Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Vladimir Poontang

It is still inconsistent with the force abilities of Rey and Kylo.

Kylo can stop lasers with the force mid-air

Rey is BEST JEDI EVER CAN DO NO WRONG.

Fight should have been over as fast as Yoda dispatched those Royal Guards.

david75

The Praetorian guards are human and not force capable. They gave both kylo and Rey a hard time. Both of them had a struggle against them. So I don’t know where you’re pulling the super Rey thing from.

*im confused. Are you saying why isn’t she Mary Sue Rey here? Could it possibly be she never was one? Shock horror.

She loses her temper in this fight big time. He doesn’t at all. He’s had more training it’s safe to assume. Probably trained with these same guards too so he’d know their moves and capabilities.

TerrorFirmer

She has raw force power but she's not anywhere near as skilled as Ren. She bests him in the forest battle becauses he's gravely wounded, but he does the lions share of the work aganist the Praetorian Guard.

On the guards, you'd wonder what's the motivation to fight. Snoke is already dead, why bother taking on Kylo Ren? What makes them so fiercely loyal to a deceased leader, considering Kylo Ren would logically become the new 'supreme leader'...would be curious to know more about their lore.

Wedwood

Maybe the Praetorian Guard were actually the Knights of Ren, so were loyal to Snoke before Kylo showed up.

david75

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

She has raw force power but she's not anywhere near as skilled as Ren. She bests him in the forest battle becauses he's gravely wounded, but he does the lions share of the work aganist the Praetorian Guard.

On the guards, you'd wonder what's the motivation to fight. Snoke is already dead, why bother taking on Kylo Ren? What makes them so fiercely loyal to a deceased leader, considering Kylo Ren would logically become the new 'supreme leader'...would be curious to know more about their lore.

I did wonder about that but it makes sense. Snoke has everyone around him trapped in a cycle of abuse and reward. They’re all under his thumb and punishes them and they’re so warped they put up with it for even a scrap of approval from him. You see him doing it loads to Hux and kylo throughout the film. Carefully asking Kylo how’s the wound and then switching to abusing him verbally and physically seconds later.

It’s also why a truly capable commander like the captain of th Dreadnought, isn’t elevated to a position he deserves. Too much of a mind of his own and strong personality. Doesn’t suit Snokes MO

(That captain was awesome. Think his name is Kannidy).

david75

Wedwood wrote: »

Maybe the Praetorian Guard were actually the Knights of Ren, so were loyal to Snoke before Kylo showed up.

Cant find the link but the PG *might* be clones so sorta endlessly replaceable. Don’t know for sure yet but it was said somewhere as the reason they aren’t force capable but intensely combat trained.
There’s always 8 of them by his side though and KOR are only six.

I’ll try find the link for ye.

Tony EH

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

It is still inconsistent with the force abilities of Rey and Kylo.

Kylo can stop lasers with the force mid-air

Rey is BEST JEDI EVER CAN DO NO WRONG.

Fight should have been over as fast as Yoda dispatched those Royal Guards.

Yeh, that's where I felt that scene fell down. It looked nice and is easily the best scene in the film.

It's just woefully inconsistent with what we know the force users can do.

But, I suppose that can be said for the entire trilogy so far.

There's zero effort at logic being put into anything on the screen. Seems nobody is bothered to actually smoketest any ideas.

Tony EH

Wedwood wrote: »

Maybe the Praetorian Guard were actually the Knights of Ren, so were loyal to Snoke before Kylo showed up.

I doubt it. That just smells of fan theory to me.

More than likely what happened was the KOR was a whizz idea someone had during the script writing for 'The Force Awakens' and was just as quckly forgotten about.

These "Praetorian Guards" were just a riff on the Royal Guard in 'Return of the Jedi'. Almost cut and paste.

Nothing more going on there, I reckon.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

I doubt it. That just smells of fan theory to me.

More than likely what happened was the KOR was a whizz idea someone had during the script writing for 'The Force Awakens' and was just as quckly forgotten about.

