Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

pixelburp

Hector Savage wrote: »

Maybe I should have put "official"

Still, It does raise an interesting point about audience v critics opinions ?

The media will have you believe that the prequels were a complete disaster and these new films are just far superior (maybe true for TFA, but not TLJ), but you can't just dismiss the prequels - especially III.

Numbers and stats mean nothing without the context behind them though: does the 0.1 tell us anything about the mood of fandom; critics; the context in which each film was born; the films preceding it; audience goodwill; the math actually used in coming to those scores (IIRC RottenTomatoes considers 3/5 as 'fresh'); hell, the climate of blockbuster cinema at that time?

To put it another way: typical political opinion polls have a Margin of Error of about 2 - 4%, yet here we're what, declaring a source of truth on a difference of 0.1% over something as inherently subjective & intangible as a film? If statistics could really rationalise things that much, there wouldn't be 5000 posts on this thread

Nettle Soup

beauf wrote: »

III had far more plot tie ups though. Thats probably why people like it.

They were both shít. TLJ had a lot more promise though. Pity the messed it up so badly.

beauf

Nettle Soup wrote: »

They were both shít. TLJ had a lot more promise though. Pity the messed it up so badly.

I'm conflicted about the TL. There were bits I liked, bits I hated. I liked some of the humor, some of it I didn't. That didn't bother me as much as the story line. I think my biggest problem is the story line. Its very unbalanced, and I just didn't like what they did with some characters.

The whole Balance thing I get, but was very clumsy. Reminds me of Harry Potter. I didn't like it there either. if any one has seen unbreakable (though not a kids movie) it did the whole Balance thing vastly better.

Another peeve of mine is they seem to be unable to design cool vehicles in the new star Wars moves (since the original Trilogy). Rogue was better in that regard.

Derco

beauf wrote: »

III had far more plot tie ups though. Thats probably why people like it.

....and less Jar Jar Binks

This Fat Girl Runs

I've been following this thread for a couple hundred pages and thought I'd finally post.

I've seen TLJ twice now and I'm of two minds about it. I really enjoyed some of the story, particularly the conversations between Kylo and Rey. The way the movie is filmed is gorgeous, I wish I could paint some of the scenes that stuck in my mind like Luke standing on Crait, leaving no footprints, facing the AT ATs with Kylo's shuttle hovering over. I saw lots of beautifully shot scenes throughout the film. I suppose that was the best part for me.

As for the story and the characters; they just didn't pull me in and make me really care about what happens to them. A lot of the relationships and conversations just seem so contrived that I find them hard to buy into. I guess the best way to describe what I'm feeling is to say this film doesn't lend itself to a suspension of disbelief.

On my second viewing, I did see more details and little subtle things that I missed the first time, so I was glad I went. I still yawned through the Canto Bright scene though. And I really didn't buy the Rose in love with Finn angle.

I do feel a bit miffed that in order to know the whole story I'd have to read books and comics. I didn't know that until I started following this thread. I think I feel that if a filmmaker can't tell the whole story within the confines of the film, then maybe they shouldn't make it. The cynical part of me feels that of course it makes them more money to spread the story over different media. If going out and getting extra stuff would make me enjoy the movie more; I would feel manipulated or used somehow. I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking this.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the next movie, if only to find out what happens to Kylo Ren and which way he'll go. He's the one character whose story I'm interested in, he's the only one who is really flawed. Everyone else is too perfect.

One last question: I don't buy Finn being a janitor before becoming a stormtrooper. Don't they have droids to mop the floors?

beauf

I agree with all you say.

This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »

...One last question: I don't buy Finn being a janitor before becoming a stormtrooper. Don't they have droids to mop the floors?

In one of the animated series there's a retired Clone as a Janitor. That makes sense. But being a janitor before being a Tropper, its just an implausible story line.

nix

beauf wrote: »

I agree with all you say.



In one of the animated series there's a retired Clone as a Janitor. That makes sense. But being a janitor before being a Tropper, its just an implausible story line.

Well to be fair, when you join the army, you get given upkeep jobs when in the barracks, cooking, cleaning etc. Him not being the best example of what a storm trooper needs to be soldier wise, its not hard to believe he would be given the **** jobs. It's also a good way to condition discipline.

This Fat Girl Runs

nix wrote: »

Well to be fair, when you join the army, you get given upkeep jobs when in the barracks, cooking, cleaning etc. Him not being the best example of what a storm trooper needs to be soldier wise, its not hard to believe he would be given the **** jobs. It's also a good way to condition discipline.

