Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Tony EH

It's an incredibly dumb scene. No 1 cut for most fan editors.

https://vimeo.com/263988128

johnny_ultimate

Watched again on Blu-Ray last night. Struck me how rewatching it (and this will be my last for some time - rare indeed I'd watch a film three times in such a short space of time) is the opposite to The Force Awakens - whereas that film's frustrations became more pronounced when revisted, TLJ has only grown in my estimation with each watch. The film's sense of purpose and mostly the virtuosity of the filmmaking are only enhanced IMO when you have the opportunity to reflect on them a bit more.

Particularly love the plants and payoffs - Rose's "I wish I could put my fist through this whole lousy, beautiful town" realised in the anarchic fathier chase; the 'spark of hope' repeatedly referenced before finally being visualised in the final shot; the entire Luke narrative biding its time before delivering his ultimate heroic act.

While the special features are reasonably limited in terms of deep insights, what they do highlight in no uncertain terms is one of the reasons the film has such a sense of presence - the focus on physical effects and traditional filmmaking even in a CG-heavy film. While SFX is used to enhance the scene (the burning fabric making it a whole lot more dynamic), the Praetorian Guards scene comes across as almost a Raid-like exercise in visceral choreography. For a bloodless scene, it's ****ing brutal.

If you look at something like the Captain America: Winter Soldier elevator scene (only picking that as it's often cited as a high watermark in the Marvel series), that's edited so rapidly and confusingly it loses any sense of impact. This fight is directed, well, perfectly - shot lengths are relatively brief but not too short, instead often lingering to clearly frame and show two or three fluid yet separate actions. Flows like an absolute dream - and while the emotional stakes aren't quite as high as some previous lightsaber battles, the way it moves so smoothly from Snoke's death really underlines the dramatic beats involved.

I've always admired JJ Abrams' clarity and visual dynamism as a director, but Rian Johnson and Steve Yedlin are operating on a completely different level here. This is made with more confidence and verve than any franchise film has any right to be. While it goes without saying scenes like the Holdo manouvere play out best on the big screen, the small screen does little to dull the sense of craft applied throughout this delightful film.

Falthyron

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

While the special features are reasonably limited in terms of deep insights, what they do highlight in no uncertain terms is one of the reasons the film has such a sense of presence - the focus on physical effects and traditional filmmaking even in a CG-heavy film. While SFX is used to enhance the scene (the burning fabric making it a whole lot more dynamic), the Praetorian Guards scene comes across as almost a Raid-like exercise in visceral choreography. For a bloodless scene, it's ****ing brutal.

If you look at something like the Captain America: Winter Soldier elevator scene (only picking that as it's often cited as a high watermark in the Marvel series), that's edited so rapidly and confusingly it loses any sense of impact. This fight is directed, well, perfectly - shot lengths are relatively brief but not too short, instead often lingering to clearly frame and show two or three fluid yet separate actions. Flows like an absolute dream - and while the emotional stakes aren't quite as high as some previous lightsaber battles, the way it moves so smoothly from Snoke's death really underlines the dramatic beats involved.

You might have missed this.

https://twitter.com/TheLocalGod/status/981103133853065216

J Mysterio

Also... The focus on 'filmmaking' etc. annoys me to be honest. Star Wars is an always will be, about the story.

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

Also... The focus on 'filmmaking' etc. annoys me to be honest. Star Wars is an always will be, about the story.

??

coolisin

jones wrote: »

Snoke was such a disappointment - all this build up to be killed so easily just seemed lazy. I get they wanted Kilo to be the main big bad for the third film but surely there was a better way to finish off someone you've spent 1.5 movies building up as all powerful to be killed so simply. He basically mind melded Rey and Kilo but yet couldn't read Kilo's real intentions.

This scene i only picked up properly on my second watch and loved how it was done from Kilo, but im a little slow at the best of times


Its funny I left after seeing it disappointed but had to go see it again, with my nephew, and it enjoyed it so much better the second time round.
I have bought the 4k bluray of it, to watch again.

Other then the casino sh!t that can stay gone

My biggest disappointment is the the non use of Phasma, again in movie.

J Mysterio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

??

Taken out of context, I realise that can look like a stupid statement. But people focus on Johnson's use of transitions or choice of lens or filter or whatever. Or the section where Rey feels the force, and we have nice visual metaphors or whatever. That's all well and good, but when it comes to Star Wars, the actual script is the most important thing, if they dont get that right, it's all for nought imo. And in TLJ, they didnt get it right. TFA to an extent too. They wasted the original cast, particularly Luke and Leia - the essence of Star Wars.

