Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Theboinkmaster

Falthyron wrote: »

When Rian Johnson was announced as the director of Episode VIII people got very excited. His work on Breaking Bad and Looper was lauded as fresh and different. When there were doubts about a relative newbie being given the chance at a massive franchise people cited that episode of Breaking Bad and Looper as examples of why he should be trusted. Now, post TLJ, I can't see the same credit being given to Johnson for future films. I don't think people will say: "Remember The Last Jedi? We have nothing to worry about". I think this film has diminished his record somewhat when you compare it to all the promise and excitement that existed prior to TLJ because of Breaking Bad and Looper. In years to come, TLJ won't be used as a pillar of film-making demonstrating Rian's skills. Should Rian go on to have a highly successful film-making career producing critically acclaimed films, I think TLJ will be to Rian as Crystal Skull is to Spielberg. When we talk about Spielberg we refer to Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List, Lincoln, etc., nobody mentions Crystal Skull. I think TLJ will be in the same category for Rian.

IMO, that itself says a lot by the overall reception towards TLJ.

I wonder what Kathleen kennedy and Disney execs think privately of TLJ? I don't believe they think it's actually a good film but it made a sh!t tonne of cash for them so who cares.....

Arne_Saknussem

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I wonder what Kathleen kennedy and Disney execs think privately of TLJ? I don't believe they think it's actually a good film but it made a sh!t tonne of cash for them so who cares.....

It was obviously by far the biggest film of the year but i think Disney will be a little concerned that it didn't perform as well as was forecast, especially when Solo does the same.

Defunkd

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

It was obviously by far the biggest film of the year but i think Disney will be a little concerned that it didn't perform as well as was forecast, especially when Solo does the same.

What the film grossed at the B.O. isn't as large as projected (and hoped for by them) and i imagine the costs and marketing campaigns will deduct another few hundred million dollars from the bottom line. Toy sales are way down too according to one of the many yt channels devoted to SW.
Not a failure but not as successful as could have been.

homerun_homer

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I wonder what Kathleen kennedy and Disney execs think privately of TLJ? I don't believe they think it's actually a good film but it made a sh!t tonne of cash for them so who cares.....

She has done nothing but back him up all the way and granted him his own trilogy to develop. She would have seen this from his first drafts and knew what the film was going for. She likes it.

Defunkd wrote: »

What the film grossed at the B.O. isn't as large as projected (and hoped for by them) and i imagine the costs and marketing campaigns will deduct another few hundred million dollars from the bottom line. Toy sales are way down too according to one of the many yt channels devoted to SW.
Not a failure but not as successful as could have been.

They barely released much new in the toy figures and overall new cool toys by comparison to TFA and R1. I wonder did they know they wouldn't do as well in those stakes and purposefully not flood the market with new toys.

Arne_Saknussem

Defunkd wrote: »

What the film grossed at the B.O. isn't as large as projected (and hoped for by them) and i imagine the costs and marketing campaigns will deduct another few hundred million dollars from the bottom line. Toy sales are way down too according to one of the many yt channels devoted to SW.
Not a failure but not as successful as could have been.

I know yeah, a 2015 valuation published by Forbes of Star Wars as a brand predicted it would do over $2bn. The same study predicted to within $70m & $30m for Force Awakens & Rogue One(prediction slightly under eventual take for both), so pretty accurate for those. And Last Jedi underperformed by about $700m.

There is an argument that the 2nd in a series never does as well as the first in SW and this is true, so before release the consensus was the base expectation was to beat Jurassic World at about $1.7bn. So over $350m less than that would have been a disappointment.

In saying all that i'd still imagine that the film was about $250m-300m in profit. However if Solo tanks like i expect(can't see it getting near $1bn) i think Disney will be taking a long hard look at Kathleen & Rian's trilogy.

Kirby

Star Wars sells itself. If it under performs its because you gave the audience something they werent asking for. People go to Star Wars for space battles, adventure, Jedi and ultimately to get the same feeling they had when they were kids. They dont go to Star Wars for SJW crap or to be lectured to.

