Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

nix wrote: »

And with that, it would make sense to tell the best pilot in the fleet who has proven himself, countless times about the plan. He made a bad leadership call on a mission he was leading, that wasnt exactly a failed mission. There is no reason not to tell Poe about the plan, its ****ing stupid not to :rolleyes:

Do you think Poe got all the way to commander by being an untrustworthy hot head?

It doesnt make sense, and the reason it doesnt make sense is because the writing is a ****ing joke. :pac:

Would you call back the guy you just caught burgling your house to come back and give him the keys to your car and bank card and PIN number?

david75

So the iron..the hardware wars reference in TLJ?

The guy who created hardware wars also created the 12345678910112 animation on Sesame Street.

And Frank Oz was on Sesame Street as Grover..who has the same voice as Yoda...who is TLJ


So this means there WILL be 12 Star Wars saga films.


It’s all connected.


Mind. Blown

nix

david75 wrote: »

Would you call back the guy you just caught burgling your house to come back and give him the keys to your car and bank card and PIN number?

......what are you babbling about?

Wait a second.... did you write the script for the last jedi?

No wonder it makes no sense :pac:

Cookie_Monster

kerplun k wrote: »

Which shows that he’s a loose canning and not thinking straight.

Think about it for a second. Would you let a man who’s actions have just caused the deaths of half his fleet, and then try defend those actions, honestly, if you were in charge, would you go around telling ever Tom, Dick and Harry, your one and only escape route, and it course it was top secret, it only takes one person, a traitor or someone just trying to save themselves to feck everything up.

Well I'd try and write the thing so the frankly ridiculous space chase didn't even come up in the first place as it makes no sense at all. Failing that I wouldn't even have purple hair in the film ,she's totally pointless. I'd have Akbar proposing the plan somewhat differently since he's already an established character

david75

nix wrote: »

......what are you babbling about?

Wait a second.... did you write the script for the last jedi?

No wonder it makes no sense :pac:

I’ll play your point rather than you. I’ll go slow for you.
I’ll ask again. You’d trust someone who has repeatedly screwed you over and fvcked up and let them know information vital to the survival of your people, despite the fact he just got lots of your people killed earlier the very same day?
You’d tell the person responsible for loads of your soldiers dying, what you’re goihg on do next?

You’d actually trust that guy?seriously? You don’t understand how chain of command works, never mind consequences for screwing up so monumentally.

kerplun k

david75 wrote: »

Would you call back the guy you just caught burgling your house to come back and give him the keys to your car and bank card and PIN number?

Exactly.
It would be like Disney letting Josh Trank direct a Star Wars film after butchering a Fan4stic film

david75

That hair though. And that dress.

They were both kinda outta place on a rough n ready rag tag fleet being pursued.

Loved her but..the get up? Not so much. She looked like she just had to leave a big gala event in a ballroom to take command.

kerplun k

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Well I'd try and write the thing so the frankly ridiculous space chase didn't even come up in the first place as it makes no sense at all. Failing that I wouldn't even have purple hair in the film ,she's totally pointless. I'd have Akbar proposing the plan somewhat differently since he's already an established character

Okay, but you know it was Leia’s plan, right? Holdo was just following orders, trying her best to stick to the plan in a time of crises and keep everyone alive, oh, and then she sacrificed herself to save everyone.

nix

david75 wrote: »

I’ll play your point rather than you. I’ll go slow for you.
I’ll ask again. You’d trust someone who has repeatedly screwed you over and fvcked up and let them know information vital to the survival of your people, despite the fact he just got lots of your people killed earlier the very same day?
You’d tell the person responsible for loads of your soldiers dying, what you’re goihg on do next?

You’d actually trust that guy?seriously? You don’t understand how chain of command works, never mind consequences for screwing up so monumentally.

When did Poe "repeatedly" screw purple hair over? Excluding the secret side mission he planned as a result of purple hair acting like she has no plan?

The only thing Poe done wrong prior to purple hair showing up was ignoring the call to retreat and continue with the initial plan on the previous mission. A plan which was successful none the less, but at the cost of life, thats "war", but he went against Leia's request so was demoted. This is one incident, demotion means going down a rank, not being banned from knowing future missions, or all of a sudden being deemed the most untrustworthy person in the rebellion.

Oh and yes, I'd trust Poe, best pilot in the fleet, helped get the rebellion to where they are, not one you would just suddenly turn your back on and forget where his heart is..

:rolleyes:

david75

nix wrote: »

When did Poe "repeatedly" screw purple hair over? Excluding the secret side mission he planned as a result of purple hair acting like she has no plan?