That makes sense for an earth army, but is that really how stormtroopers are trained? I don't think I've ever seen any imperial, or first order ships with random janitors, cooks, cleaners etc running around. Even the laundry seems to be done by droids. :P

That reminds me, I also feel like Finn is just a little too old for being a first time stormtrooper. If I were running the program, I'd get recruits into the armour as soon as possible. Like 18/20 year olds.

david75

This Fat Girl Runs wrote: »

That makes sense for an earth army, but is that really how stormtroopers are trained? I don't think I've ever seen any imperial, or first order ships with random janitors, cooks, cleaners etc running around. Even the laundry seems to be done by droids. :P

That reminds me, I also feel like Finn is just a little too old for being a first time stormtrooper. If I were running the program, I'd get recruits into the armour as soon as possible. Like 18/20 year olds.

The troopers are taken in early childhood to be trained.
You can see Finns baby picture in TFA in a digital / holo display as they discuss him deserting. Phasma I think says he was sent for reconditioning and showed no signs of dissent.

Tony EH

beauf wrote: »

I agree with all you say.

In one of the animated series there's a retired Clone as a Janitor. That makes sense. But being a janitor before being a Tropper, its just an implausible story line.

For 20+ years?

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Remember these stormtroopers are stolen from their familes at birth. :rolleyes:



He chickens out on his first mission. His FIRST mission. Are we supposed to believe that he was just mopping floors before then?

Terrible character, terribly written and now they don't know what to do with him, so they send him on distracting and useless sidequests and have to invent equally terrible characters so he has someone to talk to.

Awful stuff.

Tony EH

nix wrote: »

Well to be fair, when you join the army, you get given upkeep jobs when in the barracks, cooking, cleaning etc. Him not being the best example of what a storm trooper needs to be soldier wise, its not hard to believe he would be given the **** jobs. It's also a good way to condition discipline.

That might work if he was a recruit. If he joined up, like in a regular army. But this army is made up of stolen kids (something so dumb, it's astonishing). So Finn has been, essentially, arsing around for most of his life, despite being in a miltary organisation.

I'd join that army in a second.

The real reason, of course, why Finn's first mission was Jakku and why he was mopping floors before that is because Disney were afraid to actually make him a real soldier who'd done some shitty things (thus facilitating his defection), believing that simple minded audiences wouldn't be able to warm to him. So they made him an Uncle Tom Foolery trope instead.

Ha ha ha...look what the funny man did..hahahah. :rolleyes:

He's just impossible to believe and, frankly, Disney missed a brilliant opportunity to create a truly classic Star Wars character.

I think that one of the biggest issues with the humour in the film is that most of it is the kind of fare that you would find in the average Adam Sandler film. The entire opening scene is the kind of unfunny exchange that if it was delivered by Sandler and Rob Schneider would be called cheap and lazy. That it's Star Wars means a lot of people are far more forgiving of it but still, at the end of the day the comedy in the film is very kid friendly and there's nothing wrong with that, just doesn't make it good or funny.

This Fat Girl Runs

I feel like Finn would have been much more believable had he been Hux or Kylo's bodygaurd. It would explain his detailed knowledge of Star Killer base, and star destroyers; and it would explain how Kylo knew his designation number when he noticed him on Jakku. It would have given his story a lot more intensity, because his defection from the first order would have been much more personal to Phasma, Kylo and Hux. And, with the things he would have seen and done, as Tony EH says above, it would have been a brilliant story.

I feel that the 'sanitation' line was supposed to be a joke and if it was, then it was a really poor one that locked the writers into a making Finn a shallow, uninteresting character. They sold him out for a joke. What a pity!

OneOfThem Stumbled

The Last Jedi is just a B-movie sci-fi with Star Wars label attached. If it weren't for the massive budget and strange earnest at times, it could be seen as a Space Balls take on Star Wars (between the weird gags, and plot points that are clearly just trolling the audience).

None of the plot made much sense, but it doesn't have to in comedy. Shame that the jokes weren't all that funny. I think the funniest joke was

Rose kamakaziing into Finn

. That was meant to be a gag, wasn't it?

I know that I should really wrap the following in spoiler tags, but the most important plot point was that that one horse creature got away from the casino.

The Fifth Element! That's what TLJ was like.

Derco

Tony EH wrote: »

He's just impossible to believe and, frankly, Disney missed a brilliant opportunity to create a truly classic Star Wars character.

TBH when I saw one of the trailers with him being taken prisoner by the 1st Order, I thought his story in TLJ would involve him being reconditioned and then sent back to the Resistance to infiltrate them. That would have been an interesting thread to carry into episode 9. As an actor, Boyega could play it. He was very good in that film Detroit I thought

nix

Tony EH wrote: »

That might work if he was a recruit. If he joined up, like in a regular army. But this army is made up of stolen kids (something so dumb, it's astonishing). So Finn has been, essentially, arsing around for most of his life, despite being in a miltary organisation.