Frankly, Kennedy should have been shown the door. When pushing an agenda takes priority over creating the best movie possible, this is what happens.

I didnt hate the movie like some did, in fact I mostly enjoyed it. But it has massive problems and I'm curious to see how much of the last jedi survives into Episode 9. I have a feeling JJ may just disregard much of it.

Tony EH

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

It was obviously by far the biggest film of the year but i think Disney will be a little concerned that it didn't perform as well as was forecast, especially when Solo does the same.

Box office is a terrible way to gauge public reception of any film. It's simply a measure of tickets sold and money made. Plenty of people paid to see 'The Last Jedi' and came away disapointed, to say the least.

But judging from the reactions online and elsewhere, it's abundantly clear that there isn't a universal love for this film, from fans and non-fans alike, and the criticisms are shared to a very large degree. Many people liked it and many people didn't like it. In fact, I've never seen a Star Wars film split fandom in the way it has. Even the prequels were generally liked until people stopped kidding themselves.

That kind of reaction is not going to be lost on bean counters like Kathleen Kennedy. Disney are in this for the long haul and they want to make sure there's an audience going forward. Ignoring the problems with 'The Last Jedi' and the reaction would be foolish in the extreme.

Also, expecting any Star Wars film to do the business that 'The Force Awakens' did is just stupid. That film - a medicore one, at best - enjoyed a "right place, right time" specialty. That's gone now.

On 'Solo', I think they'll do ok with it. They'l cut their losses and put it down to the dreadful production that that film had to be made under. I don't believe they're expecting wonders for it. It was a bad idea in the first place and someone should have just said "no", but it'll make money. Frankly, I don't think I'll live to see the day when a Star Wars film makes a loss.

Slydice

https://twitter.com/TheLocalGod/status/981103133853065216

tigger123

Anyone any predictions for Episode IX?

Theboinkmaster

tigger123 wrote: »

Anyone any predictions for Episode IX?

Like someone else has said I think JJ was privately pissed off with Rian disregarding everything he setup in TFA so I think he'll do the same with TLJ.

If it's as good as TFA ill be very happy.

homerun_homer

I still can't see what the arc of this film is supposed to be. It can't be a redemption of Kylo, particularly with Carrie Fisher's absence, plus it's repetitive. If it's about the return of the bad guys, obliteration of the good guys and seeing them crawl back from near death to continue the fight then it would leave it too open to continue that series forward. If the Resistance somehow manages to gather some more followers and beat the First Order then it's a huge cop out to happen in one film.

Honestly, what is this trilogy wanting to be as a complete story?

Falthyron

The fact that JJ had different plans for Rey's parents than Rian illustrates the ad hoc and disjointed narrative for this trilogy. JJ had different plans for Rey's parents.

I suspect Episode IX will be another exercise in arbitrary decision-making with JJ choosing what he wants to answer and ignoring parts of Rian's film that doesn't align with his own original vision. Sad, really. It would have been nice if a trilogy was written prior to filming TFA and then the directors brought on for each film had to agree to the overall narrative, particularly crucial points like: how Luke would die, how Han would die, how Leia would die, who is Rey, who is Snoke, who are the Knights of Ren, where is Lando, etc., etc. Instead we have each director picking up select pieces from the previous installment and running with whatever they think is cool/good without much thought for the 'long game'.

Arne_Saknussem

Tony EH wrote: »

Box office is a terrible way to gauge public reception of any film. It's simply a measure of tickets sold and money made. Plenty of people paid to see 'The Last Jedi' and came away disapointed, to say the least.

But judging from the reactions online and elsewhere, it's abundantly clear that there isn't a universal love for this film, from fans and non-fans alike, and the criticisms are shared to a very large degree. Many people liked it and many people didn't like it. In fact, I've never seen a Star Wars film split fandom in the way it has. Even the prequels were generally liked until people stopped kidding themselves.

