Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

The Golden Miller

Someone made another good point in the thread earlier, the only reason the old gaurd are in the film is for promotion and fan service, with Disney trying their best to shoehorn them out of the story as soon as possible so they can do their own thing. Star Wars is the story of the Skywalker's, particularity the rise and fall of Anakin. If they stray from that, it should no longer be called Star Wars, it should be renamed like the spin-offs, a "Star Wars Story". It's like having a Spider-man film with no Spider-man. Obviously Ben Solo is a Skywalker, but seeing as the protagonist isn't, they are slowly moving away from the Skywalker's, and I'd say the new trilogy will be unrelated to them completely. The final showdown in episode 9 should have been Ben v Luke, with Luke triumphing. Complete cop out to kill him off, other than lame excuses like "unbalancing the force", making it up as they go along.

Anakin and Luke are the most powerful Jedi's, and potentially Ben in time with his bloodline, but Luke could end the reformed Empire by himself. Sad to see Luke, a popular culture icon of goodness and a "fight til the end" spirit (in the face of the two most powerful Siths trying to turn him), basically go out on a whimper and give up. And I'm pissed writing this, sorry for the bad articulation, Luke's portrayal just annoyed me. Giving up because Ben Solo had a sh!t fit, pull the other one! Then his reasoning that as long as there is Jedi, their will be Sith, so the Jedi should end? Even if their were no Jedi, the Sith (or other dark side wielders) would still try to conquer the galaxy. No way the Luke from the original trilogy would stand idly by, while millions die and planets get blown up, he would of hunted Ben and ended it long before this. Not havin' it!

The Golden Miller

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Agree with pretty much all of this. Don't buy the status quo they set up in these films at all. There was a natural progression in the original trilogy where due to the indeterminate amount of time between films you could imagine the rebels numbers growing with successes like the Deathstar to the point they took on the Imperial fleet directly in RotJ .

With TLJ we're at a point where the rebels are down to however many escaped on the Falcon at the end. So unless they plan on leaving the First Order still in control of the galaxy at the end of ep 9 they've left themselves with an unbelievable amount of ground to cover in one film.

Their solution will no doubt be to skip ahead 5-6 years (filling in the blanks in other mediums) and have the rebels suddenly be a force to be reckoned with, which will be rediculously jarring.

In their reluctant defense the most logical route for events to take in the post RotJ era had already been thoroughly explored in the infinitely superior old EU so unless they were going to adapt some of those books and pay royalties they were going to have to go a less sensible/rational route.

I agree, the original 6 episodes were one envisaged story, the natural progression of the universe fit, even taking into account how bad the prequals were and minor plotholes all over the place. The premise of the new 3, is a forced progression, convoluted just for the sake of a story. That's why this film feels so disjointed like the DC universe, the story jumping all over the place to fit in and tie up unrelated happenings that would never normally come together or play out as we seen. The natural progression would be a galaxy ruled by the Republic to every corner, even any rumour of an Empire rump would be hunted down. Ben goes bad, flee's and gains a few dedicated followers, and Luke has to take him down....or something of that nature. It took Sidious years of political corruption, deceit, and puppeetering to pull it off, the First Order take over the galaxy in 2 minutes. Pure and utter nonsense

Maxpfizer

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I agree, the original 6 episodes were one envisaged story, the natural progression of the universe fit, even taking into account how bad the prequals were and minor plotholes all over the place. The premise of the new 3, is a forced progression, convoluted just for the sake of a story. That's why this film feels so disjointed like the DC universe, the story jumping all over the place to fit in and tie up unrelated happenings that would never normally come together or play out as we seen. The natural progression would be a galaxy ruled by the Republic to every corner, even any rumour of an Empire rump would be hunted down. Ben goes bad, flee's and gains a few dedicated followers, and Luke has to take him down....or something of that nature. It took Sidious years of political corruption, deceit, and puppeetering to pull it off, the First Order take over the galaxy in 2 minutes. Pure and utter nonsense

I think that's a good take on it. The original 6 do feel somewhat natural and the episodes 7, 8 and (probably) 9 feel like an unnatural extension of that story.

