Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Falthyron

Sad Professor wrote: »

Like I said, sequels rehash moments from previous films. You'd be hard pressed to find a sequel that doesn't. Is T2 being nostalgic when it rehashes chase scenes and whole scenarios from the first film? No, it's a sequel. That's what sequels do. Provide more of the same only bigger.

You're acting like he re-did the scene shot-for-shot. He didn't. There was a throne room scene in ROTS as well. Similar lines are spoken, hands get chopped off, etc. Lucas established the idea that the trilogies would rhyme. JJ continued it. But you are complaining that Johnson (who is already in trouble for killing Snoke off an movie early and for not repeating the "I am your father" twist) shouldn't have had Rey looking out the window like Luke in ROTJ? I'm sorry, I don't get it.

Also the AT-ATs are not the same as the ones in TESB. They redesigned them, but yeah they are similar. JJ established this broadly similar design trend in TFA (X-Wings, Tie fighters, Star-destroyers, etc), so Johnson didn't have much choice but to follow it. They serve a function in the story, so I don't really care. The prequels were over-designed anyway.

Your point about sequels make sense, but I suppose the more you reference a predecessor, the more the sequel loses, what could be, a unique identity? For example: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers doesn't feature a scene that emulates one from Fellowship, unlike how TLJ features scenes very similar to ESB. However, The Fast and Furious films have almost become a complete blur into one big film in my mind, apart from one or two very iconic scenes. Fast and Furious is quite limited in scope; it has to feature cars, chases, etc. But, Star Wars doesn't need to be restricted by certain conventions, it can go anywhere.

Perhaps, I would have preferred less nods and less homages. So, I posited the idea that maybe they could have cut down on those similar scenes by playing them out differently. For me, Star Wars is huge. It can, literally, go anywhere, but to see something similar (again) when a film was touted as 'very different' was disappointing. When I wonder to myself, well then why did they choose to emulate previous scenes when there are many other ways of having things play out, I can't help but think it has to do with the need to tap into nostalgia. Perhaps there are other reasons, such as Star Wars always having been formulaic?

david75

Falthyron wrote: »

I appear to have touched a nerve. I didn't demand anything or expect you to accept anything. I simply argued my case, presented my evidence and (in the spirit of debate as is always the case on a forum) asked you as to whether or not you accept my point about why Rian could have chosen many other routes with Rey in Snoke's throne room. My entire post is interrogative, I didn't tell you to accept anything.

If you didn't accept my point then I hoped you would offer some reasons why there was absolutely no other way for Rian to do this scene except by forcing Rey to see the Resistance ships being destroyed.

My hypothetical scenes and questions are not offensive, nor do they come across dictating 'how it should be', from how I see it, anyway. But, if you are offended by me posing, what I believe to be, a fair question (particularly as I answered yours), then I apologise for how I asked it or the content therein.

Deadly. But everything you just said contradicts everything you’ve said in your previous posts.
There’s no point whatsoever in going here’s what should have happened/I know better. Which you’ve done consistently over the last few pages. Work from where we are.

You were arguing about an x wing being underwater is a cue to nostalgia. It wasn’t. At all. It was a tiny almost insignificant shot to move the story along as it relates to luke.

That level of nitpicking is redundant. There’s red lights on the lift around the emperors lift shaft. Oh but Snoke has a red curtain too! They’re definitely the OT off!

There’s way bigger and more glaring choices made in the last Jedi worthy of taking apart.

It’s also after 2am and why are we even bothering

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

Deadly. But everything you just said contradicts everything you’ve said in your previous posts.
There’s no point whatsoever in going here’s what should have happened/I know better. Which you’ve done consistently over the last few pages. Work from where we are.

I never said or implied: "I know better." I simply asked questions and probed ideas. I also posed the idea that nostalgia has a big part to play in TLJ and I would prefer it didn't have such an influence on how the story played out.

You were arguing about an x wing being underwater is a cue to nostalgia. It wasn’t. At all. It was a tiny almost insignificant shot to move the story along as it relates to luke.

The irony here is that you are now telling me how it is. I would argue differently, but that's what's great about forum discussions; everyone has an opinion.

There’s way bigger and more glaring choices made in the last Jedi worthy of taking apart.

Please do offer some.

