Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

tigger123

Saruhashi wrote: »

There is the other side of the coin here too.

Fans who will do anything to defend the franchise from criticism. Also as if they think they own it.

TFA was a rehash and I really liked it.

TLJ went in a different direction and I didn't like it.

I'm not contradicting myself there at all.

You're essentially saying that the fandom are hypocrites but that's kind of insulting to individual fans with individual opinions.

From my point of view I went into TLJ knowing it had great review scores but I spent much of the movie thinking "this movie is terrible" and spent the few days after the movie convinced that I must have just missed something.

Once I started to hear from other folks though I saw that many people felt the same way as me.

Then there were all the articles defending the movie from angry, or toxic, fans.

I agree that some fans have an inflated sense of entitlement and they have no right to feel that the Star Wars franchise owes them something.

You have other fans who will gladly attack people who didn't like the movie. Is that a bad aspect of fandom that you are willing to ignore?

I'm not saying that fandom are hypocrites and I recognise that it's a diverse spectrum of opinions. But the point I'm making is that Star Wars is such a beloved part of pop culture that any attempt to reimagine it, or further it, or adapt it is instantly going to be met with criticism from some fans. They feel that it's somehow theirs and it shouldn't move from their own interpretation of it.

Just look at the Solo thread. It's full of negativity for a movie that doesn't even exist yet. People are primed and expecting it to be sh*t, and it's for the same reason IMO, ie, I have my own relationship with that character (Han Solo) and I don't want that changed. And that's where the sense of entitlement comes into it; some fans think it's theirs.

I've no real opinion in fans that will defend the movies no matter what, but they're pretty rare tbh.

I'm itching to watch TLJ again. And I do wonder where it's gonna go in episode IX. I don't think they've left a lot of room. But we'll have to wait and see.

Tony EH

Falthyron wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for another mass... I mean: is there anything to be said for this new trilogy simply being a soft reboot of the original trilogy? I am not trying to wind people up, but if you spent four billion on a franchise you will want a return pretty quickly. Star Wars is iconic and a rich well of potential with a huge fan-base. You know most of them pretty much disliked the prequel trilogy, but they loved the original trilogy. Why not just give more of the same? Financially speaking its probably the safest bet. Sure, you could go and make a 'new' trilogy, but what if it doesn't work? Where do you go after the first one is made and disappoints fans? They may not see the second and third installments. All of a sudden, chances of recuperating your costs are diminishing.

Obviously TFA fits the bill of being a soft reboot more than TLJ, but there are similarities between TLJ and ROTJ and ESB. There are similar tropes even if the outcome changes. For example:

Reluctant teacher of the main hero.
Empire in chase of the Rebellion.
Revelation as to who the main hero is.
Large battle showing Rebel inferiority.
Heroes go on separate quests.
The main enemy is revealed setting up the final episode.

Those six points apply to both ESB and TLJ.

Perhaps we can't make a call on whether or not this trilogy is simply a soft reboot of the old one until Episode IX is released, but there is no denying that the argument could be made. For all of Lucas' mistakes in the prequels, at least they felt and looked very different to their predecessors. Something I am really interested in seeing is: if Episode IX is a damp squib/another soft reboot or just a bit of a disaster, how long until we get a 'bring back George Lucas for the next Star Wars' petition?

Well, 'The Force Awakens' was absolutely a soft reboot of 'Star Wars'. I don't think there's anyone left who'll argue against that any more. However, over all, while there are some similarities, 'The Last Jedi' is it's own film, relatively speaking. It's definitely disappointing that Hoth 2.0 appears and AT-AT 2.0 is there as well. But, by and large, it wasn't a retread like its former episode.

The bigger problems this trilogy has is the lack of care for the complete story in other terms. While it's a bit tiresome to see familiar beats, it's even more disappointing to see 'The Last Jedi' create more questions along the lines of why did so and so do that? Or why does that happen, when it screws other previous events up? For example, Yoda torches a tree with lightening. That's a MAJOR reinvention of what Force ghosts are capable of, in as much as if he can do that, why can't he just appear beside Kylo and zap the fucker. Job done. Or even, if Yoda can appear to Luke, why not just appear to Leia and tell her where Luke is?

Yoda - "Leia, know me you do not, but tell you where Luke is, I can."

Leia - "What? Who the fuck are you and why are you talking like that?

There's so much in this trilogy that just bare up to any further thinking...at all, because it's all been so sloppily written. And that's probably the most disappointing thing about how this trilogy is playing out.

david75

Relikk wrote: »

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my point of view, this is just how I feel about the movies.

