Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Sad Professor

one armed dwarf wrote: »

For me one of VIII's biggest failings is that it's failed to get me excited for the final part. It's de-invested me, if such a word exists.

Basically it didn’t leave any mysteries for the fans to chew on for the next 2 years. This was a misstep, I agree, and I think it’s a factor in the backlash. With TFA fans were initially too busy theorising about Luke, Rey and Snoke to focus on the film. But I also think it bodes well for the next film. Tying up loose ends and twists that the previous film in the series thought was cool does not make for a great movie. See ROTJ where they spent most of the movie tying up TESB’s loose ends.

Tony EH

nix wrote: »

He's shit because you dont know his entire backstory in great detail prior to TFA?

No, it's shit, becasue what we do know, doesn't add up.

Tony EH

Bacchus wrote: »

Also.

The next day the space horses were all rounded up and sent back to the pits... because they're horse and they have nothing to defend themselves against the security forces of a planet that exists solely to pander the wants of the galaxies foremost weapons/machines manufacturers.

But...but...it was worth it.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

I really don't care about Finn's backstory...

nix wrote: »

I agree, not everybody needs a backstory...

It has nothing to do with a "backstory". It's the current story that's the issue.

We're told Finn (and every other nouveau Stormtrooper) has been captured from birth. He looks about 25 years old. That's essentially 20 years of being groomed for and being in the nouveau Stormtrooper corps, We're told, by Finn, that "he's seen things", yet he's been mopping floors. We see him pussy out, on his first mission (after at least 5 or 6 years of active service), when a mate of his gets killed on Jakku. We see him transform, within seconds, into a whooping comic relief character, complete with shakey "sister" head and dumbass "funny" lines. "I'm the boss now Phasma" indeed.

Not a single ounce of what we see squares with what his character is supposed to be. It never feels correct.

It's not a backstory that's needed. It's just a bit of logic that adds up tp what we do see.

nix

Tony EH wrote: »

No, it's shit, becasue what we do know, doesn't add up.

What we do know is **** all, so not much to add up :pac:

Tony EH

Not true.

Of the new characters, it's Finn that we know the most about.

nix

Tony EH wrote: »

Not true.

Of the new characters, it's Finn that we know the most about.

Nah id argue Rey is, which is **** all, so Finn is even more **** all, stolen as a child, we dont know how or if they are conditioned or just trained. Seeing the amount of them, id say just forced to train, but who knows! I dont! You dont! :pac:

Tony EH

conorhal wrote: »

It sure would be a different story if his breaking point had been actually participating in a massacre on Jakku alright.

And a better one too.

Maybe Finn could have been the son of a Stormtrooper (a real one), who filed his head full of adventure and whatnot. Just left out the bits where the Empire were acting in a less than honourable way, shall we say.

So, natch, Finn joins up at 17 or so and goes to fight in the Empire 2.0, with a head full of fakery thanks to dear old dad.

But then service with the First Order doesn't go quite the way he thought it would, with him doing some questionable things, culminating in the massacre of civvies on Jakku, prompting him to nope out.

There's a better and more logical character already.

uncleoswald

Sad Professor wrote: »

But I also think it bodes well for the next film. Tying up loose ends and twists that the previous film in the series thought was cool does not make for a great movie. See ROTJ where they spent most of the movie tying up TESB’s loose ends.

I disagree. Any problems with ROTJ was down to how they tied up story threads, not that they had them at all. I hold storytellers in higher regard than that, it's not too much to expect them to oversee story arcs over 3 movies that would be made in a short space of time. It's not like Disney said "we'll make one film and see if people like it before making another".

Sure it's great that each of this trilogy's filmmakers seem to be able to make their own film, but some narrative through treads should have been sewn from the beginning. It's the third film in a trilogy, there definitely should be more compelling narratives for fans to sink their teeth into.

I liked TLJ fine but I've very little interest in the next, which for a Star Wars film is a remarkable thing for me to say.

Apart from the main narrative of Rey vs. Ren, which I can't imagine JJ will wrap up more satisfactorily then TLJ already did, there is not one narrative or character arcs I am interested in. A few laughably shallow love triangles and... Nope that's it.

As for the rebellion, we've been told on this thread it is totally unreasonable to expect a decisive victory against the Empire. ROTJ may have seemed decisive but apparently Star Wars has to resemble real life (except when it doesn't). Therefore I expect whatever victory that comes at the end of 9 to be short lived and whoever survives to have thoroughly miserable lives afterwards that will be explained in some carbon copy trilogy in the future. So what's the point in investing?

Andrew Beef

It is wrong to group Revenge of the Sith with the other two prequels; the latter are turgid muck but ROTS is a sensational movie.

