Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Tony EH

kerplun k wrote: »

Jaysus, yer a hard man to please.

Maybe :pac:

Seriously though. If I'm critical of something, I'll tell you why.

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

Aye, well we can hope.

Can't say I've been too enthused by what I've seen for 'The Last Jedi' yet though. The trailer was ok, but nothing else has done it. The nouveau AT-AT's were just eye rolling.

On the plus side, Johnson has actually made a film that I liked.

Abrams hasn't though. In addition, I just don't like Abrams way of doing things. He's too much of a "wouldn't it be kewl if..." type of director, regardless of whether something ends up being utterly stupid and devoid of any logic whatsoever. Hiding the Enterprise under water? Dumb, but kewl. Rey doing a jedi mindtrick, despite thinking that the force, jedis and luke skywalker were a myth earlier that very day. Dumb, but kewl. Han Solo, going back to old job as a smuggler despite being a GENERAL in a rebellion that saw the end of a galaxy wide Empire. Dumb, but kewl. :rolleyes:

His writing leaves an AWFUL lot to be desired too. People like Rey, largely because they find Ridley charming. But she's a nothing character. She's Abram's "mystery box" personified. Hopefully, johnson can actually give her something to be challenged by in his film. Finn, too, is awful. A goofy, ha ha type, that gives the more stupid elements of an audience something to laugh at. But, his character never makes a lick of sense. Not even once. And Poe is pretty much nobody that could be played by anybody. There's nothing there, except a GOAT x-wing pilot, who's the centre of another Abram's type kewl scene that sees him wipe out a squadron of nouveau TIE fighters in one of the most laughable sections of the film.

Objectively speaking, 'The Force Awakens' was disappointing on so many levels. A lot of them were intellectually insulting too. The writing was quite bad, the characters poor, it relied far too much of callbacks to previous Star Wars films and some of the action scenes descended into silliness.

I'm hoping for the best from 'The Last Jedi'. But, it's terribly disappointing to see JJ the reboot guy back at the helm for IX.

A lot to agree with there, but you have omitted some of the 'kewl, but not dumb' moments such as the lightsabre fight between Rey and Kylo - one of the best if not the best fights of all the Star Wars films. You also don't mention the unique way which Kylo has come about: a Sith who fears the lightside as opposed to the usual reversal.

There are strands and moments of quality in TFA, and all we can hope for now is that JJ will be given more freedom to dig a little deeper and go a little more wild. Lucasfilm could have picked worse directors: Trevorrow, Lucas, Bay, Snyder, Whedon, etc.

Tony EH

Falthyron wrote: »

A lot to agree with there, but you have omitted some of the 'kewl, but not dumb' moments such as the lightsabre fight between Rey and Kylo - one of the best if not the best fights of all the Star Wars films. You also don't mention the unique way which Kylo has come about: a Sith who fears the lightside as opposed to the usual reversal.

Um...to me that's still in the "dumb, but kewl" bin. We're talking about a girl who's never wielded a lightsaber before in her life and using it like a pro, against a guy who's been training for years presumably? And yeh, I know he's injured and all that. But the point remains. Simple fact is, that there shouldn't have been a light sabre fight in 'The Force Awakens' at all. That should have been left til 'The Last Jedi', where it would have made much more sense, logically.

As for Kylo, we don't know anything about him. He's really just a mish-mash of Anakin and Vader. A cloaked, masked badguy, cos there was a cloaked masked badguy in the 1977 film. We have no idea why he's doing what he's doing. We have no idea why he's following Snoke. We don't even know who Snoke is.

It's typical JJ crap.

Hopefully, Johnson's film can sort out a few answers for JJ's terrible writing. But, really...don't hold your breath.

Falthyron wrote: »

There are strands and moments of quality in TFA, and all we can hope for now is that JJ will be given more freedom to dig a little deeper and go a little more wild. Lucasfilm could have picked worse directors: Trevorrow, Lucas, Bay, Snyder, Whedon, etc.

Agreed, there are strands. But there's far too much stupid (unnecessary stupid too) going on for the film to stand as a truly enjoyable experience.

