Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Wibbs

Andrew Beef wrote: »

The Jedi made a pig’s ear of pretty much everything based on arrogance and hubris.

Nope, they didn't. The "history" within that universe had the Jedi guys and gals keeping peace in a republic for thousands of years, fighting the odd interlude of the dark side coming up. In the original trilogy the Empire is only around for a couple of decades. It was basically as old as Luke Skywalker and Leia at the time of the last of the original three. As I said earlier throwing all that away would be akin to getting rid of democracy because a Hitler, or Stalin comes along once in a while. It makes no sense internally or generally.

Luke would certainly "know" that. Never mind that this is a guy who struggled hard to find and fight for redemption for his da, a guy who was party to the murder of millions and the Jedi order itself. Yet he goes all emo because his beloved nephew may be going down the dark path? A path he just goes down BTW, like it just is, that it's his destiny. That's a difference right there*. It's an example of the simplistic approach in these Disney interpretations. Anakin could have gone either way. Hell Luke could have gone either way and only beats his da by going a bit dark side for a moment, until he backed away from that precipice. It's backwards this time around. Rey is Awesome because. Ren is Evil because. The only will they/won't they presented is the hamfisted maybe they can turn one another from their destiny. There's no tension beyond Ren's gurning and temper tantrums and Rey's wide eyed expressions at how awesome she is.

Earthhorse wrote: »

TBut with the cheap gag all we do is laugh. When everything's treated so frivolously by the director what reason have we to take it seriously?

Exactly. The writers/director doesn't seem to understand the basic difference between humour and gags. It's nearly always the latter. The holding for General Hux scene, the do you think you got him, bookended by Ren force punching people against walls. Like you say, no consistency and zero subtlety of tone at all(and when Ren is both supposed to be a figure of fear and slagging, it's beyond silly). Even the Luke brushing his collar after the artillery barrage and "do you think you got him" was a cheap laugh. Then we're immediately into the serious business Jedi fight. Now all this looks fantastic, but it's beyond dire a script underneath. Same segment, Finn's attempted sacrifice being stopped by Rose. WTF? All levels of wrong with that scene.


*Oh and he has the ability as a bare teenager to blow Luke Skywalker away and kill all the other students, because he just is.

david75

My pal is writing a really excellent breakdown on TLJ chapter by chapter. Here’s a piece. Really wonderful insightful read.

Ach To: Rey is training with her staff, and sees her lightsaber in her pack. She lights it up (the first lightsaber moment is 58 minutes in, which is kind of astounding). Her theme plays, and she gets caught up in the elegance of the weapon and the moment. Luke comes to observe, and what is initially set up as a mentor/pass the torch moment turns slightly sour when Rey cleaves off part of the rock, almost crushing the caretakers below her. Luke fears her power, and the reckless potential within it.

Luke lectures Rey in the meditation chamber, arguing that underneath the Jedi legend is a legacy of failure. It is no surprise that Luke is fixated on this legacy. He is the direct heir to it, and he focuses on the rise of Emperor and the corruption of Anakin underneath their nose. And he’s not wrong, except that he is. The Jedi failed in the end. All things fail in the end (in fact the balance at the heart of the force discussed earlier speaks to this – a cycle of growth – death – decay - growth ). But prior to that the Jedi endured for a thousand generations (tens of thousands of years). This temple has endured that whole time. The legend of the Jedi grew from this strength, this endurance, this legacy. That in the end it faded does not negate what they accomplished.

Luke can’t get past this – the idea that failure is an end – that once you fail you can never recover. That in the process of failure you undo all the previous good of a life well lived. Failure and success are not held in balance with each other. There’s no cycle here. They stand as stark opposites, diametrically opposed and incompatible. It’s not necessarily surprising Luke drew this conclusion. Failure is a harsh lesson, and it is easier to learn from it when there is someone there to guide you, to believe in you, to help you understand that failure is a chance to grow and begin again. And when Luke finally did fail he didn’t have that mentor to help him learn that lesson. And that’s in large measure why he is where he is today.

Rey gets this in a way that Luke doesn’t, perhaps because, unlike Luke, she lived a life full of failure and disappointment. Yes it was a Jedi who created Darth Vader, but as Rey points out, it was a Jedi who saved him. And this conversation , whether Rey knows it yet or not, has her thinking about Kylo Ren another Skywalker in need of saving.

We’ll see where the series goes in Episode IX, but that’s a parallel I hadn’t really thought about before. That the Skywalkers, the alleged redeemers, are all themselves at one point or another in need of redemption. Luke saves Anakin. Rey and Yoda save Luke. Will someone save Kylo?

It is here that Luke opens up about what happened with Kylo. He sensed the power within his ‘mighty Skywalker blood’. He claims that training him was an act of hubris, that it disrupted the balance that existed previously. But again, what Luke is describing as balance here isn’t balance the way it was described earlier. Balance is a cycle of renewal, growth, death, and decay. It is a dynamic process, not a static moment. It is peace, but not peace as an absence of conflict. It is peace that is derived from a system in harmony with itself.