That kind of reaction is not going to be lost on bean counters like Kathleen Kennedy. Disney are in this for the long haul and they want to make sure there's an audience going forward. Ignoring the problems with 'The Last Jedi' and the reaction would be foolish in the extreme.

Also, expecting any Star Wars film to do the business that 'The Force Awakens' did is just stupid. That film - a medicore one, at best - enjoyed a "right place, right time" specialty. That's gone now.

On 'Solo', I think they'll do ok with it. They'l cut their losses and put it down to the dreadful production that that film had to be made under. I don't believe they're expecting wonders for it. It was a bad idea in the first place and someone should have just said "no", but it'll make money. Frankly, I don't think I'll live to see the day when a Star Wars film makes a loss.

The final take i think shows that a lot of people didn't like the film, i think a combination of word of mouth and especially the loss of repeat viewings by those that normally might go 4+ times is shown by the final take. And it's important as it will ultimately decide if Disney will make a change in the direction they're going with Star Wars.

It was always going to do over $1bn, but the sharp falloff after the first week shows that people who would normally go back had no interest and word got round it was a bit of a stinker.

It'll also affect hugely what Solo does, and that already had problems of it's own. It should also affect episode IX, but that will probably also get a "not Rian Johnson" boost so will be interesting, could be the rock Kathleen & Rian perish on!

J Mysterio

I don't see how Johnson deserves a new Star Wars trilogy at any rate. The least Kennedy could have done was to wait for the TLJ's release before deciding.

Not that I particularly care about a new trilogy right now, I wanted these new films to do justice to the originals, particularly as they managed to get the original cast back. Too late now.

Tony EH

J Mysterio wrote: »

I don't see how Johnson deserves a new Star Wars trilogy at any rate. The least Kennedy could have done was to wait for the TLJ's release before deciding.

Not that I particularly care about a new trilogy right now, I wanted these new films to do justice to the originals, particularly as they managed to get the original cast back. Too late now.

Remember, Disney brought back the old cast and didn't bother to give them a single scene together.

I don't think Disney have a clue.

Kennedy should be the bean counter. But I think there should be somebody else steering the ship. Maybe Lucas should be asked to step in, in an exec role?

That being said, I think Kennedy has done an ok job. But, she's firefighting a lot, it seems. She damage controlling one disaster after the next. If 'Solo' only does so-so BO, that'll be the next thing she has to downplay.

As for Johnson, I'd be quite surprised if that trilogy of his gets the go ahead now. I'm not sure, at this stage, that there are any real solid plans for anything after IX.

PhiloCypher

Kirby wrote: »

Star Wars sells itself. If it under performs its because you gave the audience something they werent asking for. People go to Star Wars for space battles, adventure, Jedi and ultimately to get the same feeling they had when they were kids. They dont go to Star Wars for SJW crap or to be lectured to.

Frankly, Kennedy should have been shown the door. When pushing an agenda takes priority over creating the best movie possible, this is what happens.

I didnt hate the movie like some did, in fact I mostly enjoyed it. But it has massive problems and I'm curious to see how much of the last jedi survives into Episode 9. I have a feeling JJ may just disregard much of it.

The only agenda I can see is with a certain set of fans who choose to filter and judge every film on it's perceived SJWness and have a good ol' whinge about it.

There are plenty of angles on which to attack TFA and TLJ wholly separate to how diverse the cast is or how proficient Rey is. Putting a SJW dig in their makes you look like you also have an agenda .

Tony EH

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

The final take i think shows that a lot of people didn't like the film, i think a combination of word of mouth and especially the loss of repeat viewings by those that normally might go 4+ times is shown by the final take. And it's important as it will ultimately decide if Disney will make a change in the direction they're going with Star Wars.

It was always going to do over $1bn, but the sharp falloff after the first week shows that people who would normally go back had no interest and word got round it was a bit of a stinker.

It'll also affect hugely what Solo does, and that already had problems of it's own. It should also affect episode IX, but that will probably also get a "not Rian Johnson" boost so will be interesting, could be the rock Kathleen & Rian perish on!

