Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Andrew Beef

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I challenge any Star Wars fan to deny that their pulse raced when:

- Poe took on the Dreadnought

Loved the way the X-Wing braked as Poe turned back but the entire scene had that awful prank phone call moment hanging over it.

- Snoke was killed

His death was rather confusing rather than anything else. So much speculation gone to nothing in a overly telegraphed manor. He came across as a bit of a fool in his final monologue. Although, Snoke was portrayed identically in TFA as the Emperor was portrayed in ESB. In TLJ, portrayed the same as TJR. The Emperor had no backstory either but maybe it didn't bother me because I was 6 at the time.

- Kylo Ren and Rey battled the Imperial Guards

Absolutely loved it. Beautiful scene. I wish it had a lasting effect in the film though. Rey is somehow back on the falcon moments later.

- Yoda showed up

Why why why. Again they are cracking awful jokes. Almost everything with Luke on that island didn't work for me.

- Luke Skywalker walked out to face the First Order army alone

Absolutely loved it. Everything about that red salt planet was brilliant (bar Finn/Rose bs). Didn't really like how Luke died as a result though. Floating into nothing to mirror Yoda's death. I felt nothing for him going.

- The Millenium Falcon battled the Tie Fighters

If its the part I'm thinking of (Rey and Chewie post throne room fight flying through some chasms?), it was probably the only part to give me shivers down my spine. Pure hit of nostalgia. Hook it to my veins. I just wish it made more sense with Rey suddenly appearing. Chewie could have done this alone.

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Loved the way the X-Wing braked as Poe turned back but the entire scene had that awful prank phone call moment hanging over it.



His death was rather confusing rather than anything else. So much speculation gone to nothing in a overly telegraphed manor. He came across as a bit of a fool in his final monologue. Although, Snoke was portrayed identically in TFA as the Emperor was portrayed in ESB. In TLJ, portrayed the same as TJR. The Emperor had no backstory either but maybe it didn't bother me because I was 6 at the time.



Absolutely loved it. Beautiful scene. I wish it had a lasting effect in the film though. Rey is somehow back on the falcon moments later.



Why why why. Again they are cracking awful jokes. Almost everything with Luke on that island didn't work for me.



Absolutely loved it. Everything about that red salt planet was brilliant (bar Finn/Rose bs). Didn't really like how Luke died as a result though. Floating into nothing to mirror Yoda's death. I felt nothing for him going.



If its the part I'm thinking of (Rey and Chewie post throne room fight flying through some chasms?), it was probably the only part to give me shivers down my spine. Pure hit of nostalgia. Hook it to my veins. I just wish it made more sense with Rey suddenly appearing. Chewie could have done this alone.

When she’s getting into the escape pod we see her tell chewie to wait for her signal to come get her. After the duel we see kylo wake up and ask Hux where she’s gone and Hux tells him she’s escaped on Snokes shuttle.
So she’s escaped and rendezvous with chewie and back to Crait

david75

david75 wrote: »

When she’s getting into the escape pod we see her tell chewie to wait for her signal to come get her. After the duel we see kylo wake up and ask Hux where she’s gone and Hux tells him she’s escaped on Snokes shuttle.
So she’s escaped and rendezvous with chewie and back to Crait

I'm aware of that. Seemed too convenient. Why didn't Kylo wake up first? I wanted more consequences from that throne room fight in general. Having Rey back with the rest is not that. Its one of my 25 moments that fell the wrong way.

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm aware of that. Seemed too convenient. Why didn't Kylo wake up first? I wanted more consequences from that throne room fight in general. Having Rey back with the rest is not that. Its one of my 25 moments that fell the wrong way.

I don’t mind that. I did mind her and chewie somehow magically knowing where the first order were in the first place. They drop out of hyperspace, push her out in an escape pod and the falcon jumps out again. That was a bit weird.

Arbitrary

david75 wrote: »

Eeehhhh you’re responding to totally the wrong post I reckon. But we’ve heard you I’m sure. There are people complaining in this thread a few pages back and currently in the Solo thread about women and ‘coloureds’ being the problem with these films and Hollywood and fvck anyone who disagrees.

I made a post in the Han Solo thread complaining about rampant PC BS. Everyone jumps to the conclusion that this has to do with gender and or race to the point that it's insinuated that I'm some sort of ist, though I never stated what it was that specifically annoyed me.

