Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

id disagree. It’s implied and then shown Leia has force ability in the OT. She just doesn’t get trained and isn’t interested in it.

Where?

david75 wrote: »

Ironically she has more to do and does more in TLJ than she does in any of the films arguably since ANH. She serves almost no purpose in ROTJ and her character in that was a totally different one than was established in the previous two. Suddenly a damsel in distress that needs rescuing where her character was never that before.

I see her character growing. By ROTJ she's a BETTER character than the one that appeared in 1977. In 'Star Wars', she's little more than a bitch. I've said it before, change her to a man and she'd be universally hated. She's snot nosed, insulting and superior.

If she'd had stayed that way, she wouldn't have become the character everybody likes. She mellows as the characters become friends and she falls for Solo. She ends up giving a shit about people, instead of wanting to simply order them around, because of her status.

Plus, there is no "damsel in distress" at all. Leia gets caught in Jabba's pallace, because she goes to rescue Han. It's a turn of events. She's put in the "slave" costume to be humiliated by Jabba, who is portrayed as a thoroughly vile creature, who meets his end at the hands of the woman he's humiliated.

In other words, she suffers and overcomes her situation. It's one of the events that makes her character memorable in 'Return of the Jedi'.

david75 wrote: »

Carrie always was unhappy with that but seems to have worked with Johnson to develop her and give her more of an important function in this new one. Which I think she’s great in by the way. She’s wasted in TFA. Just a vehicle to motivate Han. That’s all.

She wasn't enamoured with the gold bikini. But so what. She's actually wrong. It wouldn't be the first time an actor was wrong. Ford was wrong to want Solo killed off in the same film.

Frankly, both of them miss the bigger picture that George was painting for their characters.

As far as 'The Force Awakens' is concerned, one could say that every character is a waste in that film. They're the barest sketches of character, in the case of the newbies, and old fan catnip in the case of Fisher and Ford.

There isn't much progression in 'The Last Jedi' either.

david75 wrote: »

We also know now that she was more powerful than Luke and would have been Yodas pick for training as he knew she was more disciplined and focused and dedicated than Luke turned out to be. And she was always on the subs bench if Luke fell to the dark side. (There is another).
We can choose not to like it but Most powerful Force user of his day is her da, she gives birth to the most powerful force user in this time frame. And she’s Luke’s twin. So it’s a flawed argument to say she isn’t force capable and powerful.

Yoda says 'there is another' as a setup for the sister angle. He doesn't say that "there is another Jedi" in the making. It's implied, but not explicit. We still never actually see her do anything "Forcey" in the original films.

Plus, nobody has actually said "she isn’t force capable and powerful."

david75 wrote: »

But the saving herself in space is instinctual. There was no training to do that. It was a survival instinct. This has been confirmed by Johnson if it wasn’t apparent enough already on screen.

It could have and should have been done in another way.

Nobody's objecting to Leia showing a bit of Force, as it were. They object to woefully stupid scene that's ill concieved (thanks to Kennedy) and laughably executed. Anybody making that should have expected ridicule, eliminated it from the script and chose a diferent option.

FFS, nobody on the ship is even amazed at what happened. They don't even bat an eyelid. It's stupid on so many levels.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

A fan poster for Episode 9 that's so good I wish it was real.

It would be great if The First Order did actually win.

But that is NEVER going to happen.

Tony EH

Shakey_jake wrote: »

Nice poster but that title is awful!

Any more awful than 'Attack of the Clones'?

Or *shudder*, 'A New Hope'?

Anyway, it's a pure fantasy.

Sad Professor

Leia has Force ability. You want to how I know? Because Luke says she does:

LUKE
There's more. It won't be easy for you to hear it, but you must. If I
don't make it back, you're the only hope for the Alliance.

Leia is very disturbed by this. She moves away, as if to deny it.

LEIA
Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power I--I don't understand and
could never have.

LUKE
You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too. In time you'll learn to
use it as I have. The Force is strong in my family. My father has
it...I have it...and...my sister has it.

