Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

5uspect

The plot of the movie is just like the episode of Fr Ted where Dougal drives the milk float.

david75

Do we have a thread for 9 yet?

J. J. Abrams Can’t Wait To Share Details On Star Wars Episode IX As He Heads Off To Lucasfilm


https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2018/02/j-j-abrams-cant-wait-to-share-details-on-star-wars-episode-ix-as-he-heads-off-to-lucasfilm.html

J Mysterio

I want to see the Last Jedi again now. I feel commercial release shouldnt take quite so long after the cinema showings.

Still though, i'm really dissapointed overall with it, and the sequels in general. What really annoys me is that there was never a joined up plan on how to wind up the saga. It was a 'lets do the last trilogy film by film and see what happens!' approach. Pawing of responsibility from director to director, each doing 'their bit'. That's a damn abdication of responsibility right there! They should have spent the time to get the story on point, rather than just make it up as they go along.

What is frustrating is we had another craic with the main guys. Anythunf could have been done with then. We will never ever have Luke, Leia or Han Solo in another Star Wars film ever again. They were criminally underused, and the sequals were criminally underwrought and nkf thought out.

Tony EH

How many did you have when you wrote that J?

Seriously though, I agree. Lack of story is one of the most common complaints about this trilogy. But, it's exacerbated by the wanton abandon by Johnson of everything Abrams set up in 'The Force Awakens'.

It's the "yeh whatever..." approach that makes the "make it up as you go" seem worse.

The nadir of all of this is that a lot of folk don't care what happens in IX now.

david75

That’s interesting. I wouldn’t say underused. Definitely wanted more Luke but he’s exactly where he needs to be in 8 for me. And he’ll be back in 9 anyways.
Lotta people think Han luke and Leia shouldn’t have been in this new trilogy at all.

tigger123

I'm pretty sure George Lucas didn't have the original trilogy mapped out when he made ANH.

Why is it such an issue that the current trilogy isn't mapped out?

Tony EH

tigger123 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure George Lucas didn't have the original trilogy mapped out when he made ANH.

Why is it such an issue that the current trilogy isn't mapped out?

Not entirely no, but he did have ideas of where he wanted it to go. He also didn't just toss everything that came previously over his shoulder either.

In any case, it's not an excuse for the shoddy handling of this trilogy.

It's an "issue" becuase nothing is adding up and very little is ending up satisfying a lot of fans.

david75

He absolutely did! He completely ignored loads of elements as the OT went by. Luke and Leia kissing then being siblings the most obvious one.

tigger123

Tony EH wrote: »

Not entirely no, but he did have ideas of where he wanted it to go. He also didn't just toss everything that came previously over his shoulder either.

In any case, it's not an excuse for the shoddy handling of this trilogy.

It's an "issue" becuase nothing is adding up and very little is ending up satisfying a lot of fans.

The final part of this trilogy is yet to be written or made, so who knows, this trilogy when viewed in it's entirety could be epic.

I find it a strange criticism tbh. Writing original films like these (not based on a book) are generally done in this manner.

It makes sense. Artistic work doesn't always pan out how exactly as expected. I can see why Disney / Johnson / Abrams would leave the films some time to breath before deciding it's next chapter.

david75

As above Abrams is already working and preproduction has started. The story is written and he wouldn’t say if any elements of Treverows script are being kept. (They won’t be). Think they start filming in June.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

He absolutely did! He completely ignored loads of elements as the OT went by. Luke and Leia kissing then being siblings the most obvious one.

I'll repeat:

He also didn't just toss everything that came previously over his shoulder either.

Tony EH

tigger123 wrote: »

The final part of this trilogy is yet to be written or made, so who knows, this trilogy when viewed in it's entirety could be epic.

I can't see it. We're two films in and we still have paper thin characters with zero substance. A political situation that's utterly groundless. A quite bizzare and all powerful First Order and a wrecked "resistance", etc.

