Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Goodshape

Hi David! I thought this was better on a second viewing. Knew I would!

It's silly in places, dumb in others, but holds it together just enough to remain entertaining throughout it's (slightly excessive) runtime.

Good fun.

AllForIt

What saved this movie for me is Adam Driver's performance.

Snake Plisken

So I hadn’t watched The Force Awakens until last night and really enjoyed it it brought a tear to my eye seeing Han die, the story might have been a rehash but I thought JJ Abrams did a great job capturing the heart and soul of the original trilogy!
I then watched The Last Jedi and all I can say is what a disappointment, I now understand why Mark Hamill vocally voiced his dislike of what that idiot of a director did with Luke Skywaker, he made him a coward and not willing to help the rebels. Rian Johnson had no respect for Luke, he should have not have been allowed to write the story for this they should have left it with Lawrence Kasden and JJ Abrams to write it and let Rian direct it.
I hope JJ just ignores this film and bring back Luke in IX. What a disappointment!

johnny_ultimate

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

The Shills have already had their say.

When Solo tanks and Rian's trilogy is cancelled the critics will feel comfortable enough to give their real opinions!

Arne, while you are not the first to make this claim, it remains a pretty serious one that I have yet to see anything substantial to support it. Do you have any evidence that critics en masse - including many who
forced Disney into an embarrassing backtrack after they tried to influence editorial affairs, only weeks before TLJ's release - were paid to give this or any recent film good reviews, or does it remain an evidence-free conspiracy theory?

As an extension of that question, what did Disney have to gain from paying critics for the closest thing to a safe box office bet they have, yet let a more obviously risky affair like A Wrinkle In Time receive mixed to bad reviews almost across the board?

Arne_Saknussem

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Arne, while you are not the first to make this claim, it remains a pretty serious one that I have yet to see anything substantial to support it. Do you have any evidence that critics en masse - including many who
forced Disney into an embarrassing backtrack after they tried to influence editorial affairs, only weeks before TLJ's release - were paid to give this or any recent film good reviews, or does it remain an evidence-free conspiracy theory?

As an extension of that question, what did Disney have to gain from paying critics for the closest thing to a safe box office bet they have, yet let a more obviously risky affair like A Wrinkle In Time receive mixed to bad reviews almost across the board?

The evidence is entirely circumstantial but you only have to look at the critic scores, then look at how objectively ****ing awful the film is to notice something is up.

johnny_ultimate

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

you only have to look at the critic scores, then look at how objectively ****ing awful the film is to notice something is up.

I thought the film was great so have no reason to believe there was anything untoward with critical response to the film. Not that I have any reason to believe there was anything untoward with favourable critical response to films I didn't like, anyway!

The evidence is entirely circumstantial

In other words: you have no usable evidence whatsoever to support the allegation?

Arne_Saknussem

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

In other words: you have no usable evidence whatsoever to support the allegation?

No i have nothing that will stick in court, just my reading of the situation.

The reviewers giving it an inital bad review followed quickly by a reappraisal, not unlike Hamills later comments, did make me chuckle though.

Do you think Rian will keep his trilogy after Deadpool 2 wipes the floor with Solo?

TerrorFirmer

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

The evidence is entirely circumstantial but you only have to look at the critic scores, then look at how objectively ****ing awful the film is to notice something is up.

Objectively the film is certainly flawed but hardly awful.

Lambasting it for the creative decisions taken makes it subjectively a bad film, not objectively.

As a lifelong Star Wars fan it'd be a 6 or 7 out of 10 for me - enjoyable, with some stellar moments and performances, sullied somewhat by an uneven script and dodgy decision making from Johnson.

But putting on the aforementioned objective hat, as a general film fan, I'd say it'd be closer to an 8 which is reflected in general critical and audience reaction.

The Star Wars prequels are objectively poor films in the sense that they fall at innumerable hurdles as motion pictures entirely removed from the implications of being a Star Wars film.

As disappointed as I was with creative decisions in The Last Jedi, as an actual film it is vastly superior to any of the prequels.

People keep mixing up subjective and objective.

Arne_Saknussem

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Objectively the film is certainly flawed but hardly awful.

Lambasting it for the creative decisions taken makes it subjectively a bad film, not objectively.