The only thing Poe done wrong prior to purple hair showing up was ignoring the call to retreat and continue with the initial plan on the previous mission. A plan which was successful none the less, but at the cost of life, thats "war", but he went against Leia's request so was demoted. This is one incident, demotion means going down a rank, not being banned from knowing future missions, or all of a sudden being deemed the most untrustworthy person in the rebellion.

Oh and yes, I'd trust Poe, best pilot in the fleet, helped get the rebellion to where they are, not one you would just suddenly turn your back on and forget where his heart is..

:rolleyes:

Disobeys direct order. Gets loads of people killed. Sends off two troops on secret mission and gets even more people killed and escape plan exposed. ‘Ok Poe here’s what we’re doing next to survive’.


You wanted that to happen and think that makes sense? You don’t see the problem there at all?

Right so.

nix

david75 wrote: »

Disobeys direct order. Gets loads of people killed. Sends off two troops on secret mission and gets even more people killed and escape plan exposed. ‘Ok Poe here’s what we’re doing next to survive’.


You wanted that to happen and think that makes sense? You don’t see the problem there at all?

Right so.

Ummmm, Disobeys direct order to take down a dreadnaught killing countless first order scum, at the cost of rebel life. Which Leia demoted him for..

THATS IT

He hadn't done anything else wrong when Purple head took over and cut him out from knowing the plan, so you cant include the other things at that point, because they hadn't happened yet, they are the result of her not trusting him :rolleyes:

And while im thinking about it anyway, Poe's decision to keep on attacking the dreadnought was the right decision, because the ships and pilots would have been blown up anyway when Kylo flew in and wrecked all their ships when he blew up the ship bay, the dreadnought would have been the lead ship then and the guns on that would have reached and blew the entire fleet up :rolleyes:

Poe for General TBH :rolleyes:

kerplun k

nix wrote: »

When did Poe "repeatedly" screw purple hair over? Excluding the secret side mission he planned as a result of purple hair acting like she has no plan?

The only thing Poe done wrong prior to purple hair showing up was ignoring the call to retreat and continue with the initial plan on the previous mission. A plan which was successful none the less, but at the cost of life, thats "war", but he went against Leia's request so was demoted. This is one incident, demotion means going down a rank, not being banned from knowing future missions, or all of a sudden being deemed the most untrustworthy person in the rebellion.

Oh and yes, I'd trust Poe, best pilot in the fleet, helped get the rebellion to where they are, not one you would just suddenly turn your back on and forget where his heart is..

:rolleyes:

Which is why he was only demoted.

Giving someone a time out, and dressing down for a few stupid mistakes is not the same as turning your back on them.

And he was repeatedly screwing things up, first by disobeying orders, costing lives, then trying to defend those actions, and not only that, he then called out his superior in front of everyone, and basically told everyone on the ship they were going to die and had no hope. And for good measures he then he went on a whole new secret side mission, again, resulting in the loss of lives, and your questioning the decision not to include him in on this delicate plan.

You don’t let someone off the hook completely just because their heart is in the right place. Good intentions or not, actions have consequences, And if your actions have been reckless, there must be consequences, and you hope they move on and learn from it.

nix

kerplun k wrote: »

Which is why he was only demoted.

He wasn't only demoted though, he was alienated and treated like a potential mole.

And again you keep ignoring the fact that his later actions happened prior to the decision to not tell him the plan.

I think the both of you need to watch the movie again as your concept on the sequence of events is mostly backwards :rolleyes:

david75

I think you’re missing the point entirely. Which was to teach Poe the often fatal consequences of rash decisions at the start of the film and give him an arc where he understands what true leadership is by the end of the film.
Awarding him for getting people killed and letting him in on the plan to escape doesn’t get him to that point in any way whatsoever. He’d still be an idiot in an x wing wanting to blow things up had he not been taught The lesson the hard way.

So yeah it’s yourself that needs to rewatch and try understand that.

david75

Ouch. You won’t kike this Nix, even I think it’s a bit harsh
Poe Dameron is the real villain of the last Jedi
https://nerdist.com/poe-dameron-villain-star-wars-last-jedi/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=Newsletter_20180111

nix

david75 wrote: »

I think you’re missing the point entirely. Which was to teach Poe the often fatal consequences of rash decisions at the start of the film and give him an arc where he understands what true leadership is by the end of the film.
Awarding him for getting people killed and letting him in on the plan to escape doesn’t get him to that point in any way whatsoever. He’d still be an idiot in an x wing wanting to blow things up had he not been taught The lesson the hard way.

