Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

That is the flip side. If we had gotten all powerful Jedi master teaching Rey then coming to wreck the first order kill Snoke and showdown with kylo it would have been a boring generic marvel film. Completely uninteresting and predictable and totally safe. None of us would be happy.
I’ll take one that challenges us and takes Star Wars forward in a new and unexpected way as TLJ has over that other option.

The film could have been saved for me had Rey's entreaties to Luke that Kylo wasn't beyond saving worked, and he had physically left Arch-Too to try and do just that instead of taunting him. Had he done that, it would have gone some way to make up for the creative decision to make him abandon Kylo and the Republic to their fate in the first place.

david75

J Mysterio wrote: »

To be fair, Marvel are actually pushing the boundaries and challenging norms with films like Deadpool and Logan.

Two brilliant and notable exceptions. I was referring to the repetitive and forgettable marvel cookie cutter conveyer belt.
If Luke had come back all powerful and invincible sure it would have been great spectacle but unworthy and boring and generic.

The Golden Miller

I think another jarring aspect of the new trilogy, is that when we left our hero's last after ROTJ, they were alive and well. For decades later, they were still alive, ingrained in popular culture. The new characters simply aren't as interesting or have the dept of the original cast, which makes it harder to accept the passing of the torch in a positive light. So really, what have we waited decades for? As it turns out, little more than seeing our favorite characters suffer onscreen deaths.

Anakins arc ran for 6 episodes as being the main character, 1-6, Luke's could of done the same, 4-9. Focus on his relationship with Ben more and have it an all Skywalker affair, culminating in the final showdown in Episode 9 with Luke's triumph......he gets the story and send off he deserves, not a cheap death. Then the torch could of been passed onto Rey to start a new trilogy, fitting also on the level that it would of been the start of a new era away from the Skywalkers, a clean break onto something new, but instead we get the Skywalker clan slowly drip-fed out of the universe

david75

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I think another jarring aspect of the new trilogy, is that when we left our hero's last after ROTJ, they were alive and well. For decades later, they were still alive, ingrained in popular culture. The new characters simply aren't as interesting or have the dept of the original cast, which makes it harder to accept the passing of the torch in a positive light. So really, what have we waited decades for? As it turns out, little more than seeing our favorite characters suffer onscreen deaths.

Anakins arc ran for 6 episodes as being the main character, 1-6, Luke's could of done the same, 4-9. Focus on his relationship with Ben more and have it an all Skywalker affair, culminating in the final showdown in Episode 9 with Luke's triumph......he gets the story and send off he deserves, not a cheap death. Then the torch could of been passed onto Rey to start a new trilogy, fitting also on the level that it would of been the start of a new era away from the Skywalkers, a clean break onto something new, but instead we get the Skywalker clan slowly drip-fed out of the universe

I kind of agree but there’s another side to it. These new characters are as engaging and likeable and probably more interesting as the OT cast were.

Simply put they’re written to be relatable to younger audiences. Not us. (I love Rey and don’t understand anyone’s gripes with her. She plays it perfect).

Luke is a whiney little bitch in 4 and becomes an aspirational figure in 5 and a superhero in 6.
Leia is a complete bitch in 4, a great leader yet nothing but a love interest in 5 and has nothing at all to do of value in 6.
Han is a loveable capable hero 4 and 5 and totally neutered and disinterested in 6.
We hold the OT up on a weird pedestal sometimes but fact is they’re flawed and patchy at best in these regards when it comes to character arcs and writing.

There’s an entire generation out there now that the OT does nothing for them. Their Star Wars is Rebels or the prequels or the new trilogy. Millions of little kids have Rey where we had Luke.

They could have totally ignored luke Leia and han and just moved on without them but there’d have been outrage. So they put them in and set them up to pass the torch on. We might not like how it’s done. I wasn’t happy about Han dying. But overall what better way to kill him and give the bad guy agency while sending him off having to pay penance for abandoning his son and never being there for him (as kylo sees it).

Either way we won’t know til this is all wrapped up.

The Golden Miller

david75 wrote: »

I kind of agree but there’s another side to it. These new characters are as engaging and likeable and probably more interesting as the OT cast were.