I was so kindly given the benefit of the doubt by one poster whom subsequently deleted their post. :rolleyes:

Both threads are also littered with the belief that this notion is a US fabrication and there is no PC nonsense.

Ok, I'll keep an open mind.

Explain the following to me. What purpose did the scene with a guilty Chewy and his BBQ porg with a cute looking Porg giving him Googly eyes do to further or enhance the story?

What was the purpose of this scene in the context of the overall story?

I have the same question in regards to Rose and Finn freeing those animals on the planet they visit. Forgetting the fact that they leave the children at the hands of their captors, and instead focus on the animals.

To me it looks to be conveying two social statements. Eating meat is bad and they are promoting animal rights.

Neither of which I view as necessarily a bad thing I happen to own a few rescue animals, but I guess this is probably a hairs-breath away from saying I have a black friend :rolleyes:.

What the actual **** has vegansism/vegetarianism and animal rights got to do with Star Wars!? How did implanting these PC social statements further the plot and the overall story line?

Well I guess in one sense Chewy made friends with the porg who then tagged along for the ride and really enhanced the story on the cuteness and lols factor.

If the same messages were there and they somehow enhanced the overall story line, fine, fire away. Put in whatever social agenda you wish to shed light on, but when it's just rammed in to the film for no apparent reason, it just stinks and it detracts from an already poorly conceived story.

There was no subtlety about these conveyed messages and they served no purpose other than to further an agenda handed down by the studio execs.

Maybe I missed something, maybe they did serve some higher purpose in the context of the over all story, I'll admit it went over my head if they did.

Derco

david75 wrote: »

I did mind her and chewie somehow magically knowing where the first order were in the first place. .

When they met in TFA Leia gave Rey some kind of beacon so she would be able to find them. After the Leia Poppins scene you see Finn pick it up. Come to think of it, its probably a reason why they couldn't have killed off Leia's character when the cruiser took that hit.

They could have done it a lot better of course.... along with a lot of other things

david75

I just took it to mean Chewie ate that little porgs mother so he feels guilty and adopts him and now he lives on the Falcon with him.

david75

Derco wrote: »

When they met in TFA Leia gave Rey some kind of beacon so she would be able to find them. After the Leia Poppins scene you see Finn pick it up. Come to think of it, its probably a reason why they couldn't have killed off Leia's character when the cruiser took that hit.

They could have done it a lot better of course.... along with a lot of other things

I’m looking forward to reading the novelisation for this. There’s usually a good bit more detail and scenes given more room to breathe on the page.

Brief_Lives

The best line in that whole movie, was when Finn remarked about the Tie fighters being led away by the Falcon, " They hate that ship".

david75

Brief_Lives wrote: »

The best line in that whole movie, was when Finn remarked about the Tie fighters being led away by the Falcon, " They hate that ship".

Great line it’s the ship that’s been directly involved in giving the empire their two biggest defeats. And the only moment Kylo loses his cool in that sequence. ‘Blow that piece of junk out of the sky!’
Here’s his das ship here to screw up his plans. That’s gotta sting

pixelburp

Arbitrary wrote: »

I made a post in the Han Solo thread complaining about rampant PC BS. Everyone jumps to the conclusion that this has to do with gender and or race to the point that it's insinuated that I'm some sort of ist, though I never stated what it was that specifically annoyed me.

[...]
To me it looks to be conveying two social statements. Eating meat is bad and they are promoting animal rights.

[...]
What the actual **** has vegansism/vegetarianism and animal rights got to do with Star Wars!? How did implanting these PC social statements further the plot and the overall story line?

Well I guess in one sense Chewy made friends with the porg who then tagged along for the ride and really enhanced the story on the cuteness and lols factor.

I think we've been jumping to that conclusion about your comments because TBH - and maybe I'm a bit behind the social times here - I've never seen Political Correctness equate to ones food choices, or involve a vegan, vegetarian outlook. As far as I'm concerned the epithet of PC still broadly refers to issues surrounding gender, religion or race; I'm not aware of that distinction having broadened. Veganism isn't THAT socially fashionable at the moment - quite the opposite really going by my own observations, its practitioners routinely teased - and the sales of bacon are certainly still going strong As you didn't expand on what you meant 'PC BS' it's understandable IMO people didn't associate it with a meaning that doesn't exist

Also, I've not read any insinuations that Last Jedi was actively promoting some form of animal rights point of view either - I think you might be the first to bring it up Both instances mentioned are hardly radical, jarring points in the narrative either IMO.