Sad Professor

Falthyron wrote: »

Your point about sequels make sense, but I suppose the more you reference a predecessor, the more the sequel loses, what could be, a unique identity? For example: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers doesn't feature a scene that emulates one from Fellowship, like how TLJ features scenes very similar to ESB. However, The Fast and Furious films have almost become a complete blur into one big film in my mind, apart from one or two very iconic scenes. Fast and Furious is quite limited in scope; it has to feature cars, chases, etc. But, Star Wars doesn't need to be restricted by certain conventions, it can go anywhere.

Two Towers is not a conventional sequel and is not comparable to the SW films, which were written and filmed as standalone movies. That said, I actually think Jackson rehashes a lot of similar scenarios across all three LOTR films. Two Towers ends on a boringly similar note to FOTR, for example, which was not from the book.

Conventional sequels are nearly always similar to their predecessor in some way. They have to be to be recognised as belonging to the same universe and/or the same story. If the filmmaker takes liberties in one area (say tone), they might need to compensate elsewhere (say the production design). In interviews Denis Villeneuve has talked about how because he visually departed from the lighting of Blade Runner (was was much more expressionistic compared to the naturalism of the new film), he had make the music more similar (hence why his usual composer was replaced). It's all about getting the balance right.

Perhaps, I would have preferred less nods and less homages. So, I posited the idea that maybe they could have cut down on those similar scenes by playing them out differently. For me, Star Wars is huge. It can, literally, go anywhere, but to see something similar (again) when a film was touted as 'very different' was disappointing. When I wonder to myself, well then why did they choose to emulate previous scenes when there are many other ways of having things play out, I can't help but think it has to do with the need to tap into nostalgia. Perhaps there are other reasons, such as Star Wars always having been formulaic?

Most of the similar scenes do play out differently though. Even the throne room scene we are talking about had a different result from the one in ROTJ. Kylo replaces the Snoke/Emperor which Vader wanted but failed to do because he couldn't convince Luke to help him. Johnson is deliberately drawing parallels to both TESB and ROTJ, just as JJ did in TFA (Kylo kills his father rather than saves him) to show some of the different choices Kylo is making from both Luke and Vader.

Saruhashi

Falthyron wrote: »

I never said or implied: "I know better." I simply asked questions and probed ideas. I also posed the idea that nostalgia has a big part to play in TLJ and I would prefer it didn't have such an influence on how the story played out.

The irony here is that you are now telling me how it is. I would argue differently, but that's what's great about forum discussions; everyone has an opinion.

Please do offer some.

Falthyron, you just don't get it.

Because you didn't like TLJ, david75 just really wants you to STFU and go away.

David75 can't come out and say that directly though so you will have to endure a series of little passive aggressive comments against you. You goddamned mini dictator.

You'll NEVER be in charge of steering a multi billion dollar cultural icon onto the screen so why do you even bother giving your opinion?

Of course it's those OTHER Star Wars fans that are the bad ones, right?

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

Something I don’t get.

If these films are angering you to this point why keep talking about them?
That is a genuine enquiry. I have countless films I hate. I don’t spend any time ranting about them trying to prove why they’re crap. I don’t give them my time.

I don’t get being addicted to hating something and ranting about it at all.

Yeah, we get it.

The King of Star Wars has decreed that if we don't like the films them we should just stop talking about them.

How about you drop this approach and just let people express whatever opinions they want about Star Wars?

johnny_ultimate

Mod note: david75 and Saruhashi - please both cut it out with the passive aggressive posts. If you have an issue with a post's tone, report it.

david75

Thats unfair. I hate absolutely everyone equally. None more than others.

It’s been leaked that there’s a ten year time jump between TLJ and 9.
Same source saying Disney have effectively given up on Solo and it’s awful.
Could be bull. Could be true. Fun and games.

Saruhashi

Falthyron wrote: »

Do you accept that there are many, many different ways Snoke could have provoked Rey? Do you accept that there was no reason whatsoever to copy Jedi in this regard?

And if you accept that, then can you offer a reason as to why Rian chose to copy Jedi? For what reason was this decision made?

There are so many ways but the reason to copy Jedi was because it's a Star Wars movie and familiarity and call-backs are a major component (and the thing that sets the prequels and sequels apart from the OT).