Balance may not be about the relationship between Jedi and Sith, light side and dark side as ways to harness the force. That makes the force about the Jedi, which, as Luke discussed earlier is itself hubris.

Luke tells the story of the training temple (Kylo and a dozen students, at least initially), and it is important to note that the moment where he struggles the most is with the trust Leia put into him – the trust that she would watch over her son. Luke clearly feels that he violated that trust in a deep and personal way, and it isn’t surprising that he might run from Leia after so intimate a betrayal.

Luke continues, speaking of his confrontation with Kylo, who, in Luke’s mind, turned on him, left with some of the students, and killed the others. Leia blamed Snoke, but as Luke admits “It was me. I failed. Because I was Luke Skywalker. Jedi Master. A legend.” It is clear in this line how Luke blames being a legend in his own time for giving him the exaggerated and unearned confidence that he could be a teacher, and it is clear why he runs away from that title now. He isn’t worthy of it, and it can only lead to disaster because of it. That in the end Leia was probably right is irrelevant. Luke believes it.

Rey grasps something important here, as she responds “The galaxy may need a legend.” She is starting to understand the value in the myth of Luke Skywalker and the Jedi Order even if the man himself is letting her down. A legend doesn’t have to be accurate to have meaning. An idea doesn’t have to be true to have power. It just needs to be believed.

She follows this realization with two more personal observations. “I need someone to show me my place in all this” a longing for answers and a place to belong that will drive her towards the cave, and towards a fixation on Kylo’s redemption. And, perhaps because she understands failure, she points out that Luke didn’t fail Kylo. Kylo failed him. Which, as we’ll learn, is a half truth. They failed each other, but that they failed doesn’t make them failures.

She ends with the promise not to fail him. It isn’t yet clear what that means. Fail him as a student? As a Jedi? As someone who can redeem Kylo and through that redeem Luke? Maybe all of it.

Ahch To (the climax part 1) Luke journeys at night to the meditation rock, and opens himself up to the Force for the first time in years – reaching out to Leia, and it is this contact that awakens Leia from her coma.

Kylo and Rey have their third connection (that we see. One is left with the impression that there have been others) and there is an increasingly easy familiarity between them. Kindred spirits, if not friends – strong in the force, the same teacher, the same feeling of loss and loneliness. The growing realization that each is uniquely situated to understand the other in a way that few others could.

I quite like the opening exchange:

“I’d rather not do this now”
“Yeah, me too”
(plus the ask for him to put on a cowl – which speaks to a growing tension which, if not quite sexual, at least speaks to intimacy).

Rey asks him why he hated his father – which has been the burning question so far. He had a family that loved him and he threw it away. It is all she ever wanted. How could he do that?

The conversation shifts over to parents, framed in terms of inheritance, not legacy. Rey asks for an honest answer and doesn’t doubt his response that he didn’t. Kylo turns this back on Rey – she had parents who abandoned her that she still longs for. That longing is reframed as weakness – holding onto the past in a way that prevents you from moving forward. Kylo didn’t want to kill Han. He had to, in order to become whoever it is he is meant to be. It’s a devastating and destructive answer, but given the constant series of parental betrayals that constitutes his life as he sees it(being shipped off with Luke, Luke failing him, the abusive relationship with Snoke, his complicated relationship with Vader) it isn’t a surprise that he has adopted this frame of reference. If anything it is even more applicable to Rey, who has literally wasted her life until very recently desperately needing the people who abandoned her – afraid to forge a life and place for herself that is independent of her past. Even once she was off Jaku she has been reproducing this same dynamic with the same people who let Kyo down (Han and Luke)

“Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. It’s the only way you can become who you were meant to be” It’s a powerful line, especially when connected back to Rey’s plaintive need for “someone to show me my place in all this.” It’s also a generational marker – written for younger audiences grappling with a world they didn’t make, full of problems they didn’t cause, full of struggles they didn’t ask for and promises that can’t be kept, that they will have to find a way to answer for. If you are a young person coming into your own in a world where the environment is collapsing, living is more expensive than ever while opportunity is scarcer, the intractable bigotries of past generations dominate politics, and it is up to you to fix it these are ideas that will resonate. Younger audiences need to figure out how to confront the past they inherited. Older audiences with the failure of their legacy. Harsher themes then we may be used to, but potent.

Kylo drops the bombshell that Luke tried to kill Kylo because he sensed and feared his power, as he does with Rey (he’s said as much) which will force a dramatic reframing of their relationship, and drives her closer to Kylo. The way this scene is shot, from Kylo’s memory, Luke looks terrifying - wide eyes, grim determination, lightsaber ready to strike. And Kylo was just a teenager. It’s not just that this explains what drove Kylo away. This eventually gives Rey the justification she needs to aggressively try and redeem him. He is out of balance, and it isn’t his fault. He was unmade, but with her help he can be remade.