Simply put they’re written to be relatable to younger audiences. Not us. (I love Rey and don’t understand anyone’s gripes with her. She plays it perfect).

Luke is a whiney little bitch in 4 and becomes an aspirational figure in 5 and a superhero in 6.
Leia is a complete bitch in 4, a great leader yet nothing but a love interest in 5 and has nothing at all to do of value in 6.
Han is a loveable capable hero 4 and 5 and totally neutered and disinterested in 6.
We hold the OT up on a weird pedestal sometimes but fact is they’re flawed and patchy at best in these regards when it comes to character arcs and writing.

There’s an entire generation out there now that the OT does nothing for them. Their Star Wars is Rebels or the prequels or the new trilogy. Millions of little kids have Rey where we had Luke.

They could have totally ignored luke Leia and han and just moved on without them but there’d have been outrage. So they put them in and set them up to pass the torch on. We might not like how it’s done. I wasn’t happy about Han dying. But overall what better way to kill him and give the bad guy agency while sending him off having to pay penance for abandoning his son and never being there for him (as kylo sees it).

Either way we won’t know til this is all wrapped up.

Well I think with the original cast, they are simply likable characters. And I agree with you on Rey, I like her, and I think she should of been introduced in this trilogy to be set up as the main character in the next set of films. But Poe and Finn? The former is an extremely poor mans version of Han, while the latter is totally pointless, and seemingly only there just to have a trio. Neither of the characters are bad, I'm just indifferent to them and don't really care how they end up.

I think alot of people were looking forward to seeing Luke at a different stage in his life, having the wise personality that Obi Wan started to show in Episode 3. We seen Anakin at different stages of his life, and Obi Wan too from being a Padawan to Master, but we haven't really with Luke. Just some snippets on an island without him really doing anything. So I guess that was a let down for people too.

The thing about Star Wars is, it is ultimately the battle of good v evil. In a way it's that simplicity that's made it pure and popular to the point it's transcended films to become a popular culture juggernaut, where people of all ages and walks of life can relate to it. So I think keeping the story basic and inline with the most realistic outcome of how events would of played out after ROTJ was the order of the day, not tampering with the characteristics and lives of iconic characters in the way of Rian Johnsons curveballs for the sake of controversy. Take Rogue One for example, people just wanted to see a solid and entertaining film, a space battle of good v evil, which added to the lore and world building of the universe. Die hard fans and casual viewers left more than happy.

IncognitoMan

J Mysterio wrote: »

To be fair, Marvel are actually pushing the boundaries and challenging norms with films like Deadpool and Logan.

david75 wrote: »

Two brilliant and notable exceptions. I was referring to the repetitive and forgettable marvel cookie cutter conveyer belt.
If Luke had come back all powerful and invincible sure it would have been great spectacle but unworthy and boring and generic.

Also two films made by Fox and not Disney's Marvel studio like Iron-Man, Captain America etc.

david75

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well I think with the original cast, they are simply likable characters. And I agree with you on Rey, I like her, and I think she should of been introduced in this trilogy to be set up as the main character in the next set of films. But Poe and Finn? The former is an extremely poor mans version of Han, while the latter is totally pointless, and seemingly only there just to have a trio. Neither of the characters are bad, I'm just indifferent to them and don't really care how they end up.

I think alot of people were looking forward to seeing Luke at a different stage in his life, having the wise personality that Obi Wan started to show in Episode 3. We seen Anakin at different stages of his life, and Obi Wan too from being a Padawan to Master, but we haven't really with Luke. Just some snippets on an island without him really doing anything. So I guess that was a let down for people too.

The thing about Star Wars is, it is ultimately the battle of good v evil. In a way it's that simplicity that's made it pure and popular to the point it's transcended films to become a popular culture juggernaut, where people of all ages and walks of life can relate to it. So I think keeping the story basic and inline with the most realistic outcome of how events would of played out after ROTJ was the order of the day, not tampering with the characteristics and lives of iconic characters in the way of Rian Johnsons curveballs for the sake of controversy. Take Rogue One for example, people just wanted to see a solid and entertaining film, a space battle of good v evil, which added to the lore and world building of the universe. Die hard fans and casual viewers left more than happy.