Even the story you described sounds good but doesn't have the "epic" feel of IV, V and VI (and to a lesser extend the entire 6 episode saga).

Luke vs Ben is kind of like a mini-story that could be tacked on in a video game concept or something but it's not full blown Star Wars greatness.

There is a mismatch between what Star Wars fans will accept regarding the lore and the greater universe and what the regular movie watchers who provide a massive chunk of the profits will accept.

For some its a 2 hour movie plus many tens of hours discussing and dissecting and exploring. For others it's a good time at the cinema before never thinking about it again until the next one.

As a Star Wars fan I would have wanted all the new movies to focus on the history of the galaxy and the force and how some of the main players came to be who they are.

I wish that 2016-present Star Wars could have been to the 6 episode saga as The Silmarillion is to The Lord of the Rings.

I would have wanted Lucas to be involved. It's his universe. Maybe he wouldn't be writing the stories but it feels so inauthentic (that's a word?) to have the new lore just begin written by random movie people.

A few things I would pick out are things like Leia flying through space is basically the most insane and powerful use of the force we've seen in the movies and it just kind of comes from nowhere. Also we have Lukes projection and that's another power that just comes at us from nowhere.

They wanted to make more movies so they needed new stuff for characters to do BUT those characters had already completed their entire character arcs in the original trilogy so they literally had to just make something up.

Nobody really cares so I suppose there's that at least. It really REALLY sucks to actually care about Star Wars these days.

david75

Ii definitely care and others too don’t worry:)

t’s probably little comfort but TLJ works roughly off Georges idea was for the follow up trilogy. Luke having an academy and a student who goes bad and upends it all. Lucas even spoke to Johnson about it. (You see this chat being set up in the making of doco and it’s mentioned in the art of the last Jedi book).

It’s not really going out on a whimper. It’s the most Jedi thing possible. ‘Jedi Never use their power for attack. Only for defence’. So he defeats kylo by not actually engaging.

Luke has to die in this trilogy at some point. The only other option was to have kylo or Snoke kill him. Think we can all agree the outrage if that had happened would be never ending. And a horrible end for him. Our hero can’t be defeated by the bad guy.
The point of canto bight and the kids was to show by his sacrifice he’s now a legend galaxy wide and everyone’s heard about it and it’s inspired hope and rebellion. That’s a bigger victory than if he’d been force superman and just wrecked all the walkers and first order ships. That would be a fleeting and empty little victory.

Leias has some training off luke in the years after ROTJ. It’s implied she’s actually more powerful than him and Yoda wanted her to be the one but she had no interest in going down that road.
Luke’s projection thing I thought was brilliant. He’s discovered all these capabilities probably mostly forgotten and he’s pretty much self taught too.

I know most of us don’t have the time but if you read the novelisation of TLJ it expands on all this stuff. It’s annoying you have to read the book to get answers the film should give you but to it’s credit it’s the best novelisation of any of the films to date.

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

Ii definitely care and others too don’t worry:)

t’s probably little comfort but TLJ works roughly off Georges idea was for the follow up trilogy. Luke having an academy and a student who goes bad and upends it all. Lucas even spoke to Johnson about it. (You see this chat being set up in the making of doco and it’s mentioned in the art of the last Jedi book).

It’s not really going out on a whimper. It’s the most Jedi thing possible. ‘Jedi Never use their power for attack. Only for defence’. So he defeats kylo by not actually engaging.

Luke has to die in this trilogy at some point. The only other option was to have kylo or Snoke kill him. Think we can all agree the outrage if that had happened would be never ending. And a horrible end for him. Our hero can’t be defeated by the bad guy.
The point of canto bight and the kids was to show by his sacrifice he’s now a legend galaxy wide and everyone’s heard about it and it’s inspired hope and rebellion. That’s a bigger victory than if he’d been force superman and just wrecked all the walkers and first order ships. That would be a fleeting and empty little victory.