Seeking answers, Rey takes her journey to the dark side cave. It’s a visually stunning sequence, but when she asks about her parents and receives her promised answer, she’s shown no one but herself. The message she will ultimately take away is that it doesn’t matter who her parents are – that her future is hers to craft as she sees fit. But after having searched for that answer for so long she feels let down, exposed, vulnerable, lost, hurt, and alone. It is Kylo who tells her that she is not alone, and she opens herself up to Kylo. They are two lost souls searching for meaning, and for the first time Rey feels, in a powerful way, that Kylo is someone who can be redeemed. She extends her hand and he reaches out to take it (a mirror of the scene we’ll see later). They touch, the force theme plays, and it is a powerful connection – the seeds of redemption that will pay off in the throne room sequence.

(as a side note, the way this scene is shot the silhouette approaching the cave wall looks a bit like Kylo Ren, and I half expected it to be him as the other side of the same coin). I don’t know if that was intentional misdirection or not)

Luke breaks the connection in a panic, assuming that Kylo is corrupting Rey, rather than Rey saving Kylo. In anger, both wanting Kylo to have lied and tell the truth, she confronts Luke about what really happened the night Kylo destroyed the temple. Luke tells her to leave the island, banishing her, ending their training, rather than confront what happened – his greatest failure. She forces him to the ground to get an answer, and they have a brief duel with staves. It’s important to note that Luke uses his powers twice during this sequence (once to summon a staff and once to stop himself from falling – his force abilities have been dormant, but they’re still there, and they return to him on instinct. He came to this island to die, but his will for self-preservation is still strong. What happened with Kylo is at the heart of Luke’s internal conflict, and Luke will ultimately emerge from this extended experience reborn).

Luke defeats her, until she summons his/her lightsaber and forces a confession. Luke vocalizes out loud, probably for the first time, his deepest failure. That for a brief moment, confronted with the darkness in Kylo, he briefly gave into the dark side impulse to kill him in his sleep. Easy enough to justify for the greater good, and a complete violation of everything he stands for. Luke had been here before – tempted to kill Vader but ultimately refusing the dark side impulse. He does so again here (the moment passes – a terrible test but one Luke passes. The shame he felt was appropriate, but something he should have learned from). Tragically Kylo opens his eyes at the worst possible time, and in a moment of self defense fully embraces the darkness within him – not out of a lust for power or dominance, but as a buffer against an intimate betrayal.

“And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened by whose master had failed him”

Rey seizes this opening – it wasn’t Kylo’s fault. The conflict within him stems from this moment (not what Luke said, but what she wants to believe). If confronted with an alternative he could be turned. When they touched hands she believes she saw a future where he can make a different choice. She connects this back to the larger story. Saving Kylo is not just a good in itself. By saving Kylo they can stop the First Order, change the balance of the war. “This could be how we win.” Given the fact that Snoke was manipulating this entire relationship I wonder how much of this is Snoke. Does Rey want to turn Kylo because he’s a powerful weapon (echoes of the Emperor, and Snoke’s thinking), or because she wants to save a soul?

There are echoes of Empire here – the promising student rushing off to confront her rival before she is ready against the wishes of her master

Rey offers him back his lightsaber, but Luke turns his eyes away. She offers the intriguing departing line “he’s our last hope” with all the echoes of the OT. The galaxy needs a Skywalker. It needs a Jedi. She has no faith that Luke will rise to meet the burden. The last hope is still a Skywalker, but this time it’s not the hero. It’s the villain, and the hope that the villain can be saved (which we are nicely primed for as an audience We’ve seen this in the OT. We know how it goes down).

Rey leaves and Luke is confronted with another failure – another student lost or killed to the dark side. But, this is a new, raw, open wound. One he’s not hiding from, having just spoken of his true failure, his true shame. And because it is exposed, it can be cured.

Ach To (the climax part 2)

Luke watches her leave ,his face steels with resolve the force theme plays, and luke approaches the tree – lighting a torch, not a lightsaber. He is going to burn down the tree. Frustrated, lost, alone, confronted with his failure, he has no idea what else to do.

But he senses behind him his old teacher, and he turns to greet Master Yoda. He doesn’t look happy to see him. Almost annoyed – one more person to pile on him when he’s at his lowest – to hear about how he’s failed.

Yoda greets old man Luke as “young Skywalker”, which itself is telling. A reminder that Yoda has lived longer, seem more, survived worse – that perhaps his problems may not be as big as they seem.

He confesses that he is going to burn down the tree and texts. But he gets there and his resolve fades. Perhaps it is the rashness of the action (as we saw earlier, there is a part of Luke that still wants to believe). Maybe he can’t imagine committing such an act of sacrilege in front of Yoda. But he hesitates.

Yoda doesn’t. He focuses for a brief moment and calls down a bolt of lightning that sets the tree ablaze (and establishing new possibilities for force ghosts – perhaps this will come up in IX). Luke is horrified that Yoda just followed through on the threat Luke just made (“Do or do not. There is no try”) Yoda laughs at Luke’s confusion in his playful, knowing way – understanding that Luke needs this sort of shock to the system . That no less than Kylo Ren he has to let the past die. He visualizes this through the destruction of the tree (which Yoda recognizes no longer has value as a symbol) but he is really talking about the way Luke is hanging on to his own past – his own failures.

