Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

charlie_says

Also I forgot to mention in my rant above the stupid bit with Yoda burning the books and Luke throwing the light saber over his shoulder.

FFS

david75

charlie_says wrote: »

Also I forgot to mention in my rant above the stupid bit with Yoda burning the books and Luke throwing the light saber over his shoulder.

FFS

Hey now. We got Yoda. And Rey has the books on the falcon that’s why he zapped the tree. And to snap luke out of it.

The lightsaber over the shoulder is pretty much unforgivable. With you on that. It explains where he is. Peaceful non engagement. Exactly what he did last time we saw him.
He throws his saber away against the emperor and Vader in ROTJ.

Just wish they’d done it any other way.

Sad Professor

Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder was when I knew I was going to love the film. That and Luke's subsequent behaviour reminded me of Toshiro Mifune’s character in Seven Samurai, who is a drunken clown of a samurai, which was the direction I predicted Johnson might go in.

I posted this back in April:

Sad Professor wrote: »

I think Luke is just despondent when Rey finds him. After what happened with Kylo Ben, he decided he had done more harm than good, which is the easiest explanation for why he sat out TFA. I expect him to be in pretty bad shape. Picture a washed up old samurai, maybe even a drunk. The opposite in every way to the older, wiser Han Solo in TFA. So when Rey turns up, Luke is indifferent to her plight and tells her to go away and that the Jedi are over and will end when he dies. No plan, no nothing, just a broken old man. But... our protagonist Rey convinces him to train her.

Lucas originally wanted Mifune to play Obi-wan in ANH, so it was cool to see Johnson come back around to that take on an Obi-wan figure. I kinda wish Johnson had the nerve the go all the way with it and have Luke getting drunk etc, but at least we got the milking scene and Rey's reaction.

david75

Sad Professor wrote: »

Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder was when I knew I was going to love the film. That and Luke's subsequent behaviour reminded me of Toshiro Mifune’s character in Seven Samurai, who is a drunken clown of a samurai, which was the direction I predicted Johnson might go in.

I posted this back in April:



Lucas originally wanted Mifune to play Obi-wan in ANH, so it was cool to see Johnson come back around to that take on an Obi-wan figure. I kinda wish Johnson had the nerve the go all the way with it and have Luke getting drunk etc, but at least we got the the milking scene and Rey's reaction.

You kinda might get your wish. The big deleted scene in the home release is the third lesson. And it was cut because he pushes her too hard and comes across as too much of a bollex and they have a big emotional standoff.

But I remember you posting this. Fair play on your foresight. Who knew Johnson was going to be sticking to Lucas’ vision albeit at a remove.

david75

https://instagram.com/p/BeT7xpilKiu/

Sonics2k

I'm really baffled by people complaining about Luke running away when shít hits the fan when the Kylo and the death of the others.

The Jedi have a long and storied history of running away when they lose.

david75

TLJ novelisation sounds like it’s gonna be deadly!!

Few quick shots of deleted scenes here!!

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/956255289191223296

.ak

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Fair enough, if misinterpreted I apologise I do generally think it’s a tad unfair to suggest people will ‘come around’, but that’s a personal pet peeve!

As for Episode IX, I don’t see what it could do that would alter opinions on this one: this is a very strong piece of work on its own terms as far as I’d be concerned. I mean, consensus about Empire didn’t change just because *whisper it* ROTJ was a bit ****

Tony EH

/\

A picture of James Franco looking at an Ewok.

david75

He’s a fvckin muppet. Cannot stand him.

david75

Project 4K77 is still aiming for a January 29th finish date for their 4K restoration of the unaltered original Star Wars. Kinda excited for this


http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/page/Project-4K77

Saruhashi

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

I love the way everything is handed to Rey

- Can immediately pilot the Millenium Falcon better than anyone with no experience

- Can handle a lightsaber with no experience (a staff is not the same)

- Can use Force abilities expertly with no experience

- Can teach a new genration of force users despite never having even been a student herself, received no training etc etc

There's no struggle, no journey, nothing. Everything handed to her on a plate.