As for the others, I agree. They're quite awful and unsuited to Star Wars (even though Lucas birthed it, I think he's just lost it now and I think he knows that himself).

It still isn't going to make me wave a flag fro JJ and that's entirely down to JJ.

Mickeroo

Tony EH wrote: »

As for Kylo, we don't know anything about him. He's really just a mish-mash of Anakin and Vader. A cloaked, masked badguy, cos there was a cloaked masked badguy in the 1977 film. We have no idea why he's doing what he's doing. We have no idea why he's following Snoke. We don't even know who Snoke is.

I think most of your criticisms of TFA are fair enough (though not a big deal to me personally), but I really don't see where you're coming from with this. He's by far the most developed and clear cut character in the film and his motivations are pretty well illustrated from what I remember. He was the best thing about the film by a long shot imo.

Tony EH

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think most of your criticisms of TFA are fair enough (though not a big deal to me personally), but I really don't see where you're coming from with this. He's by far the most developed and clear cut character in the film and his motivations are pretty well illustrated from what I remember. He was the best thing about the film by a long shot imo.

He's whinny, frustrated and subject to falling to the darkside like Anakin and a cloaked, masked badguy like Vader. What's not to understand?

Kylo Ren never needed a mask. His character probably would have been better he wasn't masked. He should have started out unmasked and freshfaced. Then scared up, forcing the mask upon him. It would have made more sense.

I agree, he's one of the better things about the film. I like the character despite the writing flaws and Driver does a good job with him. But, there is still far too much left out of his story for me to consider him a good character. He's better than Rey, Finn, Poe or Maz (ugh), but his slate is still woefully blank. He's a JJ "character". A little bit of what came before, mixed with something else and left for somebody else to flesh out.

As for his motives. What are they? I have no idea why he's chosen the path he has. I have no idea what hold Snoke has over him. No idea why he an Luke fell out. No idea who the Knights of Ren are.

True, we have two more films to go, but I just don't see any real answers coming.

Mickeroo

Tony EH wrote: »

He's whinny, frustrated and subject to falling to the darkside like Anakin and a cloaked, masked badguy like Vader. What's not to understand?

Kylo Ren never needed a mask. His character probably would have been better he wasn't masked. He should have started out unmasked and freshfaced. Then scared up, forcing the mask upon him. It would have made more sense.

I agree, he's one of the better things about the film. I like the character despite the writing flaws and Driver does a good job with him. But, there is still far too much left out of his story for me to consider him a good character. He's better than Rey, Finn, Poe or Maz (ugh), but his slate is still woefully blank. He's a JJ "character". A little bit of what came before, mixed with something else and left for somebody else to flesh out.

As for his motives. What are they? I have no idea why he's chosen the path he has. I have no idea what hold Snoke has over him. No idea why he an Luke fell out. No idea who the Knights of Ren are.

True, we have two more films to go, but I just don't see any real answers coming.

I understand the character fine, you said we know nothing about him and I didn't understand how you could think that but now you're saying you don't like him because he's whiny and frustrated etc. Fair enough if you didn't like that but there's nothing inherently wrong with a character having those traits in a film and in this case they've done a better job of making him sympathetic while having those traits than they did with Anakin (imo).

As for him not needing the mask, well that's kind of the point, it's a conceit because he wants to be his grandfather and I thought it was a good idea. It's much more interesting from a character perspective than another scarred bad guy in a mask. if he actually needed the mask the way you're saying then they'd be just even more guilty of rehashing old ground as he actually would be just Darth Vader 2.0.

I don't buy he's in any way blank, fair enough we don't know how he ended up with Snoke or how his relationship with Luke fell apart but it is the first act of a three act story after all. I think his idolisation of his grandfather and his turmoil over his parents and fully embracing the darkside provided enough clarity for his character arch in TFA.

Tony EH

Mickeroo wrote: »

I understand the character fine, you said we know nothing about him and I didn't understand how you could think that but now you're saying you don't like him because he's whiny and frustrated etc.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Fair enough if you didn't like that but there's nothing inherently wrong with a character having those traits in a film and in this case they've done a better job of making him sympathetic while having those traits than they did with Anakin (imo).

Again, I mentioned nothing about "not liking that". I was asked how was Kylo was a cross between Anakin and Vader and I explained it.