Luke asks aloud if it is time for the Jedi to end. Yoda, more than anyone would be justified in answering. Yoda’s speech patterns work well here, as we get the answer “Time it is” and a pause before he continues “for you to look past a pile of old books.” As Yoda understands (and as Luke understands rationally but cannot feel emotionally) being a jedi is about your relationship with yourself, and balancing yourself within the universe. Finding your place. The texts aren’t necessary and are part of the past that Luke is holding on to. (plus Rey stole them so what wisdom they had she can still access. Luke, interestingly enough, never learns this, so Yoda’s comment that the library contains nothing Rey does not already possess has a sly double meaning).

Luke is here, at his most vulnerable. The tree is burned. He directly confronted his failure with Kylo Ren. He just failed Rey. But here, at this moment of absolute failure, he is finally again in the presence of a teacher – someone who can reframe that failure as something to learn from (which Yoda understands better than most). He reminds Luke that the past and future is less important than what he needs to do right now, and that his failures don’t change that need, that responsibility. That Rey can and will learn from his mistakes. That it is not too late for him to learn from his own mistakes. To do what is needed. “Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we must not” . The we is important here. It reconnects Luke to a larger history. It reminds him that he is not alone. It makes the struggle Yoda’s as much as it is Luke’s. And it is not too late.

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure, also. Yes, failure, most of all. The greatest teacher failure is.”
Luke, what we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

I think this is Yoda’s most powerful observation in all of Star Wars, and an epiphany for Luke, as he sits beside Yoda, watching the tree burn, and begins to heal.

It’s an amazing moment, an amazing scene, and the entire extended sequence from the first “I’d rather not do this right now” until the very end is as moving and insightful as Star Wars gets.

J Mysterio

Wibbs wrote: »

*Oh and he has the ability as a bare teenager to blow Luke Skywalker away and kill all the other students, because he just is.

... And Luke couldnt sense the full extent of the dark side in him before the incident. He had to sneak into his tent to be sure. It's a poor solution to patch the story and it undermines Luke.

Ultimately it seems that there is no cohesion between the new trilogy, probably because its being made up by various directors as they go along. They should have written all three before making any of them.

david75

J Mysterio wrote: »

... And Luke couldnt sense the full extent of the dark side in him before the incident. He had to sneak into his tent to be sure. It's a poor solution to patch the story and it undermines Luke.

Ultimately it seems that there is no cohesion between the new trilogy, probably because its being made up by various directors as they go along. They should have written all three before making any of them.

We already have kylo established as evil (or wannabe evil/conflicted) in TFA. That moment in the hut is just showing us what tipped him over fully. It’s not throwaway but I’d rather have seen it than always wondered. It explains his motivations and Luke’s shame and sense of responsibility for it.

nix

david75 wrote: »

We already have kylo established as evil (or wannabe evil/conflicted) in TFA. That moment in the hut is just showing us what tipped him over fully. It’s not throwaway but I’d rather have seen it than always wondered. It explains his motivations and Luke’s shame and sense of responsibility for it.

What about Lukes motivation to cut his nephew down in his sleep? Why did that happen? Knowing Luke, how did that even become an idea to have him do that? :rolleyes:

david75

nix wrote: »

What about Lukes motivation to cut his nephew down in his sleep? Why did that happen? Knowing Luke, how did that even become an idea to have him do that? :rolleyes:

It’s the same Luke that almost killed his father and stepped back from it. And for the same reason. It’s a purely human moment. He’s not some morally concrete superman. He’s flawed just like the rest of us. He realises he had notions above his station taking on students and failing and on the other end he could do the right thing and kill Ben before he comes kylo and kills billions of people and save the galaxy but he fails at that too.
Ben was always going dark no matter what. Luke doesn’t realise that til he has Yoda and later Leia tell him as much. And even though he failed to take him out, he will by proxy when Rey takes him out.

nix

david75 wrote: »

It’s the same Luke that almost killed his father and stepped back from it. And for the same reason. It’s a purely human moment. He’s not some morally concrete superman. He’s flawed just like the rest of us. He realises he had notions above his station taking on students and failing and on the other end he could do the right thing and kill Ben before he comes kylo and kills billions of people and save the galaxy but he fails at that too.
Ben was always going dark no matter what. Luke doesn’t realise that til he has Yoda and later Leia tell him as much. And even though he failed to take him out, he will by proxy when Rey takes him out.

There is a big difference in almost taking the step to killing your father who has killed and enslaved millions and killing a nephew who he has loved and watched grow old since his birth, who has done nothing evil other than dreamed of evil.

Have a talk with him and sway him away from these dark feelings, you know, do the unclle/jedi training thing, not cut him down in bed.

Doesnt. Make. Sense.

Vladimir Poontang

It's bad writing and demonstrates a poor understanding of the existing universe, story,characters etc on behalf of Rian Johnson.

There are many examples of this throughout the movie from beginning to end.

This is why it is a poor movie.

Sad Professor

Luke's moment of weakness with Ben highlights what was always Luke's Achilles heel. His tendency to look to the future rather than the present. Yoda berates him for this in TESB (and again in TLJ). He warns him that the future is always "in motion". But Luke doesn't listen and rushes off to save his friends, who it turns out didn't need saving and ended up having to save him instead. This was foolish and reckless but part of a pattern of behaviour with Luke. All 3 films of the OT end with Luke being saved (by Han, Leia and then Vader).