Leias has some training off luke in the years after ROTJ. It’s implied she’s actually more powerful than him and Yoda wanted her to be the one but she had no interest in going down that road.
Luke’s projection thing I thought was brilliant. He’s discovered all these capabilities probably mostly forgotten and he’s pretty much self taught too.

I know most of us don’t have the time but if you read the novelisation of TLJ it expands on all this stuff. It’s annoying you have to read the book to get answers the film should give you but to it’s credit it’s the best novelisation of any of the films to date.

It's terrible writing and film making is what it is.

david75

If you say so

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

If you say so

I do, i insist.

david75

You can not like the story or writing but you’re the very first person I’ve seen saying it’s a badly made film. It’s fvckin stunning visually imo. Nothing in Star Wars comes close except a few scale shots in rogue one maybe.
Looking forward to seeing the silent version with just the score playing over it. Sposed to be amazing.

Arne_Saknussem

Story & writing are part of film making. There are some technically impressive shots but they should serve the story, not sacrifice it for your money shot.

Bad film making.

david75

I’d disagree but taste should never be argued I guess.

Maxpfizer

david75 wrote: »

Ii definitely care and others too don’t worry:)

t’s probably little comfort but TLJ works roughly off Georges idea was for the follow up trilogy. Luke having an academy and a student who goes bad and upends it all. Lucas even spoke to Johnson about it. (You see this chat being set up in the making of doco and it’s mentioned in the art of the last Jedi book).

It’s not really going out on a whimper. It’s the most Jedi thing possible. ‘Jedi Never use their power for attack. Only for defence’. So he defeats kylo by not actually engaging.

Luke has to die in this trilogy at some point. The only other option was to have kylo or Snoke kill him. Think we can all agree the outrage if that had happened would be never ending. And a horrible end for him. Our hero can’t be defeated by the bad guy.
The point of canto bight and the kids was to show by his sacrifice he’s now a legend galaxy wide and everyone’s heard about it and it’s inspired hope and rebellion. That’s a bigger victory than if he’d been force superman and just wrecked all the walkers and first order ships. That would be a fleeting and empty little victory.

Leias has some training off luke in the years after ROTJ. It’s implied she’s actually more powerful than him and Yoda wanted her to be the one but she had no interest in going down that road.
Luke’s projection thing I thought was brilliant. He’s discovered all these capabilities probably mostly forgotten and he’s pretty much self taught too.

I know most of us don’t have the time but if you read the novelisation of TLJ it expands on all this stuff. It’s annoying you have to read the book to get answers the film should give you but to it’s credit it’s the best novelisation of any of the films to date.

In my mind I guess I just have this "unicorns and rainbows" ideal for how it should have all ended after ROTJ. Luke, Leia and Han, Chewie, R2 and 3PO, Lando all went on to live out their days in peace after vanquishing the Empire.

Instead they brought them back and urgh. Han and Leia didn't work out but their kid was a Jedi so that's good? No wait, the kid was tempted by the Dark Side and good old Uncle Luke had a brain fart and decided "I'll murder him... nah... oops he saw me UH OH" and Han and Leias child became a murderous psychopath that needs to be taken down by this random collection of characters.

I know it's like realistic or some bullsh*t but it's just kind of grim and miserable to me and it's all over some low stakes stuff. Some guy Snoke is running a mini empire or something? Better shut that down unceremoniously.

It's like Star Wars Lite or Diet Star Wars or something. Star Wars Zero/Max.

The prequels were needless and kind of bad. The sequels are even more needless but less bad so there is at least that. I find them to be watchable but I always think "why".

david75

Maxpfizer wrote: »

In my mind I guess I just have this "unicorns and rainbows" ideal for how it should have all ended after ROTJ. Luke, Leia and Han, Chewie, R2 and 3PO, Lando all went on to live out their days in peace after vanquishing the Empire.