The scene with Chewie was just a bit of humour by discomfort, 'cos who wouldn't suddenly feel a wave of guilt if your dinner looked that cute, and its relation/sibling/mother was staring aghast at you? As for the scenes on Canto Bight, that interlude seemed predominantly focused on the thread of slavery in the Galaxy than any 'Save the Atreyu Knockoffs' narrative; it linked directly with Rose's own past too and I think its main purpose was to bring the Rebellion / First Order fight down to street level - arguably it's the first time we've seen any kind of class structure outside of the Tatoinne scenes in Phantom Menace.

johnny_ultimate

Arbitrary wrote: »

What was the purpose of this scene in the context of the overall story?

I linked to this article earlier in the thread, which I think helps explain how scenes such as that fit into the film’s broader goals.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-star-wars-the-last-jedi-porgs-caretakers-fathier-milk-20171228-htmlstory.html

The treatment of creatures in the film in general is very considered, and ties into the film’s overall representation and interpretation of the force. Humans and the various creatures in the film exist in a sort of mutually beneficial balance, that same balance Luke alludes to in his explanation of the force. Porgs aren’t necessarily the best example of this IMO (although the quick shot of mother/child in the force montage is very effective), but ultimately the sort of ‘pet’ relationship that wayward one has with Chewy does help feed into the sense that creatures in this film aren’t there to be merely exploited.

Two additional points:

Films aren’t mere plot delivery devices. It’s often important to embrace the interesting colour and tangents that arise in the world.

A filmmaker wanting to say something isn’t just some ‘agenda’ to be criticised. Hayao Miyazaki often embraces environmental themes in his work to the point where it has become an essential part of his directorial style & signature, and Johnson has even noted the great Ghibli animator when talking about this film’s approach. You don’t have to agree with a filmmaker’s stance - I personally find the overt conservatism of Michael Bay films, even Transformers, distasteful - but they absolutely have a right to say it as it’s their film, not the audiences’, at the end of the day

Derco

david75 wrote: »

I’m looking forward to reading the novelisation for this. There’s usually a good bit more detail and scenes given more room to breathe on the page.

I didn't read the TFA book. Did it add any flesh to the bones of the movie?

BTW I have been lurking on this thread for the last few weeks so I may as well give my two cents worth on TLJ. I have seen it twice and enjoyed it slightly better the second viewing - after being very underwhelmed the first time. My main gripe really is that it doesn't leave me eagerly awaiting Episode IX as all that is left are characters I couldn't give a toss about.

david75

Derco wrote: »

I didn't read the TFA book. Did it add any flesh to the bones of the movie?

BTW I have been lurking on this thread for the last few weeks so I may as well give my two cents worth on TLJ. I have seen it twice and enjoyed it slightly better the second viewing - after being very underwhelmed the first time. My main gripe really is that it doesn't leave me eagerly awaiting Episode IX as all that is left are characters I couldn't give a toss about.

Only have TFA to go by but scenes were extended and some fe bits of extra dialogue here and there. Including Snoke in Reys head telling her to kill kylo when they’re duelling. Well, she hears a voice telling her to kill him as she stands over him. Probably safe to say now that it was Snoke. Stuff like that.

Arbitrary

pixelburp wrote: »

I think we've been jumping to that conclusion about your comments because TBH - and maybe I'm a bit behind the social times here - I've never seen Political Correctness equate to ones food choices, or involve a vegan, vegetarian outlook. As far as I'm concerned the epithet of PC still broadly refers to issues surrounding gender, religion or race; I'm not aware of that distinction having broadened. Veganism isn't THAT socially fashionable at the moment - quite the opposite really going by my own observations, its practitioners routinely teased - and the sales of bacon are certainly still going strong As you didn't expand on what you meant 'PC BS' it's understandable IMO people didn't associate it with a meaning that doesn't exist?

Also, I've not read any insinuations that Last Jedi was actively promoting some form of animal rights point of view either - I think you might be the first to bring it up Both instances mentioned are hardly radical, jarring points in the narrative either IMO.