While Luke learned his lesson from this and apologised to Yoda in ROTJ, that this would remain something he would struggle with for the rest of his life makes a lot of sense to me. That's what happened with Ben. He saw a terrible future (probably pretty close to the one that happened) and for a moment, just a moment, believed it and thought he could stop it by killing him. It was a mistake which tipped Ben over the edge but that probably would have happened with or without Luke's moment of weakness. Luke's bigger mistake was letting this moment define him, but again I think this makes sense given his obsession with the future.

It's also worth remembering that Yoda and Obi-wan did not agree with Luke that Anakin could be saved and wanted him to kill Vader. They both thought Anakin was lost forever. Why? Because they saw with their own eyes what he had done. Luke didn't have their experiences and it was probably only his naivety and recklessness that made him think he could bring Vader back. He was right, but what if he had been wrong? He gambled the fate of the whole galaxy on a feeling. Surely as the years went on and he learned more about Vader and the history of the Jedi this question would have gnawed at him.

I love that at the end of TLJ Luke finally heeds Yoda's lessons. He doesn't rush off to save his friends but stays where he is and uses the Force - not to save them but to distract Kylo so that they can save themselves. And in doing so, he creates an inspiring myth that will resurrect the Resistance.

david75

nix wrote: »

There is a big difference in almost taking the step to killing your father who has killed and enslaved millions and killing a nephew who he has loved and watched grow old since his birth, who has done nothing evil other than dreamed of evil.

Have a talk with him and sway him away from these dark feelings, you know, do the unclle/jedi training thing, not cut him down in bed.

Doesnt. Make. Sense.

It does for exactly that reason. He could save billions of lives if he just ends this one. And he can’t do it. It’s the kill baby hitler if you could, would you thing.
If he had actually killed him I’d take your point that it’s a far too far away from Luke. He doesn’t though, it’s just repeating the beat with Vader but at a different point. and thatt he can’t is where the drive for his character and story is. Conflict is the root of any good story.

Earthhorse

Sad Professor wrote: »

All 3 films of the OT end with Luke being saved (by Han, Leia and then Vader).

Literally Vader saves Luke but the whole theme of the movie is Vader's redemption; Luke saves Vader and thus the universe. That's the whole point.

It's also worth remembering that Yoda and Obi-wan did not agree with Luke that Anakin could be saved and wanted him to kill Vader. They both thought Anakin was lost forever. Why? Because they saw with their own eyes what he had done. Luke didn't have their experiences and it was probably only his naivety and recklessness that made him think he could bring Vader back. He was right, but what if he had been wrong? He gambled the fate of the whole galaxy on a feeling. Surely as the years went on and he learned more about Vader and the history of the Jedi this question would have gnawed at him.

He didn't gamble and lose though, he gambled and won. And his "feeling" shows us that his instincts were correct, not Yoda's and Obi Wan's (and we all know how good a master he turned out to be). Not sure what original trilogy you watched but to say Luke wasn't aware of Vader's cruelty is pure nonsense. He kidnapped and tortured his friends, he blew up his sister's home planet; what more does he need to learn?

Leaving that aside all of what you're suggesting takes place off screen and we are not to know about it. If they wanted to introduce a change in Luke's character they could have done it in a less crack-handed manner than by having him toss a light saber over his shoulder. But almost everything in this movie is crack-handed and no amount of long winded explanations are going to change that.

david75

Earthhorse wrote: »

Literally Vader saves Luke but the whole theme of the movie is Vader's redemption; Luke saves Vader and thus the universe. That's the whole point.



He didn't gamble and lose though, he gambled and won. And his "feeling" shows us that his instincts were correct, not Yoda's and Obi Wan's (and we all know how good a master he turned out to be). Not sure what original trilogy you watched but to say Luke wasn't aware of Vader's cruelty is pure nonsense. He kidnapped and tortured his friends, he blew up his sister's home planet; what more does he need to learn?

Leaving that aside all of what you're suggesting takes place off screen and we are not to know about it. If they wanted to introduce a change in Luke's character they could have done it in a less crack-handed manner than by having him toss a light saber over his shoulder. But almost everything in this movie is crack-handed and no amount of long winded explanations are going to change that.

I didn’t write it a pal of mine did. I just love his writing and thoughtful takes on things. I’m not sure which other depiction of Luke you’d prefer. Jedi super warrior that comes to save the day immediately? That doesn’t happen in the middle act of any trilogy really. It would have been game over if he had.

Earthhorse

david75 wrote: »

I didn’t write it a pal of mine did. I just love his writing and thoughtful takes on things. I’m not sure which other depiction of Luke you’d prefer. Jedi super warrior that comes to save the day immediately? That doesn’t happen in the middle act of any trilogy really. It would have been game over if he had.

I wasn't actually referring to your post of your mate's writing (I didn't read it). But I guess it would fall into the category of the kind of thing I'm referring to.

There was no particular depiction of Luke I was looking forward to per se but if they wanted the character to be more cynical they could have handled it more skillfully.

