Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

johnny_ultimate

buried wrote: »

It was highly stupid to introduce that kind of tactic into what is and always has been basically a light hearted enough fantastical space tale with basic battle tactics. Now that 'martyrdom' has effectively now been brought into it, where do they go in the next one?

I think it’s a wee bit ludicrous to accuse TLJ of introducing the concept of ‘martyrdom’ into the franchise, when Rogue One was in fact a feature-length suicide mission.

(Not that I believe noble sacrifices weren’t referenced or shown in the series until that point, mind: indeed, there’s several such references and sacrifices in A New Hope.)

Falthyron

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Don't forget that it was JJ that brought trans warp beaming and Khan's healing serum thingy into Star Trek.

JJ has his flaws, I know. But, the point about one overarching grand narrative being written before filming began would have been the better path. Far better and it wouldn't have left us with disjointed tone and unanswered questions, or questions which have now been answered, but may change... :pac:

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I think it’s a wee bit ludicrous to accuse TLJ of introducing the concept ‘martyrdom’ into the franchise, when Rogue One was in fact a feature-length suicide mission.

(Not that I believe noble sacrifices weren’t referenced or shown in the series until that point, mind: indeed, there’s several such references and sacrifices in A New Hope.)

I think he means "martyrdom" by way of hyperspace attack/suicide.

buried

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I think it’s a wee bit ludicrous to accuse TLJ of introducing the concept ‘martyrdom’ into the franchise, when Rogue One was in fact a feature-length suicide mission.

(Not that I believe noble sacrifices weren’t referenced or shown in the series until that point, mind: indeed, there’s several such references and sacrifices in A New Hope.)

lol Yeah I suppose, I completely forgot about the plot of Rogue one, but I didn't really enjoy that film myself so wasn't hard to forget! But still, using large gigantic spacecraft as light speed weapons is a serious break of the tone of the whole story arc. It was a poor move Imo, what did you make of it J?

johnny_ultimate

Tony EH wrote: »

I think he means "martyrdom" by way of hyperspace attack/suicide.

A different flavour of a concept that has been very well-established in the franchise, then. Regardless, any suggestion this has always been a wholly ‘lighthearted’ series when it comes to warfare can be easily dismissed by its frequent use of actual genocide as a significant plot point.

Anyway, I’ve said before, I think the lightspeed attack is a magnificent piece of purest spectacle cinema that, for this film, stylistically and dramatically utterly justified whatever consequences it has for future films. Not that I even remotely care about those consequences: future writers can just ignore it if they wish.

Tony EH

Um...no Johnny, I don't agree.

Introducing something like Holdo's hyperspace attack, that's so incredibly destructive, into a series that features space battles is a dynamic that will raise questions when it's left out on future installments.

In fact, it raises the obvious question of why nobody used it before when the chips were down.

It's just a bad idea.

david75

Jumps in tone. That’s an odd criticism to levy.
Empire is a completely different jump in tone to a new hope. It couldn’t be more different. And it needed to be. As with the new two.
ROTJ was a reset and is ANH remade. And it’s grand. It also needed to be.
JJ can’t remake ROTJ but he probably will have all the same beats but it’ll be far more tonally similar to TFA than TLJ just as Jedi was ANH. and that’s no bad thing. It will probably be welcomed by those who have problems with TLJ. (No there’ll still be complaints but however )

johnny_ultimate

Tony EH wrote: »

Introducing something like Holdo's hyperspace attack, that's so incredibly destructive, into a series that features space battles is a dynamic that will raise questions when it's left out on future installments.

And I think it’s easily dismissed by suggesting it’s a very difficult and costly manoeuvre to pull off, and now something people will be prepared for and ready to defend against. Maybe they even come up with clever variations on it for future films! Maybe it happened off screen before. This series has long made up **** as it goes along - no different here.

Regardless, I don’t particularly care how they deal with it: it worked here for me, and that’s all I really care about.

In fact, it raises the obvious question of why nobody used it before when the chips were down.

