Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Tony EH

Fysh wrote: »

Ah here, whatever TLJ's faults it's no Phantom Menace.

Don't start me on the prequels, you won't like me when I'm started on the prequels.

Fysh wrote: »

And if that didn't kill SW fandom (which these days is at least as much about the animated series and the, what, 3 decades or so worth of games?) then neither will this. (Though as one who's never been all that fussed about SW, a retreat of some of the nostalgia-fuelled SW mania would be somewhat welcome....)

Well, it kinda did. The prequels killed Star Wars for ten years. It sapped Lucas's will to live, which is why he sold it off to the mouse. There was a lot of good will shown to Disney at the beginning and fans were open to see what they could do with Lucas' baby, because George didn't know any more. But, with every misstep that Mickey takes, that good will is getting less and less.

As for Star Wars mania, it bloody ridiculous. But, it IS highly entertaining to look at the discussions on this thing taking place across a number of areas. On here, it's relatively mild. Cordial even. On other places, it's much more intense, to the point of worry.

Fysh wrote: »

Time may not absolve TLJ of its faults but hopefully it will allow some of the hyperbolic butthurt to die down. Not liking it is fair enough; making statements like "It's killed Star Wars" is a bit silly, though

I think the web has accentuated the hyperbole to an absurd degree. In saying that, though, I've yet to meet anyone in the real world who's actually liked the film. But, on the net, arguments are often terse and it looks like extremism. Most people, say their piece in a decent manner, without the nonsense. But, even without the hair pullers, there are a lot of folk for whom the film didn't deliver on any entertainment level.

Of course, 'The Last Jedi' hasn't "killed" anything - except Luke Skywalker, of course, and a lot of people's enthusiasm for Ep. IX - but, it's safe to say that it has severely damaged the brand. Disney have had a couple of warning shots across their bow, so I guess it's up to them on how to proceed.

Fysh

Tony EH wrote: »

Don't start me on the prequels, you won't like me when I'm started on the prequels.

I actually find myself bringing them up repeatedly when people get silly about TLJ, because there are a good few folks who seem to have erased the prequels from memory. Which, ok, is the smart response. But it's relevant when arguing about the impact of a bad (or poorly-received-by-fans) film...

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, it kinda did. The prequels killed Star Wars for ten years. It sapped Lucas's will to live, which is why he sold it off to the mouse. There was a lot of good will shown to Disney at the beginning and fans were open to see what they could do with Lucas' baby, because George didn't know any more. But, with every misstep that Mickey takes, that good will is getting less and less.

No, they killed interest in film versions for a while. The first Clone Wars cartoon started before RotS and we're six seasons into the new version. Likewise there have been loads of games - console and PC, single and multiplayer - released which are very popular, and I haven't even mentioned the EU (which is still out there, Disney dismissal notwithstanding). And there are several current comic series set in the Star Wars Universe.

To some extent I can't help wonder if part of what's happening is that the film series is now catching up to the fact that the rest of Star Wars is not focused on the same characters as the OT, and that is making longer standing (older?) fans feel left out (which, while perhaps understandable as an emotional response, ignores the reality that in the several decades since the first film, time has moved on, and the whole thing can't just stay the same as though it's trapped in amber...).

Tony EH wrote: »

As for Star Wars mania, it bloody ridiculous. But, it IS highly entertaining to look at the discussions on this thing taking place across a number of areas. On here, it's relatively mild. Cordial even. On other places, it's much more intense, to the point of worry.

I think the web has accentuated the hyperbole to an absurd degree. In saying that, though, I've yet to meet anyone in the real world who's actually liked the film. But, on the net, arguments are often terse and it looks like extremism. Most people, say their piece in a decent manner, without the nonsense. But, even without the hair pullers, there are a lot of folk for whom the film didn't deliver on any entertainment level.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand being disappointed at the film and feeling it didn't deliver (but even so, "At least it's not TPM" has to axiomatically be the starting point for any criticism). I just don't think it's worth some of the performative wailing and gnashing of teeth, because at its very worst it's still not the worst Star Wars film.

Tony EH wrote: »

Of course, 'The Last Jedi' hasn't "killed" anything - except Luke Skywalker, of course, and a lot of people's enthusiasm for Ep. IX - but, it's safe to say that it has severely damaged the brand. Disney have had a couple of warning shots across their bow, so I guess it's up to them on how to proceed.

Ah come on. A film that grosses $1.3B worldwide before home media and streaming cash is not "a warning shot across the bow", epic fan whingeing or not. No, it didn't outdo the previous film, but unlike the previous film it was the first SW film in about a year, rather than a decade. (Plus let's not forget that I'm sure some people were put off by Abram's "let's just remake the ANH story" approach).

So really we've got 1 under-performing dud in Solo, and frankly I'm kind of glad about that - not in and anti-SW sense but because Disney's release slate makes it tedious if you're a film fan who doesn't care for Star Wars or the MCU, and the increasing bullying they've been subjecting cinemas to with Star Wars makes it less likely that any good films will be showing at the same time. They're like the friggin' Borg of film production, and I think it would do the film industry a lot of good if they stumbled a bit and the playing field evened out a bit.

Smertrius

since Luke skywalker is died is this star wars universe and not dead original starwars universe , star wars series isn't worth watching any more

Tony EH

Fysh wrote: »

I actually find myself bringing them up repeatedly when people get silly about TLJ, because there are a good few folks who seem to have erased the prequels from memory. Which, ok, is the smart response. But it's relevant when arguing about the impact of a bad (or poorly-received-by-fans) film...