PhiloCypher

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Particularly love the plants and payoffs - Rose's "I wish I could put my fist through this whole lousy, beautiful town" realised in the anarchic fathier chase; the 'spark of hope' repeatedly referenced before finally being visualised in the final shot; the entire Luke narrative biding its time before delivering his ultimate heroic act.

It may have turned out to be ultimately heroic, but I do wonder was it meant to be ? Did he know for a fact that this massive use of the force was going to be the death of him. The way they shot it, I don't think he did. This wasn't a graceful poof and he's gone, he staggers back onto the rocks then goes poof.

Basically Obi Wan intentionally makes the ultimate heroic sacrifice against Darth, I'm not sure Luke intentionally does here. Still Heroic mind you.

johnny_ultimate

J Mysterio wrote: »

When it comes to Star Wars, the actual script is the most important thing

Well putting aside my own view that TLJ is the most interesting story told in this series to date (yes, yes, but you're not going to convince me otherwise )... this is still a rather preposterous suggestion. Star Wars has always, at its best, been a triumph of filmmaking over a mere story. I mean, look at A New Hope alone, which isn't even the best film in the series:

• The beautiful shots and compositions - the Star Destroyer slowly filling the frame (at the time a pretty extraordinary feat, and still iconic); Luke staring at the dual suns; Vader walking down the bright white corridor (brilliant, bold use of colour contrast in that whole sequence); the first leap into hyperspace...
  
• The iconic production design - weapons, lightsabers, spacecrafts, creatures, environments, costumes, opening crawl...
  
• The groundbreaking special effects and puppet / miniatures work
  
• That score
  
• The memorable editing techniques, most obviously the dramatic swipe cuts (borrowed from elsewhere, but intimately now associated with this series)
  
• The way all of the above mingle and complement each other

Even if you have little interest in the technical specifics behind any of that, it is all pure craft and direction. Remove all that and you'd be left with a pretty straightforward hero's journey with some likable characters. It was the manner in which that story was realised that captured people's imagination.

To reduce Star Wars down to a mere story, or to fob off the filmmaking accomplishments of this or any of the films for that matter... well, personally that to me is doing a profound disservice to what has often made these films so special in the first place

It may have turned out to be ultimately heroic, but I do wonder was it meant to be ? Did he know for a fact that this massive use of the force was going to be the death of him. The way they shot it, I don't think he did. This wasn't a graceful poof and he's gone, he staggers back onto the rocks then goes poof.

Basically Obi Wan intentionally makes the ultimate heroic sacrifice against Darth, I'm not sure Luke intentionally does here. Still Heroic mind you.

I don't necessarily think it's his death that's purely heroic, more what his actions mean and represent His decision to save the resistance members and reignite that spark of hope is a tide-turning decision and IMO represents his single most inspirational and potentially far-reaching decision in the series to date. Certainly the destruction of the Death Star and his effort to redeem Anakin rank up there too, mind, but I think this one feels like an appropriately epic escalation and finale for the Luke Skywalker story - operatic, even! It's also just cool and slick in a way Luke struggled to be in the earlier films, when he was easily overshadowed by Han.

IIRC there's a specific reference that he went to the island to die. I don't think it's primarily the exhaustion that kills him (certainly couldn't have helped :pac:), but more that he's reached that moment of peace & transcendence he was looking for. One of the primary themes of the film is the idea of passing the torch, and the past's influence on the present and future... when Luke chooses to end his story, much like Obi-Wan did, it's that idea of his own narrative being over, but the broader story (or the franchise itself if we're talking in its meta-commentary terms) very much continuing on.

pixelburp

Parking the Last Jedi, Star Wars has always been an aesthetics driven science fiction franchise, no two ways about it. A great deal of its success was very much down to those imaginative, fantastical designs and styles, swooping about within gorgeous old school Hollywood compositions.