- Count Dooku vs Obi Wan and Anakin
- Order 66
- Yoda vs Palpatine
- Palpatine revealed
- Obi Wan vs Anakin
- The birth of Vader
- Obi Wan vs General Grievous

As a Star Wars fan, I will never tire of watching ROTS.

johnny_ultimate

I think it’s bloody great that Johnson offered so much closure, really will push Abrams to step outside his comfort zone - Johnson’s practiced what he’s preached and pretty much forced his successor to come up with something new, while delivering a film that’s pretty much complete in its own right (I mean, the next one doesn’t even have to exist and I think this would be a pretty satisfying ending). If the next one’s ****, I don’t really care, but that doesn’t bother me - TLJ is a better film that I’d hoped this sequel trilogy would ever offer, so if the next one’s good that’ll be a nice little bonus.

I’m all in for Johnson’s new trilogy, mind, even if he only ends up making one or two of the films (and assuming Disney doesn’t pull a Disney). I’m game for the blank(er) slate approach for his next take on SW given his obvious reticence to churn out more of the same is woven into the narrative foundation of this one,

uncleoswald

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I think it’s bloody great that Johnson offered so much closure,

Because that is what you want in the second part of a trilogy, closure.

I agree though. At times this did feel like a satisfactory conclusion to the story.

Sad Professor

I know everyone is comparing this to the original trilogy, but third acts don't necessarily have to be climatic in the conventional Hollywood sense by trying to top everything that went before and ticking off resolutions. I think the best third acts are transcendent, going places you never expected the story to go or beyond the point you expected the story to end. By resolving so much I feel like that's what Johnson was trying to set up for the third movie. But JJ doesn't have to go that route if he doesn't want. He still has plenty of loose ends he can choose to resolve. The Knights of Ren (6 former students of Luke) alone could take up a whole movie.

TerrorFirmer

Andrew Beef wrote: »

It is wrong to group Revenge of the Sith with the other two prequels; the latter are turgid muck but ROTS is a sensational movie.

- Count Dooku vs Obi Wan and Anakin
- Order 66
- Yoda vs Palpatine
- Palpatine revealed
- Obi Wan vs Anakin
- The birth of Vader
- Obi Wan vs General Grievous

As a Star Wars fan, I will never tire of watching ROTS.

ROTS has good moments despite Lucas's total inability to write credible dialogue.

Kylo Ren in TFA and TLJ is a momument to GL's failure to convey what he wanted for Anakin in the prequels.

Anakin executing Dooku for example....but squandered by the atrocious scripting that followed.

Order 66 is also good, but could have been done a lot better, and would have resonated better if the rest of the script was up to scratch.

They're popcorn fodder and little else really. I enjoy them myself, but they're terribly disappointing and a shadow of what they should have been...and could easily have been if George had let proper script writers and a competent director bring his treatments to life.

Also...you lost some credability (with me) by saying Yoda v Palpatine is a highlight of ROTS. As far as I'm concerned it's an utter stain on par with Jar Jar Binks for worst misfire of the entire franchise.

johnny_ultimate

uncleoswald wrote: »

Because that is what you want in the second part of a trilogy, closure.

I agree though. At times this did feel like a satisfactory conclusion to the story.

I think this is somewhat of a problem... actually I wouldn’t even say problem, more just a result of Disney’s decision to get in three different directors (Trevverow was still on board for the next one during all TLJ work that actually mattered when it comes to such things). I mean, Abrams loves his incomplete, cliffhanger stories... but Johnson is different. Even his Breaking Bad episodes are some of the most conclusive (and in Fly’s case self-contained) of the series. I’m sure he wouldn’t have been satisfied with a situation where he had to leave a ****load of stuff unresolved. He wanted to tell as complete a story as possible... which this is. Kylo may still be knocking around and the Resistance is in weak shape, but we leave them in such a situation that it’s still very satisfying. What the film communicates gives us a happy, hopeful ending while rounding off the various strands Johnson has been juggling.

I don’t think a trilogy necessarily has to be one story split in three, though It can be three stories that join together in a satisfying way. Obviously you have something like LOTR designed and shot as three parts of one long story, but if you look at Toy Story that’s a great trilogy when it was never meant to be - all that parts simply play off each other extraordinary well. Part three is that kind of transcendent ‘third act’ Sad Prof mentions above.

Even with the original Star Wars... a New Hope is a pretty solid standalone film with probably the same basic sort of broad loose ends you get with TLJ. Like obviously the world would be a much poorer place without Empire, but I think SW would still do its thing pretty well!

Sad Professor

Also re: ROTS and the structure of this trilogy

One of the worst mistakes Lucas made in the prequels was leaving Anakin's dark side turn until Episode III. I mean, the audience knows the kid is going to become Vader from the minute he appears on-screen in Episode I, but Lucas makes us sit through 3 movies before it finally happens. And nothing about how it happens is remotely surprising. That's not good storytelling. Anakin should have become Vader in Episode II, and not even the end of Episode II but like half way through it, because his entire arc is too predictable. The prequels end just as things were getting interesting.