You hit the nail on the head. The whole world after seeing TFA and freaking out and going on endlessly ‘it’s just a remake of a new hope!’ Expected this to be a remake of empire. It wasn’t at all. And within that we all had expectations of Luke and everything else. We were all completely wrong.
In that I think we’re seeing people getting annoyed cos they were wrong and it didn’t meet their expectations. I’m annoyed too (the lightsaber over the shoulder I will never forgive that). But he’s far more interesting being a flawed failed hero then he is a Jedi superman saving the day.

*im half cut and for bed sorry

PhiloCypher

david75 wrote: »

You hit the nail on the head. The whole world after seeing TFA and freaking out and going on endlessly ‘it’s just a remake of a new hope!’ Expected this to be a remake of empire. It wasn’t at all. And within that we all had expectations of Luke and everything else. We were all completely wrong.
In that I think we’re seeing people getting annoyed cos they were wrong and it didn’t meet their expectations. I’m annoyed too (the lightsaber over the shoulder I will never forgive that). But he’s far more interesting being a flawed failed hero then he is a Jedi superman saving the day.

*im half cut and for bed sorry

That TLJ hasn't been accused of remaking ESB is down to people being distracted by the curveball character decisions. The films are structurally very similar .

* Both start with the Imperials finding the rebel Base and an exodus ensuing. TLJ just moves the walker assault until the end of the movie.

* both movies split the narrative between Rey/Luke training with Luke/Yoda and a chase between the imperials/First order and the Falcon/Rebel fleet. TLJ just dispenses with the astroid belt as it's too iconic a scene to reuse(they've been burned before).

* For Bespin/Cloud city see Canto Bight

* Both films see crusty old Jedi test their students patience and tempermant before agreeing to teach them.

* Both see Luke/Rey confront their demons in a cave

* Where Rian changes it up is he pulls the debate over whether Vader/Kylo can be saved, Lukes/Rey's surrender to Vader/Kylo and the Throne room scene from RotJ in to this film rather then just copying ESB from start to finish . So credit where credits due I suppose.

david75

Bang on. It’s some trick to actually echo those beats yet completely bury them. It loosely follows Our most beloved film yet the details / character decisions threw us all off. Kudos to Hamill especially. He brought it 100% despite being unhappy with it. That’s serious generosity on his part.

david75

Brilliant

https://twitter.com/kyloissad/status/976888929411452928?s=21

radonicus

david75 wrote: »

There’s a doco on the Blu ray called Balance of the force where he explains all of his decisions about Luke. Think the trailer for it is on the previous page. It’s great stuff.

Including having him milk a lactating sea-cow?

Arne_Saknussem

radonicus wrote: »

Including having him milk a lactating sea-cow?

david75

radonicus wrote: »

Including having him milk a lactating sea-cow?

There’s actually a whole thing about that and the hassle of building it and getting it to Kerry to film it

The Director and the Jedi doco is probably gonna be loved even by those most disappointed by TLJ. It’s a really bloody enjoyable film all on its own.

david75

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

Love that clip

uncleoswald

david75 wrote: »

Luke has to die in this trilogy at some point.

Did he though? Not saying I'm against him dying but it's incredibly predictable if one of the three main heroes take turns dying heroically in each film (obviously that has been somewhat scuppered by Fisher's death). This thinking is magnified by the way he died, where he just ceased to be because... it was his turn I guess.

david75

uncleoswald wrote: »

Did he though? Not saying I'm against him dying but it's incredibly predictable if one of the three main heroes take turns dying heroically in each film (obviously that has been somewhat scuppered by Fisher's death). This thinking is magnified by the way he died, where he just ceased to be because... it was his turn I guess.

Well you could make this trilogy without Leia or han and still have ben as their son and main antagonist. You can’t really do it without Luke though. So as usual following the hero’s journey norm, luke is the mentor and Rey, our new character and vehicle into the story, as student, it has to follow that in order for her to truly learn and take up the mantle, she has to suffer the loss of the mentor to ‘arrive’.

