Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Agreed. It's the very deifintion of hit and hope and it isn't working. Everything JJ Abrams set up in TFA, was simply abandoned by Johnson in TLJ. In fact, you could say that everything that was set up in the OT was abandoned by both Abrams and Johnson.

No doubt, in the next film, Abrams won't give a tinkers cuss what happened in the TLJ either and just randomly come up with a series of events that, in essence, mean bugger all.

Also agree on a pre-planning stage that should have been the central focus of work before the final script for TFA was penned. It's clear from the lack of solidity on the political state of the GFFA, to the barest sketches of characters, to characters being written in and out on a whim, to the sheer WTF of some of the events that made it to the screen, that none of that happened at all.

And before the "but the OT..." crowd chime in, yes we know that Lucas made a lot up as he went along. But, 1. That's no excuse for Disney and 2. He didn't just abandon everything that was set up in the previous films.

You’re missing the macro view here. Nothing has been abandoned at all. Quite the opposite.
Luke’s whole standpoint now is saying the dogma and lack of vision of the Jedi is where it all went wrong for them and the galaxy.
This goes directly back to and is what the prequels were all about. All three of them. It’s a brilliant through line Connecting all three trilogies via Luke’s POV on it all now looking back. It’s set up perfectly for JJ to land and tie it all up.

david75

tigger123 wrote: »

I'd be inclined to agree on Leia; it would have felt cheap, opportunistic and unethical to kill her off in the movie.

Plus, Rian Johnson had his script, arc and own story to tell. He was right to stick by that.

In all the debate on this thread (some of which is baffling) I'm surprised the issue of Reys parentage hasn't been discussed more - it's one of the movies key moments.

Still unsure how I feel about it, and whether I believe what Kylo said... Or am I wrong?

People are satisfied with the answer that she’s nobody. I think that works for right now. You don’t have to be of some royal bloodline to have this power and if they went there and made her a Skywalker or Kenobi everyone would be complaining about that too no doubt.

I think kylos lying to her. He’s found her biggest fear that they just abandoned her and he’s exposed it and made her admit it. I find it baffling everyone’s buying the bad guys word on it. He’s clearly trying to manipulate her and break her down. And he thinks he’s done enough to make her join him that’s why he’s throwing his tantrum in the aftermath of the throne room cos he hasn’t and he can’t have it his way.

Definitely think JJ will give her her true parents story at least in 9. They don’t have to be known mighty characters. But he’ll let her have an explanation of what happened to them and why they left. Huge payoff for the characters arc and JJ revenge on the parade of FU JJ that Rian did in TLJ by abandoning and ignoring a lot of his set up.

Sad Professor

tigger123 wrote: »

In all the debate on this thread (some of which is baffling) I'm surprised the issue of Reys parentage hasn't been discussed more - it's one of the movies key moments.

Still unsure how I feel about it, and whether I believe what Kylo said... Or am I wrong?

Rey and her parents being nobodies is the truth. She said it herself. They won't go back on it. Not least because it was JJ's idea. It's in the TFA trailer: "Who are you?" "I'm no one". Ridley said she knew all along. The only reason they'd go back on it is to kowtow to a minority of fans who are pissed off that their silly Rey Kenobi and Rey is a clone of Palpatine theories were wrong.

However, what Kylo says about her parents selling her for drinking money, now that could turn out to be lie, i.e. they could reveal that her parents actually loved her and wanted to come back for her but Simon Pegg's character killed them etc etc. But I doubt it. Dramatically the idea that Rey was unloved and abandoned is gold and will provide Rey with some inner conflict in the final film. With Leia gone all those insecurities will come back to the surface putting Rey on a collision course with Kylo, who, unlike her, had a family who loved him but destroyed it.

david75

david75 wrote: »

So much eye roll.

*mens rights activists

https://twitter.com/bbw_bff/status/953106797878960128

Just skimmed through this. Luke is barely in it. He dies from a single shot of the AT-AT thingys. Its hilarious. Anyone who takes this edit seriously is a fool.

tigger123

Sad Professor wrote: »

Rey and her parents being nobodies is the truth. She said it herself. They won't go back on it. Not least because it was JJ's idea. It's in the TFA trailer: "Who are you?" "I'm no one". Ridley said she knew all along. The only reason they'd go back on it is to kowtow to a minority of fans are pissed off that their silly Rey Kenobi and Rey is a clone of Palpatine theories were wrong.