The scene with Chewie was just a bit of humour by discomfort, 'cos who wouldn't suddenly feel a wave of guilt if your dinner looked that cute, and its relation/sibling/mother was staring aghast at you? As for the scenes on Canto Bight, that interlude seemed predominantly focused on the thread of slavery in the Galaxy than any 'Save the Atreyu Knockoffs' narrative; it linked directly with Rose's own past too and I think its main purpose was to bring the Rebellion / First Order fight down to street level - arguably it's the first time we've seen any kind of class structure outside of the Tatoinne scenes in Phantom Menace.

I agree it is humour by discomfort, that also happens to convey a specific message. This is not by chance or coincidence, it's by design imho. This has been Disney's MO for many many years.

Perhaps they don't belong under the same umbrella, but they're a branch of the same tree. I disagree on your point about veganism, it's gaining huge momentum. At least I know what to expect going in to a film like Babe. I don't want these messages conveyed in Star Wars, maybe I am reading in to it too much. I felt it lacked balance in conveying messages on a host of social issues.

My same point applies to character diversity, by all means give us diversity, but don't just shove it in for the sake of it because then it feels more like forced inclusion rather than natural and seamless diversification.

If you write a character to tick off a demographics box, it will inevitably affect the quality of the overall story.

Flesh the characters out, give them meaningful story lines that makes the audience care about them. I had high hopes for Finn's character after TFA, we were teased that he too may be one with the Force and it's a shame this wasn't explored further.

I just didn't care about Finn and Rose in the slightest come the end of TLJ and honeslty it felt to me that they were token inclusions. That's my opinion, which I'm entitled to hold and if you want to label me a racist, despite the fact that I've put forward a reasonable logic behind my reasoning, that's your prerogative but it doesn't reflect me accurately. It's a lazy rebuttal imho.

@Johnny_Ultimate

Great article and I agree. But when the agenda is so painfully unbalanced and only offers one narrative and it's a narrative that doesn't quite gel naturally with the Star Wars Universe, it stands out and draws criticism.

I can't recall any animal or creature that posed a threat to anyone throughout the duration of the film, they were all either cute, harmless and over all friendly towards humans, really?

When I think back on the original trilogy and all the dangerous creatures they encountered, this doesn't gel with the Star Wars Universe I know.

pixelburp

Arbitrary wrote: »

I agree it is humour by discomfort, that also happens to convey a specific message. This is not by chance or coincidence, it's by design imho. This has been Disney's MO for many many years.

Perhaps they don't belong under the same umbrella, but they're a branch of the same tree. I disagree on your point about veganism, it's gaining huge momentum. At least I know what to expect going in to a film like Babe. I don't want these messages conveyed in Star Wars, maybe I am reading in to it too much. I felt it lacked balance in conveying messages on a host of social issues.

Honestly, I think you kinda are here; I don't think there was anything aggressively vegan in the film, beyond the surface level moments of some cringe-humour & a general 'free the slaves' narrative on Canto Bight - both of which have been done to death a thousand times before. If you think Star Wars is chock full of Food Agendas, I suggest you don't watch 'Okja'

Yes, veganism is gaining popularity, but by no means is there a social or political movement to avoid insulting or offending Vegans from ... well, what exactly? Banning explicit meat photography in adverts, hiding the dairy counter behind a veil? If political correctness has a conventional meaning, and applied here to veganism, then restaurants, cafés, supermarkets, would be under constant scrutiny and attack for their insensitive BLT offence. Politcal correctness simply doesn't apply to veganism.

Arbitrary wrote: »

My same point applies to character diversity, by all means give us diversity, but don't just shove it in for the sake of it because then it feels more like forced inclusion rather than natural and seamless diversification.

If you write a character to tick off a demographics box, it will inevitably affect the quality of the overall story.

Ultimately, what's the difference here though? Just taking Finn & Rose specifically, as both actors came under very specific and targeted attack for their mere presence in Star Wars by outlying groups; yet at no point, literally no moment in either movie, does their ethnicity either matter or come up as a plot point.