Into the bargain, we have Abrams back at the helm, which does not bode well at all.

tigger123 wrote: »

I find it a strange criticism tbh. Writing original films like these (not based on a book) are generally done in this manner.

It makes sense. Artistic work doesn't always pan out how exactly as expected. I can see why Disney / Johnson / Abrams would leave the films some time to breath before deciding it's next chapter.

NOBODY is saying that everything has to be mapped out and all the i's dotted and t's crossed.

But, it helps if you have, at least, broad concepts that are carried through a series and this trilogy was actually SET UP as a series of films from the start.

This trilogy has had things introduced (hello Knights of Ren) and susequently dropped (goodbye Knights of Ren). It also has no background. None whatsoever. The state of the galaxy isn't even bothered with. The First Order rules, just because. Why anybody wants anything isn't mentioned. Characters just do stuff and their motivations remain vague at best, outright stupid at worst. There's little in these films that make in the tiniest bit of sense.

There are tons of things wrong here and the viewer is forced to ignore them if they are to get on board. It requres people NOT to probe beyond the most shallow of depths, lest the whole facade comes tumbling down.

Not everyone is willing to do that.

david75

I don’t feel that happens in TLJ apart from Reys story. And again it has to be said we worked ourselves up into that lather about who she is. It’s not really all that important now that we have two parts of the story. But it will probably be resolved in 9, what else?
Snoke? He has more screentime in TLJ than the emperor has in the entire OT (well, 30 seconds more. 15mins each). Not everything has to be explained. It’s more powerful if it isn’t. You demistify him if you explain it.
I can’t think of anything else

buried

The most ridiculous new move that I seen in this thing was where yer wan flew the ship at light speed into the star destroyer. It was highly stupid to introduce that kind of tactic into what is and always has been basically a light hearted enough fantastical space tale with basic battle tactics. Now that 'martyrdom' has effectively now been brought into it, where do they go in the next one? Are they just going to get droids to fly huge ships at light speed into whatever ship or planet they like? May as well. And why didn't nobody think of this before? What was the point in building a DeathStarkiller thing at all, Just fly loads of big empty ship hulls at light speed at a planet! Whoever was editor of the script must have been taking a two week p!ss when that scene was written in. Introducing that sort of thing in the universe of the action was utterly utterly stupid and lazy.
IMO

david75

It actually has been done before in Clone wars and Rebels. Just never in the films. I find this a weird complaint. We wanted Star Wars to do new things. That was huge and beautiful. And sacrifice is all over the OT. Martyrdom is a strong word but they’re a rebellion. There has to be high stakes and sacrifice.

Is this still on anywhere? It’s gone outta lighthouse.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

I don’t feel that happens in TLJ apart from Reys story. And again it has to be said we worked ourselves up into that lather about who she is.

Not everyone. A lot don't give a fuck who Rey is. But they would at the very like an explanation of why she is the way she is. Otherwise we're back to "just because".

We don't need to know every character's back story. But, a slight indication of how and why they can do the shit they do is important to buying in to that character.

david75 wrote: »

Snoke? He has more screentime in TLJ than the emperor has in the entire OT (well, 30 seconds more. 15mins each). Not everything has to be explained. It’s more powerful if it isn’t. You demistify him if you explain it.
I can’t think of anything else

And yet, the audience knows more about the Emperor, because it's there on the screen. We know he's the head honcho of an Empire that rules a galaxy with an iron fist, becasue he has a particular view of the order that that galaxy should be run by. Plus he wants to replace Vader with his son Luke.

That's all we need to know about him.

Snoke, OTOH, appears one film and then makes an exit the next, leaving the audience totally in the dark as to why he was even present in the first place.

The reason for that was careless writing on behalf of Abrams in 'The Force Awakens' and "yeh whatever..." by Johnson in 'The Last Jedi'.