However, what Kylo says about her parents selling her for drinking money, now that could turn out to be lie, i.e. they could reveal that her parents actually loved her and wanted to come back for her but Simon Pegg's character killed them etc etc. But I doubt it. Dramatically the idea that Rey was unloved and abandoned is gold and will provide Rey with some inner conflict in the final film. With Leia gone all those insecurities will come back to the surface putting Rey on a collision course with Kylo, who, unlike her, had a family who loved him but destroyed it.

For me, it's her saying that she knew all along that's probably sealing it for me. As in, it's done and dusted, her parents were nobodies.

But yeah, there could be far more back story there; just because they weren't Jedi doesn't mean there isn't something great there. Rogue One was about an engineer and his daughter and it was fantastic, and Han Solo is a smuggler.

david75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just skimmed through this. Luke is barely in it. He dies from a single shot of the AT-AT thingys. Its hilarious. Anyone who takes this edit seriously is a fool.

The TLJ hate brigade on this level is almost literally empty vessels make the most noise. Some of the tweets on that tell you everything you need to know. These are the same guys bombing RT and ranting against it everywhere possible.


The flip side is also so annoying. Pal of mine on a podcast made a totally innocuous joke about Poe being revealed going on a mission disguised as a woman in 9 and they received a massive amount of complaints from the trans community and he’s had to step back from the show.

You can’t fvckin win. People addicted to being outraged all the time it seems.

Andrew Beef

If Rey is indeed a nobody, who did we see in her dream/vision during TFA flying off in a ship whilst she was a child left with the fat fella played by Simon Pegg?

Sad Professor

tigger123 wrote: »

For me, it's her saying that she knew all along that's probably sealing it for me. As in, it's done and dusted, her parents were nobodies.

But yeah, there could be far more back story there; just because they weren't Jedi doesn't mean there isn't something great there. Rogue One was about an engineer and his daughter and it was fantastic, and Han Solo is a smuggler.

I'm sure we will find out more about them. Like I expect Rey will return to Jakku, talk to Unkar, and find their grave. But I don't think it will contradict what we learned in TLJ.

Sad Professor

Andrew Beef wrote: »

If Rey is indeed a nobody, who did we see in her dream/vision during TFA flying off in a ship whilst she was a child left with the fat fella played by Simon Pegg?

I think this will be explained. Maybe they flew off on the ship and it crashed. Or maybe that was just part of the fantasy that she created. That they were on the ship and would come back one day, etc. It's clear in TFA that she's in denial.

david75

One of many ideas I had about her was that her parents were in the first order and hid her for her own protection cos she was clearly force capable and they didn’t want Snoke finding out about her.

I do think she was hidden though. Not sold.

Andrew Beef

My sense is that her parents were “somebody” and that all will be revealed in Episode IX.

Even Luke’s “who are you” stuff was odd.

pixelburp

Maybe I'm skipping too much through the conversations here, but why does it NEED to be a significant somebody or set of somebodies that constitute Reys parents? What's to gain out of the story for Snoke to have been lying & that her parents were in actually important after all?

I get that Abrams teased some great mystery behind her forebears, but he teased about a dozen mysteries and you could have spent another 3 movies just fleshing them out. For the sake of storytelling sanity Johnson had to can some of them; do we really want another 'Lost' situation? Really? Ultimately is there not a better story to be had in Rey rising above her humble origins, a more layered characterisation if her search for her parents is just an insecure obsession, when her true path lay in the future she chooses for herself?

I can't think of a single more tedious and overused trope within Epic narratives than the whole 'chosen one' thread; it's done to death at this stage - at least twice now in Star Wars alone - and it nearly always robs any characters of their own agency. Same goes for prophecies, destinies and all that guff.

david75

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe I'm skipping too much through the conversations here, but why does it NEED to be a significant somebody or set of somebodies that constitute Reys parents? What's to gain out of the story for Snoke to have been lying & that her parents were in actually important after all?

I get that Abrams teased some great mystery behind her forebears, but he teased about a dozen mysteries and you could have spent another 3 movies just fleshing them out. For the sake of storytelling sanity Johnson had to can some of them; do we really want another 'Lost' situation? Really? Ultimately is there not a better story to be had in Rey rising above her humble origins, a more layered characterisation if her search for her parents is just an insecure obsession, when her true path lay in the future she chooses for herself?

