Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

The way around this in the next film/trilogy is to have it just be all kids of different nationalities being taught by an alien of indeterminate gender.

If these same people start complaining about representation at that point then they’re really exposing themselves.

To be honest though anyone making even an articulately made point about women or different ethnicities ‘ruining’ Star Wars or anything else, obviously has bigger personal issues.

The Nal

They should keep the Leia character in the next movie but replace Carrie with a black disabled transsexual and make no reference to it.

Saruhashi

Gbear wrote: »

That really wasn't my read at all.

One of the themes of the film was an exploration of the nature of heroism.

I don't think the concept of heroism was torn down but rather a particular version of it, that the film argues is hollow and self-serving.

Poe's gambit to destroy the dreadnaught comes across as heroic if you present it in a certain way, but in the film we see the consequences of such heroism.

That is contrasted with the heroism of not having a last charge of the light brigade moment and instead saving everyone's lives. Rose comes right out and says it.

It's a defensive heroism of protecting what you love rather than aggressive heroism of destruction.

Finn's heroism is more in keeping with the other sort, except in his case it's selfless - he's gone from wanting to run away, to wanting to save Rey, to being willing to get himself killed to save everyone else.

Rey doesn't really have her moment here but she understands what heroism she needs in how she realises that she doesn't need to be a 1-woman army to save her friends but rather has to lift some rocks to let them out.

It's a heroism that concerns itself with protecting people and allowing for all good things to stem from that, instead of destroying the enemy.
It'll be interesting to see how that's played out in episode 9.

JJ Abrams makes pretty films but he doesn't care if the film itself is entirely vapid, so it wouldn't surprise me if the heavy character lifting done in this film is ****ed in the bin in favour of more sweet explosions, nostalgic easter-eggs and lightsaber duels.

Rian Johnson's film wasn't some work of a genius. The "clever" stuff he does is all fairly surface level and on the nose, but Abrams can't even manage that.

I'm gonna say that this kind of demonstrates how much of a mess the film really is. If it's trying to explore these points.

The start of the movie establishes that the First Order dreadnought ship can and will destroy the entire resistance fleet. So Poe has a plan to destroy the dreadnought before that can happen.

Leia decides "no" and orders Poe back but she allows the bombers to continue? Why doesn't she order the bombers to stop? Who's in charge here?

So they do destroy the dreadnought but at significant cost of life. Then they jump to hyperspace.

At this point they realize they have been tracked through hyperspace and can't jump again because if they are tracked again they will have no fuel. This completely vindicates Poe as now they are being pursued by the First Order sans previously mentioned fleet destroying dreadnought.

Without the dreadnought the First Order have to chase them through space. Close enough to threaten their ships but not quite close enough to actually destroy them.

Rose's line about saving what you love instead of destroying what you hate is all fine... unless the thing you hate is actively and persistently trying to destroy what you love.

IF the movie is trying to make a point then it also contradicting that same point without properly exploring that contradiction.

When Rose "saves" Finn, she doesn't know that Luke will show up and also really nothing could have stopped the First Order's army from just killing both herself and Finn as they lay on the battlefield.

Anyway, it's Luke who sacrifices himself to save the resistance anyway, in the same way that Finn intended.

That's one of the odd ways that this movie is praised. It's claimed that the film "deconstructs" heroism or the Jedi or The Force when actually it really doesn't.

At the end of the day the bad guys are still genocidal maniacs, the good guys sacrifice themselves to save the day and Rey who is unnaturally "strong with the force" is the newest in a long line of Jedi.

Every point the film makes is almost immediately contradicted to bring us back to the status quo from the previous 7 "episodes".

Luke: "It's time for the Jedi to end"
Some time later...
Luke: "I will not be the last Jedi"
*camera cuts to Rey lifting rocks with The Force*

We'll be right back with the usual good vs evil and heroism tropes that TLJ supposedly "deconstructed" in the next installment.

Even to say it "subverted expectations" is a little untrue to be honest. Sure they killed Snoke, implied that Rey is a "nobody" and went in a strange direction with Luke but those are actually quite superficial aspects. It's still pretty much the evil First Order vs the good Rebels with no heel or face turns and no real blurring of the lines between good and evil either.

