Assuming that the prequels are still considered part of the Star Wars story then wasn't the force always pretty much open to anyone?

I think we saw hundreds of force users in the prequels, right? Loads of different species were using it and we never knew the background of any of those characters.

The main ones that we see Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Darth Maul, Palpatine, Yoda, Count Dooku, Mace Windu were never really portrayed as some kind of Force aristocracy. These guys could have all been stable boys once for all we know. Or was it explained?

I get that in the Originals you had Luke, Leia and Vader who were all related but we still see Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine all using the force and there's no exploration of their origins.

Where is the idea coming from that in the previous 7 Star Wars movies only a select few can use the force but now The Last Jedi has turned that on it's head and anyone can use the force?

I always got the impression that Obi-Wan, Yoda and Palpatine were actually more powerful than Vader or Luke anyway so the idea of the Skywalkers as Force Nobility doesn't make too much sense either.

It’s always been the case that everyone has the force. It’s just some people are far more in tune and can use the force and end up Jedi /sith.

It surrounds us. Binds us. Etc etc.

Nobody said the Skywalkers are force nobility. The story just happens to be about them.

Goodshape

I think the difference is that it used to require training, commitment, and focus. Now it's more of a super power you can tap into relatively easily, or suddenly 'unlock'.

david75

Goodshape wrote: »

I think the difference is that it used to require training, commitment, and focus. Now it's more of a super power you can tap into relatively easily, or suddenly 'unlock'.

Nah that’s not what’s happening at all. All this Cos we saw one kid using the force to grab a broom and cos rey isn’t related to Kenobi or Skywalker.
These articles are beyond hot takes and imposing a flawed flavour of the month pc narrative and opinion where it doesn’t belong.
No way at all Disney are suddenly lettin everyone be force users.

Goodshape

david75 wrote: »

All this Cos we saw one kid using the force to grab a broom and cos rey isn’t related to Kenobi or Skywalker.

Nothing to do with Rey's [lack of] family, just that the idea of dedication and years of training don't seem to be the requirement that they once were, i.e. for Anakin, Luke, and others we've heard of.

Rey just has the power. As does that kid at the end, presumably.

Sad Professor

According to Luke and Snoke, Ben and Rey exhibited a "raw" Force power that didn't require much training. The training was presumedly more in learning to control it and being on the right side of it. Anakin, who was flying pod racers when he was 8, was clearly the same. Training or no training, Anakin would have been a force to be reckoned with by the time he was Rey's age.

Luke was obviously different, but he was a different character with a different story arc in the OT. In the first two films he was an everyman-type character who wanted to be a hero but didn't truly become one until ROTJ when he sheds the whiny childishness and becomes a man. Prior to that, Han Solo (a reluctant hero) embodied the other half of the heroic male archetype that young Luke wasn't yet ready to take on himself. Note how once Luke finally does, Han is reduced to playing second fiddle to him, and Han goes from saving Luke to being saved by Luke.

Rey is more fully formed when we meet her than Luke was in the OT and she's not exactly an everyman-type character. She's already experienced a lot, much of which we aren't privy to. She's more capable and independent than Luke was at that age, and she has a "mysterious" backstory which she doesn't share with anyone, not even the audience. Where as Luke wants to be a hero like his father, Rey is more of a reluctant hero. She's a bit more like Han in ANH in this sense, and like Han she doesn't accept the mantle of hero until the end of TFA, and even then her role in this story remains uncertain, as Kylo reminds her in TLJ.

The more Lukish half of the heroic archetype in this trilogy is really embodied by Kylo himself, who like Luke, feels he has a legacy to fulfil but goes about it very differently, making the opposite decisions to Luke in most cases.

Andrew Beef

Saruhashi wrote: »

Star Wars
Empire Strikes Back
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
The Last Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones

I think most peoples lists will stop including the "a star wars story" movies once we get a couple of duff ones. I don't expect "Solo" to be any good and I anticipate most of the others I've seen proposed would be rubbish too.