There's been a lot of prequel forgiveness lately. But, that's because there's no real discussion to be had about them any more. Most people have either just forgotten about them, or don't care now and the people that like them still like them. But, they're over and done with. They're kinda like a stain on a rug you like. There's just no point to dealing with it, it's not going anywhere.

Fysh wrote: »

No, they killed interest in film versions for a while. The first Clone Wars cartoon started before RotS and we're six seasons into the new version. Likewise there have been loads of games - console and PC, single and multiplayer - released which are very popular, and I haven't even mentioned the EU (which is still out there, Disney dismissal notwithstanding). And there are several current comic series set in the Star Wars Universe.

To some extent I can't help wonder if part of what's happening is that the film series is now catching up to the fact that the rest of Star Wars is not focused on the same characters as the OT, and that is making longer standing (older?) fans feel left out (which, while perhaps understandable as an emotional response, ignores the reality that in the several decades since the first film, time has moved on, and the whole thing can't just stay the same as though it's trapped in amber...).

Sure, the secondary and tertiary markets were still going. But thing everyone wanted - new Star Wars movies - was as dead as Dillinger.

I don't really think that it has anything to do with Disney hanging their coat on the OT gang's hook as it were. In fact, I think it would have been better if they'd never brought the old crew back, because they've made a right balls of that. It's more a case of folk just not buying into what Disney have produced, over all, because it's all so half baked. If the characters and stories were actually good, on their own (and not just as a rehash of what's come before), then they'd be embraced more readily, I reckon.

The problem, of course, lays at the feet of JJ Abrams, who's reboot/remake approach pretty much buggered the sequel trilogy before it began. Johnson's approach didn't help, though, it has to be said. Chucking everything over your shoulder in the middle act of a three act play is just not a good idea. He clearly thought that nothing JJ set up mattered, so consequently, why should the audience? Now JJ has to come in and try and salvage the mess. Crazy stuff.

Fysh wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I can understand being disappointed at the film and feeling it didn't deliver (but even so, "At least it's not TPM" has to axiomatically be the starting point for any criticism). I just don't think it's worth some of the performative wailing and gnashing of teeth, because at its very worst it's still not the worst Star Wars film.

Personally, I thought 'Attack of the Clones' was the nadir of Star Wars movies, so my sentence would be "At least it's not AotC". So, no, 'The Last Jedi' is not the worst. But, it comes close on occasion. I'm still waiting for some faneditor to save it.

Fysh wrote: »

Ah come on. A film that grosses $1.3B worldwide before home media and streaming cash is not "a warning shot across the bow", epic fan whingeing or not. No, it didn't outdo the previous film, but unlike the previous film it was the first SW film in about a year, rather than a decade. (Plus let's not forget that I'm sure some people were put off by Abram's "let's just remake the ANH story" approach).

Box office doesn't equate audience satisfaction. Many, many people bought a ticket to see the film and didn't like it.

However, the "warning shots" I'm referring to are audience division over 'The Last Jedi' and their non-attendance for 'Solo' and Disney are taking those warning shots very seriously indeed. There's still no mention of Johnson's trilogy and a hiatus on every other (prematurely) announced film. We'll see how IX pads out next year.

Fysh wrote: »

So really we've got 1 under-performing dud in Solo, and frankly I'm kind of glad about that - not in and anti-SW sense but because Disney's release slate makes it tedious if you're a film fan who doesn't care for Star Wars or the MCU, and the increasing bullying they've been subjecting cinemas to with Star Wars makes it less likely that any good films will be showing at the same time. They're like the friggin' Borg of film production, and I think it would do the film industry a lot of good if they stumbled a bit and the playing field evened out a bit.

Couldn't agree more. The current state of cinema is depressing. Even though I yap about Star Wars on here, there's really only four films that I like and it's looking increasingly like 'Rogue One' was an upward tick on an otherwise downward trend. Also, I just don't care for Marvel, or superhero films in general, so a trip to the pictures is getting rarer and rarer for me, because it seems that everybody is showing the latest Disney Big Mac.

johnny_ultimate

Tony EH wrote: »

The current state of cinema is depressing.

Films currently screening: Cold War, The Rider, Lucky, Wajib, Climax, The Little Stranger, BlackKklansman, Mission Impossible Fallout, Searching, Matangi / Maya / M.I.A., and several others... I’ve seen all but three of those named there (and will get to the remaining ones over the next few days), and they range from well worth seeing to masterclasses in the form.

I mean, I too have quite significant concerns about the multiplexes being over-occupied by Disney films. But cinema is very much alive and kicking... people just need to make an effort to go see the good stuff (allowing for some areas not having an independent or arthouse cinema nearby)

Smertrius

much better disney stuck with the original canon star wars, instead doing their own canon star wars, which isn't working

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I mean, I too have quite significant concerns about the multiplexes being over-occupied by Disney films. But cinema is very much alive and kicking... people just need to make an effort to go see the good stuff (allowing for some areas not having an independent or arthouse cinema nearby)

Sure, but you get what I mean.

Foxtrol

Smertrius wrote: »

much better disney stuck with the original canon star wars, instead doing their own canon star wars, which isn't working

They'd done far too much with original canon. So many stories had been told that you could never get the general public up to speed while staying true to it and telling a new story.

I feel they should have taken more of the MCU route though and leveraged characters already known from the original canon but using their own take on them and their stories. I'm this would still have pissed people off though

Smertrius

these new Starwars TAKE about a year to make with too much cgi and copying old star wars also rushing them in pushing them in hurry out there into cinemas for all us to see. If they took their time to make a good few years to correct them and took more care for them and have a good or great backstory they make more money and people will love them and their fans too.