Unlike other universes that either pay lip service to, or fully embrace, real scientific principles, Star Wars couldn't give a damn about technobabble. In fact it barely obeyed simple laws of physics half the time where it exists more as Science Fantasy than Fiction - so yeah, bombers in space are fine with me. But no tech, ship or vehicle ever came out of LucasFilm without it obeying the first rule: screw the science... does it LOOK cool?

buried

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well putting aside my own view that TLJ is the most interesting story told in this series to date (yes, yes, but you're not going to convince me otherwise )... this is still a rather preposterous suggestion. Star Wars has always, at its best, been a triumph of filmmaking over a mere story. I mean, look at A New Hope alone, which isn't even the best film in the series:

But these films are stories, basic soap opera in space, you have to be able to get behind the characters and resonate with them on some sort of level you understand. If you can't create that, then what is the point? People aren't going to want to sit through 2 hours of special effects and glitzy special sequential editing if they can't relate to the story or characters. You may as well ask people to watch somebody else play a video game for 2 hours.

johnny_ultimate

buried wrote: »

But these films are stories, basic soap opera in space, you have to be able to get behind the characters and resonate with them on some sort of level you understand. If you can't create that, then what is the point? People aren't going to want to sit through 2 hours of special effects and glitzy special sequential editing if they can't relate to the story or characters. You may as well ask people to watch somebody else play a video game for 2 hours.

Please stop shifting the goalposts. I never said the story was unimportant, I am merely pointing out that the suggestion that the filmmaking or aesthetics are unimportant or not worth commenting on in Star Wars (or any film for that matter) is utterly absurd, and I am at a complete loss as to how anyone could reasonably argue otherwise.

buried

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Please stop shifting the goalposts. I never said the story was unimportant, I am merely pointing out that the suggestion that the filmmaking or aesthetics are unimportant or not worth commenting on in Star Wars (or any film for that matter) is utterly absurd, and I am at a complete loss as to how anyone could reasonably argue otherwise.

You are the one shifting goalposts all over the theatre here man, this is what you said when you saw someone claim that the story/script is the most important aspect

this is still a rather preposterous suggestion

Or are you on about something else or what?

johnny_ultimate

buried wrote: »

You are the one shifting goalposts all over the theatre here man, this is what you said when you saw someone claim that the story/script is the most important aspect

Or are you on about something else or what?

As the same poster said: “The focus on 'filmmaking' etc. annoys me to be honest.“

If the script is someone’s primary concern, fair enough. But it still seems pretty crazy to me to fob off the craft in a series that has always shone thanks to the sheer vividness with which its world has been brought to life with. A bad, decent or good story is nothing without a whole lot of filmmaking craft

buried

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As the same poster said: “The focus on 'filmmaking' etc. annoys me to be honest.“

If the script is someone’s primary concern, fair enough. But it still seems pretty crazy to me to fob off the craft in a series that has always shone thanks to the sheer vividness with which its world has been brought to life with

Ahh yeah, I can get behind the craft and the technical effort 100% J, Its great to have fantastic visuals, but it can't be the sole effort in a mainstream production. Its like I said, trying to watch one of your mates play a fantastic looking video game, but your mate won't hand over the controller and let you have a go!

johnny_ultimate

buried wrote: »

Its great to have fantastic visuals, but it can't be the sole effort in a mainstream production. Its like I said, trying to watch one of your mates play a fantastic looking video game, but your mate won't hand over the controller and let you have a go!

I don't disagree - although I've often been frustrated by the lack of visual flair in many mainstream blockbusters (expensive, technically proficient CG does not necessarily make a visually impressive film). If anything, though, I'd cite the original Star Wars as an example of a film that wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective if wasn't crafted as artfully as it was - the script, after all, was famously ropey in many respects (not to dismiss the things it does well). It's the perfect example of a film where everything operates in unlikely harmony. As I said: a whole lot more than a decent story!

And hey, the really good storytelling didn't kick in until Empire Strikes Back anyway

J Mysterio

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well putting aside my own view that TLJ is the most interesting story told in this series to date (yes, yes, but you're not going to convince me otherwise )... this is still a rather preposterous suggestion. Star Wars has always, at its best, been a triumph of filmmaking over a mere story.

Ok, I accept your point, and it's well made. But - ultimately - what I am saying is TLJ script was poor, and any amount of filmmaking techniques can't save it. Also, i'm not trying to convince anyon of this, it's just my opinion.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

TLJ is the Episode 1 of this generation. How half of ye can't see that is beyond me.

thegreengoblin

Hunky Monster wrote: »

TLJ is the Episode 1 of this generation. How half of ye can't see that is beyond me.

It's not even close to it. I remember the feelings of deflation walking out of the cinema after TPH. I actually found myself going red with embarrassment watching some scenes. I accept there are some scenes in TLJ which are very cringeworthy and clunky (the Leia space scene being particularly awful) but I don't think there's any comparison with TPH.

TerrorFirmer

On the flipside there's nothing overly memorable about either TFA or TLJ (perhaps that lightspeed shot), but TPM boosts some excellent individual scenes that are up there with the best the franchise has to offer.

My big disappointment with the new trilogy is that while they're entirely competent, they're (so far) safe, forgettable, and ultimately amount to little more than generic sci-fi blockbusters of their time.