The Force Awakens, for me, is a better Star Wars movie. It oozes Star Wars, the look, the feel, the characters, the humour is in the right places if you compare it to the OT and even the prequels (to a lesser extent).

The Last Jedi has the look and feel, but the humour and the characters (Rey and Kylo aside) especially with regard to Luke... I still don't know how I really feel about the film. I hated sitting there watching it and saying to myself "What the f*ck is this sh*t?" far too many times than I would have liked. I know that I'll never like a lot of things in it because they were so glaring the first time. They'll always bother me.

I can't forgive what they did to Luke. It's not Luke, and I'll never be convinced that the Luke we know from every movie he's in, even TFA, that for one second he'd want to murder his nephew, or be unwilling to help the rest of his family by being a part of the Resistance, just to throw everything away, cut himself off in seclusion to die. Even throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder, I genuinely felt a little insulted having to wait from the end of TFA, to see that? F*ck that.

Yeah with you on all that. TFA is definitely more Star Wars than we could have even imagined. It’s eminently rewatchable and consistently enjoyable.
Luke...I shouted ‘what????’ In the cinema on my first screening when he throws the saber. Felt exactly the same. Insulted. It undermines TFA s ending completely. But subsequent viewings ahoy. I came around on it.

Time will tell on TLJ I guess.

david75

Was kinda weird that few people noticed this.

david75

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

Apologies if off topic but some of you might be interested in this:


https://twitter.com/3arenadublin/status/957920546704027648

Jaysis.
€85 a ticket????

pixelburp

david75 wrote: »

Jaysis.
€85 a ticket????

Yowsers. Unless I'm mistaken, that's the same series of live soundtrack concerts the RTÉ orchestra have been running for a while; usually they've been in the Grand Canal (Bord Gais) Theatre and the tickets a LOT more affordable. Saw Gladiator, Raiders of the Lost Ark & a couple of others. That's a fairly cynical move if they're 85 a pop...

david75

If it was John Williams conducting I’d happily pay it!
He plays the Hollywood bowl in LA quite often and tickets aren’t all that much.

Wasn’t too pushed on it given the point is so vast. If this was happening in the BGE I’d have gone.

€85 is taking the mickey.

Falthyron

I saw Hans Zimmer twice in the 3Arena and was pleasantly surprised by the sound and performance of a 70+ orchestra. I don't think Star Wars: A New Hope will disappoint in terms of the experience, but €85 is too much. It is a two hour film that almost everyone has already seen. Yes, the live music will be special, but not €85 levels of special.

I agree with David. If John Williams was conducting then I would probably go. Or if the music was restricted to only A New Hope, but rather all of the music across the eight films, then I would definitely be attending. Williams is currently in Disney-induced carbonite while they wait for Episode IX to have reached a certain stage in production before thawing him out. Not a hope he will be doing any sort of a world tour, unfortunately.

david75

He keeps insanely busy for a man of his age. 86 I think?
He’s doing the Ready player one score and another one.

51 Oscar nominations and somehow only 5 wins.
He also beat himself at the Oscars winning for a new hope score which was up against his Close encounters score.

He’s the master though. Would love to see him live. He does music from all his films.

david75

This piece will strike some as a hot take and totally unreasonable, but this has been an ongoing opinion since Carrie Fisher's passing: http://fangirlblog.com/2018/01/leia-at-risk-revisited-the-stakes-after-the-last-jedi/

david75

Why are you here?

Who are you?



This is my favourite scene in this whole film I think

Wedwood

At one of last year's conventions, George Lucas reminded people that he designed Star Wars for 12 year olds.

Now picture millions of 30 - 50 year old adults around the world furiously debating the horror of Rian Johnson not giving them 'their Luke' in this movie. And in the next room their kids are sitting on the floor playing with their Last Jedi toys, the same way those 30 - 50 year olds did 30/ 40 years ago.

There's a sad bleedin' image.

david75

Wedwood wrote: »

At one of last year's conventions, George Lucas reminded people that he designed Star Wars for 12 year olds.

Now picture millions of 30 - 50 year old adults around the world furiously debating the horror of Rian Johnson not giving them 'their Luke' in this movie. And in the next room their kids are sitting on the floor playing with their Last Jedi toys, the same way those 30 - 50 year olds did 30/ 40 years ago.

There's a sad bleedin' image.

He did and that’s wonderful.
It’s an amazing image. it’s captured a whole new generation. That’s a good thing.
If you write to keep the original fans now middle aged, happy, you end up with eastenders.
It isn’t our Star Wars anymore. We’re either on board with that or destined to complain forever on the internet.
Nobody’s taking your Star Wars away. This Star Wars is just doing something else for a new generation.