Turn Rey full Darkside or have Finn rejoin the First Order or maybe even question if General Leia is actually a warmonger throwing thousands of soldiers and pilots into the machine to be chewed up and spat out all because of a personal vendetta with Snoke.

Maybe then I would say "holy crap" but the Episode 8 that we got? Was it really such a masterful "deconstrution" of Star wars and did it really "subvert expectations" in the way that the critics have praised?

Saruhashi

The Nal wrote: »

They should keep the Leia character in the next movie but replace Carrie with a black disabled transsexual and make no reference to it.

Critics: "They subverted expectations - 5/5"
Fans: "WTF? They totally changed Leias character - 0/5"

American Right: "This replacement of white characters with SJW characters will not stand! You will not replace us! #BoycottStarWars"
American Left: "The new Princess Leia is everything we need in a Post-Trump world... and Nazi trolls hate it! #PrincessOfBravery"

Disney: "What shall we buy with this 1.5 billion dollars?"

Wibbs

Saruhashi wrote: »

It's the same with Rey, really. Actually I don't know if anyone could do a better job than Daisy Ridley but for sure I don't see how swapping her out for a man would make any difference at all.

Oh it wouldn't. He'd still be a "Mary Sue", or "Micheal Sue" that's just awesome because of the force superpower. And would be just as temporary.

I think the "Mary Sue" nature of Rey's character is not really to do with the characters gender and more to do with what the current generation of movie audiences wants to see in these family friendly action adventures.

Pretty much. Like I reckoned earlier she's more a Disney Princess, than a Mary Sue.

Clearly they will go the way that market research tells them to go. They will do whatever makes the most money.

This +1000.

silverharp

Gbear wrote: »

That really wasn't my read at all.

One of the themes of the film was an exploration of the nature of heroism.

I don't think the concept of heroism was torn down but rather a particular version of it, that the film argues is hollow and self-serving.

Poe's gambit to destroy the dreadnaught comes across as heroic if you present it in a certain way, but in the film we see the consequences of such heroism.

That is contrasted with the heroism of not having a last charge of the light brigade moment and instead saving everyone's lives. Rose comes right out and says it.

It's a defensive heroism of protecting what you love rather than aggressive heroism of destruction.

Finn's heroism is more in keeping with the other sort, except in his case it's selfless - he's gone from wanting to run away, to wanting to save Rey, to being willing to get himself killed to save everyone else.

Rey doesn't really have her moment here but she understands what heroism she needs in how she realises that she doesn't need to be a 1-woman army to save her friends but rather has to lift some rocks to let them out.

It's a heroism that concerns itself with protecting people and allowing for all good things to stem from that, instead of destroying the enemy.
It'll be interesting to see how that's played out in episode 9.

JJ Abrams makes pretty films but he doesn't care if the film itself is entirely vapid, so it wouldn't surprise me if the heavy character lifting done in this film is ****ed in the bin in favour of more sweet explosions, nostalgic easter-eggs and lightsaber duels.

Rian Johnson's film wasn't some work of a genius. The "clever" stuff he does is all fairly surface level and on the nose, but Abrams can't even manage that.

the theme of heroism is an interesting one, but the first star war movies weren't about brute force. They were pretty much always David V Goliath and assumed that any encounters involved making small sacrifices for oversized gains by finding weaknesses in the superior sized enemy.
The clever escape plan in this movie was perfectly fine and in keeping with the spirit of the movies but the setup was lazy/implausible and then the dumb drama that the plan was secret made no sense, it was just bad story telling. At the same time we didn't get any satisfying hero element of someone beating the odds like in the first movie where Luke beats the odds to fire the vital shot.

Slydice

This post feels .. what do the kids say.. meta?

https://twitter.com/boards/status/948946119828045824

david75

Slydice wrote: »

This post feels .. what do the kids say.. meta?

https://twitter.com/boards/status/948946119828045824

Can’t wait to go back to skellig. It’s such a brilliant experience and a stunning place to visit.

david75

We see Luke Skywalker as hero and myth deconstructed here. At least in the first two acts. That’s kind of the point of his story here and seems to have thrown a lot of us. Me included initially. Star Wars hasn’t done this before whereas the big comic book heroes all did it ages ago. I think it’s the perfect way to go with him to set up his sacrifice in the end. It’s the most true to the spirit and law of the Jedi than anything else he possibly could have done.
We can try jam in any kind of modern political analysis or narrative but it doesn’t have any traction when it comes to his place in Star Wars vs our expectations of it. He’s still on the hero’s journey when we find him and his final act is perfect end to his story and worthy of the character and Star Wars.