On reflection I would have liked Luke to refuse to teach her but for Rey to stay on the island, following his routine, such as island hopping on the cabers, and for her to learn from him inadvertently by doing so. Perhaps he would come around to teaching her upon seeing her progress.

But no, I never expected him to come charging in to save the day at all. Finding Luke was meant to be a last ditch attempt by the rebellion forces not some instant victory. Just because we have a movie that went full force and flat footed in a direction I'm not wild about doesn't mean I want the same thing in the opposite direction.

david75

Earthhorse wrote: »

On reflection I would have liked Luke to refuse to teach her but for Rey to stay on the island, following his routine, such as island hopping on the cabers, and for her to learn from him inadvertently by doing so. Perhaps he would come around to teaching her upon seeing her progress.

Ehhhh that’s exactly what happened

Goodshape

I think the whole film suffered from there being no time between this and TFA. I've read repeatedly that Rian Johnson just couldn't resist finishing *that scene* between Luke and Rey... And all that amounted to really was a cheap laugh. "Subverting our expectations" that something interesting might happen, by not doing anything interesting and just tossing the lightsaber aside instead. Very clever.

And consequently Rey gets virtually no training, or even time, to develop the skills she needs to display in the new film, the entire resistance is stuck in some uninteresting limbo for the entire thing, and just in general nothing has happened since the last time we saw everyone.

But, lol, he threw the lightsaber away. Totes worth it.

david75

Wow. My housemate is an editor. He just ‘fixed’ The Last Jedi. Have Finn and Rose in the prison and DJ overhearing them and saying ‘i can get you out of here’ and leaving the cell door open and then cut to the shot of the ship flying off Canto Bight. We lose all the unnecessary horse chase bit and the audience can just fill in the rest. If he can walk out of the cell so easily of course he can get them off there. Then later we see he wants payment anyways.

This is perfect I reckon.

Sad Professor

Earthhorse wrote: »

Leaving that aside all of what you're suggesting takes place off screen and we are not to know about it. If they wanted to introduce a change in Luke's character they could have done it in a less crack-handed manner than by having him toss a light saber over his shoulder. But almost everything in this movie is crack-handed and no amount of long winded explanations are going to change that.

Nearly all of what I wrote happened on screen in the previous movies and is consistent with Luke’s character in TLJ. But yeah other stuff happened off screen. It’s 30 years later and the movie can't be expected to explain all of that, just enough of it that is relevant to this story. A story which is not primarily about Luke but about Rey, Kylo etc.

Personally I loved Luke throwing his lightsaber over his shoulder. It's funny and knocks the audience off-balance, immediately establishing that things are not going to play out the way you expect. However, I appreciate how disconcerting this moment and everything that followed might be for some fans. Many fans were upset by the implication in TFA that Han was a bad father. It's tough but these characters cannot be expected to stay true to everyone's childhood ideal of them.

david75

Sad Professor wrote: »

Nearly all of what I wrote happened on screen in the previous movies and is consistent with Luke’s character in TLJ. But yeah other stuff happened off screen. It’s 30 years later and the movie can't be expected to explain all of that, just enough of it that is relevant to this story. A story which is not primarily about Luke but about Rey, Kylo etc.

Personally I loved Luke throwing his lightsaber over his shoulder. It's funny and knocks the audience off-blanace, immediately establishing that things are not going to play out the way you expect. However, I appreciate how disconcerting this moment and everything that followed might be for some fans. Many fans were upset by the implication in TFA that Han was a bad father. It's tough but these characters cannot be expected to stay true to everyone's childhood ideal of them.

Perfectly put.
Read a great line today that said ‘when Luke throws the saber over his shoulder that’s the moment you’re either with the film and Luke, or you’re with the saber.’

J Mysterio

Goodshape wrote: »

I think the whole film suffered from there being no time between this and TFA. I've read repeatedly that Rian Johnson just couldn't resist finishing *that scene* between Luke and Rey... And all that amounted to really was a cheap laugh. "Subverting our expectations" that something interesting might happen, by not doing anything interesting and just tossing the lightsaber aside instead. Very clever.

And consequently Rey gets virtually no training, or even time, to develop the skills she needs to display in the new film, the entire resistance is stuck in some uninteresting limbo for the entire thing, and just in general nothing has happened since the last time we saw everyone.

But, lol, he threw the lightsaber away. Totes worth it.

My gut reaction to this was to blurt out 'what?!?' rather loudly. I'm normally quiet and respectful in the cinema but really...

I suppose there is a Yoda-ish element of goofiness to it (Yoda on Dagobah) but it was too much.

Its something that I can imagine the scriptwriters comin up with and finding funny in a brainstorm but it should never have made the film. It's just too flippant.

Wibbs

Sad Professor wrote: »

It's tough but these characters cannot be expected to stay true to everyone's childhood ideal of them.

It's genuinely not that, at least for me. I'd have no problem with Luke going into exile. If it had been well written. And it's really not and demonstrably so.