She's a nothing character and boring as hell.

Would people be happier if she had "lost" the fight with Kylo Ren in TFA?

I think even just a simple change to the ending would have negated the "Mary Sue" argument.

I'm talking about even keeping the fact that she is the one who gets Anakins lightsaber but when the start fighting Kylo Ren just beats her as easily as he beat Finn and is going to kill her before the ground splits and separates them.

It puts Rey in the position of being a plucky upstart who put up a brave fight but she wasn't strong enough yet. It still allows Snoke to berate Kylo Ren in TLJ because he didn't kill either Finn or Rey despite his power, maybe he is still leaning towards the lightside.

Rey is like the Hulk Hogan of Star Wars.

She is a crowd-pleaser and the people want to see her win but it comes at the expense of a strong story.

Kylo Ren is supposed to be the new monster heel in the Star Wars universe but we only have 3 movies to make it work. It makes no sense at all to have him be squashed in his first encounter with the main babyface character.

Even just a couple of small changes would have built up their rivalry for episode 8 and then you finish it off in episode 9.

As it stands, I feel like the credits will roll on episode 9 and you've got a three part story where the main villain never gets even close to a "win" and the main hero just hits the ground running and blows through every obstacle.

The ending of TFA isn't a re-hash of A New Hope, it's a re-hash of Wrestlemania 9.

(Lads, I'm just joking... kind of)

Tony EH

Saruhashi wrote: »

Would people be happier if she had "lost" the fight with Kylo Ren in TFA?

There should have been no "wake up one morning and do jedi shit" in TFA. Or give her some sort of history with it. At least show her having an interest in such things and trying them out in her spare time and failing in her "at home in the arse of an AT AT" scene. There should be no mind tricks get outta jail scene, either - that's one of the dumbest things I seen anyone do in a Star Wars film. And, yes she should have given Kylo Ren a good scrap at the end but was beaten. Kylo then realises that she's strong with the Force, but wild, untrained - this should be emphasised - and that he can train her to use the powers that she's always known she had. At that point, there should several moments of hesitation to tease the audience...will she, won't she - have her look like she might think that's a good idea...then the chasm opens on the Star Killer base and the two of them are separated. The rest of the film plays out as it (except Chewie gets the hug and not some random girl Leia just met a couple of hours before). :pac:

Saruhashi wrote: »

As it stands, I feel like the credits will roll on episode 9 and you've got a three part story where the main villain never gets even close to a "win" and the main hero just hits the ground running and blows through every obstacle.

Rey is the equivalent of one of those fantasy RPG video game characters who has had all their stats increased to 100 by a cheating player.

david75

Did we miss the point? The Force awoke in Rey to counter Kylos power.
It’s kinda the main story of the films. She’s the yin to his yang.
It’s even depicted finally when they’re both trying to force grab the lightsaber and it breaks in half.

Penn

david75 wrote: »

Did we miss the point? The Force awoke in Rey to counter Kylos power.
It’s kinda the main story of the films. She’s the yin to his yang.
It’s even depicted finally when they’re both trying to force grab the lightsaber and it breaks in half.

"Darkness rises... and light to meet it...", plus Luke's lesson about how the Force is the balance between everything. It's a huge core element of the entire film.

Sad Professor

Rey spent most of that first fight with Kylo getting her ass whipped. It's not until the end when she "trusts the Force" that the tide turns in her favour. If you can use the Force to block laser bolts while blindfolded or fire at precise locations without a targeting scanners, then you can use it to parry and block with a lightsaber.

The idea that being a Jedi requires extensive training comes from the prequels. The theory that Luke received more training off-screen is a fan-**** attempt to make Luke's relative lack of training in the OT consistent with the prequels.