Tipsy McSwagger

Watched it today and I'm still of the opinion SW has only one truly great film TESB, this was pretty boring and just didn't grab my attention at all. As for that scene with Leia swimming in space, christ what were they thinking.


PS - I didn't mind Rose at all.
PPS - Most of the audience was made up of kids, some left halfway through, and the cinema was completely quiet with zero reaction to what was happening on screen.

david75

Regardless of your feelings this is a really good and very funny breakdown of TLJ and it’s flaws and successes. Kevin Smith and Marc somebody. Laughing along

A good listen.

https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/fat-man-on-batman/id532661418?mt=2&i=1000398476053

Andrew Beef

It is just not credible to say that The Last Jedi is worse than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.

Trade blockades and the difficulties caused by sand...

Seriously?

david75

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It is just not credible to say that The Last Jedi is worse than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.

Trade blockades and the difficulties caused by sand...

Seriously?

They didn’t say it was worse than the holiday special at least.

Bacchus

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It is just not credible to say that The Last Jedi is worse than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.

Trade blockades and the difficulties caused by sand...

Seriously?

I'll make the distinction that.
TLJ is a better made movie than TPM and AotC.
TLJ is the least fun I've had watching a Star Wars movie.

All three films have massive problems but I credit TPM and AotC for doing something different than ANOTHER rehash of the resistance on the brink of annihilation being chased down by the Empire/First Order. Ok, they shook the format with the (rather dull) chase scenario but 'same same'. I'd also take the action in TPM and AotC over TLJ. Outside of the opening bombing attack, I found the action kinda flat. The attack on the salt planet threatened to be great but quickly dissipated to nothing. What did that squadron of rebel fighters actually achieve? It could have been worth it if they allowed Finn sacrifice himself to stop the mini death ray but in the end, they flew out and turned tail after half of them were shot down. In favour of TLJ, it looks amazing and the acting is probably the best a Star Wars movie has produced. I'm struggling to find praise beyond that. The Finn/Rose stuff was a chore. Poe was neutered. Keeping the escape plan a secret was as frustrating as it was stupid. Any neat ideas the teased were just teases that aimed to play on audience expectations. Yes TP and AotC are littered with awful dialogue and boring trade disputes but TLJ has plenty of sins of its own. Oh, I did enjoy the reveal that Luke was still on the island at the end. That was good.

All three movies are several kinds of stupid in their own way but as I said, I enjoyed watching the prequels... I was kinda bored watching this.

Andrew Beef

I challenge any Star Wars fan to deny that their pulse raced when:

- Poe took on the Dreadnought

- Snoke was killed

- Kylo Ren and Rey battled the Imperial Guards

- Yoda showed up

- Luke Skywalker walked out to face the First Order army alone

- The Millenium Falcon battled the Tie Fighters

The Phantom Menace was a disgrace of a Star Wars movie; to contend that this movie is the worst so far is just crazy. It is not perfect, and has the Mary Poppins scene which is one of the worst ever, but it is far from rubbish.

david75

Bacchus wrote: »

I'll make the distinction that.
TLJ is a better made movie than TPM and AotC.
TLJ is the least fun I've had watching a Star Wars movie.