These "Praetorian Guards" were just a riff on the Royal Guard in 'Return of the Jedi'. Almost cut and paste.

Nothing more going on there, I reckon.

Well Snoke is just copying the empire and emperor. Down to the smallest details.
He’s even wearing a black ring of obsidian from the foundation of Vader’s castle.
The Emperors royal imperial guard were highly trained combatants that even Vader knew better than to go up against.
There’s a deleted scene of them refusing him entry to the emperor from ROTJ.
Also one of the comics you get to see them really wreck the place against someone.

But mainly you’re unhappy that she isn’t a Mary Sue in that sequence cos it doesn’t add up to what we’ve seen previously. Which is gas

Wibbs

david75 wrote: »

It’s just so beautifully shot

That's true.

and feels totally real and unchoreographed.

That I don't agree with. At all. Take that still pic above. It stuck out to me watching it the first time(I've got a weird pair of eyes) and really noticed it the second time. Namely she's kicking over three of these yahoos with one foot. That's some trick.

Rey's Shoes. Set picture.



Now I don't mind a bit of dramatic licence. Let's face it film fights are almost always unrealistic, never mind when we're talking about laser swords and magic force woo. I found this scene good yes, but I was aware of the camera(s) if you know what I mean? There was also a bit where Ren swings around awkwardly to deepen the 3D effect that jarred a little. But that's me being anal in fairness. :D

Of the fights in the SW universe the oul Phantom Menace comes in for some stick these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU

TBH I found it and find it still pretty damned exciting. The speed is impressive and not camera trickery. Yes it had to be choreographed, but my at the time audience reasoning was the guys have magic force woo so if that were a reality their thrusts and parry's would be extremely fast. There would be no slop in the mix, no endless feeling each other out. The music was bloody fantastic and the whole opening closing energy walls thing was pretty cool. I loved the bit were the baddie hits said energy wall, while the goodie kneels in meditation(though in reality the Ballymena lad would be more likely saying "c'mhere ye wee Sith bastard ye"). Again at the time it was very much a case of "Damn, now that's effin Jedi's fighting!". Obi Wan versus Anakin in the last one was pretty cool too, though overlong and overcooked. I reckon editing out a third of it would have made it much better.

Of the pre Disney sword fights for my money the one in Revenge(I prefer revenge ) of the Jedi is the most "realistic", especially when our Lukey goes a bit dark side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MnMA0TzGI

It looks messy and sloppy, but is precise and effective with weight, emotional and physical behind it, like actual knights of old. "If you won't turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will". Cue our Luke going postal. Best scene in that flic in my humble.

Though one thing stands out and that's Mark's acting chops(and he seems like the kinda chap where you would call him Mark and not out of overfamiliarity). He always had a screen presence, but in The Last Jedi he shows off that's he's a proper actor with it. It's a pity his face is so well known and attached to that role that defined him and reduced his options(though he didn't sit on his arse and wisely and successfully went into the voice roles), because IMHO he could play proper serious roles. And maybe now he will. I really hope he will. He's also got one helluva mind too. And a bloody funny one with it. He's a very likeable man. Just like Carrie had a fine mind and funny and was a very likeable woman*. It's mad to think Mark is now older than Alec Guinness when he first played Ben. Sorry Alec, he looks in way better nick.





*when I heard she'd died, it actually resonated with me. Generally the famous person dies bit doesn't for the most part, unless I knew them, so then they'd be people I knew. With her I had happened upon her books and got to "know" her and her demons and her angels and her personality. And she was a very cool person. Spiky and daft and troubled and clever and funny and wise and daft, but cool. I reckon her pegging it and causing an "issue" for the SW franchise and all the fan talk would have her pissing herself with laughter.

Vladimir Poontang

david75 wrote: »

The Praetorian guards are human and not force capable. They gave both kylo and Rey a hard time. Both of them had a struggle against them. So I don’t know where you’re pulling the super Rey thing from.