Funny that TLJ is supposedly about letting go of the past but the fanbase is desperate for an Obi Wan movie or a Darth Vader movie or a re-imagining of the prequels etc etc. Yoda movie, anyone?

Are they in danger of diluting the magic of Star Wars by having too many movies? Even looking at my list there I would say I have 2 excellent movies, 2 good movies, 1 OK and 4 that are kind of terrible in various ways.

But Rogue One is sensational, even according to your own list...how can we possibly question “A Star Wars Story” movies when the one to date has been so good?

froog

my ranking would be;

Star Wars - self contained adventure in its own right. fond memories of this.
Empire - gave real emotion to the series.
Return of the Jedi - weakest OT film, but still amazing.
Rogue One - maybe the best produced/directed film in the entire list, but loses out to the story and excitement of the OT.
Revenge of the Sith - underrated film. i think they finally got their **** together with this in in the prequels.
The Force Awakens - it ranks low cause it just felt like a boring reboot of the first film. we've already seen star wars ANH, why do we need to see it again?
Attack of the Clones - reasonably enjoyable.
Phantom Menace - terrible film in every sense.
The Last Jedi - just a bad movie, terrible writing decisions, bad pacing, boring characters, unforgivable plot holes and character decisions

Arne_Saknussem

Hello Internet review, for those of you with **** all to do with your time!

Andrew Beef

froog wrote: »

my ranking would be;

Star Wars - self contained adventure in its own right. fond memories of this.
Empire - gave real emotion to the series.
Return of the Jedi - weakest OT film, but still amazing.
Rogue One - maybe the best produced/directed film in the entire list, but loses out to the story and excitement of the OT.
Revenge of the Sith - underrated film. i think they finally got their **** together with this in in the prequels.
The Force Awakens - it ranks low cause it just felt like a boring reboot of the first film. we've already seen star wars ANH, why do we need to see it again?
Attack of the Clones - reasonably enjoyable.
Phantom Menace - terrible film in every sense.
The Last Jedi - just a bad movie, terrible writing decisions, bad pacing, boring characters, unforgivable plot holes and character decisions

It is sensationalism in the extreme to put Last Jedi below Phantom Menace; like it or loathe it, one cannot in all seriousness place the latest movie at the bottom of the list.

johnny_ultimate

1. The Last Jedi - you’d never guess from this thread, but I quite like this film The only major blockbuster to get under my skin in some time - bold, confident, and often even beautiful filmmaking in a budget-range that rarely allows for that. The more I’ve read and thought about it, the more I admire it.

2. The Empire Strikes Back - a rewatch a few years ago actually shocked me in how much of a leap in quality this is over its immediate predecessor. Grade A space opera.

3. A New Hope / TFA - I cannot understate the first film’s importance in terms of the iconic scenes, characters, images, set pieces. But more recent rewatches make the whole experience feel a little... stodgy at times, and somewhat lacking in the magic I felt as a kid. TFA robs the playbook to an often outrageous degree, but is full of life and enthusiasm at the same time. Both films that amaze and annoy me in their own unique ways.

4. Return of the Jedi - steep drop in quality here. A tedious, messy and already derivative film that aims low and only gets a passing grade due to a handful of memorable sequences.

5. Rogue One - I need to revisit this, but based on one viewing alone its good ideas and refreshing take on the universe are undermined by bland direction and the sense that it is never the film it could be. But it deserves another chance at some stage.

And the rest. I feel insufficient enthusiasm to even rank them, but Attack of the Clones is the ugliest child.

Special mention to Ewoks: Battle for Endor, which is certainly something that exists.

Wibbs

Sad Professor wrote: »

According to Luke and Snoke, Ben and Rey exhibited a "raw" Force power that didn't require much training. The training was presumedly more in learning to control it and being on the right side of it. Anakin, who was flying pod racers when he was 8, was clearly the same. Training or no training, Anakin would have been a force to be reckoned with by the time he was Rey's age.