All three films have massive problems but I credit TPM and AotC for doing something different than ANOTHER rehash of the resistance on the brink of annihilation being chased down by the Empire/First Order. Ok, they shook the format with the (rather dull) chase scenario but 'same same'. I'd also take the action in TPM and AotC over TLJ. Outside of the opening bombing attack, I found the action kinda flat. The attack on the salt planet threatened to be great but quickly dissipated to nothing. What did that squadron of rebel fighters actually achieve? It could have been worth it if they allowed Finn sacrifice himself to stop the mini death ray but in the end, they flew out and turned tail after half of them were shot down. In favour of TLJ, it looks amazing and the acting is probably the best a Star Wars movie has produced. I'm struggling to find praise beyond that. The Finn/Rose stuff was a chore. Poe was neutered. Keeping the escape plan a secret was as frustrating as it was stupid. Any neat ideas the teased were just teases that aimed to play on audience expectations. Yes TP and AotC are littered with awful dialogue and boring trade disputes but TLJ has plenty of sins of its own. Oh, I did enjoy the reveal that Luke was still on the island at the end. That was good.

All three movies are several kinds of stupid in their own way but as I said, I enjoyed watching the prequels... I was kinda bored watching this.

It gets better the more you watch it ...



*runs out of the thread*

nix

david75 wrote: »

*runs out of the thread*

Yeah right

Useful.Idiot

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I challenge any Star Wars fan to deny that their pulse raced when:

- Poe took on the Dreadnought

- Snoke was killed

- Kylo Ren and Rey battled the Imperial Guards

- Yoda showed up

- Luke Skywalker walked out to face the First Order army alone

- The Millenium Falcon battled the Tie Fighters

The Phantom Menace was a disgrace of a Star Wars movie; to contend that this movie is the worst so far is just crazy. It is not perfect, and has the Mary Poppins scene which is one of the worst ever, but it is far from rubbish.

Snoke and Luke walking out by himself were cool, the rest not so much. I reckon the lightsaber duel from the phantom menace beats all those.

david75

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I challenge any Star Wars fan to deny that their pulse raced when:

- Poe took on the Dreadnought

- Snoke was killed

- Kylo Ren and Rey battled the Imperial Guards

- Yoda showed up

- Luke Skywalker walked out to face the First Order army alone

- The Millenium Falcon battled the Tie Fighters

The Phantom Menace was a disgrace of a Star Wars movie; to contend that this movie is the worst so far is just crazy. It is not perfect, and has the Mary Poppins scene which is one of the worst ever, but it is far from rubbish.

Cool list.
Something we’ve rarely seen here from the several posters still posting that hated it and I’d be interested to know. Write a list or short piece about all the stuff you did like about it. What did work in Star Wars terms and film making terms. With no buts here’s why it didn’t...we’ve heard you all say it already

Expecting not many responses to this

Tipsy McSwagger

Useful.Idiot wrote: »

Snoke and Luke walking out by himself were cool, the rest not so much. I reckon the lightsaber duel from the phantom menace beats all those.

No it doesn’t because it was too choreographed, Dual of the Fates is fcuking awesome though.

nix

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

No it doesn’t because it was too choreographed

Whatcha mean by that?

radonicus

david75 wrote: »

Cool list.
Something we’ve rarely seen here from the several posters still posting that hated it and I’d be interested to know. Write a list or short piece about all the stuff you did like about it. What did work in Star Wars terms and film making terms. With no buts here’s why it didn’t...we’ve heard you all say it already

Expecting not many responses to this

The music and crawl.

Ren in his Tie fighter.

Luke & R2D2, and the hologram of Leia - the best use of OT/ canon stuff ever. And possibly more evocative than when originally used.

When Holdo crashes into the star destroyer.

Luke walking out to face them down.

The final scene with the young kid.



The best bits of TLJ are some of the best ever.

Vladimir Poontang

The final scene is a ****ing disgrace - the perfect ending to the disaster preceding it though

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

Cool list.
Something we’ve rarely seen here from the several posters still posting that hated it and I’d be interested to know. Write a list or short piece about all the stuff you did like about it. What did work in Star Wars terms and film making terms. With no buts here’s why it didn’t...we’ve heard you all say it already

Expecting not many responses to this

I enjoyed the build up and speculation following Episode 7.
Buying midnight show tickets.
Showing up to the cinema and feeling that buzz of excitement.
I liked the soundtrack.
Enjoyed the "white and red" look of Crait.
I was happy to see the end credits.
The Internet conversation after seeing the movie has been great.

Tipsy McSwagger

nix wrote: »

Whatcha mean by that?

The fight between Obi Wan, Qui Gon Jinn and Darth Maul is terrible, saved by a stunning piece of music.