And because Vader's provocation of Luke in their final duel is based on the assumption that she has Force ability:

VADER
Sister! So...you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed
her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the dark side, then perhaps she will.

None of them - not Obi-wan, not Yoda, not Luke, not Vader - ever question whether she has Force ability or not. They assume it. This combined with the way she senses Luke in TESB is enough to convince me that she does have it.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

Leia has Force ability.

Nobody is saying she didn't/doesn't.

Sad Professor

Tony EH wrote: »

Nobody is saying she didn't/doesn't.

You said it earlier:

Tony EH wrote: »

Sometmes I wonder if people have actually seen the original films. In 'Star Wars', Leia is just an ordinary joe. There's no indication at all that she has any relation to the Force in any way.

In 'The Empire Strikes Back', it's Luke that communes with her. There's no light shed on whether she can use it.

And there's nothing at all in 'Return of the Jedi' to suggest that she can do anything with the Force either.

Some fans think that just because she's Luke's sister, that she must also be a Force user and some are praising her space walk because it validates that idea.

thegreengoblin

david75 wrote: »

Hector sorry for the delay.
Yep both are canon. Bloodline is about Leia in the new republic and set 7 years before TFA so Ben is off with Luke and Han is off doing his thing. But she gets her darkest secret exposed by a rival senator -who is in secret helping set up the first order. And once exposed has to leave the senate but she starts to build the resistance as nobody believes her that the first order are a thing coming to take over. It’s politics and intrigue done right and one of the best reads in the new canon.

The same author wrote Princess Leia of Alderaan. Basically young Leia and her finding out her parents are doing something in secret all the time and it turns out to be building the rebellion. This one is really really good as it’s her whole backstory and has loads of links to stuff in the prequels, rogue one the OT and even reaching forward into TLJ. We meet Holdo in this and she is a good friend of hers from this far back.

Both really really good reads at world building for the political set up in the galaxy but also giving you Leia at two stages of her life.


Avoid aftermath trilogy. Really really poor.

I second that. It had the seeds of a good yarn but never got off the ground and I found Chuck Wendig's style grating very early on. Bloodline is a great read, haven't got round to the second Leia book yet but it sounds good.

Derco

david75 wrote: »

Avoid aftermath trilogy. Really really poor.

Just started the last of those books. Will definitely check out Bloodlines after.

I see The Last Jedi novel is available to download on Kobo

david75

Derco wrote: »

Just started the last of those books. Will definitely check out Bloodlines after.

I see The Last Jedi novel is available to download on Kobo

Really??? It’s not due til march. I wonder has there been a slip up. Thanks for the heads up. And defrocked check out bloodline. Craps all over the aftermath books

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

You said it earlier:

But, it's true.

There is nothing at all in 'Return of the Jedi' to suggest that she can do anything with the Force either.

Are people actually reading the posts any more or what?

david75

It doesn’t mean she hasnt though. There’s nothing demonstrable in a new hope to suggest Luke has it either. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t.

Tony EH

That's not even the point.

Nobody is objecting to her using the Force.

They're saying that the way that it was shown in TLJ was dumb and laughable.

Sad Professor

Tony EH wrote: »

But, it's true.

There is nothing at all in 'Return of the Jedi' to suggest that she can do anything with the Force either.

Are people actually reading the posts any more or what?

Which is wrong. Luke clearly says she has Force ability and will discover it in time. That suggests she can do something with the Force.

Derco

david75 wrote: »

Really??? It’s not due til march. I wonder has there been a slip up. Thanks for the heads up. And defrocked check out bloodline. Craps all over the aftermath books

Oops my bad. It's available for pre-order sorry

david75

Derco wrote: »

Oops my bad. It's available for pre-order sorry

No worries the home release is around then too. Looking forward to reading the book.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

Which is wrong. Luke clearly says she has Force ability and will discover it in time. That suggests she can do something with the Force.

But she doesn't actually use or show it. That's my point.

There's also no reason to think that Luke and her haven't been training in the 30 or so years after ROTJ.