As I posted earlier:

Sad Professor wrote: »

The Force isn't just magic tricks that require training. There's always been a spiritual dimension to it. In ANH, Obi-wan tells Luke to trust his feelings and let the Force flow through him.

BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?

BEN
Partially. But it also obeys your commands.

Bingo, two seconds later he's blocking laser bolts with a lightsaber while blindfolded. The controlling your actions part of the Force doesn't require training, just giving yourself over to it.

Saruhashi

Sad Professor wrote: »

Rey spent most of that first fight with Kylo getting her ass whipped. It's not until the end when she "trusts the Force" that the tide turns in her favour. If you can use the Force to block laser bolts while blindfolded or fire at precise locations without a targeting scanners, then you can use it to parry and block with a lightsaber.

The idea that being a Jedi requires extensive training comes from the prequels. The theory that Luke received more training off-screen is a fan-**** attempt to make Luke's relative lack of training in the OT consistent with the prequels.

As I posted earlier:

I'm not bothered about Hillary's emails what was in the OT.

Taking the OT and prequels completely out of the equation I still think it's a bit of poor storytelling to have her manage to achieve too much in the first movie of the new trilogy.

Remember here that going into episode 7 we already know this is going to be a 3 part story. Some movies that are written as one off stories may have the good guys escalate quickly to hero status due to time constraints. No need for that here.

We know she is the hero and he is the villain so we know that by the end of 3 movies she will emerge victorious. The interesting story is how they will get there.

Having her grab the lightsaber and beat him soundly in the very first episode is not, in my opinion, the best way to begin. Then they really double down on that in the second installment.

So we are heading into the 3rd and final part and it's a bit too late to try and shoehorn Rey's struggle into the story.

Even the "dark rises and the light rises to meet it" thing is such a cheap explanation.

So Kylo Ren seems to have been through some kind of training at Luke's "Jedi School" and he's apparently working hard at being Snoke's apprentice but they've written Rey's character as almost not needing to even try because the stronger Kylo becomes the stronger she automatically becomes.

I'm suggesting that giving Kylo Ren the "win" in episode 7 or 8 builds his legitimacy as a threat and sets up a strong finish.

Turning Hux into a bit of a comedy character also screws with the legitimacy of The First Order despite the fact they have almost destroyed The Resistance.

The 2 films are very strange in that sense. The bad guys are bad but they are also a bit insecure and incompetent and this really reduces their legitimacy as bad guys.

Once you add the unassailable hero into that mix I feel like the overall story suffers quite badly.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

Did we miss the point? The Force awoke in Rey to counter Kylos power.
It’s kinda the main story of the films. She’s the yin to his yang.
It’s even depicted finally when they’re both trying to force grab the lightsaber and it breaks in half.

I didn't miss the point. I just think it's kind of a boring concept.

As Kylo Ren gets stronger, Rey gets stronger. I get it.

It kind of removes a lot of the potential tension and rivalry between them though.

It's not like Rey has to struggle to keep up with Kylo Ren. Like if she doesn't train then he will have the upper hand and will win so she needs to work so hard just to hang in there.

Instead it's the case that no matter how strong he gets she is just equally as strong due to The Force.

Usually it would be the villain who gets that kind of "cheap" path to power. The bad guy is born into these incredible powers but the hero needs to work their ass off to overcome all the obstacles.

It's almost reversed here.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Did we miss the point? The Force awoke in Rey to counter Kylos power.
It’s kinda the main story of the films. She’s the yin to his yang.
It’s even depicted finally when they’re both trying to force grab the lightsaber and it breaks in half.

Don't think anyone "missed" the point. It's just very poor in concept and execution.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

The theory that Luke received more training off-screen is a fan-**** attempt to make Luke's relative lack of training in the OT consistent with the prequels.

Yes, but it still retains a certain logic.

There's three years between 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back'. That allows room for the theory (fan **** or not) to breathe. He could have been studying anything in that time.