Stop being mean selfish bastards and grow up ffs

Wedwood

Wedwood wrote: »

At one of last year's conventions, George Lucas reminded people that he designed Star Wars for 12 year olds.

Now picture millions of 30 - 50 year old adults around the world furiously debating the horror of Rian Johnson not giving them 'their Luke' in this movie. And in the next room their kids are sitting on the floor playing with their Last Jedi toys, the same way those 30 - 50 year olds did 30/ 40 years ago.

There's a sad bleedin' image.

Just because its made for children, doesn't mean it has to be ****. I can name a string of Pixar films that are designed for children and are still brilliant films regardless.

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

He did and that’s wonderful.
It’s an amazing image. it’s captured a whole new generation. That’s a good thing.
If you write to keep the original fans now middle aged, happy, you end up with eastenders.
It isn’t our Star Wars anymore. We’re either on board with that or destined to complain forever on the internet.
Nobody’s taking your Star Wars away. This Star Wars is just doing something else for a new generation.

Stop being mean selfish bastards and grow up ffs

The smiley face always confuses me. It reminds me of the joke where someone goes up to someone and says: "No offense, but fúck you". :pac:

We can still critique the film for being a bad film, irrespective of the fact that it is Star Wars. David, by your logic, Disney can throw absolutely any old garbage out and stick Star Wars on it and say: "What are you complaining about? Just because it isn't your Star Wars anymore, doesn't mean you can't get on board and enjoy the utter dreck we have squeezed out." Brand loyalty is only a disservice to the brand itself. If we all become 'yes men' Disney will continue to pass on whatever shít they think will do well with their 'focus groups' then we will end up with garbage films. My hope is that the obvious divide that has taken place over TLJ and (most likely) the slamming Solo will get will prompt JJ and Co. to put in some effort, grow a little backbone and offer something of substance. That is the purpose of criticism. Not because people like to hate on things (though those people do exist), but because fans want to see something they enjoy succeed. This is a point washed over by supposed fans who will lap up any old shít and make excuses for lazy, flawed, film-making.

TLJ is flawed. It is a flawed film. Is it more flawed than the reboot of Baywatch? No. Is it more flawed than The Shape of Water? Yes. Sci-fi and fantasy films have had no problem gaining the Academy's attention and coming away successful, Lord of the Rings, Close Encounters, etc. etc. Star Wars (at the current manner of production) will never win an award for cinematography, acting, directing. Why? Because they are cookie-cutter flawed blockbusters. But, we love them all the same and most fans would argue that they don't care if they don't get real nominations.

There are many holes in this new trilogy, whether you choose to see them or not. Are there people here who can come up with better stories? Better execution? Better dialogue? Probably. If that is the case, then why did the director take the film in one particular direction and not another? When that happens and its abundantly clear, people are entitled to ask questions, probe the matter, and try to learn why the film is failing in a certain respect.

TLJ could have been written for 30 or 40 year olds (like how many other films are) and it would not have been Eastenders. In fact, I don't know anyone in my circle of friends who watches Eastenders, but they are all in their 30s now and enjoy watching films written for their demographic.

As for doing something else for a new generation, that is a bit premature. My cousin grew up in the era of the prequels. He was at the age of seeing the prequels when most older fans were that age seeing the originals, i.e. childhood. He doesn't even like the prequels. He prefers to watch the originals. If George sought to introduce Star Wars to a new generation with the prequels, it failed in some cases. It could very well fail with this new trilogy. Perhaps after Episode IX is released we might have a better understanding where the 'next generation's opinion rests.

People don't have to ride the Disney train, David. Yet, if they don't buy a ticket, it doesn't make them any less passionate about Star Wars than those willing to see past flaws and mistakes, and be a part of the 'everything is awesome' crowd.

Wedwood

If people are going to argue these movies should be really made for the adults, then there's the problem.

On the Pixar movie point, most kids movies are made for kids, with a few subtle bits thrown in to placate the adults who have to sit through them. Star Wars is no different.

Star Wars makes most of its money with the toys, that's who the movie's main audience are.

Tony EH

No. People are discussing the flaws of a given film. Not whether they should be "should be really made for the adults".

It's gas that some people want to degrade other people's opinions on a film's quality, but saying something like "it was made for 12 year olds".

Big deal.

That doesn't give a film a blank cheque to be crap, or riddled with inane stupidity. Nor, does it mean it can't deal in dramatic "adult" themes, which 12 year olds are WELL CAPABLE of handling.

'Jaws' was PG and 12 year olds loved it.