This complaint reads to me that Rian Johnson came up with an idea nobody did before and therefore... shouldn’t have used it?!

Anyway, we’re never going to agree on this (or much about this film). I think it’s a bloody fantastic scene that Johnson directed like a goddamn boss, and that’s about all I have to say about it

tigger123

Buzz Lightyear spends the entire series of Toy Story movies believing he's not a toy, but he still freezes when people are around.

There's a suspension of disbelief in all movies. Especially sci fi and fantasy stuff. It comes with the territory.

You could go over every SW movie and pick out flaws.

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Anyway, I’ve said before, I think the lightspeed attack is a magnificent piece of purest spectacle cinema that, for this film, stylistically and dramatically utterly justified whatever consequences it has for future films. Not that I even remotely care about those consequences: future writers can just ignore it if they wish.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

And I think it’s easily dismissed by suggesting it’s a very difficult and costly manoeuvre to pull of, and now something people will be prepared for and ready to prepare against. Maybe they even come up with clever variations on it for future films! Maybe it happened off screen before.

Regardless, I don’t particularly care how they deal with it: it worked here for me, and that’s all I really care about.

Some of us DO care though, for valid reasons.

buried

Tony EH wrote: »

Um...no Johnny, I don't agree.

Introducing something like Holdo's hyperspace attack, that's so incredibly destructive, into a series that features space battles is a dynamic that will raise questions when it's left out on future installments.

In fact, it raises the obvious question of why nobody used it before when the chips were down.

It's just a bad idea.

That's exactly it. In a world where the usage of hyperspace/light speed is so cheap and freely available, with droids with enough intelligence to carry out this sort of tactic, the fact it was never used anywhere before is a serious WTF moment. There was no need to have it introduced to this movie universe. What makes it worse is that the 30 minutes spent on the paddypower gamble planet where literally nothing happened, could have been used to create a better scenario for that whole ship siege story part, which I thought was pretty good until that suicide hyperspacemissile element came into it.

Tony EH

buried wrote: »

That's exactly it. In a world where the usage of hyperspace/light speed is so cheap and freely available, with droids with enough intelligence to carry out this sort of tactic, the fact it was never used anywhere before is a serious WTF moment. There was no need to have it introduced to this movie universe. What makes it worse is that the 30 minutes spent on the paddypower gamble planet where literally nothing happened, could have been used to create a better scenario for that whole ship siege story part, which I thought was pretty good until that suicide hyperspacemissile element came into it.

david75

ITs a real head scratcher. ‘It hasn’t happened before therefore it shouldn’t happen/has to happen all the time going forward’.
I just don’t get that at all.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

ITs a real head scratcher. ‘It hasn’t happened before therefore it shouldn’t happen/has to happen all the time going forward’.
I just don’t get that at all.

No one is saying that. But, if people on the web can see future consequences to any drama involving a Star Wars spaceship show down where the odds are against the heroes, they are going to ask (quite rightly) why DON'T THEY JUST USE THE FUCKIN HOLDO MANEUVER?????

david75

THE entire canto bight sequence is only 13 minutes long apparently?
That doesn’t sound right

I hate Benecios role in TLJ. That’s the worst thing about that entire sequence for me.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

No one is saying that. But, if people on the web can see future consequences to any drama involving a Star Wars spaceship show down where the odds are against the heroes, they are going to ask (quite rightly) why DON'T THEY JUST USE THE FUCKIN HOLDO MANEUVER?????

Well it’s the same way you can ask why doesn’t Vader just use the force and grab the falcon as it’s taking off out of the hangar on Hoth? Or why doesn’t luke just totally wreck all those walkers and truly give the Rebels a chance of escaping at the end of TLJ.

It’s space fantasty sure but we shouldn’t freak out if it does new stuff like the Holdo Maneuver. I always wanna see new stuff in Star Wars but we will never see done as beautifully as that. Luke force projecting. Also a totally new thing. And amazing.