The final take is down, compared to 'The Force Awakens'. But, if the suits were measuring "succcess" by that yardstick, they were always going to lose. In real measurments, the film was a very large financial success. 1.3 billion on a 200 million picture isn't a failure.

You're correct in that repeat viewings died off on 'The Last Jedi' and the disapointment expressed from a large proportion of the audience had an effect on viewership too, I reckon. Toy sales for this particular film are down too, they can't shift the endless Rey's, Finn's, Poe's and Luke's.

I think there's also a Star Wars "fatigue" setting in for the casuals. Diz Wars has been a bombardment so far. That would be ok if the actual product was uniformly good. But, with uneven output, people are going to get turned off. There's even hardcore fans that are saying there's too much at the moment and the quality is not consistent.

'Solo' is going to be interesting to watch. If it does 'Rogue One' business, Disney will be delighted. I think it'll probably do well enough. I don't believe it will tank like a lot of people are saying. The hamstring will be #notmysolo. That'll be the major chink in the armour. It's going to take a lot for many people to ignore that.

As I said before though...the real tragedy is, that 'Solo' turns out to be a great film, but it still remains a film about Han Solo, without Han Solo.

Defunkd

Tony EH wrote: »

Kennedy should be the bean counter. But I think there should be somebody else steering the ship. Maybe Lucas should be asked to step in, in an exec role?

I think the bridge between GL and Lucasfilm has been burned beyond repair. George was told he'd have creative input into the new films but after disney bought lucasfilm he was told they wouldn't be needing his help/creative input. He seemed quite hurt by it: there are interviews on yt.
IMO george does best when he doesn't have the reins or too much control. He called nearly all the shots on the prequels and they are poor stories as a result. Might sound cruel, seeing as it was his creation, but for example, even though willie nelson is a great songwriter he's not a great singer...his work is better executed and improved on by others.

Tony EH

Defunkd wrote: »

I think the bridge between GL and Lucasfilm has been burned beyond repair. George was told he'd have creative input into the new films but after disney bought lucasfilm he was told they wouldn't be needing his help/creative input. He seemed quite hurt by it: there are interviews on yt.
IMO george does best when he doesn't have the reins or too much control. He called nearly all the shots on the prequels and they are poor stories as a result. Might sound cruel, seeing as it was his creation, but for example, even though willie nelson is a great songwriter he's not a great singer...his work is better executed and improved on by others.

I couldn't agree more.

I was being a little facetious with the "get Lucas in" comment though.

But, it's clear that someone else is needed to be "showrunner" as it were. Who? I don't know. Not Filoni anyway. I don't want to see the guy who OK'd helicopter lightsabers in 'Rebels' anywhere near the movies. I know 'Rebels' was for 7 year olds, but even so.

Arne_Saknussem

Tony EH wrote: »

The final take is down, compared to 'The Force Awakens'. But, if the suits were measuring "succcess" by that yardstick, they were always going to lose. In real measurments, the film was a very large financial success. 1.3 billion on a 200 million picture isn't a failure.

I never said Force Awakens numbers were the yardstick for 'success', i said that Jurassic World's $1.7bn would have been the target. I also said i reckon it's in healthy profit.

My point was when Solo continues the downward trend the beancounters will raise an eyebrow & if Ep IX does not hit projections they could very well make a change.

uncleoswald

Falthyron wrote: »

Should Rian go on to have a highly successful film-making career producing critically acclaimed films, I think TLJ will be to Rian as Crystal Skull is to Spielberg.

I wasn't a massive fan of TLJ but this seems way of the mark. While I do think history wont be kind to TLJ it outshines Crystal Skull in every way. Rian clearly cared while Spielberg was in auto-pilot mode and didn't seem bothered about pushing back on Ford or Lucas. If anything it would be more of a Hook.

I think TLJ is a decent film, a poor Star Wars film, and a worse 2nd part of a trilogy.

tigger123 wrote: »

Anyone any predictions for Episode IX?