Instead they brought them back and urgh. Han and Leia didn't work out but their kid was a Jedi so that's good? No wait, the kid was tempted by the Dark Side and good old Uncle Luke had a brain fart and decided "I'll murder him... nah... oops he saw me UH OH" and Han and Leias child became a murderous psychopath that needs to be taken down by this random collection of characters.

I know it's like realistic or some bullsh*t but it's just kind of grim and miserable to me and it's all over some low stakes stuff. Some guy Snoke is running a mini empire or something? Better shut that down unceremoniously.

It's like Star Wars Lite or Diet Star Wars or something. Star Wars Zero/Max.

The prequels were needless and kind of bad. The sequels are even more needless but less bad so there is at least that. I find them to be watchable but I always think "why".

Yeah I get ye. There’s good arguments to be made both sides that if they made new Star Wars they should have left all the old cast out and work from a clean slate rather than carrying threads from the OT. But looking at it since the new films were first announced the only conclusion I’ve come to is, no matter what they did, they will be making some element of fandom unhappy.
I’m guessing the happy medium was to involve the old cast but phase them out as the trilogy goes on. As we’re seeing. And you have people saying they shouldn’t have been there in the first place and others saying they shouldn’t be killing them off. I dunno. I’m excited to see how JJ wraps all this up.

As to the other two trilogies, god only knows. All I want is an Obi wan film. It’s all gravy after that.

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

It’s not really going out on a whimper. It’s the most Jedi thing possible. ‘Jedi Never use their power for attack. Only for defence’. So he defeats kylo by not actually engaging.

While certainly appearing as a force ghost is the ultimate in non engagement, that point and extreme use of the force could have just as easily been replicated by having him physically be there, topple a few AtAt into eachother, and dodge all of Kylos attacks until he knew the rebels had escaped then do an Obi-wan.

david75 wrote: »

The point of canto bight and the kids was to show by his sacrifice he’s now a legend galaxy wide and everyone’s heard about it and it’s inspired hope and rebellion. That’s a bigger victory than if he’d been force superman and just wrecked all the walkers and first order ships. That would be a fleeting and empty little victory.

If those kids knew the particulars of what Luke did and how he did it at all, I think they would be more impressed by him being physically there and "wrecking the walkers" then force projecting himself across the galaxy. Kids are visceral like that. Besides on the rebels side I'd imagine Leia was the only one who knew he wasnt physically there and she doesn't seem like the type to boast. Everybody else was trying to escape through the tunnels when his magic trick was revealed. The only people who could have propogated the legend of what happened would be the Imperials in those walkers. Anyways my point is his sacrifice and legend would have been in no way diminished by having had him be physically there .

Falthyron

PhiloCypher wrote: »

While certainly appearing as a force ghost is the ultimate in non engagement, that point and extreme use of the force could have just as easily been replicated by having him physically be there, topple a few AtAt into eachother, and dodge all of Kylos attacks until he knew the rebels had escaped then do an Obi-wan.



If those kids knew the particulars of what Luke did and how he did it at all, I think they would be more impressed by him being physically there and "wrecking the walkers" then force projecting himself across the galaxy. Kids are visceral like that. Besides I'd imagine Leia was the only one who knew he wasnt physically there and she doesn't seem like the type to boast. Everybody else was trying to escape through the tunnels when his magic trick was revealed. The only people who propogated the legend of what happened would be the Imperials in those walkers. Anyways my point is his sacrifice and legend would have been in no way diminished by having had him be physically there .

Rian wanted his twist, his gimmick to catch people off-guard. Reinforced by this idea that Luke would 'never leave this island', it begs the question as to how much of the story was influenced by Rian wanting to look smart and pull the rabbit out of the hat at the very end rather than deliver a more genuine Luke.