Not good enough.

buried

david75 wrote: »

It actually has been done before in Clone wars and Rebels. Just never in the films. I find this a weird complaint. We wanted Star Wars to do new things. That was huge and beautiful. And sacrifice is all over the OT. Martyrdom is a strong word but they’re a rebellion. There has to be high stakes and sacrifice.

Is this still on anywhere? It’s gone outta lighthouse.

I thought it was highly stupid Dave. Nothing on a level like that was in the OT. Suicide missions using a weapon at light speed at a larger target? Where was that in Episodes 4-6? Come on man

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

It actually has been done before in Clone wars and Rebels. Just never in the films. I find this a weird complaint. We wanted Star Wars to do new things. That was huge and beautiful. And sacrifice is all over the OT. Martyrdom is a strong word but they’re a rebellion. There has to be high stakes and sacrifice.

New things are fine. Stupid things for the sake of kewl shot are not.

Introducing something like that into the series fundamentally changes how battles can be fought in this universe. Something like that FORCES the viewer to question WTF nobody ever did that before.

And the writer should damn well have asked themselves that question too.

In the future, when somebody is up against a superweapon target, the obvious question is going to be asked by the audience.

"Why not just do the Holdo maneuver?"

buried

Tony EH wrote: »

New things are fine. Stupid things for the sake of kewl shot are not.

Introducing something like that into the series fundamentally changes how battles can be fought in this universe. Something like that FORCES the viewer to question WTF nobody ever did that before.

And the writer should damn well have asked themselves that question too.

In the future, when somebody is up against a superweapon target, the obvious question is going to be asked by the audience.

"Why not just do the Holdo maneuver?"

Yeah in fairness, this is exactly it.

I'm all for new things being introduced, but not when a scenario is written in that effectively kills the struggle of conflict within the story.
I mean, what will be the point in introducing any sort of new superweapon or anything at all when now the tactic can be just a "Laura Dern move" and fly a load of empty ships flown by droids at whatever ship/death star/planet anybody likes.
It was a bad move to introduce, I liked a good few, not all of the new things and aspects introduced in TLJ but the suicide light speed weapon was totally bizarre thing to stick into the universe.

david75

So it cant happen cos it hasn’t happened before?
Seriously? There’s a mountain of stuff in Empire and further ROTJ that doesn’t happen in the previous. Yet when it does repeat itself were also angry. Hello second and third Death Stars

It’s a beautiful moment. She’s giving herself up to save the rebellion. Last chance they have. I think it’s amazing.

Tony EH

Happy clappy doesn't eliminate problems.

buried

david75 wrote: »

So it cant happen cos it hasn’t happened before?
Seriously? There’s a mountain of stuff in Empire and further ROTJ that doesn’t happen in the previous. Yet when it does repeat itself were also angry. Hello second and third Death Stars

It’s a beautiful moment. She’s giving herself up to save the rebellion. Last chance they have. I think it’s amazing.

lol Jayzus Dave man, I'd say if one of these films was just footage of a club final hurling match after the yellow scroll script at the start you'd still be loving it!
Ahh your big into it man, I get it, fair play

david75

buried wrote: »

lol Jayzus Dave man, I'd say if one of these films was just footage of a club final hurling match after the yellow scroll script at the start you'd still be loving it!
Ahh your big into it man, I get it, fair play

Not at all. I’m a big fan and have harsh criticisms of every single one of the films. Just there’s enough of that here so I end up playing defence

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Not everyone. A lot don't give a fuck who Rey is. But they would at the very like an explanation of why she is the way she is. Otherwise we're back to "just because".

We don't need to know every character's back story. But, a slight indication of how and why they can do the shit they do is important to buying in to that character.



And yet, the audience knows more about the Emperor, because it's there on the screen. We know he's the head honcho of an Empire that rules a galaxy with an iron fist, becasue he has a particular view of the order that that galaxy should be run by. Plus he wants to replace Vader with his son Luke.

That's all we need to know about him.