From the entire rest of the movie and TFA. The scene isn't consistent with the abilities displayed by both and with the established results of previous encounters between force users and non-force users.

So, it is inconsistent and another example of bad writing.

*im confused. Are you saying why isn’t she Mary Sue Rey here? Could it possibly be she never was one? Shock horror.

Nope. Rey is the very definition of a Mary Sue. This scene is inconsistent with that overall pattern with Rey though and with Kylo and his abilities. Again, as I said already, it is bad writing. Which the film and trilogy is full of, especially relating to the force.

She loses her temper in this fight big time. He doesn’t at all. He’s had more training it’s safe to assume. Probably trained with these same guards too so he’d know their moves and capabilities.

All the more reason why he, as a force user, should have wiped the floor with them sooner than he did. Vader, Rogue One, style would have been more likely the outcome.

david75

Wibbs wrote: »

That's true. That I don't agree with. At all. Take that still pic above. It stuck out to me watching it the first time(I've got a weird pair of eyes) and really noticed it the second time. Namely she's kicking over three of these yahoos with one foot. That's some trick.

Rey's Shoes. Set picture.



Now I don't mind a bit of dramatic licence. Let's face it film fights are almost always unrealistic, never mind when we're talking about laser swords and magic force woo. I found this scene good yes, but I was aware of the camera(s) if you know what I mean? There was also a bit where Ren swings around awkwardly to deepen the 3D effect that jarred a little. But that's me being anal in fairness. :D

Of the fights in the SW universe the oul Phantom Menace comes in for some stick these days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU

TBH I found it and find it still pretty damned exciting. The speed is impressive and not camera trickery. Yes it had to be choreographed, but my at the time audience reasoning was the guys have magic force woo so if that were a reality their thrusts and parry's would be extremely fast. There would be no slop in the mix, no endless feeling each other out. The music was bloody fantastic and the whole opening closing energy walls thing was pretty cool. I loved the bit were the baddie hits said energy wall, while the goodie kneels in meditation(though in reality the Ballymena lad would be more likely saying "c'mhere ye wee Sith bastard ye"). Again at the time it was very much a case of "Damn, now that's effin Jedi's fighting!". Obi Wan versus Anakin in the last one was pretty cool too, though overlong and overcooked. I reckon editing out a third of it would have made it much better.

Of the pre Disney sword fights for my money the one in Revenge(I prefer revenge ) of the Jedi is the most "realistic", especially when our Lukey goes a bit dark side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MnMA0TzGI

It looks messy and sloppy, but is precise and effective with weight, emotional and physical behind it, like actual knights of old. "If you won't turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will". Cue our Luke going postal. Best scene in that flic in my humble.

Though one thing stands out and that's Mark's acting chops(and he seems like the kinda chap where you would call him Mark and not out of overfamiliarity). He always had a screen presence, but in The Last Jedi he shows off that's he's a proper actor with it. It's a pity his face is so well known and attached to that role that defined him and reduced his options(though he didn't sit on his arse and wisely and successfully went into the voice roles), because IMHO he could play proper serious roles. And maybe now he will. I really hope he will. He's also got one helluva mind too. And a bloody funny one with it. He's a very likeable man. Just like Carrie had a fine mind and funny and was a very likeable woman*. It's mad to think Mark is now older than Alec Guinness when he first played Ben. Sorry Alec, he looks in way better nick.





*when I heard she'd died, it actually resonated with me. Generally the famous person dies bit doesn't for the most part, unless I knew them, so then they'd be people I knew. With her I had happened upon her books and got to "know" her and her demons and her angels and her personality. And she was a very cool person. Spiky and daft and troubled and clever and funny and wise and daft, but cool. I reckon her pegging it and causing an "issue" for the SW franchise and all the fan talk would have her pissing herself with laughter.

Look up luke force kick in return of the Jedi. Give you a laugh

david75

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

From the entire rest of the movie and TFA. The scene isn't consistent with the abilities displayed by both and with the established results of previous encounters between force users and non-force users.