Rey thinks the Luke Skywalker and the Jedi were a myth in the morning and was doing mind tricks by the afternoon.

That's even worse fan ****.

Sad Professor

Saruhashi wrote: »

I'm not bothered about Hillary's emails what was in the OT.

Taking the OT and prequels completely out of the equation I still think it's a bit of poor storytelling to have her manage to achieve too much in the first movie of the new trilogy.

Remember here that going into episode 7 we already know this is going to be a 3 part story. Some movies that are written as one off stories may have the good guys escalate quickly to hero status due to time constraints. No need for that here.

We know she is the hero and he is the villain so we know that by the end of 3 movies she will emerge victorious. The interesting story is how they will get there.

Having her grab the lightsaber and beat him soundly in the very first episode is not, in my opinion, the best way to begin. Then they really double down on that in the second installment.

So we are heading into the 3rd and final part and it's a bit too late to try and shoehorn Rey's struggle into the story.

Even the "dark rises and the light rises to meet it" thing is such a cheap explanation.

So Kylo Ren seems to have been through some kind of training at Luke's "Jedi School" and he's apparently working hard at being Snoke's apprentice but they've written Rey's character as almost not needing to even try because the stronger Kylo becomes the stronger she automatically becomes.

I'm suggesting that giving Kylo Ren the "win" in episode 7 or 8 builds his legitimacy as a threat and sets up a strong finish.

Turning Hux into a bit of a comedy character also screws with the legitimacy of The First Order despite the fact they have almost destroyed The Resistance.

The 2 films are very strange in that sense. The bad guys are bad but they are also a bit insecure and incompetent and this really reduces their legitimacy as bad guys.

Once you add the unassailable hero into that mix I feel like the overall story suffers quite badly.

You say take the OT out of the equation, but you are clearly using Luke's journey in the OT as the template for how you think Rey's arc in this trilogy should play out. They are different characters with different journeys. Maybe we're not heading toward a conventional final confrontation in which Rey beats Kylo. Personally I'll be disappointed if JJ just re-hashes ROTJ. And given that both Kylo and Rey seem evenly matched in TLJ, I don't think such a outcome will be possible. As David said, there seems to be a yin and the yang-type balance to their relationship, which is quite different from the son versus the father dynamic in the OT.

Kylo and Rey are basically the prince and the princess of this story. I figure either they destroy each other or they join forces. Either way I don't think it's about Rey becoming powerful enough to beat him.

Sad Professor

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes, but it still retains a certain logic.

There's three years between 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back'. That allows room for the theory (fan **** or not) to breathe. He could have been studying anything in that time.

Rey thinks the Luke Skywalker and the Jedi were a myth in the morning and was doing mind tricks by the afternoon.

That's even worse fan ****.

My point was that the problem of training was created by the prequels. Nobody had a problem with Luke's crash course in Jedi training in the OT until TPM came out. They then came up will silly theories about ghost Obi-wan training Luke, time moving slower on Dagobah or the Millennium Falcon taking years to get to Cloud City to explain a problem that didn't exist before.

Conall Cernach

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes, but it still retains a certain logic.

There's three years between 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back'. That allows room for the theory (fan **** or not) to breathe. He could have been studying anything in that time.

Rey thinks the Luke Skywalker and the Jedi were a myth in the morning and was doing mind tricks by the afternoon.

That's even worse fan ****.

I, and I'm sure many others, had hoped that Rey's abilities in TFA were somehow related to her mysterious past. That perhaps she had been a padawan who had escaped the Knights of Ren or something similar only for Luke to use the Force to cloud/wipe her memory to keep her safe.

Now with TLJ that past is no longer so mysterious. She's just great because she is great. Which makes her a bit cheap. It also amounts to a massive coincidence that the next great hope for the Jedi just happens to be living on a planet where the Resistance and New Order converge in their quest to find Luke Skywalker. She also happens to live in the same settlement where the Millennium Falcon ends up.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

My point was that the problem of training was created by the prequels.