As adults, we have an awful tendency to talk down to kids with the media that's provided for them, when they are more than able to absorb serious subjects.

Peatys

Funny fecker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzO3DCW4LXw

GreeBo

david75 wrote: »

This Star Wars is just doing something else for a new generation.

As someone who came to Star Wars quite late (20 years ago in my early twenties) I found TLJ to be kinda Meh.
However, I found it to be exactly as Meh as the original trilogy..the same humour, the same storylines, the same English Nazis.

I think TLJ is far closer to the original trilogy than the prequels or TFA.
TFA was a good film in its own right, you didnt really need to know much about SW to enjoy it.

I dont think people of my generation are the intended audience at all, Star Trek is aimed at the older generation, Star Wars is going back to be aimed at young teenagers, just like the little fella at the end with his Rebel ring.

david75

GreeBo wrote: »

As someone who came to Star Wars quite late (20 years ago in my early twenties) I found TLJ to be kinda Meh.
However, I found it to be exactly as Meh as the original trilogy..the same humour, the same storylines, the same English Nazis.

I think TLJ is far closer to the original trilogy than the prequels or TFA.
TFA was a good film in its own right, you didnt really need to know much about SW to enjoy it.

I dont think people of my generation are the intended audience at all, Star Trek is aimed at the older generation, Star Wars is going back to be aimed at young teenagers, just like the little fella at the end with his Rebel ring.

Yeah that’s who I meant. A much younger crowd. Listening to a SW podcasts this past few weeks and a few have had their young kids on talking about it and it seems to have resonated with them. Some of their takes are funny:)
‘The little blue goblin that talks to Luke and makes him go to save the good guys’
Cute

Vladimir Poontang

None of the film's flaws have anything to do with the age of the audience and have everything to do with bad storytelling.

Stop trying to deflect from what is an objectively awful story

david75

We have you to remind us

To your point

This is definitely an unpopular opinion but if you watch the prequels and the performances given with the idea in mind that they’re Saturday matinee adventure serials the performances are a lot more rewarding. Even the awful romance stuff in AOTC with anakin and Padme, the dialogue is really 50s in spirit and has an innocence about it.

The best way to view all of Star Wars (but especially the PT) is through pulp-tinted glasses. The more you put it in the context of the Saturday Matinee Adventure Serial, the better. I really think that the tone of the PT is exactly what Lucas always intended. The movies aren't as strong, in my opinion, a the OT overall but I think the are exactly what he always wanted Star Wars to be.

It’s 100% succeeding at him capturing the spirit he always intended. The only problem being none of us were around for that to truly get the point and appreciate how they’re being depicted, apart from after the fact post mortems telling us this is a good way to enjoy these films.

I heard filoni a few years back saying the best way and main points being missed was if you watch them as the downfall of the Jedi but through their own complacency and blindness and false sense of security that’s been eaten away under their noses and they’re now scrambling to fight that rot, it’s all the more enjoyable.

That point has been entirely missed in modern views and opinions on the prequels. Sure it’s about Anakins fall and becoming Vader but the multiptle running themes of duality throughout the trilogy come to bear in no bigger way than about the fall of the Jedi at their own hands in many ways.
TLJ did a great job of making that point too via luke but it’s one you rarely see talked about.

My first viewing of TLJ threw me but like it did all of us and in that it reminded me more of the PT than the OT. I think TLJ married both trilogies in such a fantastic way. But it does have more in common with the PT, I think. Both in look/feel and thematically. It's like the best written Prequel: the prequel we all wanted.

This is I think what people are really struggling with. Me saying it’s a packed and layered and loaded with true Star Wars film and people haven’t realised it yet and should just give it a few more views is no more valid than anyone just saying it’s crap stop defending it. Fine. But we still want to talk about it.

And hopefully be allowed talk about it.

Tony EH

The audience shouldn't have to make excuses for bad films.

homerun_homer

david75 wrote: »

We have you to remind us

To your point

This is definitely an unpopular opinion but if you watch the prequels and the performances given with the idea in mind that they’re Saturday matinee adventure serials the performances are a lot more rewarding. Even the awful romance stuff in AOTC with anakin and Padme, the dialogue is really 50s in spirit and has an innocence about it.

The best way to view all of Star Wars (but especially the PT) is through pulp-tinted glasses. The more you put it in the context of the Saturday Matinee Adventure Serial, the better. I really think that the tone of the PT is exactly what Lucas always intended. The movies aren't as strong, in my opinion, a the OT overall but I think the are exactly what he always wanted Star Wars to be.