So, it is inconsistent and another example of bad writing.



Nope. Rey is the very definition of a Mary Sue. This scene is inconsistent with that overall pattern with Rey though and with Kylo and his abilities. Again, as I said already, it is bad writing. Which the film and trilogy is full of, especially relating to the force.



All the more reason why he, as a force user, should have wiped the floor with them sooner than he did. Vader, Rogue One, style would have been more likely the outcome.

Didn’t you complain about Rose being Asian and fat just a few posts ago? Sorry, dumpy was the word used I believe. On ye go.

nix

Yeah from pulling a roof/wall on top of Luke skywalker (just after waking up to), to stopping a laser blast mid flight (for a few minutes), to pulling a guy relaying a message across the floor to the scruff of his neck.. And he cant force fling a couple of guys into each other.. Or heck.. make their own helmets crush their own heads :rolleyes:

david75

nix wrote: »

Yeah from pulling a roof/wall on top of Luke skywalker (just after waking up to), to stopping a laser blast mid flight (for a few minutes), to pulling a guy relaying a message across the floor to the scruff of his neck.. And he cant force fling a couple of guys into each other.. Or heck.. make their own helmets crush their own heads :rolleyes:

We’ve gone from over choreographed to no choreography in just a few posts.

nix

david75 wrote: »

We’ve gone from over choreographed to no choreography in just a few posts.

What?

pixelburp

Everything in cinema is choreographed; even simply walking across the set will be pre-ordained, the actors expected to stop at a concealed 'X' on the floor. As is often the case with other facets of movies, it's how obvious the 'joins' are that can be the distraction. With stage fighting, there's also the added wrinkle of having to avoid actually killing your lead actors, who themselves are not trained stunt-people, so you can end up with a final scene that looks nothing but fake (how many telegraphed punches or just terrible fight scenes have we all watched down the years?).

That said, that acknowledged fakery does mean there's an option & tendency to bring something of the ballet to fight scenes, where there's a distinct artistry in the movements, thrusts etc. that's obviously fake, but adds to the cinematography and visual splendour of things (I recall Mark Kermode speaking of this when praising The Raid, how its action was more like that of a fluid dance, than a life or death fight in a tower block).

For me, where something like Phantom Menace failed was that the 'dancing' was too obviously that; the scene full of pointless skips, hops and 'showing off' in between the immediate business of trying to actually fight each other. The artifice was there for all the see, and to this viewer broke immersion somewhat as ultimately there was no sense that this was a fight inasmuch as it was a set-piece. In many respects it's was less convincing than the CGI.

On the other hand, what made the big throne-room fight in Last Jedi so effective was that it was a successful marriage of the practical and creative: it was still a heavily choreographed scene, of course it was - every stance, every foot placed was organised towards the result of something beautiful on-screen - but there was still that brutal immediacy where you got the sense of Rey & Kylo having to fight for their lives. Thrusts, hacks and the action in general still landed.

I dunno, maybe none of that makes any sense, but it's like Phantom Menace tried too hard to look pretty, but forgot to actually have a fight, while Last Jedi looked pretty (prettier IMO), but still had its characters try to kill each other between the posing.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Well Snoke is just copying the empire and emperor. Down to the smallest details.

He's only "copying" because that's what the writers are doing themselves. It's part of the reason why Disney Star Wars is a shadow of the real thing.

It should have (could have) been so much better.

david75 wrote: »

But mainly you’re unhappy that she isn’t a Mary Sue in that sequence cos it doesn’t add up to what we’ve seen previously. Which is gas

No, people want a logical consistency to the events that appear on the screen. Why know Ren can flip people around from across a room, can stop laser bolts in mid air, etc.

We know that, somehow, Rey is super duper strong with the auld force, just cos.

But they, strangely, just don't bother in the throne room fight?

When you write your character(s) as, essentially, supermen using ridiculous powers one scene and not using them in another, you invite criticism.

There's no logical consistency there. It's just shit thrown on the screen and a hope that the fan base either won't notice or will make an excuse for it.