Arne_Saknussem

Falthyron wrote: »

Rian wanted his twist, his gimmick to catch people off-guard. Reinforced by this idea that Luke would 'never leave this island', it begs the question as to how much of the story was influenced by Rian wanting to look smart and pull the rabbit out of the hat at the very end rather than deliver a more genuine Luke.

The film contains a series of these gimmicky 'gotcha' moments substituted in in place of a coherent plot.

As one reviewer put it Subversion over Substance.

david75

Falthyron wrote: »

Rian wanted his twist, his gimmick to catch people off-guard. Reinforced by this idea that Luke would 'never leave this island', it begs the question as to how much of the story was influenced by Rian wanting to look smart and pull the rabbit out of the hat at the very end rather than deliver a more genuine Luke.

There’s a doco on the Blu ray called Balance of the force where he explains all of his decisions about Luke. Think the trailer for it is on the previous page. It’s great stuff.

J Mysterio

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Someone made another good point in the thread earlier, the only reason the old gaurd are in the film is for promotion and fan service, with Disney trying their best to shoehorn them out of the story as soon as possible so they can do their own thing. Star Wars is the story of the Skywalker's, particularity the rise and fall of Anakin. If they stray from that, it should no longer be called Star Wars, it should be renamed like the spin-offs, a "Star Wars Story". It's like having a Spider-man film with no Spider-man. Obviously Ben Solo is a Skywalker, but seeing as the protagonist isn't, they are slowly moving away from the Skywalker's, and I'd say the new trilogy will be unrelated to them completely. The final showdown in episode 9 should have been Ben v Luke, with Luke triumphing. Complete cop out to kill him off, other than lame excuses like "unbalancing the force", making it up as they go along.

Anakin and Luke are the most powerful Jedi's, and potentially Ben in time with his bloodline, but Luke could end the reformed Empire by himself. Sad to see Luke, a popular culture icon of goodness and a "fight til the end" spirit (in the face of the two most powerful Siths trying to turn him), basically go out on a whimper and give up. And I'm pissed writing this, sorry for the bad articulation, Luke's portrayal just annoyed me. Giving up because Ben Solo had a sh!t fit, pull the other one! Then his reasoning that as long as there is Jedi, their will be Sith, so the Jedi should end? Even if their were no Jedi, the Sith (or other dark side wielders) would still try to conquer the galaxy. No way the Luke from the original trilogy would stand idly by, while millions die and planets get blown up, he would of hunted Ben and ended it long before this. Not havin' it!

100%

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

There’s a doco on the Blu ray called Balance of the force where he explains all of his decisions about Luke. Think the trailer for it is on the previous page. It’s great stuff.

I'll wait for the Bluray, but Luke (by his very nature) has always been compulsive, much like his father, except his compulsion drives him to help strangers, friends, causes. He didn't know Leia, but went out of his way to rescue her. In Empire, he defied his masters and went to save Han, Leia, Chewie, et al. And, in Return of the Jedi, despite having lost his hand and almost been killed by his own father, he is compelled and convinced that Darth Vader could be turned.

After all of his talk about the Jedi needing to end, the endless cycle of violence between Jedi and Sith, he gives up only to allow for the rise of Rey as a Jedi and a re-ignition of the Jedi/Sith wars through Rey and Ben? It doesn't really make sense. In the trailer you referenced Rian uses the word 'coward' to describe Luke, but its an inconceivable word when you consider everything we learned and saw in Luke in the original trilogy.

The Luke I know from the original trilogy would never have tried to kill Ben. If he managed to bring his father back after much of his life on the darkside, then he should know he could bring back a young boy. Even after Darth Vader tried to kill him, his friends, took his hand, etc., Luke was convinced he could save his father. But, this boy who had done nothing but have bad dreams was lost? Please...

So, if Rian was convinced of going down this path of Ben falling to the darkside, the Luke I remember would have done everything in his power to bring him back, much like his father. In fact, the added reasons for doing so would stem from the fact that he would have felt more responsible with Ben being his best friend's and sister's son.