And no one has an issue with her using it in TLJ. It's the manner in which she uses it that's the problem.

david75

Force use isn’t always elegant:) hers was far more elegant than this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml81iUYKj_4

Sad Professor

Tony EH wrote: »

But she doesn't actually use or show it. That's my point.

There's also no reason to think that Luke and her haven't been training in the 30 or so years after ROTJ.

She doesn't explicitly use the Force, nor she does have to. Because everyone assumes she has the ability and will learn to use it if she needs to. Training would be nice, but nobody says it's essential. Quite the contrary:

LUKE: If I don't make it back, you're the only hope for the Alliance. [...] You have that power too. In time you'll learn to use it as I have.

"You'll learn to use it." He doesn't say "I'll teach you to use it". In fact, the whole reason for this conversation is that he reckons he might not be coming back. Before he goes he wants her to know that she's his sister, that she is powerful in the Force, and that if he doesn't come back she will need to learn to use it if the Alliance is to survive.

If training was essential then he probably should have given her a few lessons, but he seemed pretty confident that she would be okay. The Force isn't just magic tricks that require training. There's always been a spiritual dimension to it. In ANH, Obi-wan tells Luke to trust his feelings and let the Force flow through him.

BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?

BEN
Partially. But it also obeys your commands.

Bingo, two seconds later he's blocking laser bolts with a lightsaber while blindfolded. The controlling your actions part of the Force doesn't require training, just giving yourself over to it.

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

Hector sorry for the delay.
Yep both are canon. Bloodline is about Leia in the new republic and set 7 years before TFA so Ben is off with Luke and Han is off doing his thing. But she gets her darkest secret exposed by a rival senator -who is in secret helping set up the first order. And once exposed has to leave the senate but she starts to build the resistance as nobody believes her that the first order are a thing coming to take over. It’s politics and intrigue done right and one of the best reads in the new canon.

The same author wrote Princess Leia of Alderaan. Basically young Leia and her finding out her parents are doing something in secret all the time and it turns out to be building the rebellion. This one is really really good as it’s her whole backstory and has loads of links to stuff in the prequels, rogue one the OT and even reaching forward into TLJ. We meet Holdo in this and she is a good friend of hers from this far back.

Both really really good reads at world building for the political set up in the galaxy but also giving you Leia at two stages of her life.


Avoid aftermath trilogy. Really really poor.

Thanks , I might give Bloodline a read so, right now I am enjoying some old republic novels - just finished the Darth Bane trilogy (excellent - especially Books I and III) , am reading Revan now (very decent so far) and am looking forward to Deceived after ... Darth Malgus looks like a great character.

Might not be canon but until Disney make something that explicitly contradicts this - it's canon in my head

david75

Hector Savage wrote: »

Thanks , I might give Bloodline a read so, right now I am enjoying some old republic novels - just finished the Darth Bane trilogy (excellent - especially Books I and III) , am reading Revan now (very decent so far) and am looking forward to Deceived after ... Darth Malgus looks like a great character.

Might not be canon but until Disney make something that explicitly contradicts this - it's canon in my head

Must read them again. That’s just it. You’ll always have them. Doesn’t matter if it’s eu or legends. If they still work for you that’s all that matters.
If you like them there’s one new canon book that is along those lines. Lords of the sith. Vader and the emperor get attacked en route to a planet. Looooads of force power kick ass ensues. And it’s canon. Such a damn good book.

Andrew Beef

Leia clearly uses the Force when she senses that Luke is still alive post the destruction of the second Death Star (when Han says that he’s pretty sure that Luke wasn’t up there).

Sad Professor

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Leia clearly uses the Force when she senses that Luke is still alive post the destruction of the second Death Star (when Han says “I’m sure he wasn’t up there”).

Yeah, I forgot about this. It's pretty unambiguous as well unlike the Force connection at the end of TESB which was initiated by Luke.

david75

She doesn’t move any rocks therefore it doesn’t count. Apparently

Tony EH

It only counts if you want it to count.

When LUKE uses the force to telepathically connect to Leia in TESB, it's clearly HIM that's doing it. There's nothing to suggest that she has any active part.