Objectively far better films than the prequels, but sorely lacking in any sort of flair, spirit or real conviction. Kylo Ren is possibly the only aspect, let alone character, of the entire two films that has any sort of depth or lasting power.

Smertrius

these are the words Han called ben obi wan and sound like he doesn't like ben that much then why name his son after man he hates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YjnJvIBC-A

RasTa

Just watched some of this as not a huge fan of any of these movies and all the new stuff from A Phantom Menace onwards has being rubbish but this is up there with A Phantom Menace in terms of rubbish.

Turned it off after 30-40mins as thought it was a joke movie I was watching and the editing was pissing me off. The final straw was when Luke caught his fish with some owl creature looking on.

golfball37

RasTa wrote: »

Just watched some of this as not a huge fan of any of these movies and all the new stuff from A Phantom Menace onwards has being rubbish but this is up there with A Phantom Menace in terms of rubbish.

Turned it off after 30-40mins as thought it was a joke movie I was watching and the editing was pissing me off. The final straw was when Luke caught his fish with some owl creature looking on.

Your doing pm a disservice, this is far worse than that imo.

SimonTemplar

I really recommend this analysis highlighting the movie's biggest strength and greatest weakness in a thoughtful and balanced fashion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYN2Lp9oHMk

In fact, this guy's entire channel is great. Very smart movie analysis.

Tony EH

All of that just convinces me even more that we didn't need Finn or Poe taking up screen time from Rey and Kylo.

How much better would both films have been if they were completely free to truly explore just the two characters in a more meaningful way?

'The Force Awakens' would have benefitted from her having more time to struggle with her path and actually have a bit of character development. Time spent with her discovering her powers and learning how to use them, instead of just being an instant Jedi and downloading everything she needed, and being a great pilot, a great swordsman, a great engineer and whatever else the plot needed her to be great at.

In 'The Last Jedi', Finn and Poe's subplots are so intrusive on Rey's story, it destroys the entire film. Even people who like 'The Last Jedi' hate that dumb casino planet nonsense.

It's all a real shame that JJ Abrams decided to do a simple ripoff of the original 1977 film, including using a three lead hook. The entire trilogy's problems start with him.

He really is one of the worst things about modern cinema.

Wedwood

Well, Kelly Marie Tran (Rose) has deleted her social media account due the hounding/hate she's received online from supposed 'fans'.

And of course all these anonymous spiteful little keyboard warriors will say 'wasn't me'.

salmocab

Wedwood wrote: »

Well, Kelly Marie Tran (Rose) has deleted her social media account due the hounding/hate she's received online from supposed 'fans'.

And of course all these anonymous spiteful little keyboard warriors will say 'wasn't me'.

Have to say I didn’t dislike her character and I suspect if she had been a stunning young actress people might have liked her more. Or at least not have really hated her as much.

pixelburp

It's particularly sad because what little I'd read of her, Marie Tran seemed like a decent, genuinely nice individual who appreciated the weight of the role she had taken on, and was excited to be part of an evolving pop culture mythology. She seemed like the kind of actor who'd work well with the community.

Her treatment though is just repugnant in the extreme, and it's a different kind of sad that those who'd call themselves 'fans' would share their love in that kind of fashion. Jealous, bitter, hateful individuals really, and it's hard not to speculate what kind of folks they are in the real world that bullying an actor is right or proper. You'd also wonder if any Boards members are along those lines. Statistically speaking, it's possible.

It just makes the wailing and whinging about SJWs or PC-gone-mad taste especially meanspirited, cos this is where that false, hollow outrage ends up when taken to extremes. A thousand problems in the world, and a little representation in blockbusters shouldn't be one of them.

tigger123

I used to follow her on Instagram and she came across as a thoroughly decent person. Very positive in her outlook and excited by the life she's living.

SW fan base has a real toxic element to it. Sooner the better they move on tbh. If ya don't like it, don't watch it.

Tony EH

Wedwood wrote: »

Well, Kelly Marie Tran (Rose) has deleted her social media account due the hounding/hate she's received online from supposed 'fans'.

And of course all these anonymous spiteful little keyboard warriors will say 'wasn't me'.

Welcome to the internet of 2018.

Unfortunately, choc-a-bloc with clowns who can't control their words.

Let me guess, it was twitter or instagram, yes? Those type of fire and forget comments sections are the scourge of the web.

Although, I'm no fan of her character myself, it's lamentable to have to put up with stupid people saying stupid things over a stupid movie.