Not likely. At least in the Lucas helmed stuff. It's made pretty clear it's a talent that requires recognition and training to come out. With Anakin they debate whether it's dangerous to train him to use this talent, which means if they don't then he'll still be good at pod racing but not much else will happen. The danger is training him and him being seduced by evil. Note too in the OT Leia has the same power as Luke, but the only example she shows of it is telepathy with Luke. That's it. He even tells her right at the end she has this talent and he can teach her to use it.

It is not an automatic superpower that one acquires and can wield within hours of finding out about it that we see in the Disney outings. The same Leia can now go full superman in the vacuum of space. Now no doubt the "reason" is something along the lines of Luke taught her in the interim, but that has to be made up and accepted by the audience and it's really bad storytelling. There are similar problems with Disney Princess Rey. She's just awesome out of the box and is vested with more awesome as she goes along. Her only struggle is with how she deals with all her awesome. I half expected her to start singing Frozen songs. Again its really bloody awful storytelling.

And that's the main reason they can't and won't repeat the lightning in a bottle of the first run. Storytelling, based on incredibly deep veins of mythos and tales going back millennia. On top of nicking from Flash Gordon, westerns, Dune and Samurai flics, George got deeply involved with studying the history of myth and legends and quests and heroes and good V evil and all that. He specifically sought out writers and lecturers in this area. He was obsessed by it. And that's why even with clunky dialogue, sets and FX the story rings a bell across ages and cultures and decades. An Ancient Athenian would get it, as would a San Bushman.

Disney, who once were incredibly good at mining the same deep vein(it's what made them) can't seem to do it with this story. Hell, even when Abrams basically copies scene for scene, plot point by plot point of A New Hope, to the degree where it's damn near a remake, they still can't seem to do it. Oh sure, it'll keep audiences buttons pushed as they know how to do that, but it's all surface, nostalgia, expectation, but with no heart at its core.

Wibbs

Hmmm

froog wrote: »

The Last Jedi - just a bad movie, terrible writing decisions, bad pacing, boring characters, unforgivable plot holes and character decisions

Versus...

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

1. The Last Jedi - you’d never guess from this thread, but I quite like this film The only major blockbuster to get under my skin in some time - bold, confident, and often even beautiful filmmaking in a budget-range that rarely allows for that. The more I’ve read and thought about it, the more I admire it.

I reckon the difference in opinion here comes down to a couple of things. With any film there are very broadly two aspects to it; the craft of filmmaking itself and the story. Good films can be more one than the other, great films have more of a balance.

So again broadly, to those folks who are more into the craft of filmmaking, TLJ is going to be seen as better(and they'd be pretty close to right). Those folks who are more into story TLJ is going to be seen as worse(and they'd be pretty close to right). General audiences can be "fooled", at least temporarily. Hollywood has honed that to a fine art with blockbusters.

TLJ is a very well made film. I'd not disagree there. However the core story and storytelling is average at best and surprisingly cackhanded at worst.

The hyperspace suicide run would sum up The Last Jedi for me. A truly fantastic and memorable bit of cinema. One could call it brave too, considering the idea of suicide bombing using a space/aircraft on the western, especially American psyche. However the story leading up to it and the problems it introduces to the story in the future, not so good at all. One could say similar of the SuperLeia scene, most of Luke's scenes, the bombing run scene, even the casino scene(if it were in a different film).

J Mysterio

david75 wrote: »

There was a sequence shot in Malin Head of them attacking Luke and Rey.
Including a sequence where they all kneel before a ship as kylo arrives.

It was shot and full reports of it were posted all over. Most detailed on making Star Wars


If you doubt that, Adam Driver was here for filming for a week. And he’s not in any shots in ‘ireland’ as it was used.

I can get you the description of what was shot Up in Donegal and cut if you like.
Loads of wire work. Luke takes out all the KOR with just the force and kylo fighting Rey alone and he leggs it when faced with Luke alone.

That sounds more cool. Proper Jedi battle. Luke was so misused in this.

david75

J Mysterio wrote: »

That sounds more cool. Proper Jedi battle. Luke was so misused in this.