Compare that with this trilogy. We know Snoke is the Emperor of this trilogy and he's going to die, probably killed by Kylo. So why wait? Kill him now, get it over with and get on with telling a new story that we haven't seen before. Ditto the various other things Johnson supposedly resolved too soon. I don't really know what's going to happen in the next movie because most of the obvious things happened already. That's a good thing.

david75

Nah it kicks in in AOTC when he goes and kills all the sand people and his ma dies in his arms..thats kinda the triggr point..

ive been bullied into listening to the ROTS audiobook under the promise that its really brilliant and way better than the film...let's see

he deffo should have gone dark early..start the trilogy with him joining the academy..TPM is kinda unnecessary..

Shakey_jake

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

to scratch.
Also...you lost some credability (with me) by saying Yoda v Palpatine is a highlight of ROTS. As far as I'm concerned it's an utter stain on par with Jar Jar Binks for worst misfire of the entire franchise.

THIS SO SO MUCH!!!

uncleoswald

Toy Story is a great third movie. Part of the reason for that is that the filmmakers were able to ruminate on the characters and themes that came before. They had time to breathe.

But Star Wars was always going to be a trilogy, made in a relativity short amount of time, with writing for the next chapter going on before production was completed on, and people had seen, the previous finished product. The one real advantage to that is you are able to write consistent and planned story arcs. It's an advantage that very few series of films actually have, but they seem to have not gone down that route. JJ should not have to quickly rustle through his old script to find narrative threads to pick up (like the nights of Ren, which I'm having trouble remembering their existence). I seem to remember that when this trilogy was announced, I suggested on that thread that production seemed rushed and Sad Professor disagreeing with me. I suspect we still disagree!

In hindsight I think maybe JJ making the second and and Johnson making the third would have been preferable. Johnson has proved capable of sacrifice the sacred SW cows and resolving conflicts in a satisfactory manner, but not replacing them with a whole lot.

TerrorFirmer

david75 wrote: »

ive been bullied into listening to the ROTS audiobook under the promise that its really brilliant and way better than the film...let's see

he deffo should have gone dark early..start the trilogy with him joining the academy..TPM is kinda unnecessary..

One thing I will say, is that the soundtrack to the new films isn't a patch on that of the prequels.

Phantom Menance in particular has an astounding soundtrack. Duel of the Fates, the Droid Invasion are incredible highlights.

david75

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

One thing I will say, is that the soundtrack to the new films isn't a patch on that of the prequels.

Phantom Menance in particular has an astounding soundtrack. Duel of the Fates, the Droid Invasion are incredible highlights.

i dunno..theres loads of gold in it..its much much better than TFA's..

this one especially is a standout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHb9T6WvvW0

Andrew Beef

I have to disagree.

I loved it in the cinema and still do when Yoda takes out the two Imperial Guards and mocks the Emperor.

It is odd though that he almost wins and then gives up, although my understanding is that in his efforts to beat Yoda, Palpatine’s ability to cloud the future disapates briefly and Yoda sees the Emperor defeated by Luke/Vader and knows what he must do.

nix

Andrew Beef wrote: »

I have to disagree.

I loved it in the cinema and still do when Yoda takes out the two Imperial Guards and mocks the Emperor.

It is odd though that he almost wins and then gives up, although my understanding is that in his efforts to beat Yoda, Palpatine’s ability to cloud the future disapates briefly and Yoda sees the Emperor defeated by Luke/Vader and knows what he must do.

lol your understanding? or ability to make shit up? :pac:

He falls to far, and lesson from fight running along side it (he has the high ground) plus reinforcements

Pero_Bueno

Finn was a great character in TFA, he had great chemistry with Han and Rey - all JJ needs to do is get that back for IX.
Can be done.

david75

Is this new trilogy by Rian going to be broken up with new standalones films?

I wonder

Sad Professor

david75 wrote: »

Is this new trilogy by Rian going to be broken up with new standalones films?

I wonder

I assume it will be every 2 years with standalone films in between. Unless they want Johnson to direct the whole trilogy, in which case they'll have to have a bigger gap. But I doubt that's the plan.

However, if Disney was smart, they'd drop the stand alones and just do one film every 2 years. SW fatigue is already setting in.

Sad Professor

This is a pretty awesome still image from the Praetorian Guard fight:

Relikk

Reminds me... Someone on Instragram did a whole series of recreating scenes with figures. Some scenes from the previous movies, too.



https://www.instagram.com/shootingthegalaxy/

david75

Sad Professor wrote: »

I assume it will be every 2 years with standalone films in between. Unless they want Johnson to direct the whole trilogy, in which case they'll have to have a bigger gap. But I doubt that's the plan.

However, if Disney was smart, they'd drop the stand alones and just do one film every 2 years. SW fatigue is already setting in.

Well officially Solo is the last standalone. Unless they blindside us with a Kenobi announcement. Even that wouldn’t come out til after 9 so I wouldn’t say fatigue is an accurate statement.

david75

Sad Professor wrote: »

This is a pretty awesome still image from the Praetorian Guard fight:

It’s cliche but that whole fight scene is poetry in motion. It’s just so beautifully shot and feels totally real and unchoreographed.