I'd join that army in a second.

The real reason, of course, why Finn's first mission was Jakku and why he was mopping floors before that is because Disney were afraid to actually make him a real soldier who'd done some shitty things (thus facilitating his defection), believing that simple minded audiences wouldn't be able to warm to him. So they made him an Uncle Tom Foolery trope instead.

Ha ha ha...look what the funny man did..hahahah. :rolleyes:

He's just impossible to believe and, frankly, Disney missed a brilliant opportunity to create a truly classic Star Wars character.

Well yeah, he could have been that bad they may have had him scrubbing decks for years, maybe some of them are racist? them being evil ****s, its not that hard of a stretch. Plus their bases are massive so they would literally need thousands of people to keep on top of the upkeep.

Frankly i don't care, its too much of a nit pick to waste time on and to me, isnt on the forefront of actual issues with the new movies that i have, so i dont dwell on it. The above is what came to me upon me thinking about it this morning, i hadn't given it a second beforehand.

TerrorFirmer

beauf wrote: »

III had far more plot tie ups though. Thats probably why people like it.

In fairness, it's also hugely entertaining. Despite the school play dialogue, clunky plot and awful performances it has tonnes of hugely entertaining battles, on land and in space, and featuring loads of Jedi....and George Lucas always deserves credit for that strong visual world building he always did well.

I think TLJ is a vastly superior film, but I can see how people could argue that ROTS is better/more entertaining depending on the metrics being used. Especially younger audiences and casual viewers.

Tony EH

Derco wrote: »

TBH when I saw one of the trailers with him being taken prisoner by the 1st Order, I thought his story in TLJ would involve him being reconditioned and then sent back to the Resistance to infiltrate them. That would have been an interesting thread to carry into episode 9. As an actor, Boyega could play it. He was very good in that film Detroit I thought

Well, it certainly would have been better than the Canto Bight nonsense that we got.

Rose "We let the space horses go. It was worth it, cuz slavery'n'all..."

Finn "But, what about the kids?"

Rose "Yeh, fuck them."

Tony EH

nix wrote: »

Well yeah, he could have been that bad they may have had him scrubbing decks for years, maybe some of them are racist? them being evil ****s, its not that hard of a stretch. Plus their bases are massive so they would literally need thousands of people to keep on top of the upkeep.

Frankly i don't care, its too much of a nit pick to waste time on and to me, isnt on the forefront of actual issues with the new movies that i have, so i dont dwell on it. The above is what came to me upon me thinking about it this morning, i hadn't given it a second beforehand.

When an entire character is shit, it's not a "nit pick".

nix

Tony EH wrote: »

When an entire character is shit, it's not a "nit pick".

He's shit because you dont know his entire backstory in great detail prior to TFA?

I myself enjoyed Finn in TFA, he was wasted and down played in TLJ. Though thats to do with poor story writing, not his character itself.. Finn breaking Poe out of captivity in the early parts of TFA was great, i was kinda hoping to see their bromance grow more in TLJ and them develop his character more.. but nope

But to call him a shit character just because one his old duties was sanitation, on the grand scheme of major **** ups in TLJ, yeah, its a nit pick.

nix

Tony EH wrote: »

The real reason, of course, why Finn's first mission was Jakku and why he was mopping floors before that is because Disney were afraid to actually make him a real soldier who'd done some shitty things (thus facilitating his defection), believing that simple minded audiences wouldn't be able to warm to him. So they made him an Uncle Tom Foolery trope instead.

Sorry i overlooked this part and do agree with you, they should have delved into something like this in TLJ, i would have preferred he had done some ****ty things to and he was ashamed and tried to hide this from his new rebel friends, they still could do it, but i feel they should have atleast progressed it some in TLJ, and have it as a reveal in the next movie.

But i guess him running around a casino town on a giant roided up bunny is better

Bacchus

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, it certainly would have been better than the Canto Bight nonsense that we got.

Rose "We let the space horses go. It was worth it, cuz slavery'n'all..."

Finn "But, what about the kids?"

Rose "Yeh, fuck them."

Also.

The next day the space horses were all rounded up and sent back to the pits... because they're horse and they have nothing to defend themselves against the security forces of a planet that exists solely to pander the wants of the galaxies foremost weapons/machines manufacturers.

Bacchus

nix wrote: »

He's shit because you dont know his entire backstory in great detail prior to TFA?