I suspect the direction they went with Luke is probably at the heart of a lot of people’s problem with the film. I’m still furious about him just throwing the saber away. But once you look at it it was the right way to go with him. It would be boring and get no end of criticism had he just been Jedi superman wrecking the first order. It’s far more interesting to have him refuse the call out of shame of his own failures. Then have R2 gave him a kick up the hole. Then have him see Leia has been inhljured and finally have Yoda come to really snap him out of it and tell him failure is the most valuable lesson.
There wasn’t anything he could do to stop Ben going down that path and he’s needs to stop blaming himself for triggering it. So in his final act of sacrifice and the way he goes about it he’s more powerful in that act (and more interesting) than anything they could have shown him physically do like say throwing them walkers around and destroying them, even the fight with kylo is pure Jedi. Never for attack. Only for defence. And as a sweetener he totally gets into his head and fvcks with him. That’s gonna make kylo an even more interesting character in 9 and Driver has the chops to bring it most would agree.

Earthhorse

Wibbs wrote: »

And that's the main reason they can't and won't repeat the lightning in a bottle of the first run. Storytelling, based on incredibly deep veins of mythos and tales going back millennia. On top of nicking from Flash Gordon, westerns, Dune and Samurai flics, George got deeply involved with studying the history of myth and legends and quests and heroes and good V evil and all that. He specifically sought out writers and lecturers in this area. He was obsessed by it. And that's why even with clunky dialogue, sets and FX the story rings a bell across ages and cultures and decades. An Ancient Athenian would get it, as would a San Bushman.

And it's not just that. It's the John Williams soundtrack (which I know is reused), the charisma and chemistry of Ford and Fisher, the amazing costumes and sets, the voice of James Earl Jones; the whole thing just coalesced perfectly. You're never going to capture that magic again. I even agree with Kylo Ren when he says we've gotta burn that past away but holy hell they could have done a decent job of retiring the old characters with some nobility and respect, some degree of consistency in their behaviour, as it stands the who,e thing is a giant mess of "backfill your own narrative to explain how it came to this".

Andrew Beef

Some of Luke’s observations were fascinating; his loss of faith was entirely believable. The Jedi made a pig’s ear of pretty much everything based on arrogance and hubris.

Earthhorse

david75 wrote: »

I suspect the direction they went with Luke is probably at the heart of a lot of people’s problem with the film. I’m still furious about him just throwing the saber away. But once you look at it it was the right way to go with him. It would be boring and get no end of criticism had he just been Jedi superman wrecking the first order. It’s far more interesting to have him refuse the call out of shame of his own failures. Then have R2 gave him a kick up the hole. Then have him see Leia has been inhljured and finally have Yoda come to really snap him out of it and tell him failure is the most valuable lesson.
There wasn’t anything he could do to stop Ben going down that path and he’s needs to stop blaming himself for triggering it. So in his final act of sacrifice and the way he goes about it he’s more powerful in that act (and more interesting) than anything they could have shown him physically do like say throwing them walkers around and destroying them, even the fight with kylo is pure Jedi. Never for attack. Only for defence. And as a sweetener he totally gets into his head and fvcks with him. That’s gonna make kylo an even more interesting character in 9 and Driver has the chops to bring it most would agree.

They could have done this in a more subtle way though. He doesn't have to throw the saber away, he can just hand it back. He can tell her he's no teacher. And when she asks is he not the Jedi Master Like Skywalker he simply restates that he's no teacher. So that way we know something has happened that makes him reluctant to teach but not what. But with the cheap gag all we do is laugh. When everything's treated so frivolously by the director what reason have we to take it seriously?

If I could pick one word to describe TLJ it would be silly. The whole thing is just entirely silly. They could have told the same story or broadly the same one without making it all seem so throwaway. They could have leant the world a little weight whilst reviving the sardonic humour that we miss so much from the original trilogy.

I can't remember who said it but movie is an exercise in tone. The tone is all wrong in TLJ and that's why it sucks.