The OT is clearly aimed more at the younger audience and is simple, but the underlying story is not so simple and it is consistent. This is aiming for a general audience with the regularity of BIG BANGS and at what they think are the nerdy/post modernist among the "millennials"*. IE the general vibe of the writers/director. There's an underlying cynicism to both approaches. TFA was cynical beyond belief.






*a title I can't abide BTW.

Goodshape

#TeamSaber

I don't really mind that he did it, just that that scene seems like the only reason these films were back-to-back in the timeline, and it was hardly necessary. A lot can happen in a year or two which would make character and story progressions much easier to stomach.

Like Rey, obviously, who's only been off her home planet about a week or something. And Kylo was bowing down to an all powerful god like Snoke only a couple of days before slicing him in two. Han's dead and so very quickly forgotten. Who the hell are any of these new characters who weren't here yesterday and why should I care.

Wibbs

J Mysterio wrote: »

I suppose there is a Yoda-ish element of goofiness to it (Yoda on Dagobah) but it was too much.

Its something that I can imagine the scriptwriters comin up with and finding funny in a brainstorm but it should never have made the film. It's just too flippant.

And isn't his character. Never was. Save for the very first encounter with Luke to scope him out and see his reactions and prejudices. After that Yoda is all serious business. A clown he is not. Another example of where the writers can't seem to understand nuance of character(Ren is a collection of twitches) or the difference between humour and cheap gags.

Andrew Beef

I saw it again today and it’s gone up in my estimation.

Luke is excellent, Kylo Ren is excellent, and there are some fantastic scenes.

8/10 for me.

Sad Professor

Wibbs wrote: »

It's genuinely not that, at least for me. I'd have no problem with Luke going into exile. If it had been well written. And it's really not and demonstrably so.

I respect that but I disagree. I think its well written for all the reasons I've described.

Goodshape wrote: »

#TeamSaber

I don't really mind that he did it, just that that scene seems like the only reason these films were back-to-back in the timeline, and it was hardly necessary. A lot can happen in a year or two which would make character and story progressions much easier to stomach.

Like Rey, obviously, who's only been off her home planet about a week or something. And Kylo was bowing down to an all powerful god like Snoke only a couple of days before slicing him in two. Han's dead and so very quickly forgotten. Who the hell are any of these new characters who weren't here yesterday and why should I care.

I haven't thought too much about this tbh. Cinema compresses time. The other movies do it too. Luke seemingly only spends a couple of days, if that, with Yoda in TESB. And they all seem to be able to travel to different star systems without hyperspace in a couple of hours. So Luke takes fencing lessons off-screen between ANH and TESB even though its never mentioned, and Rey has transferable skills with a staff from years spent fending for herself on Jakku - it's all the same to me.

david75

Wibbs wrote: »

It's genuinely not that, at least for me. I'd have no problem with Luke going into exile. If it had been well written. And it's really not and demonstrably so.

The OT is clearly aimed more at the younger audience and is simple, but the underlying story is not so simple and it is consistent. This is aiming for a general audience with the regularity of BIG BANGS and at what they think are the nerdy/post modernist among the "millennials"*. IE the general vibe of the writers/director. There's an underlying cynicism to both approaches. TFA was cynical beyond belief.






*a title I can't abide BTW.

At the same time, The thing that’s making a lot of people uncomfortable is that this new trilogy is pitched and aimed at a younger audience in the now. In humour tone and story. It clearly is. And somehow people are offended by that.

david75

Have to go out.
Thanks for a deadly load of thoughts and ideas and revelations you all gave and sorry for being always sh!t bombing this thread. Star Wars is the world to me. Hope you all have a great night and new year. Good luck and may the force be with you.

Goodshape

david75 wrote: »

this new trilogy is pitched and aimed at a younger audience in the now. In humour tone and story. It clearly is. And somehow people are offended by that.

Is it though? The new films may be full of more childish humour than the old (not that the old were exempt from it, mind you) but they're also rated PG-13, and with good reason too.

They're not family films anymore. Definitely not children's films. Just childish.

conorhal

Wibbs wrote: »

It's genuinely not that, at least for me. I'd have no problem with Luke going into exile. If it had been well written. And it's really not and demonstrably so.

The OT is clearly aimed more at the younger audience and is simple, but the underlying story is not so simple and it is consistent. This is aiming for a general audience with the regularity of BIG BANGS and at what they think are the nerdy/post modernist among the "millennials"*. IE the general vibe of the writers/director. There's an underlying cynicism to both approaches. TFA was cynical beyond belief.

It's the postmodernist cynicism of TLJ that bothers me the most TBH and the fact that this postmodern cynicism is aimed at kids.
Starwars was the antidote to the 70's postmodern cynicism that had begun to pervade the culture in the wake of Watergate, Vietnam and the dark demise of the hippy movement.
Starwars was a new HOPE. It was hopeful, built philosophically (as Lucas has stated) on Joseph Campbell's 'The Hero's Journey', a collection of tropes and themes that are cross-cultural all around the world, it is built on a respect for hero's and the arc necessary for them to become such, it's built on the myths of the past.