I can't think of a single more tedious and overused trope within Epic narratives than the whole 'chosen one' thread; it's done to death at this stage - at least twice now in Star Wars alone - and it nearly always robs any characters of their own agency. Same goes for prophecies, destinies and all that guff.

I’m with you. She doesn’t have to be some descendent of the in universe aristocracy. But you can make a compelling and worthy story of giving her an answer for her questions and parents without them being big deal ‘somebodys’.

I kinda think they should too.

nix

Derco wrote: »

Actually thinking of that scene, the way the Executor 'sinks' into the Death Star is another example of gravity in space in the OT

haha nah, they just got caught in the death stars artificial gravity

Andrew Beef

Surely large things like the Death Star have their own gravity?

david75

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Surely large things like the Death Star have their own gravity?

Don’t do it lads. Physics in Star Wars. Nnnoooooo!! Haha

Those ties bombed the asteroid the falcon was hiding in remember.

It doesn’t really matter.

johnny_ultimate

Happy to see Johnson and the cast have reacted to the ‘no women’ cut with the respect, seriousness and critical analysis it deserves

https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/953107873487208448

https://twitter.com/hamillhimself/status/953312313758564352

https://twitter.com/johnboyega/status/953395150356705280

david75

Those lads are delighted that the luminaries responded but it’ll also just make them double down on this absolute bullshvt

It’s pathetic.

Sad Professor

Eloquent piece about the film and what happened to Luke by Joseph Gordon Levitt:

I also wanna say, I’m not here to tell anybody they’re wrong. Personally, I don’t think it’s possible to be wrong when it comes to movies, or art, or literature, or whatever you wanna call it. In our ever more gamified culture, with endless awards shows, publicized box office figures, and the all-knowing Tomatometer, it seems conversations about movies are more and more often put into quantified terms of good and bad, best and worst, right and wrong. And then there’s the twitface-insta-fueled tribalism, people taking sides, pointing fingers and spitting venom at the other guys. There seems to be a lot of that going around right now from both lovers and haters of this movie. Dear oh dear, folks. This isn’t politics or sports. The fruit is in the subjectivity. If you feel differently than I do, I’m 100% cool with that. I think it’s often in these very differences of perspective that movies can be at their most enlightening, helping us learn something about each other and ourselves.

So, with all that said, I’ll ask again… What happened to Luke Skywalker?

https://medium.com/@hitRECordJoe/a-new-old-skywalker-253efda3809c

seamus

Finally saw this last night, cinema completely to ourselves, which was nice.

I get why some people weren't mad on it. It doesn't take itself too seriously, there's a lot of light-heartedness and content aimed at kids in it. This is the problem when you, as an adult, watch what is fundamentally an action/adventure series for children aged 8-14. This is why you have scenes that are a bit over the top like Leia's spacewalk, ghost Yoda summoning a lightning strike and a narrative that tend to jump ten steps ahead; Rey is able to accomplish in 2.5 lessons with Luke, what took Luke weeks to learn with Yoda. Because that's the kind of thing that engages the target audience.

You have to accept these things when you watch it, and it's not going to get super deep, serious and philosophical and introduce mind-bending conundrums.

I enjoyed it. I had managed to avoid all spoilers, but that actually pulled me out of it a bit; I didn't know if they were going to edit Fisher's death into it - I was expecting her to be on a transport that gets destroyed, or otherwise some plot device created where General Organa is killed suddenly.

By the end of the movie it's pretty clear though why they didn't/couldn't edit her out and I'm glad they didn't.

I agree that Rey's parents don't have to be "somebody" - with the exception of the Skywalker dynasty, none of the other Jedi came from "somebody", so there's no need that Rey has famous parents. At the same time though, I'm not inclined to believe Ren - he was just parroting back at her the things that she already thought. But the flashbacks from TFA indicate that there's more to it; they left Jakku, they weren't buried in pauper's graves on it. Perhaps her parents came to realise her power with the force, heard what had happened at Luke's "academy" and sent her away for her protection?

I think overall what this sets up nicely for Episode nine is something that we haven't really seen before. There are no big or bad or calm or cool characters. Whether it was Palpatine or Vadar or the Jedi, every episode up to this one has had an authority figure, someone who is strong with the force, calm and collected and certain of their place on the dark or the light side.

Episode nine will have neither. Your main force-powered characters are both completely emotional and uncertain of their place. Unlike every other movie, there is no "final boss" to beat. Kylo Ren is undisciplined and inelegant. In any other episode, two Jedi (or two Sith) would have cleared that Throne room in seconds, not struggled with them and nearly lost.