Come on man, stop making excuses for Lucas, he can't direct actors and there is no other reason. It wasn't him trying to be smart and make the acting like anything else. It is so distractingly monotone, robotic and bad.

david75

They’re not great films by any stretch at all.
Short version of my point was there’s a lot of brilliant Star Wars in them and you can appreciate that if you can put aside the bad stuff. Which I can.

They’re made even better when you watch the clone wars series.
But for anyone who won’t cos they’re CGI animated? News for you. The prequels are mostly CGI animated as well

david75

I can see this going down really well here

HOW THE LAST JEDI GOT LUKE SKYWALKER RIGHT
https://t.co/Jl2wGh9CSY

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

I can see this going down really well here

HOW THE LAST JEDI GOT LUKE SKYWALKER RIGHT
https://t.co/Jl2wGh9CSY

If it takes you sixteen times to 'get something', you are either pretty fúcking dumb; the film is so badly constructed; or you have indoctrinated/deluded/self-propagandised yourself. Particularly when it comes to this film, seeing as its a blockbuster, and Star Wars - this franchise was never intended to get the person 'thinking'.

david75

Ok. Well There’s mountains of stuff to think about in Star Wars and designed to make you think if you choose to. Nobody’s making you. If its just popcorn blockbuster for you that’s great too and it works on that level. Seeing a film multiple times isn’t stupid either.
What, your favourite band releases a new album and you only listen to it once? Hardly. This is the same thing. Being so dismissive of someone who dares to have thoughts about it is a bit much.
We’ve had a month of people railing against it why they think it’s ****. No harm in hearing the other side.

Below Johnson confirming the mirror is only showing Rey her deepest fear. Good to have that confirmed.

https://twitter.com/lsirikul/status/959013357163446272

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

Ok. Well There’s mountains of stuff to think about in Star Wars and designed to make you think if you choose to. Nobody’s making you. If its just popcorn blockbuster for you that’s great too and it works on that level. Seeing a film multiple times isn’t stupid either.
What, your favourite band releases a new album and you only listen to it once? Hardly. This is the same thing. Being so dismissive of someone who dares to have thoughts about it is a bit much.
We’ve had a month of people railing against it why they think it’s ****. No harm in hearing the other side.

Below Johnson confirming the mirror is only showing Rey her deepest fear. Good to have that confirmed.

I never said seeing a film multiple times is stupid. I saw The Two Towers five times in cinema for the Battle of Helm's Deep alone! I said, if it takes you multiple times (in this case, sixteen) to 'get it' or 'understand what it is trying to say' then its either a bad film (in terms of design/structure) or you are pretty thick. Most films are designed to be understood relatively easily, particularly kids films. Star Wars is a kids film, as you have argued. This new trilogy is for the next, emerging generation of kids. If it took an educated adult (he can certainly write quite well) sixteen times to 'get' The Last Jedi, particularly Luke's arc, then I have serious reservations about his opinion. My guess is that he convinced himself he got it, for whatever reason - brand loyalty, hits on a website for an article he wrote, group mentality, whatever. It doesn't change the fact that an apparently educated person struggled to enjoy something that he wanted to enjoy and was created for kids.

The key surface level questions being asked by the audience in a Star Wars film are pretty basic. Who is Luke's father? Who is his mother? Who are Rey's parents? Where did Han meet Chewie? Who is the Emperor? Etc., etc. When Star Wars tries to go too deep it starts asking 12 year olds to discuss the merits of a trade blockade on a planet and how that might impact on Galactic relations and raises implications on what constitutes war/violence. When that happens, the film gets slammed for being ridiculous. See what I am getting at? Star Wars can't be for kids and deal with complex issues in depth. It doesn't gel. Kids don't care about trade disputes. A complex dense film, imo, is one where someone can put forward an argument as to how you can interpret the film.

Now, this is what I think of as ways and means of interpretation and getting people to think about a film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ginQNMiRu2w

kirk buttercup

I brought my kids to see it at Christmas with my wife. I would be a Star Wars fan over the years my wife likes them but is not really that pushed. in the first half an hour I admit I was a little taken back that it was so slapstick however my two sons both laughed their faces off during these bits. I felt it dragged a little in the middle but all 3 kids were glued to it .I thought from about half way the movie was really good and I really enjoyed the last hour of it ( although the whole Leia thing kind of confused me and I thought that would have been a good place to say goodbye). I came out of the Movie thinking that was pretty good especially considering its the middle episode of the trilogy , the big thing though was my kids / wife came out thinking its the best Star Wars ever I don't agree but the point is Disney don't care ,the kids loved it and bought the stuff to prove it. The SW universe is going to branch out to a very new generation whether I like the direction or not and I can testify the new generation from what I Have seen are loving it.