Divorcing the discussion from all the think-pieces, articles etc. about the diversity of the Star Wars cast, and sticking to what's on-screen. Where exactly are Finn and Rose's races shoved in "for the sake of it"? Sure, it's entirely likely their casting was intentional (rarely is anything done by accident at Disney), but it never affects the the quality of the story by your own metric. I'm not even sure how a space opera script is meant to have 'seamless' diversity anyway, it's all fiction, it's all inherently contrived in the first place.

The problems revolving Finn have nothing to do with his race, and everything to do with him being a character whose unexpected popularity in Force Awakens likely necessitated the script keeping him around - even though he ultimately came off a little pointless. I was happy to see him back, he was a fun, charismatic character who earned his place in the sequel - so if anything, his inclusion WAS seamless, again by your own metrics Hell the same could be said for Poe, who IIRC wasn't even meant to be Episode VII that much to begin with, though definitely fared a little better when the script was written for Last Jedi.

Gbear

To be clear, I didn't argue that the film deconstructed the nature of heroism.
The post I was replying to and perhaps some other articles made that claim.
Rather, I think it takes a look at heroism within the context of these characters and this film. I don't think it's casting aspersions at anyone else, nor is it any sort of post-modernist undermining of the nature of heroism.

I don't think it is a radically different take in most respects to other Star Wars films or more general heroic tropes, except perhaps the flaws that Luke highlights in the Jedi Order pre-Empire.

Saruhashi wrote: »

I'm gonna say that this kind of demonstrates how much of a mess the film really is. If it's trying to explore these points.

The start of the movie establishes that the First Order dreadnought ship can and will destroy the entire resistance fleet. So Poe has a plan to destroy the dreadnought before that can happen.

Leia decides "no" and orders Poe back but she allows the bombers to continue? Why doesn't she order the bombers to stop? Who's in charge here?

So they do destroy the dreadnought but at significant cost of life. Then they jump to hyperspace.

Poe's in charge of the squadron and he reports to Leia. I don't know the intricacies of disobeying orders in combat situations but nothing in the scene bothered me.

It's pretty clear what the outcome is in cost and what the consequences are for Poe when he gets a shlap and a demotion.

Saruhashi wrote: »

At this point they realize they have been tracked through hyperspace and can't jump again because if they are tracked again they will have no fuel. This completely vindicates Poe as now they are being pursued by the First Order sans previously mentioned fleet destroying dreadnought.

Without the dreadnought the First Order have to chase them through space. Close enough to threaten their ships but not quite close enough to actually destroy them.

You can't be vindicated by hindsight.
The tracking the First order was doing was thought to be impossible.

If they knew what was going to happen then I'm sure they would've adopted radically different tactics from the outset.

Saruhashi wrote: »

Rose's line about saving what you love instead of destroying what you hate is all fine... unless the thing you hate is actively and persistently trying to destroy what you love.

IF the movie is trying to make a point then it also contradicting that same point without properly exploring that contradiction.

When Rose "saves" Finn, she doesn't know that Luke will show up and also really nothing could have stopped the First Order's army from just killing both herself and Finn as they lay on the battlefield.

Anyway, it's Luke who sacrifices himself to save the resistance anyway, in the same way that Finn intended.

I didn't really like that example with Rose, not least because crashing into Finn is only marginally less dangerous than suiciding into a big laser and also puts her own life at risk.

However, I get what they were going for, I think.

More broadly I don't think they're going for "turning the other cheek" approach to conflict but more one that places a high value on each and every one of their lives.
The strength of the rebellion is in hope and brotherhood, vs the endless meat grinders of the Empire/First Order that can only persist through fear.

Also, her decision to risk her life to save Finn's doesn't necessarily mean he shouldn't have done what he did. They're mutually exclusive but that doesn't mean they both can't be right.

Saruhashi wrote: »

That's one of the odd ways that this movie is praised. It's claimed that the film "deconstructs" heroism or the Jedi or The Force when actually it really doesn't.

At the end of the day the bad guys are still genocidal maniacs, the good guys sacrifice themselves to save the day and Rey who is unnaturally "strong with the force" is the newest in a long line of Jedi.

Every point the film makes is almost immediately contradicted to bring us back to the status quo from the previous 7 "episodes".

Luke: "It's time for the Jedi to end"
Some time later...
Luke: "I will not be the last Jedi"
*camera cuts to Rey lifting rocks with The Force*

We'll be right back with the usual good vs evil and heroism tropes that TLJ supposedly "deconstructed" in the next installment.