So yeah it’s yourself that needs to rewatch and try understand that.

Jesus christ i know what they were doing, I just highlighted that it was a mess and didnt make sense with the way they done it, and you guys started flipping out and whining that it was perfectly executed, when it clearly wasnt :rolleyes:

david75

Brilliant it’s true tho. Everything is better with led zeppelin

https://twitter.com/forcesportspod/status/951637977675026432

Bacchus

On the Poe - Holdo thing I'll just put this out there.... if you have a loose cannon hotshot commander/captain... don't tell him just enough of the plan so that all he sees is inevitable death. That will do nothing to stop him doing something rash/daring. In fact it encourages him to go off with his own plan. Either put him on lockdown and tell him nothing or fill him in properly. The way it was done in TLJ was done entirely so they could have the off ship adventures of Rose and Finn which were an absolute bore.

Bacchus

... and to be honest the plan in the end only buys a bit of time. The rebels are still completely dependent on support arriving. So, it could have been plausible to have Poe filled in but still go off plan. It was unnecessary from the plot point of view to have Poe in dark.

Oh and also everyone else on the ship seemed to know the plan so how did Poe not just find out from someone other than Leia/Holdo? The whole thing was clumsy to me.

Tony EH

nix wrote: »

He's a captain (Recently commander), he's not a private scrub, he was demoted, not kicked out of the rebellion, him knowing there's a plan is better than him panicking and doing his own plan. Which is what happens, it doesnt make sense that him nor the dozen others that helped him didnt know what was going on when the rest of the bloody ship knew, top secret my ass.. :rolleyes:

Of course.

The plan is a rendezvous. To a defined area on a specific planet.

EVERYONE would have to know the plan for it to even work.

The whole sub plot is stupid and requires the viewer to make excuses for stupid actions of stupid characters.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

This is a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking the Poe/Holdo stuff. I wish people would just say this instead of claiming it's a plot hole.

I don't see anyone claiming it's a "plot hole" though.

People are saying it's a ridiculous plot line that doesn't really make a lot sense, especially given the nature of the actual plan itself.

Anyway, yes, we're repeating ourselves.

I just posted the meme cos I thought it was funny.

tony stark

david75 wrote: »

Ouch. You won’t kike this Nix, even I think it’s a bit harsh
Poe Dameron is the real villain of the last Jedi
https://nerdist.com/poe-dameron-villain-star-wars-last-jedi/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_campaign=Newsletter_20180111

Yeah his sense of humour killed the movie! Boom boom Dameron

irishman86

Bacchus wrote: »

On the Poe - Holdo thing I'll just put this out there.... if you have a loose cannon hotshot commander/captain... don't tell him just enough of the plan so that all he sees is inevitable death. That will do nothing to stop him doing something rash/daring. In fact it encourages him to go off with his own plan. Either put him on lockdown and tell him nothing or fill him in properly. The way it was done in TLJ was done entirely so they could have the off ship adventures of Rose and Finn which were an absolute bore.

Uh they were the worst :mad: like i'm like why are we watching this bull**** story arc

tigger123

Just seen it and loved it. Unexpectedly funny.

Would have loved more of Rey in it tbh. And not sure I'm buying the line on her parents.

Hmmmm...

Earthhorse

david75

Rians seems to have found his gif

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/951825466930872320

https://twitter.com/runwithskizzers/status/951464993391824901

Gbear

Tony EH wrote: »

It's just woefully inconsistent with what we know the force users can do.

But, I suppose that can be said for the entire trilogy so far.

There's zero effort at logic being put into anything on the screen. Seems nobody is bothered to actually smoketest any ideas.

This is just another example of pretend-objectivity in criticising this film.

There is absolutely no problem pointing this out in general terms. If you're not into Star Wars, Fantasy, or Sci-fi and you find all this sort of thing irritating then yeah, this is a valid criticism, although I'm not sure why you'd have bothered going to see it - not when we've already had 8 other films doing the same.

I've seen people complaining about Snoke's ship's cannons having curved shots and that that they're lasers and that doesn't make sense in space, I've seen people arguing that Poe and co should've been sucked out of the ship when Leia came back in, following her defenestration from the bridge, I've seen people complain that Rey could fly the Falcon in the first film...

Why are you watching these films?
None of this is even remotely out of character for Star Wars. In fact it's a core tenet. You can barely go a scene in any Star Wars film without having to either totally suspend disbelief or at least take what you're seeing on screen as given.