Her "feeling" that Luke is grand in ROTJ is also rather tenuous, at best. Sure, if someone wants to say that's her "using" the Force, well alright. But, it's pretty flimsy.

The point still remains that the spacewalk in TLJ is still utterly absurd.

Peatys

david75 wrote: »

She doesn’t move any rocks therefore it doesn’t count. Apparently

Well Vader stands beside her and doesn't sense anything. When they are born, Luke has to be hidden, while Leya is in full sight, a royal and member of the senate, no hiding necessary.

Peatys

Peatys wrote: »

Well Vader stands beside her and doesn't sense anything. When they are born, Luke has to be hidden, while Leya is in full sight, a royal and member of the senate, no hiding necessary.

I should add, I've no problem with Leya using the force, but the execution of her Poppins bit was dreadful.

Andrew Beef

She also senses Kylo Ren flying his ship.

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

Must read them again. That’s just it. You’ll always have them. Doesn’t matter if it’s eu or legends. If they still work for you that’s all that matters.
If you like them there’s one new canon book that is along those lines. Lords of the sith. Vader and the emperor get attacked en route to a planet. Looooads of force power kick ass ensues. And it’s canon. Such a damn good book.

Nice ... its on the list , have you read Darth Plageuis ?
probably my fav EU novel.

Saruhashi

Hector Savage wrote: »

Thanks , I might give Bloodline a read so, right now I am enjoying some old republic novels - just finished the Darth Bane trilogy (excellent - especially Books I and III) , am reading Revan now (very decent so far) and am looking forward to Deceived after ... Darth Malgus looks like a great character.

Might not be canon but until Disney make something that explicitly contradicts this - it's canon in my head

I also like the Darth Bane books and the Old Republic books. Darth Plageuis is also very high quality, in my opinion.

There are a number of reasons why I think these all work better than the new Star Wars sequels and some of those are why I also think Rogue One is better than the sequels too.

First of all these stories don't have much impact on the Original Trilogy. They are set in the same universe and there are familiar elements but that is where the fan-service and meddling with existing characters ends.

Next the stories are pretty much self contained adventures. Most of them get up and running pretty quickly and most come to a satisfying conclusion. You could easily look at movies like Mad Max: Fury Road, John Wick, The Raid and even films like The Martian or Gravity and imagine Star Wars films that take a similar approach. Take a simple story and set it in the Star Wars universe. Drive the action forward quickly and concisely while keeping the Star Wars background and giving little pieces of lore once in a while.

THEN back this up with strong characters. Darth Bane and Darth Zannah. Revan and Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik. Aryn Leneer and Zeerid Korr and Darth Malgus. Plus a whole ton of other interesting supporting characters. Sure, most of these are just alternative takes on characters that we see in the OT and the Prequels but they allow us to explore aspects of Star Wars characters without jumping in and taking questionable directions with existing characters.

You got all the components there to make some amazing Star Wars movies and even if they do decide to put some mad stuff in there like a Jedi who survived being blown out into space then it doesn't necessarily have the same impact, for better or worse, as "so I guess Leia can fly now" and "so I guess Luke is... whatever... now".

Even Rian Johnson's supposed "subversions" would possibly be a lot more palatable if it wasn't at the expense of well established lore.

The big talk about "let the past die" is a load of nonsense because you could easily just set the movies in a time that isn't only a few decades after RotJ and then you don't even need to touch the past at all.

The only downside I can see is profits. The difference between having Han and Leia and Luke in the new Star Wars and not having them could be in the region of half a billion dollars.

I think that tying everything together by making people have connections that simply aren't necessary (like how Kylo Ren just HAD to be related to someone from the OT and it was such a big deal that Rey wasn't) is done because that's what the marketing department says will be most profitable. Yoda is back everyone! 'Member Yoda?

david75

Hector Savage wrote: »

Nice ... its on the list , have you read Darth Plageuis ?
probably my fav EU novel.

Oh man I loved that book. I wish they’d make it canon. It’s kinda tied to lords of the sith for me cos I read them back to back. I’m sure you love LOTS now. It’s a kick ass companion to the heaviness of Plageuis.