I agree with you so much that the scenes between Rey and Snoke could have gone so many different ways but the movie wanted to say "hey audience! I bet you think you know how this is going to go because we had a very similar scene in that other star wars? Well hahaha GOTCHA! It went totally differently!"

For me it was one of a few occasions where this movie came WAY too close to breaking the fourth wall. For some people that's fine and for others that's a bit "off". It felt off to me.

I would argue, actually, that TLJ leaned heavily on nostalgia while trying to pretend that it totally isn't leaning on nostalgia. It is though.

It's kind of like if there was a new Die Hard movie and at the end John McClane says "yippie ki-yay, guy". Oh my gosh it totally upset our expectations cos we thought he was going to say motherf-!

That would still be a pretty direct dependence on nostalgia.

TLJ is very dependent on nostalgia it just swerves at the last moment and for some reason this is declared as some kind of genius move.

The film relies SO heavily on nostalgia feels in it's last 30 minutes or so that it's incredible that people think this is some kind of masterful new direction.

In the end, I accept that Rian Johnson probably couldn't win with this new movie. He tried something different and I don't think it really worked too well. I am sure that with time people will conclude that TLJ was a bit of a pointless mess.

In my opinion the biggest weakness in the new SW movies was the insistence that the original cast needed to return and that they needed to play supporting roles in such a way that the story had to accommodate them.

In my fan fiction I'd drop the original cast and just focus on Kylo Ren and Rey building up their powers but also have them flip-flop between the lightside and darkside. The supporting characters would remain mostly the same but I'd pad out the story of the First Order and the Resistance/Rebels. At least you wouldn't have to waste time asking "what are old han and leia and luke up to these days".

Of course my idea would also drop about 1 billion dollars from the box office takings so I don't think there was ever anyway we were not going to see the old folks appearing in these sequels.

The story had to suffer so that profits wouldn't.

JJ will probably give us a good episode 9 where Rey beats Kylo and The First Order and goes on to train loads of new Jedi and they all live happily ever after.

For 40 years. Then we'll see old lady Daisy Ridley as a run down crusty Jedi who refuses to train a mysteriously powerful young whippersnapper in Star Wars : The Force Reborn (2059).

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

Thats unfair. I hate absolutely everyone equally. None more than others.

It’s been leaked that there’s a ten year time jump between TLJ and 9.
Same source saying Disney have effectively given up on Solo and it’s awful.
Could be bull. Could be true. Fun and games.

I want to give Solo a chance but the fact that we are 4 months away and they haven't really even given us much in terms of marketing is telling me that they know it's going to be received poorly.

We got a Rogue One teaser on April 7th 2016, a full 8 months before the movie was out, and there was a lot of good marketing buzz around the film for those 8 months.

I'd look to the Super Bowl on February 4th as their first full trailer and if there is no Super Bowl trailer then I'd suggest that this movie will have very little invested in it's marketing campaign.

johnny_ultimate

Saruhashi wrote: »

I am sure that with time people will conclude that TLJ was a bit of a pointless mess.

With all due respect, Saruhashi, I think there’s a wee bit of dissonance in suggesting one minute to “let people express whatever opinions they want about Star Wars” and then the next suggest that people will come around to the ‘correct’ conclusion eventually

People genuinely like the film (I’m one - have watched it twice and engaged with plenty of the criticism around it and now only like it more). People genuinely dislike the film. There may be fanatics on either side of the spectrum, but one would hope they’re a minority. It’s really as simple as that, and don’t see any major reason why time will radically change the opinions of those who have already formed clear, genuine opinions on the film.

Saruhashi

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

With all due respect, Saruhashi, I think there’s a wee bit of dissonance in suggesting one minute to “let people express whatever opinions they want about Star Wars” and then the next suggest that people will come around to the ‘correct’ conclusion eventually

People genuinely like the film (I’m one - have watched it twice and engaged with plenty of the criticism around it and now only like it more). People genuinely dislike the film. There may be fanatics on either side of the spectrum, but one would hope they’re a minority. It’s really as simple as that, and don’t see any major reason why time will radically change the opinions of those who have already formed clear, genuine opinions on the film.

I never suggested it was the "correct" conclusion. That's your interpretation but not my intention.

Maybe I ought to have said "I think" instead of "i'm sure"?