It’s also Laura Derns birthday today

buried

david75 wrote: »

THE entire canto bight sequence is only 13 minutes long apparently?
That doesn’t sound right

I hate Benecios role in TLJ. That’s the worst thing about that entire sequence for me.

I was half expecting Johnny Depp as Hunter S Thompson was going to show up in the casino and go on the tair with him. I kept thinking, this guy is exactly like a watered down Dr.Gonzo!

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Well it’s the same way you can ask why doesn’t Vader just use the force and grab the falcon as it’s taking off out of the hangar on Hoth?

Because he and the Force isn't that powerful?

david75 wrote: »

Or why doesn’t luke just totally wreck all those walkers and truly give the Rebels a chance of escaping at the end of TLJ.

Because he's not actually there.

These are terrible comparsions David.

david75 wrote: »

It’s space fantasty sure but we shouldn’t freak out if it does new stuff like the Holdo Maneuver. I always wanna see new stuff in Star Wars but we will never see done as beautifully as that. Luke force projecting. Also a totally new thing. And amazing.

None of that excuses bad writing.

Look, this Holdo Maneuver would be fine, if it existed in some other, standalone, one and done film.

But, this is Star Wars, with an actual history to the procedings that has been crafted over nearly 50 years.

Introducing "new" stuff will inevitably bounce off of what has come before and what will come in the future.

Now, as Johnny said, you can just "ignore" it and that's grand.

But, other people aren't going to simply ignore it.

Look, what's happened here is that Johnson created a nice scene and didn't give a fuck about the consequences.

But, a lot of fans are not going to be so blasr willfully ignorant.

david75

JJ missed a trick not including Han hanging his dice back up in the falcon. They’re in the new Solo film.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Because he and the Force isn't that powerful?



Because he's not actually there.

These are terrible comparsions David.



None of that excuses bad writing.

Look, this Holdo Maneuver would be fine, if it existed in some other, standalone, one and done film.

But, this is Star Wars, with an actual history to the procedings that has been crafted over nearly 50 years.

Introducing "new" stuff will inevitably bounce off of what has come before and what will come in the future.

Now, as Johnny said, you can just "ignore" it and that's grand.

But, other people aren't going to simply ignore it.

Look, what's happened here is that Johnson created a nice scene and didn't give a fuck about the consequences.

But, a lot of fans are not going to be so blasr willfully ignorant.

Since its release I’ve seen maybe ten people complain about that scene and even the most vocal haters really loving it saying it was one of the only things they liked. It’s not that big a deal especially given the armada of problems people have that would be considered legitimate.

david75

Never seen this. Amazing. Who is really directing this scene?

https://twitter.com/jamieswb/status/962420969833975808

david75

You’re welcome

Relikk

david75 wrote: »

You’re welcome

david75

JUst doing a double whammy TFA into TLJ. They have far more natural connections than either the prequels or OT. TLJ is a response in tone and by being darker and more complex sets off nicely against TFA being only one note one story.

Still have trouble with luke just throwing the saber away. They could have played that a million other ways and to better effect. But it works.

Rey in the cave and all Rey and kylos scenes are the heart of this. He’s acting the head off himself. He played a blinder in this. As does Hamill. When he does eventually open up to her in the tree and then the Jedi ledge cave thing he is fvck it bringing it. It’s Luke Skywalker. Whereas the moment when he flicks is shoulder is probably a little too much Mark Hamill.

That’s leia. Not Carrie Fisher. Felt like I was watching Carrie Fisher in TFA. Here? It’s Leia. She’s in full command and has a deeper understanding and pays a deeper cost than her army realise. Pod is brilliant. He has an arc. Has a journey of understanding.
Holdo I just love. She’s played to make you think she’s gonna betray and is a bad guy. No. She’s doing the best thing for everyone from the outset.

Could go on and on. But..
The throne room. The throne room. The throne room.

The end.

Koala Sunshine

This is my favourite star wars movie, so refreshing to watch new ideas in a star wars movie.

Keyzer

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

This is my favourite star wars movie, so refreshing to watch new ideas in a star wars movie.

Funny how different people see things differently.