TLJ is built and tearing down that past and tearing down hero's and that is a horrible message to offer, A New Hopelessness, given that times are as bleak now, and hope in as short supply as it was at the end of the 70's, TLJ is an antidote to nothing and it's philosophy is in direct opposition to that of the original trilogy and seems as willful, childish and destructive and without motive as Kylo Ren himself.

radonicus

david75 wrote: »

Perfectly put.
Read a great line today that said ‘when Luke throws the saber over his shoulder that’s the moment you’re either with the film and Luke, or you’re with the saber.’

That's pretty accurate I think, certainly the case for me. Abrams had set the expectation and whatever about the intent Johnson's handling of it was too jarring with what had gone before.



#TeamSaber. Excellent

Wibbs

Sad Professor wrote: »

I respect that but I disagree.

That I am clinging to a childhood version of them? I'm really not SP and I had issues even as a callow youth with a couple of things in the OT. The biggest being Leia's transformation from "clever leader of a resistance, who takes no crap but can be equally emotionally hit by tragedy. "you're bit short to be a stormtrooper. You call this an escape plan? Here give me that blaster and keep the walking rug outa my way" equal character(if not more a "hero" than Luke) in A New Hope, to the doe eyed lovestruck girl needing rescue in Empire. It jangled with me at the time and when I watched the trilogy again it jangled more. It just wasn't her character. She came back more to herself in the final flic, trying to save Han on her own, throttling Fat Boy Fat while wearing that bikini(I liked that image, beyond the "pwhoooar" bit. I've reduced you to a sex object on a leash. Fcuk you, I'll strangles you with that same leash). She was generally being her. I still find it odd that dip regarding her in Empire in what is otherwise the best overall of the OT.

At least in both TFA and TLJ it's still Leia, only older and more considered. Her character still rings "true". As did Hans(though he was killed, which was "safe" going forward). Luke's not so much. He could not be seen as the iconic Luke, for both marketing and internal reasons. He was always impulsive and looking to the future, but by the end of the OT that was replaced by a calmness. Even if the character had suffered this failure - after all his character was well used to same - he always came back from it. That restlessness was the core of him and referenced all the time. Not buggering off to the Space Skelligs for 30 odd years. A couple of years maybe and then he'd get itchy feet again.

I suppose what I am clinging to are good stories. Stories that are consistent. Stories that resonate universally beyond the two hours of flickering darkness with marketing led plot points.

So Luke takes fencing lessons off-screen between ANH and TESB even though its never mentioned, and Rey has transferable skills with a staff from years spent fending for herself on Jakku - it's all the same to me.

The major and glaringly obvious difference is Luke's skills are extremely basic, pretty much throughout. And he is constantly bested. Save for the one shot on the Death Star he needs constant rescue in ANH. In Empire Han has to save him on Hoth in the opening scenes. Yes he did the force pull with the sabre but he struggled with it. Yoda is very dubious about him, agrees to train him only to be disappointed in his progress, then really disappointed in his hothead decision to leave training to save his mates. Then his Da schools him in the reality of his skill level. "The force is strong in you, but, you're not a Jedi yet" then offers to train him to his potential. Though is a little enough impressed with his basic talent. Not impressed enough to not lop off his hand for the craic like. Luke barely makes it out of Empire alive.

Rey on the other hand is Awesome™ from the get go. Best pilot, best engineer, best fighter and goes from zero to force voice/telepathy/sabre user in a matter of 48 hours. And bests a trained dude in sabre fighting. And in TLJ she goes from "it means moving rocks, yeah?" to the most Awesome™ force user that impresses Luke in again hours. Even takes him on and beats him. Yet a few hours later Luke is so strong he can project himself across a galaxy, but he can't take a newbie on in a stick fight? She actually force grabs his sabre and holds it to his throat. Eh.. wut? The deleted scenes of Rey and Luke taking on Ren and the Knights might have helped here.

Compare and contrast. As I said and still hold to, she's a Disney Princess, rather than anything approaching the hero's or heroine's(can we even use that word nowadays? ) journey, or a Mary Sue for that matter. The two are easily confused but they are different. Which is fine if that's what they want to sell as a concept. Disney have a Disney Princess brand and marketing dept. However she is in no way comparable to Luke's journey, or the hero's journey in general. Which again is fine, but I just can't understand those who see the two characters as comparable.

*aside* what I really dislike about it is that it wears the hat of "progressive equality", but is anything but. It reduces women's roles within that narrative as born not made. That all you need to do is feel and believe and you're magically great, because you're Awesome™ as you are. Though at least they didn't tart her up and sexualise Rey as they do with the other Disney Princesses. So there's that.

david75 wrote: »

At the same time, The thing that’s making a lot of people uncomfortable is that this new trilogy is pitched and aimed at a younger audience in the now. In humour tone and story. It clearly is. And somehow people are offended by that.

I'm only "offended" when Hollywood treats audiences as marketing demographics and buttons to be pushed(or when they get "preachy").

david75 wrote: »

Have to go out.
Thanks for a deadly load of thoughts and ideas and revelations you all gave and sorry for being always sh!t bombing this thread. Star Wars is the world to me. Hope you all have a great night and new year. Good luck and may the force be with you.

And the same to you Sir. Have a good one!