I've mentioned nothing about "not liking him". In fact, I've said multiple times that he's probably the best aspect of the film:

"I like the character despite the writing flaws and Driver does a good job with him."

However, at the same time we, as an audience, know practically nothing about him, or why he's doing what he's doing. This may or may not get addressed in the next two films. But, as a film on its own merits, 'The Force Awakens' does an awful job in that regard.

Mickeroo wrote: »

As for him not needing the mask, well that's kind of the point, it's a conceit because he wants to be his grandfather and I thought it was a good idea. It's much more interesting from a character perspective than another scarred bad guy in a mask. if he actually needed the mask the way you're saying then they'd be just even more guilty of rehashing old ground as he actually would be just Darth Vader 2.0.

Perhaps.

But, maybe just don't mask him in the first place. There's plenty of Sith that don't have masks. I understand he's trying to emulate Vader. But, it still doesn't sit well with me. There's need for it and nearly everyone was underwhelmed when the mask came off.

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't buy he's in any way blank, fair enough we don't know how he ended up with Snoke or how his relationship with Luke fell apart but it is the first act of a three act story after all. I think his idolisation of his grandfather and his turmoil over his parents and fully embracing the darkside provided enough clarity for his character arch in TFA.

There's a lot more that could have and should have been clarified. My thing is that most or all of those questions set up in 'The Force Awakens' are now just going to be swept under the carpet. We'll probably get a little insight into what happened with Luke and Kylo in 'The Last Jedi', but I doubt we'll get any more info on just what the hell he wants or why he wants it, or why he chose to "finish" what his Grandfather "started", whatever that actually meant.

In any case, Kylo isn't really a problem, when compared with the other characters ans story elements in the film.

Mickeroo

Fair enough, my issue wasn't about you liking or disliking the character anyway it was the whole blank aspect which I just don't see at all.

I'd be shocked if any of that stuff was swept under the carpet though, the film was as much about him as it was about Rey (maybe even mroe so since he was actually interesting) so it would be crazy if they didn't delve into that stuff over the next two films.

Tony EH

There'll probably be a little more on Kylo and Luke's fallout. God, I hope so. That would be terrible stuff to leave hanging. But, I reckon we won't be any the wiser on a lot of things that were set up in 'The Force Awakens', because I don't think Abrams was that bothered in their resolution in the first place.

When Maz says "That's a story for another time" about how she came into possession of Luke's lightsaber, I kinda felt that was the key line in the whole film. Perhaps the whole trilogy.

Osmosis Jones

We didn't know much about Vader aside from the fact that he was "seduced by the dark side." They then decided to give us 3 movies about how he was seduced and they were complete shít.

Goodshape

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

We didn't know much about Vader aside from the fact that he was "seduced by the dark side." They then decided to give us 3 movies about how he was seduced and they were complete shít.

And what's with Lia, in Episode 4, anyway? A "Princess"? Only because they say so I guess. Never really seems to make a difference except that "saving the princess" is kewl.


And Han Solo? We're supposed to like this guy, why exactly? A space smuggler, but no back story or reason given. Just because it's kewl I guess.


Or Chewie. Right, because having an unintelligible giant bear as your co-pilot makes sense. Pu-lease.


How convenient that the droids would land on Luke's planet and just "happen" to run into him. It's like they didn't even try to write a convincing story.


I don't hold out much hope for Episode 5, that's for sure.

Tony EH

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

We didn't know much about Vader aside from the fact that he was "seduced by the dark side." They then decided to give us 3 movies about how he was seduced and they were complete shít.

Yeh, but at the same time Vader was new. Nobody had seen something like that before. It was fresh.

When Vader walked through the door in the opening of 'Star Wars', nobody knew what to make of him. Most people didn't know if he was a robot or a bloke or what. It was a thrilling moment and one of the greatest entrances in cinema history.

When Kylo steps off his shuttle, it's almost a FFS moment.

Agree completely about the missed opportunity that the prequels were to tell Anakin Skywalker's story. you won't get any argument out of me there.