So there’s only two ways he can go. Defeated and slain by his upstart nephew or his master, (I shudder the the thought of that. You basically can’t have Snoke or kylo kill our hero. It would have seen angry mobs and pitch forks burning Lucasfilm and Disney down:) )
Or you can have him go out on his own terms and In control of the situation and as a Jedi. Undefeated and unbowed but sacrificing to save the rebellion.


Either way Star Wars always has the loophole of him turning back up as a force ghost. So he’s not really gone either. Win win.

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

Well you could make this trilogy without Leia or han and still have ben as their son and main antagonist. You can’t really do it without Luke though. So as usual following the hero’s journey norm, luke is the mentor and Rey, our new character and vehicle into the story, as student, it has to follow that in order for her to truly learn and take up the mantle, she has to suffer the loss of the mentor to ‘arrive’.

So there’s only two ways he can go. Defeated and slain by his upstart nephew or his master, (I shudder the the thought of that. You basically can’t have Snoke or kylo kill our hero. It would have seen angry mobs and pitch forks burning Lucasfilm and Disney down:) )
Or you can have him go out on his own terms and In control of the situation and as a Jedi. Undefeated and unbowed but sacrificing to save the rebellion.


Either way Star Wars always has the loophole of him turning back up as a force ghost. So he’s not really gone either. Win win.

There are endless ways you could go with the character, you'd just need a writer with imagination and talent.

Relikk

david75 wrote: »

It’s a really bloody enjoyable film all on its own.

There wasn't enough Daisy for my liking.

david75

Relikk wrote: »

There wasn't enough Daisy for my liking.

In the making of?
I noticed that.
The cast involvement is kept to literally one maybe two sound bytes and that’s It. But we heard them blab on throughout the pr campaign so I didn’t mind.

If you meant in TLJ, i wish the entire film had been just Rey and Luke. I’d have been over the moon with that. But here we are.

Relikk

david75 wrote: »

In the making of?
I noticed that.
The cast involvement is kept to literally one maybe two sound bytes and that’s It. But we heard them blab on throughout the pr campaign so I didn’t mind.

If you meant in TLJ, i wish the entire film had been just Rey and Luke. I’d have been over the moon with that. But here we are.

You could say both the film and documentary, but yeah, I was referring to the documentary. There wasn't much of any of the rest of the cast outside of Hamill and Fisher that I can remember.

david75

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

There are endless ways you could go with the character, you'd just need a writer with imagination and talent.

Of course there’s endless possibility with anything.
But within universe and when It comes to such a beloved character and one central to the story, you’re very limited very quickly with what you can do.
Lucas himself had pretty much the same story written for Luke in his sequel trilogy.
It just makes sense that hed have a new academy and have a student go bad.

The biggest screw up in my view is that we didn’t get *that* film to start off the trilogy. Ben wrecks the temple, ends with Luke going off into isolation. Time jump to next film settin up Rey and her having to look for him. And on from there.

david75

Relikk wrote: »

You could say both the film and documentary, but yeah, I was referring to the documentary. There wasn't much of any of the rest of the cast outside of Hamill and Fisher that I can remember.

Worked for me. I love seeing all the creatures and sets and designs being explained and shown in their raw state. I effing love that stuff.
That alternative shot of luke and Leia reuniting is still hard to take. She’s giving it everything she has. I can see why they’d didn’t leave it in final but. Wish they had Tho.

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

Of course there’s endless possibility with anything.
But within universe and when It comes to such a beloved character and one central to the story, you’re very limited very quickly with what you can do.
Lucas himself had pretty much the same story written for Luke in his sequel trilogy.
It just makes sense that hed have a new academy and have a student go bad.

The biggest screw up in my view is that we didn’t get *that* film to start off the trilogy. Ben wrecks the temple, ends with Luke going off into isolation. Time jump to next film settin up Rey and her having to look for him. And on from there.