The story of Luke in this film would have been better suited to two different approaches: done with a different character (perhaps Lor San Tekka) or gone full gray Jedi as I advocated originally. That is: Luke teaches Rey that she must learn and embrace both sides of the Force in order to understand and defeat her enemy, to become a more complete user of the Force.

david75

Falthyron wrote: »

I'll wait for the Bluray, but Luke (by his very nature) has always been compulsive, much like his father, except his compulsion drives him to help strangers, friends, causes. He didn't know Leia, but went out of his way to rescue her. In Empire, he defied his masters and went to save Han, Leia, Chewie, et al. And, in Return of the Jedi, despite having lost his hand and almost been killed by his own father, he is compelled and convinced that Darth Vader could be turned.

After all of his talk about the Jedi needing to end, the endless cycle of violence between Jedi and Sith, he gives up only to allow for the rise of Rey as a Jedi and a re-ignition of the Jedi/Sith wars through Rey and Ben? It doesn't really make sense. In the trailer you referenced Rian uses the word 'coward' to describe Luke, but its an inconceivable word when you consider everything we learned and saw in Luke in the original trilogy.

The Luke I know from the original trilogy would never have tried to kill Ben. If he managed to bring his father back after much of his life on the darkside, then he should know he could bring back a young boy. Even after Darth Vader tried to kill him, his friends, took his hand, etc., Luke was convinced he could save his father. But, this boy who had done nothing but have bad dreams was lost? Please...

So, if Rian was convinced of going down this path of Ben falling to the darkside, the Luke I remember would have done everything in his power to bring him back, much like his father. In fact, the added reasons for doing so would stem from the fact that he would have felt more responsible with Ben being his best friend's and sister's son.

The story of Luke in this film would have been better suited to two different approaches: done with a different character (perhaps Lor San Tekka) or gone full gray Jedi as I advocated originally. That is: Luke teaches Rey that she must learn and embrace both sides of the Force in order to understand and defeat her enemy, to become a more complete user of the Force.

Think you misheard that. Johnson said he isn’t being some coward hiding on an island. He knows if he gets involved it’ll be the worse thing possible for all involved.

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

Think you misheard that. Johnson said he isn’t being some coward hiding on an island. He knows if he gets involved it’ll be the worse thing possible for all involved.

Ah, fair point. Still though, I don't like the idea of suggesting Luke might be a coward for going to Ahch-To. In the end, the very premise of him going there goes against my understanding of Luke's character. As I mentioned above, the Luke I know would have compulsively and assiduously tracked Ben wherever he went to get him back before he would do harm to others or himself. In fact, he might have even got the old team of Han and Leia and Chewie back together to go and find Ben. Hmm... an inversion of the Force Awakens. Instead of everyone trying to find Luke, Luke and the old gang are trying to find Ben. Could have been an interesting film!

tigger123

People change though. The person you are as a teenager or young man is likely to be vastly different to the person you are in your 60s.

The idea that "Luke would never, ever do xyz" because it doesn't fit with his character before doesn't add up for me.

His character in TLJ was broken, cynical, destroyed by what had happened in his past.

Even in the original trilogy he was tempted to the dark side. He has that darkness in him.

david75

It’s elaborated on that the island has long been a place of pilgrimage for Jedi throughout the ages, and that he’s gone there to learn from the original Jedi texts. I’d love to see the film as you described it and I *think* there’s still room for something like that in the upcoming series or books. They seem to have suggested that Jaycen Syndula is going to grow up to be a Jedi (this in Rebels) and he’s about the same age as Ben, so folks are guessing we’re going to get something about Luke and his academy and perhaps the two of them turn and join Snoke.

Have a funny feeling Johnson’s trilogy is going to be about the prime Jedi (the one in the mosaic you see Luke and Rey sitting beside). God only knows.