Snoke, OTOH, appears one film and then makes an exit the next, leaving the audience totally in the dark as to why he was even present in the first place.

The reason for that was careless writing on behalf of Abrams in 'The Force Awakens' and "yeh whatever..." by Johnson in 'The Last Jedi'.

Not good enough.

It’s explained quite clearly why she is the way she is. The force has woken in her to balance the darkness in Kylo. She doesn’t know that but we’re in the god seat and see it.
As to Palpatine he is almost exactly the same character as Snoke and the same motivations. Except he wants to kill Skywalker whereas the emperor wants to turn him.
If we want to see great characters Being ruined by unnecessary backstory well hello there prequels and demystifying Palpatine. Although in fairness to McDiarmaid he gives a wonderful performance throughout. Genuinely creepy

geecee

david75 wrote: »

It’s explained quite clearly why she is the way she is. The force has woken in her to balance the darkness in Kylo.

Why did the force not rise to balance the darkness during the 20 odd years of the Galactic empire and Palpatine/Vaders reign?

david75

geecee wrote: »

Why did the force not rise to balance the darkness during the 20 odd years of the Galactic empire and Palpatine/Vaders reign?

Good question. Yoda and Obi wan were still out there I guess?
The idea of balance and the prophesy thing was always suspect. Anakin was sposed to be the one brings balance yet it only happens when luke breaks through and motivates it. So who actually brought balance? And what is it? It doesn’t really stand up to much scrutiny but I’ve a feeling it’s going to be addressed again in Rey and kylo in 9

Tony EH

geecee wrote: »

Why did the force not rise to balance the darkness during the 20 odd years of the Galactic empire and Palpatine/Vaders reign?

Because the "light rising...yadda, yadda, yadda" was a poor and woefully insufficient "explanation" for all of Rey's instant greatness.

It's just gibberish to excuse bad writting and thin characterisation.

Arne_Saknussem

Tony EH wrote: »

Because the "light rising...yadda, yadda, yadda" was a poor and woefully insufficient "explanation" for all of Rey's instant greatness.

It's just gibberish to excuse bad writting and thin characterisation.

Yep, instead of using the force the Force is using her like some sort of RPG character. Piss poor.

Falthyron

Initially, when I saw Holdo's lightspeed suicide mission I thought the explosion in conjunction with Luke's saber splitting led to a chain reaction. As in, the crystal in his saber (the raw power) was exposed and the combination of that with the ship's explosion caused the monumental destruction that took place.

But, no. It didn't.

Logically, we should now start seeing droid ships primed for lightspeed designed to smash into major, heavily shielded ships for maximum effect. Why wouldn't you do this? Look at the sheer damage it caused. All from one moderately sized frigate (don't think it was a capital ship). This is something I have come to expect, and I expect both sides to find ways to counter this tactic as they fight these wars. Then again, I didn't expect the First Order to keep designing walkers with the same crucial flaws as was highlighted during the Battle of Hoth. So.... there's that.

I agree with Tony. Rian probably thought to himself: "What would happen if you smashed a ship in lightspeed into another ship". He did it because it would look cool. And by doing that, he has now raised questions and transformed how wars in space can be fought without any consideration for the implications down the road in subsequent films. Kylo has his own massive capital ship in Episode IX? No problem. Lightspeed a frigate into the heart of it, job done. This decision pretty much reinforces my point that there has been very little planning done in this new trilogy. A very ad hoc solution and approach to problems facing this director without much care about what pieces have to be picked up by his successor. At least, if JJ had been given the job of filming the trilogy (or Rian for that matter), they might not have left themselves with so many loose threads or chaotic elements to resolve as they work their way through.

Conall Cernach

Falthyron wrote: »

At least, if JJ had been given the job of filming the trilogy (or Rian for that matter), they might not have left themselves with so many loose threads or chaotic elements to resolve as they work their way through.

Don't forget that it was JJ that brought trans warp beaming and Khan's healing serum thingy into Star Trek.