As a lifelong Star Wars fan it'd be a 6 or 7 out of 10 for me - enjoyable, with some stellar moments and performances, sullied somewhat by an uneven script and dodgy decision making from Johnson.

But putting on the aforementioned objective hat, as a general film fan, I'd say it'd be closer to an 8 which is reflected in general critical and audience reaction.

The Star Wars prequels are objectively poor films in the sense that they fall at innumerable hurdles as motion pictures entirely removed from the implications of being a Star Wars film.

As disappointed as I was with creative decisions in The Last Jedi, as an actual film it is vastly superior to any of the prequels.

People keep mixing up subjective and objective.

No, i didn't mix them up.

david75

I didn’t see any critics or reviews reappraising their reviews? They were all positive right out the gate.

The only reappraising I have seen is regular people saying they really hated it then watching it and again and coming around to liking it.
There’s a lot of shock and awe in that first viewing. I know I had it. It subsides after a few more viewings.

I can’t personally rank Star Wars films all the OT are interchangeable for the top spot but TFA and TLJ sit comfortably among them.

johnny_ultimate

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

No i have nothing that will stick in court, just my reading of the situation.

So in the absence of anything even remotely resembling evidence, you can see why the argument comes across as at best entirely unconvincing and at worst straight up conspiratorial. I mean, the theory would involve hundreds of *journalists*, including from many of the most respected publications on the planet, being paid to give the film a positive appraisal, and not a hint of evidence becoming public in the process? It is, in short, a weak, ludicrous allegation that I can’t see how anyone can openly suggest without realising how absurd it is

Arne_Saknussem

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

So in the absence of anything even remotely resembling evidence, you can see why the argument comes across as at best entirely unconvincing and at worst straight up conspiratorial. I mean, the theory would involve hundreds of *journalists*, including from many of the most respected publications on the planet, being paid to give the film a positive appraisal, and not a hint of evidence becoming public in the process? It is, in short, a weak, ludicrous allegation that I can’t see how anyone can openly suggest without realising how absurd it is :)

Oh i can see it without doubt, i haven't been working on a casefile or anything.

But like i said not unlike Hamill, it did make me chuckle when channels with links to Disney as a parent company suddenly changed their reviews from negative to positive. It's not like Disney have form for blacklisting certain publications from screenings/reviews when they have displeased them(tinfoil hat firmly in place!).

What i can't see is how any self respecting film critic can suggest this ****ing mess of a film is in any way comparable to Empire without realising how ****ing absurd that is

david75

Yeah you’re confusing objective with subjective again. And stating your opinion as fact, which never really works when it comes to opinions tbh.

david75

Hey Johnny. Off topic but i just saw this on page one of the TFA thread when the new films were announced what a journey you’ve been on!

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Oh Jesus God no!

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

Yeah you’re confusing objective with subjective again. And stating your opinion as fact, which never really works when it comes to opinions tbh.

Nah when you need various other media, novels etc, to explain away all the inconsistencies & laughably stupid plot holes in a film you're admitting it's a turkey.

Novel spoiler:

Rey basically downloading training from Snoke is my favourite so far

johnny_ultimate

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

What i can't see is how any self respecting film critic can suggest this ****ing mess of a film is in any way comparable to Empire without realising how ****ing absurd that is

I’ve explained at considerable length earlier in the thread why it’s my favourite film in the series so nothing absurd about the critical consensus from my perspective. Personally I prefer relying on criticism of the film itself to support my stance rather than invoking unsubstantiated conspiracy theories to undermine it I know it may seem like I’m poking at you on this point, but I feel it’s a claim that comes up regularly - not just in relation this film - and reliably poisons the discussion for no good reason.

johnny_ultimate

david75 wrote: »

Hey Johnny. Off topic but i just saw this on page one of the TFA thread when the new films were announced what a journey you’ve been on!