Andrew Beef

R2 D2 playing the Leia recording was a fantastic scene

Saruhashi

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It is just not credible to say that The Last Jedi is worse than The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.

Trade blockades and the difficulties caused by sand...

Seriously?

I suppose from a technical point of view you could say that TLJ is far superior but then I think TPM was a bit of a technical wonder in it's time?

Obviously it's going back a good few years and the old memory might be a bit hazy but I felt like TPM and AotC were at least enjoyable experiences with a good few "urgh" and "WTF" moments.

On subsequent viewings, yes, it became clear that these films are a bit awful but at the time I was still somewhat interested.

I found TLJ to not be an enjoyable film. I would describe it as quite a cynical movie to be honest. I described the film as being a bit "passive aggressive" towards the fans in the days after I saw it and I still kind of stand by that now.

I get what they were trying to do but I just thought it was a bit out of place for Star Wars and the aftermath of the movie has really opened my eyes to the level of hatred people seem to have for "Star Wars nerds". I get that some people are a bit too passionate about Star Wars but the pure delight that some people have when seeing that the movie seems to have alienated a lot of long-term fans is a bit disappointing.

I'd point to the scene with Leia flying through space as something that's so bizarre I'm not even sure how it managed to not be cut from the film. It's like a mad idea you'd hear in the "making of" documentary or DVD commentary where you'd think "I'm glad they never did that".

Each to their own, I guess. I've seen people defend Batman v Superman, Ghostbusters 2016 and Transformers: Age of Extinction with no shortage of passion and I think those movies were really awful too.

I'd say TLJ is just as bad as the prequels but it's bad in completely different ways.

david75

Haha. This is funny. And true.

Woman in space surviving for 20 seconds and using her latent force abilities to save herself

TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Guy with legs chopped off and one arm chopped off and on fire *in lava* survives

Yeah that’s fine

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

I suppose from a technical point of view you could say that TLJ is far superior but then I think TPM was a bit of a technical wonder in it's time?

Obviously it's going back a good few years and the old memory might be a bit hazy but I felt like TPM and AotC were at least enjoyable experiences with a good few "urgh" and "WTF" moments.

On subsequent viewings, yes, it became clear that these films are a bit awful but at the time I was still somewhat interested.

I found TLJ to not be an enjoyable film. I would describe it as quite a cynical movie to be honest. I described the film as being a bit "passive aggressive" towards the fans in the days after I saw it and I still kind of stand by that now.

I get what they were trying to do but I just thought it was a bit out of place for Star Wars and the aftermath of the movie has really opened my eyes to the level of hatred people seem to have for "Star Wars nerds". I get that some people are a bit too passionate about Star Wars but the pure delight that some people have when seeing that the movie seems to have alienated a lot of long-term fans is a bit disappointing.

I'd point to the scene with Leia flying through space as something that's so bizarre I'm not even sure how it managed to not be cut from the film. It's like a mad idea you'd hear in the "making of" documentary or DVD commentary where you'd think "I'm glad they never did that".

Each to their own, I guess. I've seen people defend Batman v Superman, Ghostbusters 2016 and Transformers: Age of Extinction with no shortage of passion and I think those movies were really awful too.

I'd say TLJ is just as bad as the prequels but it's bad in completely different ways.

The extended edition of BvS is a really great film. All the crazy editing is gone and scenes are in proper order and given proper context. Way way more enjoyable than the horror of the theatrical release.

strandroad

david75 wrote: »

We see Luke Skywalker as hero and myth deconstructed here. At least in the first two acts. That’s kind of the point of his story here and seems to have thrown a lot of us. Me included initially. Star Wars hasn’t done this before whereas the big comic book heroes all did it ages ago. I think it’s the perfect way to go with him to set up his sacrifice in the end. It’s the most true to the spirit and law of the Jedi than anything else he possibly could have done.

I completely agree. He is still a hero, just a wiser, self-aware and efficient one. In fact you could complain that his sacrifice tracked Obi-Wan Kenobi's a little too closely and there was nothing wrong with the latter.

A genuine question for those who feel that Luke's character was mistreated in TLJ: what would you like to see instead? What kind of send off would satisfy you?