He is presented as Rey's equal, not a terrifying superior, as Vadar was to Luke.

I think that'll bring a whole new chaotic edge to Episode nine, much closer to TESB than any of the others.

Tony EH

Derco wrote: »

Actually thinking of that scene, the way the Executor 'sinks' into the Death Star is another example of gravity in space in the OT

nix wrote: »

haha nah, they just got caught in the death stars artificial gravity

Or, when the bridge got kamikaze'd, the bloke at the controls hit the "down button" before he died.

No gravity involved.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Those lads are delighted that the luminaries responded but it’ll also just make them double down on this absolute bullshvt

It’s pathetic.

Don't let it get to you.

I agree with Johnson, it's an elaborate troll and people are going mad about it.

It's a laugh, nothing more.

Saruhashi

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Happy to see Johnson and the cast have reacted to the ‘no women’ cut with the respect, seriousness and critical analysis it deserves

Really? I thought you would have been all for "Star Wars : The Chauvinist Cut"?

What about the way it calls back to the classic all male adventure movies of the late 70s and early 80s?

What about how it subverts expectations in 2018 by having an all male, all white cast? You rarely see that coming out of Hollywood these days!

People go into Star Wars expecting a nice family friendly movie but with "The Last Jedi : De-Feminized Fanedit" you get a sexist, possibly even racist, film that aims some harsh criticisms at the direction of modern blockbusters.

I thought I'd see you defending this bold, brave, almost arthouse, version of The Last Jedi?

I heard if you watch it 7 or 8 times you'll see it's actually pretty great movie and all the misogyny makes a lot of sense... "from a certain point of view".

So much to unpack. Such a bold and unexpected direction.

seamus

Saruhashi wrote: »

"Star Wars : The Chauvinist Cut"?

Funny, I've just been reading about it, it's the most ridiculous and pathetic thing I've ever seen. Basically a "women: know your place" edit.

Which completely ignores the fact that Star Wars has been quite strongly feminist as a rule, especially for the time it was released. The rebellion/light side has virtually always had women at the top level; from Queen Amidala to Mon Mothma to General Organa.
And not airy-fairy, happy-clappy women either, episode IV introduced Leia as a badass from the start, arguably the toughest character of the 3 leads. And one who didn't just wilt at Solo's smouldering charm, but knew her own mind.

The few people applauding him for removing what they see as a "new" feminist streak in the movie, have clearly not watched any of the older ones.

Now, one could easily argue that there's a bit of a misandrist streak in the first two trilogies - all of the bad guys are men, from the Emperor to the Sith to the imperial officers to the stormtroopers, even down to the criminals on Tattooine, it's virtually all men.
But it would be fair to say that with the exception of the few female leaders in the alliance, that the rest of the alliance is also men. So that may be more of a casting issue than an anti-male one.

Saruhashi

Tony EH wrote: »

Don't let it get to you.

I agree with Johnson, it's an elaborate troll and people are going mad about it.

It's a laugh, nothing more.

I thought the same. It's pretty hilarious.

Considering this was probably made by one guy sitting in his room chopping up a bad quality CAM version of the movie with Chinese subtitles just for laughs it's kind of impressive that he is getting coverage from outlets like Time and the BBC.

Even more impressive is that they have managed to get a reaction from the actual stars of the actual movie!

Think of all the amazing Star Wars fan created content out there that never even gets any kind of recognition and this guy goes worldwide with this lazy effort.

People saying the creator of this is pathetic and not worth respect as they signal boost this fan edit to worldwide recognition. Brilliant.

Feeding the trolls, you are. Stop it, you must.

david75

To whoever recommended the Star Wars episode of the toys that made us on Netflix, thank you. It was a wonderful and fascinating watch

To anyone who has t seen it I really recommend it

Saruhashi

seamus wrote: »

Funny, I've just been reading about it, it's the most ridiculous and pathetic thing I've ever seen. Basically a "women: know your place" edit.

Which completely ignores the fact that Star Wars has been quite strongly feminist as a rule, especially for the time it was released. The rebellion/light side has virtually always had women at the top level; from Queen Amidala to Mon Mothma to General Organa.
And not airy-fairy, happy-clappy women either, episode IV introduced Leia as a badass from the start, arguably the toughest character of the 3 leads. And one who didn't just wilt at Solo's smouldering charm, but knew her own mind.