Yep, never would have imagined we’d have ended up with a film of this calibre, or even TFA’s quality, when the announcement was made. Very happy to have been proven wrong. Still dubious about several aspects of Disney’s Uber-franchise approach and increasing corporate dominance of major US pop cultural properties, but still

david75

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Yep, never would have imagined we’d have ended up with a film of this calibre, or even TFA’s quality, when the announcement was made. Very happy to have been proven wrong. Still dubious about several aspects of Disney’s Uber-franchise approach, but still

I understand that. It’s like a tidal wave.
I’ve been following the Darth Vader comics, set just after he’s born as Vader. Huge payoffs in it seeing the distrust and backstabbing between him and Palpatine. Really adds a lot of dimensions. But keeping up with all of it is almost a full time job. It’s cool the way they’ve made it so that you don’t have to it’s not required reading / viewing but it’s been overall really positive and worthwhile. So far anyways.

Let’s see what these tv series do.

david75

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

Nah when you need various other media, novels etc, to explain away all the inconsistencies & laughably stupid plot holes in a film you're admitting it's a turkey.

Novel spoiler:

Rey basically downloading training from Snoke is my favourite so far

To your spoiler it’s Kylo not Snoke she’s absorbed it from. Ties into what they’ve set up in canon. Different Jedi have different abilities. Quinlan voss can hold an item and see its whole history and where it’s been. Ezra in Rebels has a deep connection with animals and can communicate with them. Yoda can see across space(and probably time). Luke can project himself across the galaxy.
Kylo mind raping Rey in TFA seems to have broke a barrier in her mind and literally awakened her abilities and she absorbed some of his. It’s awakened in her as the light to balance off his abilities in the dark.

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

To your spoiler it’s Kylo not Snoke she’s absorbed it from. Ties into what they’ve set up in canon. Different Jedi have different abilities. Quinlan voss can hold an item and see its whole history and where it’s been. Ezra in Rebels has a deep connection with animals and can communicate with them. Yoda can see across space(and probably time). Luke can project himself across the galaxy.
Kylo mind raping Rey in TFA seems to have broke a barrier in her mind and literally awakened her abilities and she absorbed some of his. It’s awakened in her as the light to balance off his abilities in the dark.

It's woeful, and has only come about due to them not hiring someone with the ability to write a decent script.

J Mysterio

david75 wrote: »

I love it. You’re not wrong for not liking it. I’m not wrong for liking it.

Either way, this kid is all of of us. So happy for him. And what a well played answer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXlopmOxET4

Aw fook, Hamill was on the Late Late and I missed it?!

david75

J Mysterio wrote: »

Aw fook, Hamill was on the Late Late and I missed it?!

Seriously?? It was a brilliant interview!! He was so relaxed and Ryan actually did really well!
It was Friday before last. The paddy’s day weekend. Watch it on the iplayer!

Arne_Saknussem

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I’ve explained at considerable length earlier in the thread why it’s my favourite film in the series so nothing absurd about the critical consensus from my perspective. Personally I prefer relying on criticism of the film itself to support my stance rather than invoking unsubstantiated conspiracy theories to undermine it I know it may seem like I’m poking at you on this point, but I feel it’s a claim that comes up regularly - not just in relation this film - and reliably poisons the discussion for no good reason.

Wasn't looking to poison anything, was an off the cuff remark if anything.

How about the whole ridiculous premise for a start:

The Emprie First Order is following the Resistance because:

- the resistance ships are smaller and faster so the First Order can't catch them
- but they can't outrun them...so they're not faster, they are exactly as fast as each other because the FO can stay exactly the same distance behind them for the whole film??
- their weapons can't penetrate the cruisers shields at a distance??(the less distance you travel through a vacuum the less power they lose??)
- so they can't protect their tie fighters if they sent them to attack the last 400 resistance fighters in the galaxy(like that's been a problem in the past)
- the First Order can't light speed ahead of the Resistance because that would mean the film is over in 20mins
- the First Order can't Lightspeed into them, at a stroke wiping out the Resistance, because nobody in the history of Space Battle has thought of this until Admiral Holdo "pulls it out of her butt"
- the First Order, rulers of the galaxy, can't contact another ship in the area and arrange for them to engage with the Resistance fleet

so what we're left with is a ludicrously generated 'countdown' scenario where the Resistance can't get away, the First Order can't catch up and everyone is locked into position in this tense situation....


...except Rose & Finn who seem to have the ability to come and go as they ****ing please

Defunkd

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

Nah when you need various other media, novels etc, to explain away all the inconsistencies & laughably stupid plot holes in a film you're admitting it's a turkey.