In any case, I still think that once Episode 9 comes out, and this whole thing is wrapped up, people will see Episode 8 as a bit of a weird plot detour that was kind of messy in it's execution.

PhiloCypher

nix wrote: »

Well my impression is, the time frame between rogue one and ANH is a few days/weeks, because Leia's ship escapes to safety. So Vader capturing her at the start of ANH is the empire finally catching up to them / finding them and then Leia's acting all dumb, which is what most people who got caught in that situation would do

I think it ties together nice, i loved rogue one, its probably my favourite star wars movie, the action and humor is just spot on.. The only thing i hated about rogue one was the very last scene with CGI Leia, it was just far too cheesy :pac:

Yeh that's my take too. I imagine they took the scenic route on their way to tatooine in an effort to lose them and given that hyperspace tracking is first used in last jedi 40 years later, one assumes they must have lost track of the tantive IV at some point . All of which gives Leia plausible deniability when they finally catch up with her .

johnny_ultimate

Saruhashi wrote: »

I never suggested it was the "correct" conclusion. That's your interpretation but not my intention.

Maybe I ought to have said "I think" instead of "i'm sure"?

In any case, I still think that once Episode 9 comes out, and this whole thing is wrapped up, people will see Episode 8 as a bit of a weird plot detour that was kind of messy in it's execution.

Fair enough, if misinterpreted I apologise I do generally think it’s a tad unfair to suggest people will ‘come around’, but that’s a personal pet peeve!

As for Episode IX, I don’t see what it could do that would alter opinions on this one: this is a very strong piece of work on its own terms as far as I’d be concerned. I mean, consensus about Empire didn’t change just because *whisper it* ROTJ was a bit ****

david75

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Fair enough, if misinterpreted I apologise I do generally think it’s a tad unfair to suggest people will ‘come around’, but that’s a personal pet peeve!

As for Episode IX, I don’t see what it could do that would alter opinions on this one: this is a very strong piece of work on its own terms as far as I’d be concerned. I mean, consensus about Empire didn’t change just because *whisper it* ROTJ was a bit ****

Dunno. Few different books say that people came around on empire after ROTJ.
Is it a bit crap? Other than the ewoks and lurks unintelligible and unexplained plan to rescue Han it’s pretty solid no?



Same usual Oscar noms for TLJ. Sound editing, visual effects and score.

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

Same usual Oscar noms for TLJ. Sound editing, visual effects and score.

Can't see TLJ beating Blade Runner 2049, Dunkirk, and The Shape of Water in those categories.

I am guessing we won't get a release date for TLJ on Blu-ray until it has completed its run in cinemas. Hopefully, it will be out sometime in late March/early April. Looking forward to seeing the cut 30 minutes to see how it might have changed the film.

charlie_says

Overall I disliked TLJ far more than FA, which I wasn't too enamored with due to the poor final act.

There were just too many pointless parts to it and WTF moments for me. I do believe Rose to be the new Jar Jar character for the Asian market which I heard it did crap in. For me:

Space Leia why?

Gambling planet was an atrociously handled side plot.

Overall military tactics are seriously dumb all around and just flagrantly annoy anyone who actually likes the expanded Star Wars universe.

Finn fighting the silver trooper was slotted in for no reason that made any sense.

The jokes were badly timed especially the pretending to be on hold comedy flop.

Training part of the film on the island just never got it's hooks into anything substantive.

Several things I liked however, one was the rising tension of the fleeing fleet (even though it was a stupid idea it was handled well) and the carrier lightspeed suicide was impressive and I warmed a little to the scene with Snoke as I genuinely didn't know which way it would go and it was quite visually striking.

I would love to see a grown up Star Wars film based from the Timothy Zahn books. They actually have a good story.

david75

Falthyron wrote: »

Can't see TLJ beating Blade Runner 2049, Dunkirk, and The Shape of Water in those categories.

I am guessing we won't get a release date for TLJ on Blu-ray until it has completed its run in cinemas. Hopefully, it will be out sometime in late March/early April. Looking forward to seeing the cut 30 minutes to see how it might have changed the film.

I’m shocked BR. Didn’t get way way more technical nominations tbh.
March 27 for the last Jedi home release! The extras and Rians commentary are gonna be worth seeing for sure.