Even to say it "subverted expectations" is a little untrue to be honest. Sure they killed Snoke, implied that Rey is a "nobody" and went in a strange direction with Luke but those are actually quite superficial aspects. It's still pretty much the evil First Order vs the good Rebels with no heel or face turns and no real blurring of the lines between good and evil either.

Turn Rey full Darkside or have Finn rejoin the First Order or maybe even question if General Leia is actually a warmonger throwing thousands of soldiers and pilots into the machine to be chewed up and spat out all because of a personal vendetta with Snoke.

Maybe then I would say "holy crap" but the Episode 8 that we got? Was it really such a masterful "deconstrution" of Star wars and did it really "subvert expectations" in the way that the critics have praised?

I'm not arsed about doing a total upheaval of the Star Wars universe one way or the other. In this case I think we got a bit of a refresh in these tropes but I'd agree that they haven't completely changed direction.

Insofar as the film contradicts itself, that's not by accident.
Luke is in a hole when he's talking about the end of the Jedi, but I think by the end that he comes to expand his concept of growth and passing on what you have learned not only to himself and Rey but the old concept of the Jedi to whatever Rey can make of it.

Her path is distinguished from Kylo Ren's in that respect, I think - he wants to bury the past completely while, by the end of it, she has the texts, she's learned something of the Force from Skywalker, but she's also learned of the failures of the Jedi previously so she can hopefully take what was good and make it better, while perhaps Kylo Ren will be stuck making the same old mistakes.

I don't think the film really subverted much but what it did do was avoid pandering to a desire for schlocky lightsaber fights or Luke being some sort of indestructable badass who actually can solo a First Order army and not just trick them into believing that he did.

I don't care what critics say on the matter really; perhaps there's a need by some of them to read too much into things to peddle an agenda. I just liked the bog-standard movie-related stuff - technical and artistic - and I'm happy not to delve into any meta-commentary or attempts to draw parallels to other media or the real world.

pauldla

Riddle101 wrote: »

Watched the Last Jedi today and thought it was a bit underwhelming. I mean there were some good parts but it felt like a rehash of Empire Strikes Back in the same way that The Force Awakens felt like a rehash of A New Hope. They just seemed to be reminiscent of the older movies.

I thought Snoke and Captain Phasma were completely wasted in this movie. I mean is Captain Phasma supposed to be a running gag? She turned up late in the movie, and her death was pretty lame. Perhaps if Phasma had a bigger role in the movie like maybe if she had been ordered to capture Finn and Rose when they went on their mission to disable the tracking device it would have meant something, but her presence didn't feel all that important. Also Snoke getting killed like that was silly. Of all the villains in Star Wars, Snoke has to be the worst. All that mystery about him in The Force Awakens and he turns out to be nothing in the end, just gets killed off in a very anti climatic way.

I enjoyed Luke Skywalker's scenes the most, but what was up with the ending? He just dies and vanishes or something? After everything they went through in TFA to find Luke, and all the talk about Luke helping the Resistance he goes out like that. I think most were expecting something more. I guess he did save the Resistance but whatever, I guess he's going to be a force ghost or something in the next movie.

Anyway, I think I need more time to reflect on the movie and maybe watch it again some day, but it just didn't settle well with me.

I’d have to agree, I just saw it as well. Underwhelming overall. The Laura Derne character was a bit pointless. How much better would it have been if a certain General Calrissian had been the one to sacrifice himself so others could escape.

The Mary Poppins scene. That was a nuke the fridge moment.

Derco

david75 wrote: »

Only have TFA to go by but scenes were extended and some fe bits of extra dialogue here and there. Including Snoke in Reys head telling her to kill kylo when they’re duelling. Well, she hears a voice telling her to kill him as she stands over him. Probably safe to say now that it was Snoke. Stuff like that.

Star Wars has always been a movie experience for me personally. I never got into the Expanded Universe books when they were out.

I started reading the 'Journey to the Force Awakens' books but stopped halfway through the second one. I should give them another try because one thing the new films have epically failed at is with the new characters, Finn in particular. So much potential there but they blew it.

david75

Derco wrote: »

Star Wars has always been a movie experience for me personally. I never got into the Expanded Universe books when they were out.