I went to see this yesterday with my son and thought it was, arguably, one of the worst films I've ever seen. Awful story, awful acting, awful dialogue. Just awful.

I had a feeling of dread when the "your mom" jokes started 2 minutes into the movie.

All that said, the single biggest thing that pissed me off about this movie was the political agenda they rammed down the audiences throat. SJW/feminist nonsense from the get go.

david75

david75 wrote: »

all Rey and kylos scenes are the heart of this. He’s acting the head off himself. He played a blinder in this.

Agreed. Adam Driver absolutely nails it (in both TFA and TLJ) for me. I can see why he didn’t need to audition for the role. He was made to be Kylo.

tigger123

Keyzer wrote: »

Funny how different people see things differently.

I went to see this yesterday with my son and thought it was, arguably, one of the worst films I've ever seen. Awful story, awful acting, awful dialogue. Just awful.

I had a feeling of dread when the "your mom" jokes started 2 minutes into the movie.

All that said, the single biggest thing that pissed me off about this movie was the political agenda they rammed down the audiences throat. SJW/feminist nonsense from the get go.

How/where did you see that agenda in the movie? Genuine question.

tigger123

Keyzer wrote: »

Funny how different people see things differently.

I went to see this yesterday with my son and thought it was, arguably, one of the worst films I've ever seen. Awful story, awful acting, awful dialogue. Just awful.

I had a feeling of dread when the "your mom" jokes started 2 minutes into the movie.

All that said, the single biggest thing that pissed me off about this movie was the political agenda they rammed down the audiences throat. SJW/feminist nonsense from the get go.

How/where did you see that agenda in the movie? Genuine question.

Saruhashi

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

A different flavour of a concept that has been very well-established in the franchise, then. Regardless, any suggestion this has always been a wholly ‘lighthearted’ series when it comes to warfare can be easily dismissed by its frequent use of actual genocide as a significant plot point.

Anyway, I’ve said before, I think the lightspeed attack is a magnificent piece of purest spectacle cinema that, for this film, stylistically and dramatically utterly justified whatever consequences it has for future films. Not that I even remotely care about those consequences: future writers can just ignore it if they wish.

I think this is an interesting take and I wonder if you would feel differently if the objections to the light-speed attack were contained within a single movie rather than spread across a series of movies set in the same "universe"?

Imagine a generic space film where:

We open with a scene where a massive ship with the potential to kill everyone was attacking the good guys and the good guys can't figure out how to destroy it. They just lose tons of soldiers and ships trying to bring it down before they finally win.

In the middle of the film an even more massive ship threatens to kill everyone but it's taken out by a single pilot using a single ship travelling at light speed.

At the end of the film the good guys are once again faced with a massive ship that can kill them all. How can they possibly defeat it?

I think if all of this was contained within a single film we would say "what the hell, if light-speed is a weapon that costs one solider and one ship then why aren't they just using it in every fight?".

Wouldn't we?

So how does that change if we extend the single movie out into a series of episodes?

I would think the biggest consequence is that something that happens in Episode 8 of 9 makes the previous 7 episodes make no sense.

Here is a universe where every other ship has a light-speed engine and there are a load of droids and clones and various disposable minions in these warring factions. It's possible to disable an entire fleet by ramming their largest ship at light-speed with a single vessel containing a single pilot.

I'm not sure that the stylistic and dramatic benefits outweigh the damage to the integrity of the fictional world that they've been building up.

It's not really even well set up in TLJ anyway, in my opinion. The entire resistance fleet has light-speed capability. Once it's been established that the First Order is chasing them they allow several of their large ships to be taken out, with pilots on board AND they allow several of their small transports carrying their last surviving people to be destroyed and only at this point does someone think "hang on, our big ship could just ram their big ship at light-speed and they'd be all smashed up and broken"?

For me, that's poor writing. Considering the consequences to the larger Star Wars universe I think it was extremely reckless.

I suppose if you don't care then it's fine. Maybe people just shouldn't care. That seems like a bit of a kop out though.