I don't have an issue with these nitpicks bothering people. What I do take issue with is the intellectual dishonesty from people claiming to be fans of the other films who selectively pick these out but ignore the exact same class of problem from the previous films.
Even Empire is riddled with nonsense!

Why does the Death Star not scramble 2000 fighters instead of half a dozen to defend it?
Why don't they just blow up Yavin? Why didn't they hyperspace in at an angle where they could shoot immediately?
Why were there no fighters at Hoth? Why weren't one of the dozens of Star Destroyers defending the escape path from the base? Why didn't they land 50,000 troops instead of 200 and 5 ATATs?
Why does the Emperor allow Darth Vader to throw him off a thing when he could just freeze him with the force? Why do care bear arrows penetrate Storm Trooper armour (what is that armour even for? It does absolutely nothing!), why does it take them so long to destroy a tiny republic fleet when they outnumber them 5000:1?

These are just 10 minute slices from those 3 films. The rest of the films aren't any different.

You can go through some sort of mental gymnastics to try to answer these kinds of issues but you can't escape the fact that Star Wars is nonsense from start to finish and if you can't accept that that's absolutely fine, but these films aren't for you.

Logic has always been a very distant second to narrative in Star Wars. That is the kind of films they are.

I'm not sure what begets this sort of hypocrisy in analysis. Perhaps it's about rose tinted glasses. Maybe a lot of these people haven't actually seen the OT recently so they don't remember what the films are about.
Some are clearly using it as fodder for their culture war bollocks, evidenced by some posters slagging off actresses for being fat or claiming it's a post-modernist undermining of traditional heroism.
At any rate, there's been a strong reaction to it's foibles that simply isn't merited.

Complaining about logical consistency in Star Wars is like complaining about a lack of gritty violence in a My Little Pony film.

Of course, there are non-hypocritical criticisms of this film. Canto-bight is boring and in general terms, the story from both of these films is somewhere between a blow for blow copy, and incoherent and unengaging, and there are some lines that just don't land (particularly for Finn, who has the worst written dialogue) in a way that you can't attribute to being dated, like you can for some in the OT.
There's a general lack of vision for the trilogy as a whole.

I certainly wouldn't argue that it's a perfect film, but there's a huge lack of self-awareness all over the internet about how intellectually dishonest a large amount of the criticism is.

david75

Agree with all of that and have been saying as much since we’ve had Star Wars film threads but the reply always seem to be the OT is kinda bullet proof from this kind of comparative analysis in its own ridiculous inconsistencies and endless excuses get made for them.

Gbear

david75 wrote: »

Agree with all of that and have been saying as much since we’ve had Star Wars film threads but the reply always seem to be the OT is kinda bullet proof from this kind of comparative analysis in its own ridiculous inconsistencies and endless excuses get made for them.

In most respects I don't even think they are valid criticisms, whether they're for the OT or the Sequel Trilogy.

Who's to say it's an invalid form of storytelling to put the narrative ahead of logic?

If you don't like that kind of story telling then that's fine. Some people don't like fantasy of any stripe, and even though I don't understand it, that's ok.

To some extent, that was a failing of the Prequels (in addition to being poorly choreograhped, shot, written and everything else wrong with them).
It got too bogged down in details of Mediclorians, trade deals and trying to jam a political drama into Star Wars it forget what universe it was in.

Also, because they sucked, I'm sure I've fallen into the same trap - trying to piss on it with nitpicks.
Within the Star Wars context, there's not really anything wrong with contriving to make Obi Wan chop Darth Maul in half without earning such a thing or demonstrating his capacity to do so. The real problem with that scene is that it wasn't done in a way that paid the fight scene off or the character of Darth Maul. It was anti-climactic.

david75

The main thing I don’t get and you picked up on it and I’m seeing it a lot elsewhere, if now after two films in a new trilogy you find they aren’t working for you, maybe that’s cool and they just aren’t for you. You’ll always have the OT or the PT or whatever you’re into. Railing against anyone who does enjoy them and in some cases insulting people who do like the new ones though? Have ye nothing else to do? Seriously?

I can only imagine they’re sorta deeply p!ssed off that the new ones arent working for them. I felt the same on rogue one and eventually came to like it. Sometimes this stuff takes a while. The best art like albums or films often don’t give themselves up first try and take some time. Like we said much earlier, Empire was that for a great many people. Took ROTJ for it to be seen as best of the three given time and context.

I’m thinking you’ll see all but the most hardliners come around on TLJ once they’ve seen it a few more times.


It’s out on home release March 27 too which is cool.