Tony EH

Goodshape wrote: »

And what's with Lia, in Episode 4, anyway? A "Princess"? Only because they say so I guess. Never really seems to make a difference except that "saving the princess" is kewl.

We know everything we need to know about Leia. She's a princess of Alderan, who's also a member of the rebellion against the Empire. She's on her way to Ben Kenobi to enlist his help against that Empire. She has clear, established motivation and purpose.

Goodshape wrote: »

And Han Solo? We're supposed to like this guy, why exactly? A space smuggler, but no back story or reason given. Just because it's kewl I guess.

Solo is a dodgy geezer, who's in debt to his boss for dumping cargo. He's desperate and needs the money. We not supposed to feel anything about him and the backstory he receives is perfectly adequate. He has clear, established motivation and purpose.

Goodshape wrote: »

Or Chewie. Right, because having an unintelligible giant bear as your co-pilot makes sense. Pu-lease.

This is just silly

Goodshape wrote: »

How convenient that the droids would land on Luke's planet and just "happen" to run into him. It's like they didn't even try to write a convincing story.

It's not really that convenient at all. Leia was on her way to Tatooine to get Kenobi's help in her fight against the Empire. There's an element of luck that they eventually get to Skywalker's gaff via Jawas, but Leia's ship was heading there anyway. R2D2 has also been given a mission to seek out Kenobi. So, they would have got there anyway.

Goodshape

You're reaching there, Tony.

Star Wars was never a deep character study kind of thing. Those characters are as paper thin as they come. Good vs evil, black vs white, poor farm boy vs intergalactic evil power.

They're space adventure films and TFA fit that bill perfectly well. Great fun, really not that that much to think about.

Tony EH

Goodshape wrote: »

You're reaching there, Tony.

No. Your efforts at criticisng the original films are off, by a country mile. There's much stuff to criticise in those films. But it's nothing you've mentioned.

Goodshape wrote: »

Star Wars was never a deep character study kind of thing.

Neither I, nor anyone else on the thread has said that it was.

Goodshape wrote: »

They're space adventure films and TFA fit that bill perfectly well. Great fun, really not that that much to think about.

I don't think anyone has said this either.

However, it's perfectly valid to point out bad writing and direction in a movie.

Goodshape

I was definitely being a bit tongue-in-cheek, yeah.

But I absolutely maintain that Star Wars is a series of fun adventure movies. And great as they are (sometimes) at being fun adventure movies, they're not any better or more important than that.

The characters and their motivations work perfectly fine to get the story going and maintain excitement and interest. Don't know what I'd talk to any of them about over a few pints though, because they're totally two dimensional.

Tony EH

Goodshape wrote: »

But I absolutely maintain that Star Wars is a series of fun adventure movies. And great as they are (sometimes) at being fun adventure movies, they're not any better or more important than that.

Agreed. It's a rather self indulgent pastime. But completely unimportant, outside the factor of entertainment. If someone puts it above that then they need to address some things in their life.

However, that doesn't mean that people won't discuss their likes and dislikes regarding their entertainment.

Goodshape wrote: »

The characters and their motivations work perfectly fine to get the story going and maintain excitement and interest.

But, this is the issue. The central characters in the OT have enough motivation for their actions and their place in the story. They possess a certain logic and their actions make sense. Sure, there are issues with bad writing in the OT (father/sister nonsense). But, by and large, it runs with its own logic.

The characters in ST are ridiculous by comparison and their actions are often incredible (for the wrong reasons). Finn, a 20 year vet suddenly decides to quit on his first mission? What? What was he doing for 20 years? Then in the blink of an eye massacres he mates without a single ounce of conflict? Then he turns into a goofball, cos there needs to some comedy? Rey can do anything she wants. There's no struggle for her in anything. Even though she's been abandoned on a desert backwater for most of her life, she's adept at flying, fencing, languages, engineering and anything she turns her hand to...because why? And Poe is just there.

They are all literally just there to drive a (poor) story along.

Theboinkmaster

Tony EH wrote: »

But, maybe just don't mask him in the first place. There's plenty of Sith that don't have masks. I understand he's trying to emulate Vader. But, it still doesn't sit well with me. There's need for it and nearly everyone was underwhelmed "started", whatever that actually meant.