I've said it before but I think JJ has a massively tough task ahead of him as TLJ and Fisher's death has closed off most of the plot threads set up in the two films. And given that he had to start writing it long before he will have seen TLJ I think he'll make an uninspiring, by the numbers sequel to the Force Awakens that few will love but most will go "it was alright".

Set it a few years later, Leia either dead or gone to the Jedi Temple. Po I guess leading a newly formed resistance as they try to stop Huxley (who is gone a bit rogue from Ren) from building or destroying a something something...

And Rey and Finn perusing Ren and his Knights who are after some Jedi macguffin that could change the force as we know it forever. Bleugh.

SpaceCowb0y

uncleoswald wrote: »

Set it a few years later, Leia either dead or gone to the Jedi Temple. Po I guess leading a newly formed resistance as they try to stop Huxley (who is gone a bit rogue from Ren) from building or destroying a something something...

And Rey and Finn perusing Ren and his Knights who are after some Jedi macguffin that could change the force as we know it forever. Bleugh.

Still a better movie than Twilight :pac:

and TLJ in fairness

Ipso

Tony Gilroy on Rogue One reshoots. I still can’t understand how a big production like this (and the Han Solo movie) could run into such issues.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-rogue-one-writer-tony-gilroy-opens-up-reshoots-1100060

Here we go

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Like someone else has said I think JJ was privately pissed off with Rian disregarding everything he setup in TFA so I think he'll do the same with TLJ.

If it's as good as TFA ill be very happy.

I Trad this and the first thing I taught of was him doing a Dallas on it have ray walk out of a shower say to chewie about this terrible dream then they landsnd meet Luke for the first time lmao

Hector Savage

Is David75 banned for some argument on this thread ?

#FreeDavid75

Falthyron

Hector Savage wrote: »

Is David75 banned for some argument on this thread ?

#FreeDavid75

Nah, I think he was posting elsewhere and what he said there got him a ban.

py2006

This is being retweeted like hell at mo:

https://twitter.com/jmmcnabagain/status/984162881666248710

tigger123

Woah. That is seriously slick.

jones

So i am a bit late to the party but i just watched TLJ at the weekend on bluray i missed it in the cinema and am a big star wars fan so was really looking forward to it. I havent read the thread so i may be repeating things so bare with me.

Really don't know what to make of TLJ.

Visually looked great, good score (although reused a lot of TFA themes), acting seemed fine for what it is but the script was complete rubbish IMO. I'm as open to suspension of disbelief as anyone but some of the scenes in this were like they were written by an 8 year old (maybe that was the point?).

Snoke was such a disappointment - all this build up to be killed so easily just seemed lazy. I get they wanted Kilo to be the main big bad for the third film but surely there was a better way to finish off someone you've spent 1.5 movies building up as all powerful to be killed so simply. He basically mind melded Rey and Kilo but yet couldn't read Kilo's real intentions.

The Leah "superman in space" thing - there are no words

The "joke" phonecall at the start was cringe worthy

Of course there are lots of plot holes like the bombers in space but i don't mind stuff like that. The story is what really let it down for me. It's a funny one though as i feel i need to see it again but my initial reaction was definitely one of disappointment

Maxpfizer

jones wrote: »

The Leah "superman in space" thing - there are no words

The thing that gets me about this scene is that it's the single most insane and powerful use of The Force that we've ever seen in Star Wars movies.

Also it comes from a character that we haven't seen using The Force to do anything before (beyond some telepathic stuff, I guess).

On top of that this character just uses The Force to save themselves while letting everyone else die. Like she has the power to survive in space and FLY back to her ship but she couldn't stop the blast or divert the missiles/torpedoes etc?

It feels like a distinctly un-Leia like way to use The Force.

From a storytelling point of view it feels like something you'd expect to see a character doing after a slow and deliberate build up. You know, we see them struggling to master their abilities and we see them fail and then improve and then the grand finale is a crazy use of power to save the day.

Here it's just... SURPRISE! LEIA CAN FLY NOW! OUT OF NOWHERE! Uh-oh now she's in a coma until the end of the movie but she won't be using these powers again so that's it folks.