Tony EH

pixelburp wrote: »

Everything in cinema is choreographed; even simply walking across the set will be pre-ordained, the actors expected to stop at a concealed 'X' on the floor. As is often the case with other facets of movies, it's how obvious the 'joins' are that can be the distraction. With stage fighting, there's also the added wrinkle of having to avoid actually killing your lead actors, who themselves are not trained stunt-people, so you can end up with a final scene that looks nothing but fake (how many telegraphed punches or just terrible fight scenes have we all watched down the years?).

That said, that acknowledged fakery does mean there's an option & tendency to bring something of the ballet to fight scenes, where there's a distinct artistry in the movements, thrusts etc. that's obviously fake, but adds to the cinematography and visual splendour of things (I recall Mark Kermode speaking of this when praising The Raid, how its action was more like that of a fluid dance, than a life or death fight in a tower block).

For me, where something like Phantom Menace failed was that the 'dancing' was too obviously that; the scene full of pointless skips, hops and 'showing off' in between the immediate business of trying to actually fight each other. The artifice was there for all the see, and to this viewer broke immersion somewhat as ultimately there was no sense that this was a fight inasmuch as it was a set-piece. In many respects it's was less convincing than the CGI.

On the other hand, what made the big throne-room fight in Last Jedi so effective was that it was a successful marriage of the practical and creative: it was still a heavily choreographed scene, of course it was - every stance, every foot placed was organised towards the result of something beautiful on-screen - but there was still that brutal immediacy where you got the sense of Rey & Kylo having to fight for their lives. Thrusts, hacks and the action in general still landed.

I dunno, maybe none of that makes any sense, but it's like Phantom Menace tried too hard to look pretty, but forgot to actually have a fight, while Last Jedi looked pretty (prettier IMO), but still had its characters try to kill each other between the posing.

It makes perfect sense. But, as I said a few pages back, there's choreographed and there's choreographed. Yes, every scene has to be choreographed in order for the actors to hit their mark and remain in shot/focus/camera etc and so that they don't actually beat the crap out of one another and put a star in hospital.

But, choreographed fights that look like dancing will always look a bit twee and never truly convincing. The moves are impressive, but you might as well be watching Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers.

Nettle Soup

Were there any Jedi mind controls in this 2 recent Star Wars movies? I do love a Jedi mind trick.

david75

At this point anyone involved in Star Wars, denying anything? Just sends me the other way in it. I mean he said ‘I know’ to her!! We all know what that means!!

Daisy Ridley Downplays the Idea of a Rey and Poe Romance in 'Episode IX'

http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2018/01/daisy-ridley-downplays-idea-of-rey-and.html

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Daisy Ridley Downplays the Idea of a Rey and Poe Romance in 'Episode IX'

Why would there be? We've seen nothing at all in two whole film's worth of stuff to suggest that something like that would happen.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Why would there be? We've seen nothing at all in two whole film's worth of stuff to suggest that something like that would happen.

They’re both making mad googley eyes at each other and grinning their heads off
Just kiddin. It’s way too late in the game to make a romance with anyone. Except maybe kylo. But also unlikely.

Tony EH

Finn and Rose are ridiculous already.

We don't any more nonsense.

david75

They’ll never top Han and Leia for a brilliant and believable romance dynamic but that doesn’t mean they won’t try.

nix

david75 wrote: »

We’ve gone from over choreographed to no choreography in just a few posts.

nix wrote: »

What?

I said whaaaaatt???

david75

nix wrote: »

I said whaaaaatt???

Haha! I don’t remember.
is it about lightsabers?

nix

david75 wrote: »

Haha! I don’t remember.
is it about lightsabers?

I've no idea what your comment even meant, but it was targeted at me so im looking for elaboration

david75

nix wrote: »

I've no idea what your comment even meant, but it was targeted at me so im looking for elaboration

I don’t remember it. Don’t worry about it.

david75

Brilliant

https://twitter.com/sequelmemes/status/950842250359078912