I agree. It's one of the stupidest things about the prequels. That Padawan nonsense is embarrassing. But the "training" idea itself isn't that terrible. The concept of a teacher showing you control is fine.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Nobody had a problem with Luke's crash course in Jedi training in the OT until TPM came out.

That's, largely, because he wasn't instant Jedi. He manages to deflect a couple of laser bolts from a machine, but is pretty much close to getting fucked up all the way through the film. We can assume he's been swotting up on all things Jedi in between 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back'.

Sad Professor wrote: »

They then came up will silly theories about ghost Obi-wan training Luke, time moving slower on Dagobah or the Millennium Falcon taking years to get to Cloud City to explain a problem that didn't exist before.

There's tons of silly fan theories for Luke. There's tons of excuses for Rey. However, the flow of the story is simply better for Luke. There's time allowed for him to grow in the movies.

Rey's story, OTOH, is just ridiculous, no matter how it's cut. It's poorly written and it could easily have been so much better, if the writers had simply smoke tested their ideas. Simple tweaks were all that were needed.

Sad Professor

Tony EH wrote: »

Rey's story, OTOH, is just ridiculous, no matter how it's cut. It's poorly written and it could easily have been so much better, if the writers had simply smoke tested their ideas. Simple tweaks were all that were needed.

You should definitely write your own fan fiction version of this trilogy, Tony. I'm sure we'd all read it.

david75

As has been pointed out in the for and against of Rey, she clearly doesn’t have her story herself yet. It’s something she hides from in TFA until the force vision and the truth denied to her in TLJ, meaning the cave vision thing. With my cynical hat on I’m betting JJ walks back and gives us reasons for her powers and her parents or Info about them in 9.

It boils my piss no end that Luke gets a complete pass for his sudden abilities the moment he hears the words ‘the force’ yet Reys raked over coals for the exactly the same thing.

But let’s not get on the MaRey Sue Go-Round again.

Tony EH

Conall Cernach wrote: »

I, and I'm sure many others, had hoped that Rey's abilities in TFA were somehow related to her mysterious past. That perhaps she had been a padawan who had escaped the Knights of Ren or something similar only for Luke to use the Force to cloud/wipe her memory to keep her safe.

That may have helped in some way, but then you have the problem with small universe again and everyone being related to/knowing each other.

I think it is actually better that she's a nobody.

Where the character falls flat is that there's no learning involved for her...at all. She just knows stuff as required by the "plot".

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Now with TLJ that past is no longer so mysterious. She's just great because she is great. Which makes her a bit cheap. It also amounts to a massive coincidence that the next great hope for the Jedi just happens to be living on a planet where the Resistance and New Order converge in their quest to find Luke Skywalker. She also happens to live in the same settlement where the Millennium Falcon ends up.

There's way too much "just because..." happening alright.

Tony EH

Sad Professor wrote: »

You should definitely write your own fan fiction version of this trilogy, Tony. I'm sure we'd all read it.

I'm writing it right now!!! It's gonna blow your mind.

Actually, I spend too much time on this nonsense already. Damn 'Rogue One' for reactivating my Ster Warz mojo. :mad:

Seriously, though, it would probably be no worse than the fan fiction we're seeing on the screen anyway.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm writing it right now!!! It's gonna blow your mind.

Actually, I spend too much time on this nonsense already. Damn 'Rogue One' for reactivating my Ster Warz mojo. :mad:

Seriously, though, it would probably be no worse than the fan fiction we're seeing on the screen anyway.

I really wanna read that now
Be cool to read ideas from people who weren’t into this one. Maybe Lucasfilm will do those kindsa focus groups

Sad Professor

Re: the abstract visual palette in the throne room scene, johnny_ultimate cited Tokyo Drifter as a possible influence earlier in the thread, but according to Johnson in the SlashFilm podcast the main inspiration was an Anthony Minghella directed performance of Madama Butterfly.