Novel spoiler:

Rey basically downloading training from Snoke is my favourite so far

Retconning at its finest! The SW franchise is built upon creative gap-filling and inconsistencies being explained at a later date.
No point arguing about it with fanboys though, they have obvious bias that can only be altered by a 'canon' novel or comic.

david75

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

Wasn't looking to poison anything, was an off the cuff remark if anything.

How about the whole ridiculous premise for a start:

The Emprie First Order is following the Resistance because:

- the resistance ships are smaller and faster so the First Order can't catch them
- but they can't outrun them...so they're not faster, they are exactly as fast as each other because the FO can stay exactly the same distance behind them for the whole film??
- their weapons can't penetrate the cruisers shields at a distance??(the less distance you travel through a vacuum the less power they lose??)
- so they can't protect their tie fighters if they sent them to attack the last 400 resistance fighters in the galaxy(like that's been a problem in the past)
- the First Order can't light speed ahead of the Resistance because that would mean the film is over in 20mins
- the First Order can't Lightspeed into them, at a stroke wiping out the Resistance, because nobody in the history of Space Battle has thought of this until Admiral Holdo "pulls it out of her butt"
- the First Order, rulers of the galaxy, can't contact another ship in the area and arrange for them to engage with the Resistance fleet

so what we're left with is a ludicrously generated 'countdown' scenario where the Resistance can't get away, the First Order can't catch up and everyone is locked into position in this tense situation....


...except Rose & Finn who seem to have the ability to come and go as they ****ing please

They’re smaller ships with a higher sub light top speed. A hiace can outrun a truck but it wouldn’t be able to outrun it by far but could maintain a distance. There’s a Spielberg movie called the Duel that I think that whole sequence was referencing tbh. A big oil tanker truck stalking a guy in a car.

The falcon gets battered by a star destroyer in Empire and it’s shields hold. If you’re gonna wonder about that end of it you have to wonder why the same questions are ignored in the OT.

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

They’re smaller ships with a higher sub light top speed. A hiace can outrun a truck but it wouldn’t be able to outrun it by far but could maintain a distance. There’s a Spielberg movie called the Duel that I think that whole sequence was referencing tbh. A big oil tanker truck stalking a guy in a car.

The falcon gets battered by a star destroyer in Empire and it’s shields hold. If you’re gonna wonder about that end of it you have to wonder why the same questions are ignored in the OT.

Hiace's have to contend with wind resistance and the road. If you put it on a straight surface with no wind resistance it would begin & continue to pull away from a slower vehicle once it hit top speed.

Perhaps the Falcon has decent shields, distance was never a factor until the convoluted attempt to generate this silly scenario. And speaking of the Falcon, we've seen Star Destroyers easily keep speed with it in other films.

Like i said Rian should have concentrated on writing a script that made sense(or delegating) instead of aping Spielberg & wankery like displaying his knowledge of Kurosawa.

david75

Watch it again. It’s better the more you watch

Speaking of when in the name of god are we getting Spielberg at the helm??
Reports from Ready player one all saying it’s Spielberg at his best and only he could have made this film etc.

He’s top of my wish list to direct one.

david75

Also something somebody spotted and I think Johnson confirmed, its the first Star Wars movie that happens in real time. So everything is happening concurrently whereas in the OT or even TFA, it takes 3 weeks for Rey and chewie to get to Ahch to / Luke’s actually on dagobah for a month / the falcon travels at the speed of plot etc but we see all that stuff cut out so that also adds to the inertia you’re feeling in TLJ

Arne_Saknussem

david75 wrote: »

Also something somebody spotted and I think Johnson confirmed, its the first Star Wars movie that happens in real time. So everything is happening concurrently whereas in the OT or even TFA, it takes 3 weeks for Rey and chewie to get to Ahch to / Luke’s actually on dagobah for a month / the falcon travels at the speed of plot etc but we see all that stuff cut out so that also adds to the inertia you’re feeling in TLJ

So you're telling me Rey beats the crap out of Luke Skywalker less than a week after learning the Force is a real thing?

J Mysterio

I was just wondering where ol' Tony was. Looks like he got a weeks siteban and is now on probation for 3 months

Seemed to me there was a constant battle between the dark and light side of the force in here, represented by Tony EH and david75 respectively.