I myself enjoyed Finn in TFA, he was wasted and down played in TLJ. Though thats to do with poor story writing, not his character itself.. Finn breaking Poe out of captivity in the early parts of TFA was great, i was kinda hoping to see their bromance grow more in TLJ and them develop his character more.. but nope

But to call him a shit character just because one his old duties was sanitation, on the grand scheme of major **** ups in TLJ, yeah, its a nit pick.

Agreed. Finn was the best of the new characters in TFA. The movie was mostly told from his POV so you're on the journey with him. He was entirely wasted in TLJ and should have been allowed sacrifice himself in the end. It would have made his involvement in TLJ much more pronounced and it just would have rounded off his arc. I imagine it would have overshadowed Lukes "death" though... perhaps part of the reason not to kill him here.

conorhal

nix wrote: »

Sorry i overlooked this part and do agree with you, they should have delved into something like this in TLJ, i would have preferred he had done some ****ty things to and he was ashamed and tried to hide this from his new rebel friends, they still could do it, but i feel they should have atleast progressed it some in TLJ, and have it as a reveal in the next movie.

It sure would be a different story if his breaking point had been actually participating in a massacre on Jakku alright.

nix wrote: »

But i guess him running around a casino town on a giant roided up bunny is better

Speaking of oddly dissonant things, is it just me or does anybody else think it's weird that BB8 had a body-count in this movie? He actually plans and executes an ambush on the Stardestroyer and massacres a load of Stromtroopers.

Sad Professor

I really don't care about Finn's backstory or what nasty things he got up to in the First Order and I don't want to meet his dad in the next movie - that's what you do in season 7 of a tv show when you are running out of storylines. Either Finn's character works on the basis of who he is in TFA or bust. He works for me, but I get the issue others have with his background as a Stormtrooper not holding up to much scrutiny. The fault here (if any) is that JJ created a character that possibly required a lot of backstory which he wasn't prepared to deal with it in TFA. This is where JJ's background in television becomes a problem. This kind of thing is fine in a tv pilot but not in a movie.

Blaming it on TLJ for not fixing it silly. Johnson had enough of JJ's loose ends or "mysteries" to deal with in this film.

nix

Sad Professor wrote: »

I really don't care about Finn's backstory or what nasty things he got up to in the First Order and I don't want to meet his dad in the next movie - that's what you do in season 7 of a tv show when you are running out of storylines. Either Finn's character works on the basis of who he is in TFA or bust. He works for me, but I get the issue others have with his background as a Stormtrooper not holding up to much scrutiny. The fault here (if any) is that JJ created a character that possibly required a lot of backstory which he wasn't prepared to deal with it in TFA. This is where JJ's background in television becomes a problem. This kind of thing is fine in a tv pilot but not in a movie.

Blaming it on TLJ for not fixing it silly. Johnson had enough of JJ's loose ends or "mysteries" to deal with in this film.

I agree, not everybody needs a backstory, which is why i didnt give it much thought until today. BUT i would have traded it happily instead of the side story casino shit show we did get

A better way around Finn only entering his first battle in his thirties, and being raised from birth as a storm trooper would be if they just made his character a spy, who infiltrated and was a stormtrooper for years. Would have made him more interesting :pac:

Sad Professor

nix wrote: »

I agree, not everybody needs a backstory, which is why i didnt give it much thought until today. BUT i would have traded it happily instead of the side story casino shit show we did get

A better way around Finn only entering his first battle in his thirties, and being raised from birth as a storm trooper would be if they just made his character a spy, who infiltrated and was a stormtrooper for years. Would have made him more interesting :pac:

Sure but that’s a totally different character. Also Finn isn’t that old. Boyega is 24 and Finn is probably younger.

david75

LOoking at it I don’t really care about Finns story. He’s our vehicle to Rey in TFA and sorta is the co protagonist in TFA in a way. Do I need a fleshed out backstory for him more than we got? I don’t think so. The story isn’t about him to any great degree. He’s got pretty much the same story in both films. That is a bit weird but true to his character he just wants to find Rey. I do think they should have let him sacrifice himself against the cannon. It would have made a lot more sense and given his character in both films a lot more agency.
Can only hope he’s given something more worthwhile and harder to do in 9.

one armed dwarf

For me one of VIII's biggest failings is that it's failed to get me excited for the final part. It's de-invested me, if such a word exists.

david75

one armed dwarf wrote: »

For me one of VIII's biggest failings is that it's failed to get me excited for the final part. It's de-invested me, if such a word exists.

Well you also could say it’s left you unexcited for Rians trilogy. 9 is probably in the safest hands possible.