We probably still won’t have a Solo trailer at that point haha

david75

charlie_says wrote: »

Overall I disliked TLJ far more than FA, which I wasn't too enamored with due to the poor final act.

There were just too many pointless parts to it and WTF moments for me. I do believe Rose to be the new Jar Jar character for the Asian market which I heard it did crap in. For me:

Space Leia why?

Gambling planet was an atrociously handled side plot.

Overall military tactics are seriously dumb all around and just flagrantly annoy anyone who actually likes the expanded Star Wars universe.

Finn fighting the silver trooper was slotted in for no reason that made any sense.

The jokes were badly timed especially the pretending to be on hold comedy flop.

Training part of the film on the island just never got it's hooks into anything substantive.

Several things I liked however, one was the rising tension of the fleeing fleet (even though it was a stupid idea it was handled well) and the carrier lightspeed suicide was impressive and I warmed a little to the scene with Snoke as I genuinely didn't know which way it would go and it was quite visually striking.

I would love to see a grown up Star Wars film based from the Timothy Zahn books. They actually have a good story.

My pal has a cool theory.
Everything that happened in the film was actually just the kids at the end playing make believe and it’s their version of events and Disney are gonna start again in 9 with Rey and Luke and what should have/really happened.

david75

I’m nursing an idea

The island is the location of the first Jedi temple and the pool with the mosaic is a depiction of the first/prime Jedi. This we know.
What if Luke’s projection and the battle were sorta force beamed into the minds of every force sensitive person in the galaxy. And Luke was using the island which seems to be a kind of force amplifier, to do it and rekindle the Jedi and let all those force capable to come and get trained by Rey?

If there is a time jump and we think there will be, she could have a whole army of padewans by the start of 9.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

I’m nursing an idea

The island is the location of the first Jedi temple and the pool with the mosaic is a depiction of the first/prime Jedi. This we know.
What if Luke’s projection and the battle were sorta force beamed into the minds of every force sensitive person in the galaxy. And Luke was using the island which seems to be a kind of force amplifier, to do it and rekindle the Jedi and let all those force capable to come and get trained by Rey?

If there is a time jump and we think there will be, she could have a whole army of padewans by the start of 9.

She hasn't even had a single day's training herself.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

She hasn't even had a single day's training herself.

You’re forgetting she’s super Mary Sue, Tony
But to your point she has the original Jedi texts and / or knows everything she needs to be able to teach and presumably has a teacher herself in force ghost form via luke or possibly obi wan.

Just an idea. They’re going to have to give her some element of back up if Kylo is going to surrounded by the knights of ren who’s are safely assumed to be force users also.

The ten year time jump could be the thing here, if it’s true

david75

Or maybe she teaches in a while new way free of dogma and rules? I dunno

Vladimir Poontang

I love the way everything is handed to Rey

- Can immediately pilot the Millenium Falcon better than anyone with no experience

- Can handle a lightsaber with no experience (a staff is not the same)

- Can use Force abilities expertly with no experience

- Can teach a new genration of force users despite never having even been a student herself, received no training etc etc

There's no struggle, no journey, nothing. Everything handed to her on a plate.

She's a nothing character and boring as hell.

Keplar240B

Hans shot first

nix

I'm gonna read a coupla of kung fu books and open a dojo....

Andrew Beef

Jesus Christ...

Rey was a scavenger on Jakku a few days ago...now she might be training Jedi?!

And it is only a matter of days ago...what are Episodes VII and VIII set over, a month max?!

david75

No pleasing some people

The other idea is that the spirit of Anakin / Vader was split and has reincarnated as Rey and kylo.
He was the one to bring balance to the force. Rey and kylo are the balance embodied in this trilogy.
That would scuttle all above complaints pretty sharply.

nix

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Jesus Christ...

Rey was a scavenger on Jakku a few days ago...now she might be training Jedi?!

And it is only a matter of days ago...what are Episodes VII and VIII set over, a month max?!

a bank holiday weekend

This Fat Girl Runs

On a side note; I bought and built the Lego Kylo Ren Command Shuttle today. Sexiest spaceship I've ever laid eyes on and I just had to have it! It looks awesome!! I'll get some photos of it tomorrow in day light.

I also picked up Rogue One on DVD which I'll watch sometime this week. I haven't seen it yet. :P