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

Think you misheard that. Johnson said he isn’t being some coward hiding on an island. He knows if he gets involved it’ll be the worse thing possible for all involved.

How exactly ? That he'd inspire more force sensitive people to want to become Jedi, an order he wants to see end with him ?

I find his logic daft tbh. The Order dissappearing wouldnt stop force sensitive people from emerging and becoming powerful force users, Rey is proof of that. All it would mean is they would have no positive role models to aspire to and would be more likely to go down a bad path if they'd had a rough childhood.

david75

PhiloCypher wrote: »

How exactly ? That he'd inspire more force sensitive people to want to become Jedi, an order he wants to see end with him ?

I find his logic daft tbh. The Order dissappearing wouldnt stop force sensitive people from emerging and becoming powerful force users, Rey is proof of that. All it would mean is they would have no positive role models to aspire to and would be more likely to go down a bad path if they'd had a rough childhood.

That’s what his position is i and what we see in the prequels. The Jedi order made a balls of it all by climbing up its own ass and being complacent. Plus all the dogma didn’t help. He’s against all that, not against force users learning per se. He just doesn’t think he’s the man for the job given he failed with Ben.

Something interesting though is that the Jedi order would know (somehow) where force sensitive kids were born throughout the galaxy and go and take them to become Jedi.

It’s never been explained what happened to those families or kids that didn’t want to go. So you have a great point, therell always be force capable people in the galaxy. And with no order or orginisation there to guide them what happens then? Like broom boy at the end of TLJ.
This I think we might see dealt with in 9. Or maybe we’re not sposed to wonder too much w out it? I dunno.

J Mysterio

Falthyron wrote: »

I'll wait for the Bluray, but Luke (by his very nature) has always been compulsive, much like his father, except his compulsion drives him to help strangers, friends, causes. He didn't know Leia, but went out of his way to rescue her. In Empire, he defied his masters and went to save Han, Leia, Chewie, et al. And, in Return of the Jedi, despite having lost his hand and almost been killed by his own father, he is compelled and convinced that Darth Vader could be turned.

After all of his talk about the Jedi needing to end, the endless cycle of violence between Jedi and Sith, he gives up only to allow for the rise of Rey as a Jedi and a re-ignition of the Jedi/Sith wars through Rey and Ben? It doesn't really make sense. In the trailer you referenced Rian uses the word 'coward' to describe Luke, but its an inconceivable word when you consider everything we learned and saw in Luke in the original trilogy.

The Luke I know from the original trilogy would never have tried to kill Ben. If he managed to bring his father back after much of his life on the darkside, then he should know he could bring back a young boy. Even after Darth Vader tried to kill him, his friends, took his hand, etc., Luke was convinced he could save his father. But, this boy who had done nothing but have bad dreams was lost? Please...

So, if Rian was convinced of going down this path of Ben falling to the darkside, the Luke I remember would have done everything in his power to bring him back, much like his father. In fact, the added reasons for doing so would stem from the fact that he would have felt more responsible with Ben being his best friend's and sister's son.

The story of Luke in this film would have been better suited to two different approaches: done with a different character (perhaps Lor San Tekka) or gone full gray Jedi as I advocated originally. That is: Luke teaches Rey that she must learn and embrace both sides of the Force in order to understand and defeat her enemy, to become a more complete user of the Force.

Boom - 10/10.

david75

WOuld have been awesome had he been a master of both. I was hoping for that too. And to see him be a badass. Here we are though.
Think a lot of our disappointments stems from it didn’t do what we want. Getting that out of the way and looking at the decisions made for him as they stand is tricky but doable. The extras stuff helped me a lot. Still don’t think Hamill is happy. He says as much a few times in them.