You could do anything with Luke, off the top of my head he comes to the conclusion that there's something inherently missing from the Jedi philosophy that's causing them to lose the likes of Vadar & Ben. After all he was 'too old' to be trained in the first place, too impulsive and his emotions not in check. You wouldn't even have to change the name of the film.

What Rian seems to have done, by way of writing a plot, is to just take the most popular fan theories/expectations, and do the opposite. Add in a couple of ideas for nice looking shots, couple of clunky plot devices here and there to point it in the general direction and hey-presto, script done! Let's not worry about the detail.

That's how you end up with Luke sitting on his hole waiting to die(with Rian's trademark multiple plot holes per scene. why not kill yourself? why leave a map?) whilst a problem of his making is tearing up the galaxy looking to kill his sister and Han Solo.

Literally the more you think about it the worse it gets.

david75

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

You could do anything with Luke, off the top of my head he comes to the conclusion that there's something inherently missing from the Jedi philosophy that's causing them to lose the likes of Vadar & Ben. After all he was 'too old' to be trained in the first place, too impulsive and his emotions not in check. You wouldn't even have to change the name of the film.

What Rian seems to have done, by way of writing a plot, is to just take the most popular fan theories/expectations, and do the opposite. Add in a couple of ideas for nice looking shots, couple of clunky plot devices here and there to point it in the general direction and hey-presto, script done! Let's not worry about the detail.

That's how you end up with Luke sitting on his hole waiting to die(with Rian's trademark multiple plot holes per scene. why not kill yourself? why leave a map?) whilst a problem of his making is tearing up the galaxy looking to kill his sister and Han Solo.

Literally the more you think about it the worse it gets.

He didn’t leave a map though. Lor san Tekka was his cohort for a while and among w few that knew what he was looking for.
What exactly is wrong with Rian not following some fan theory / plot?
They’d probably sue him if it had followed their idea, in fairness.
And he was there to kill himself. That was his struggle. Though it’s only barely alluded to cos it’s Star Wars, not godfather.

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

He didn’t leave a map though. Lor san Tekka was his cohort for a while and among w few that knew what he was looking for.
What exactly is wrong with Rian not following some fan theory / plot?
They’d probably sue him if it had followed their idea, in fairness.
And he was there to kill himself. That was his struggle. Though it’s only barely alluded to cos it’s Star Wars, not godfather.

Subverting fan theory should not be a starting point in plotting a film(especially the 2nd in a trilogy), it should be ignored completely.

Confidence & competence required though.

david75

There’s the point tho. He never even read any ‘fan theories’ to subvert any expectation.

He did write his story while TFA was still in production. So there were no fan theories. The last Jedi was written and in production before TFA was even released. Thatis the big issue you want. And a problematic one for many. This is why people aren’t happy. Seems like there’s no thread connecting them. I have beef with that too.

TFA rogue one and TLJ were all being made by the same people at the same time at the same studio. So maybe too many balls in the air?
I’ve come to love the outcome but still have problems like you. But when it works? It works huge. You’ll come to love it someday I hope. I really don’t know.

Arne_Saknussem

There was huge fan expectation of seeing Luke on screen again since the trilogy was announced though.

Anyway i don't have much faith in JJ pulling it out of the bag in 9, wrapping things up neatly is not exactly his strong point.

david75

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

There was huge fan expectation of seeing Luke on screen again since the trilogy was announced though.

Anyway i don't have much faith in JJ pulling it out of the bag in 9, wrapping things up neatly is not exactly his strong point.

Key word.

Expectation.

Every single one of us had a different expectation. Of the tens of millions of expectations what do you do?

Imo he did the best thing and only thing possible. We saw a read luke rather than a boring super hero. Where does he go after being a superhero all powerful saving the day? That isn’t how a middle act of a trilogy works. Buts it’s definitely not good writing for a beloved character.

Arne_Saknussem

There's a thousand different places a talented writer could go on a scale between Superhero & Self-pity Hermit.

david75

Absolutely. But he got there in the end and forgave himself. Peace and purpose and all that. He’s gonna he back as a force ghost and that’s way more useful in letting Rey step up and he’s coaching be cool to see him follow through on his promise to haunt kylo