I started reading the 'Journey to the Force Awakens' books but stopped halfway through the second one. I should give them another try because one thing the new films have epically failed at is with the new characters, Finn in particular. So much potential there but they blew it.

Bloodline, lost stars, Princess Leia of alderaan, Tarkin, lords of the sith, perfect weapon, dark disciple. All these are new canon and really great reads.
Avoid the aftermath trilogy and Thrawn. Unless you really like Thrawn. It doesn’t go anywhere despite being the first in a new trilogy.

conorhal

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I linked to this article earlier in the thread, which I think helps explain how scenes such as that fit into the film’s broader goals.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-star-wars-the-last-jedi-porgs-caretakers-fathier-milk-20171228-htmlstory.html

The treatment of creatures in the film in general is very considered, and ties into the film’s overall representation and interpretation of the force. Humans and the various creatures in the film exist in a sort of mutually beneficial balance, that same balance Luke alludes to in his explanation of the force. Porgs aren’t necessarily the best example of this IMO (although the quick shot of mother/child in the force montage is very effective), but ultimately the sort of ‘pet’ relationship that wayward one has with Chewy does help feed into the sense that creatures in this film aren’t there to be merely exploited.

Two additional points:

Films aren’t mere plot delivery devices. It’s often important to embrace the interesting colour and tangents that arise in the world.

A filmmaker wanting to say something isn’t just some ‘agenda’ to be criticised. Hayao Miyazaki often embraces environmental themes in his work to the point where it has become an essential part of his directorial style & signature, and Johnson has even noted the great Ghibli animator when talking about this film’s approach. You don’t have to agree with a filmmaker’s stance - I personally find the overt conservatism of Michael Bay films, even Transformers, distasteful - but they absolutely have a right to say it as it’s their film, not the audiences’, at the end of the day

There's a pretty jarring dissonance for me when Rose turns to Finn as the cute horse thingymajig (and a VERY Miyazaki looking creature, in a film that is an insult to compare his works to IMO) ambles away into the moonlight, free, and she tearfully proclaims 'that's the real victory'.....
Yeah, the real victory was freeing the horses, but screw the slave children riding them amirite?

I laughed my ass off at that. It managed to be stupid, maudlin, cheaply sentimental, and so very wrong all at the same time. Sadly a description that defines her character.

The only scene that made me roll my eye's harder was that last shot of the slave moppet playing with his rebel ring before force grabbing a broom and staring up at the sky. Jesus, that was such a painfully 'Disney' moment that I honestly thought 'when you wish upon a star (wars)' was about to play as the credits rolled.

Derco

david75 wrote: »

Bloodline, lost stars, Princess Leia of alderaan, Tarkin, lords of the sith, perfect weapon, dark disciple. All these are new canon and really great reads.
Avoid the aftermath trilogy and Thrawn. Unless you really like Thrawn. It doesn’t go anywhere despite being the first in a new trilogy.

Regarding the Aftermath trilogy, it chronicled a character called Temmin 'Snap' Wexley, an X-Wing pilot who was in TFA (This guy). IIRC he survived the attack on Starkiller base but was nowhere to be seen in TLJ. Another example of this film being a case of a chain letter gone wrong??

radonicus

Saruhashi wrote: »

I suppose from a technical point of view you could say that TLJ is far superior but then I think TPM was a bit of a technical wonder in it's time?

Obviously it's going back a good few years and the old memory might be a bit hazy but I felt like TPM and AotC were at least enjoyable experiences with a good few "urgh" and "WTF" moments.

On subsequent viewings, yes, it became clear that these films are a bit awful but at the time I was still somewhat interested.

I found TLJ to not be an enjoyable film. I would describe it as quite a cynical movie to be honest. I described the film as being a bit "passive aggressive" towards the fans in the days after I saw it and I still kind of stand by that now.

I get what they were trying to do but I just thought it was a bit out of place for Star Wars and the aftermath of the movie has really opened my eyes to the level of hatred people seem to have for "Star Wars nerds". I get that some people are a bit too passionate about Star Wars but the pure delight that some people have when seeing that the movie seems to have alienated a lot of long-term fans is a bit disappointing.

I'd point to the scene with Leia flying through space as something that's so bizarre I'm not even sure how it managed to not be cut from the film. It's like a mad idea you'd hear in the "making of" documentary or DVD commentary where you'd think "I'm glad they never did that".