Ah well. He’s of more use narratively as a force ghost anyways. Especially if he turns up to haunt Kylo

Wedwood

Falthyron wrote: »

I'll wait for the Bluray, but Luke (by his very nature) has always been compulsive, much like his father, except his compulsion drives him to help strangers, friends, causes. He didn't know Leia, but went out of his way to rescue her. In Empire, he defied his masters and went to save Han, Leia, Chewie, et al. And, in Return of the Jedi, despite having lost his hand and almost been killed by his own father, he is compelled and convinced that Darth Vader could be turned.

After all of his talk about the Jedi needing to end, the endless cycle of violence between Jedi and Sith, he gives up only to allow for the rise of Rey as a Jedi and a re-ignition of the Jedi/Sith wars through Rey and Ben? It doesn't really make sense. In the trailer you referenced Rian uses the word 'coward' to describe Luke, but its an inconceivable word when you consider everything we learned and saw in Luke in the original trilogy.

The Luke I know from the original trilogy would never have tried to kill Ben. If he managed to bring his father back after much of his life on the darkside, then he should know he could bring back a young boy. Even after Darth Vader tried to kill him, his friends, took his hand, etc., Luke was convinced he could save his father. But, this boy who had done nothing but have bad dreams was lost? Please...

So, if Rian was convinced of going down this path of Ben falling to the darkside, the Luke I remember would have done everything in his power to bring him back, much like his father. In fact, the added reasons for doing so would stem from the fact that he would have felt more responsible with Ben being his best friend's and sister's son.

The story of Luke in this film would have been better suited to two different approaches: done with a different character (perhaps Lor San Tekka) or gone full gray Jedi as I advocated originally. That is: Luke teaches Rey that she must learn and embrace both sides of the Force in order to understand and defeat her enemy, to become a more complete user of the Force.

therein lies the divisiveness of the movie - I would have left the cinema if we had got the above version of TLJ. That version of Luke would have resembled Mace Windu, the most boring 'all powerful Jedi'. The best movies tend to have flawed heroes who struggle with the problems thrown at them. TLJ delivered on that score IMHO.

david75

That is the flip side. If we had gotten all powerful Jedi master teaching Rey then coming to wreck the first order kill Snoke and showdown with kylo it would have been a boring generic marvel film. Completely uninteresting and predictable and totally safe. None of us would be happy.
I’ll take one that challenges us and takes Star Wars forward in a new and unexpected way as TLJ has over that other option.

J Mysterio

david75 wrote: »

That is the flip side. If we had gotten all powerful Jedi master teaching Rey then coming to wreck the first order kill Snoke and showdown with kylo it would have been a boring generic marvel film. Completely uninteresting and predictable and totally safe. None of us would be happy.
I’ll take one that challenges us and takes Star Wars forward in a new and unexpected way as TLJ has over that other option.

To be fair, Marvel are actually pushing the boundaries and challenging norms with films like Deadpool and Logan.

The Golden Miller

david75 wrote: »

WOuld have been awesome had he been a master of both. I was hoping for that too. And to see him be a badass. Here we are though.
Think a lot of our disappointments stems from it didn’t do what we want. Getting that out of the way and looking at the decisions made for him as they stand is tricky but doable. The extras stuff helped me a lot. Still don’t think Hamill is happy. He says as much a few times in them.

Ah well. He’s of more use narratively as a force ghost anyways. Especially if he turns up to haunt Kylo

I think that only applies to a point. We all have our head canon, but this last film was quite jarring for numerous reasons. The original trilogy ran many parallels, and was really an analogy, to the rise and fall of Nazi Germany. The problem is after Nazi Germany fell, natural progression meant the people were overly aware of never letting it happen again, they would snuff out any rump; rumour or otherwise. That's why the whole premise of the First Order rising and conquering the galaxy again holds no merit for me, regardless of how they try to explain it off. They universe is fictional, but even in the reality of this given universe, this is far-fetched stuff.

TFA was a rerun of ANH, completely safe to present the original story to a new generation in effect, whereas this went to the other extreme. I think most people would of been happy with a fine medium of the two, something brand new but credible and builds on the lore in a positive way, not a controversial way.