The few people applauding him for removing what they see as a "new" feminist streak in the movie, have clearly not watched any of the older ones.

Now, one could easily argue that there's a bit of a misandrist streak in the first two trilogies - all of the bad guys are men, from the Emperor to the Sith to the imperial officers to the stormtroopers, even down to the criminals on Tattooine, it's virtually all men.
But it would be fair to say that with the exception of the few female leaders in the alliance, that the rest of the alliance is also men. So that may be more of a casting issue than an anti-male one.

Sorry, I can't take it seriously. I'm not even sure it's supposed to be taken seriously.

The end credits literally say "Written and Directed by YOUR MOMMA".

I thought it was pretty funny that someone went ahead and made this fanedit and I think it's even more funny that people have run with the "angry MRAs" angle.

To me it's just a joke. If you think it was meant to be completely serious then, sure, it's ridiculous and pathetic.

I'm enjoying the fact that someone went this far (surely it wasn't that hard to just chop bits out of the movie once you have the files?) and enjoying the reactions from The Internet.

Sad Professor

I’m not a detractor of this film but if I was I would be pretty annoyed by this fan edit and the way it has been picked up by the filmmakers and the media. Serious or not, it adds to the false narrative that the backlash against TLJ is entirely motivated by sexism, making it more likely that Disney will disregard the negative fan reactions when developing future films. “TLJ did well at the box office, it got great reviews, the CinemaScore was great - all these haters on the internet must be bigots.” That’s not true, of course, but that’s how it looks after this fan edit. Given how much of the online debate has been a battle over the popular narrative surrounding the film, stuff like this just discredits the anti-TLJ crowd.

david75

The last Jedi has been completely pulled from Chinese cinemas after making only $31 million. Audiences find the star wars saga ‘impenetrable’. No surprises there, the OT was never released there and it’s culturally a polar opposite than they’re used to. But They have to be rethinking even releasing them over there, at this point.
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-chinese-theaters/

Saruhashi

Sad Professor wrote: »

I’m not a detractor of this film but if I was I would be pretty annoyed by this fan edit and the way it has been picked up by the filmmakers and the media. Serious or not, it adds to the false narrative that the backlash against TLJ is entirely motivated by sexism, making it more likely that Disney will disregard the negative fan reactions when developing future films. “TLJ did well at the box office, it got great reviews, the CinemaScore was great - all these haters on the internet must be bigots.” That’s not true, of course, but that’s how it looks after this fan edit. Given how much of the online debate has been a battle over the popular narrative surrounding the film, stuff like this just discredits the anti-TLJ crowd.

To be honest I am already over that.

From day one there was a narrative that this movie was hated by trolls and "MRAs" because it has "too many women and minorities".

Pretty much every outlet I visit for movie news or opinions had some variation of "bad people hate Star Wars and that's great".

Even outlets that do not normally cover movies had some kind of "angry fanboys hate the new Star Wars but that's OK cos fanboys are terrible" article.

If you didn't like the movie you are put into one of the categories.

1. - Alt-Right, MRA, Trump supporter. Basically you don't like the movie because you are a bad and stupid person.

2. - Nitpickers. You don't like the movie because it wasn't 100% perfect and you are a pedantic and stupid person.

3. - Fan Theory Losers. You had loads of theories about the upcoming movie and they were all wrong. You are an angry and stupid person.

I would say that several movies in the past couple of years have flirted with a marketing approach that is essentially "people who don't like this movie are either stupid nerds or evil sexists and racists" in an effort to almost shame the public into at least not criticizing their product.

With the new Star Wars especially it feels like many outlets are embracing this kind of approach and I am not sure to what extent Disney approves of that.

Industry critics are invited to a high profile event where they watch the film. They give the film glowing reviews. Audience reaction to the movie is not as positive. The outlets that published the reviews then proceed to publish attacks on the fans who dislike the film.

The "Alt-Right" stuff doesn't sit well with me because, as I understand it, they are legitimately bad people and it feels very much that this whole thing is being done to make people hesitate before speaking ill of the newest popular thing.

I'd prefer to see passionate fans arguing back and forth over the new Star Wars than see people cowed into silence because if you didn't like the movie then maybe you are one of those Alt-Right Nazis we've been hearing so much about.

Personally I though the "men only" edit is a pretty funny idea given the current climate. Even that has been absorbed into the "SEE people who hate the Last Jedi are just the worst" narrative and that kind of sucks.

A good response would have been to do a "women only" edit of the prequels and the OT.