Each to their own, I guess. I've seen people defend Batman v Superman, Ghostbusters 2016 and Transformers: Age of Extinction with no shortage of passion and I think those movies were really awful too.

I'd say TLJ is just as bad as the prequels but it's bad in completely different ways.

Interesting description, they certainly went at fan expectations with vigour.

david75

Derco wrote: »

Regarding the Aftermath trilogy, it chronicled a character called Temmin 'Snap' Wexley, an X-Wing pilot who was in TFA (This guy). IIRC he survived the attack on Starkiller base but was nowhere to be seen in TLJ. Another example of this film being a case of a chain letter gone wrong??

It’s been confirmed he’s there we just don’t see him. He currently has a runnning storyline in the Poe comics which are running up to TFA. Personally I’d be happy had he died as I hate the actor but that’s another story.

Derco

david75 wrote: »

It’s been confirmed he’s there we just don’t see him.

Which is the strange thing. He is basically Poe's wing man so surely when Poe is coming up with his mutiny plans, Snap would be the first person he would confide in? Maybe Rian Johnson has a similar opinion of the actor as you . It will be interesting to see if he shows up in Episode IX all the same

conorhal

david75 wrote: »

It’s been confirmed he’s there we just don’t see him. He currently has a runnning storyline in the Poe comics which are running up to TFA. Personally I’d be happy had he died as I hate the actor but that’s another story.

There in lies one of my major problems with the new films. All the story seems to exist in ancillary material. I actually read Catalyst: A rogue One novel, and thought, if ANY of this backstory was included in Rogue one in anything other than a superficial way then I might have given the tiniest $h1t about Jyn Erso or her father.
If you can't tell the story in your movie and rely on novels and comics to back-fill poor characterization, weak plots or plot-holes, then you're a bad screenwriter. The ancillary material can enrich a story, but it should NEVER be relied upon to tell it.

irishman86

david75 wrote: »

Eeehhhh you’re responding to totally the wrong post I reckon. But we’ve heard you I’m sure. There are people complaining in this thread a few pages back and currently in the Solo thread about women and ‘coloureds’ being the problem with these films and Hollywood and fvck anyone who disagrees.

No interest in arguing that with you or anyone. Youve clearly been looking for that since you joined us and personally I find it a bit sad that posters like yourself are so threatened by someone simply not falling into line with how you demand we think. There’s nothin wrong with criticism. Back it up as it regards to the film though and without blaming women or different ethnicities.

You love wheeling that out buddy, when you have argued with everyone who said its a meh film
And constantly bring out the sexist racist drivel, wtf is that about Rey is a **** actor it has nothing to do with her sex

TerrorFirmer

I ended up going to the cinema again today to watch The Last Jedi. Ironically the only other film I've ever seen twice in the cinema is The Phantom Menance, though even at that there was ten whole years between those two showings...and yes, even that was better on a second viewing (though partly I suspect it's because Attack of the Clones ended up being what it was, which made me appreciate it's few strengths in a new light).

As for TLJ....I enjoyed it a lot more on the second viewing. I'm not one of those people who outright disliked it first time around either, but what I had considered significant problems suddenly became far less critical and in many cases, even non-issues entirely when I watched it this evening. And, conversely, the best bits of the film stood out even more - not to mention I noticed an absolute mountain of subtle and not-so-subtle stuff I missed entirely first time around.

I've already poured my thoughts into this thread previously so I'm not going to rehash all that stuff about what was right, wrong, off or mishandled. But I do personally feel much better about the whole thing now, to be honest. It's not a perfect movie by any means and does have some problems but it's a great experience all the same.

david75

irishman86 wrote: »

You love wheeling that out buddy, when you have argued with everyone who said its a meh film
And constantly bring out the sexist racist drivel, wtf is that about Rey is a **** actor it has nothing to do with her sex

You’re so very entertaining

irishman86

david75 wrote: »

You’re so very entertaining

And you are well..........clueless about movies in general since you constantly post the same drivel as a defence
-Say everyones looking for a argument
-Call anyone who thinks the movie is bad clueless
-Call anyone who thinks the actors are bad racist and sexist
-Rinse and repeat for the next person who comments they didnt like movie
Thats what you have done on repeat buddy