To be fair who cares about the mask, I thought they did very well with it and I certainly wasn't underwhelmed when he took it off.

I loved all of the Kylo scenes and throught they were perfect, he was one of the best things about the film.

I have major issues with another death star, the overall story being a new hope ripoff and the whole rathtar escape sequence - all leading to be being a bit meh about the film.

But to be fair to JJ he rebooted the franchise successfully, though with eps 8 and 9 there will be no excuses and I'm expecting significantly better films. I hope.

kerplun k

Tony EH wrote: »

And Poe is just there.

Poe is the best damn pilot in the galaxy, and I wont hear a bad word said about him.

On a side note, Wouldn't it be funny if each movie had Fin continuously acquire a piece of Poe's clothing, which see's Fin battle the Galactic Empire in full Poe attire at the end of IX

david75

So basically, Star Wars : Groundhog Day. Both on screen and this thread

I get sh!t cos I've travelled all over to see my favourite band(39 times now) and people go but it's the same thing every night why bother?(it's not) And I'm like yeah you follow your team in the premiership surely by that logic it's the same game every time why bother?

Beauty of Star Wars is you can take it totally face value what it is, a fun space adventure that casts a spell on all ages or you can go as deep as you want into the fabric of it and the mythology both on a character basis or the big scale rebellion/political scope etc. As to the film making? They don't want to make crap films that are just copies. It's a lazy criticism to make no matter how many times you post it. Think we all hope it to some weird impossible level or ideal that simply isn't reachable.

I'm ready for last Jedi to be the new best Star Wars film of all and unseat Empire as king. It's game on of that happens and everything after that has to aim for that bar. Same time trying to temper expectations cos it's usually us lot that set ourselves up for a fall if it doesn't do what we want/demand of Star Wars (like rogue one for me or TFA for Tony)

It's brilliant we still have it and it gives us so much to talk about though.

Tony EH

kerplun k wrote: »

Poe is the best damn pilot in the galaxy, and I wont hear a bad word said about him.

:pac:

kerplun k wrote: »

On a side note, Wouldn't it be funny if each movie had Fin continuously acquire a piece of Poe's clothing, which see's Fin battle the Galactic Empire in full Poe attire at the end of IX

Well, if this image is anything to go by, Poe has already raided Han Solo's wardrobe from 'The Empire Strikes Back' :rolleyes:



So, Finn is free to wear whatever he wants.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

:pac:



Well, if this image is anything to go by, Poe has already raided Han Solo's wardrobe from 'The Empire Strikes Back' :rolleyes:



So, Finn is free to wear whatever he wants.

He's so damn handsome though isn't he? Total fanny magnet

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

He's so damn handsome though isn't he? Total fanny magnet

david75

Now I'm wondering what it says on his flight suit.

This tho.
https://twitter.com/theforcepod/status/904794098070147073

david75

This interview is awesome. God I love Harrison ford.


—finished with ‘Star Wars'?

“Um, I mean, I'm finished with Star Wars if Star Wars is finished with me.”

And if 'Star Wars' isn't finished with you?

“I can't imagine it. But it is science fiction.”


https://www.gq.com/story/harrison-ford-gq-cover-story-2017/amp

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

This interview is awesome. God I love Harrison ford.


—finished with ‘Star Wars'?

“Um, I mean, I'm finished with Star Wars if Star Wars is finished with me.”

And if 'Star Wars' isn't finished with you?

“I can't imagine it. But it is science fiction.”


https://www.gq.com/story/harrison-ford-gq-cover-story-2017/amp

Translation: "If they find a cheque large enough, I am good-to-go."

david75

Falthyron wrote: »

Translation: "If they find a cheque large enough, I am good-to-go."

Basically yeah and no blame to him. Did you read it? His reply to the new Indy film question was pure gold

Tony EH

I'd blame him. :mad:

The git spent decades whining about killing off Han Solo - whining that was actually quite disrespectful to the legions of fans that thought he was the best thing about the whole series - the character that gave him his career. Without Solo, Ford would be nothing. There'd be no Indy, there'd be no 'Blade Runner'. He'd be stuck in shite like 'Working Girl'.

Now, he got his wish and a bucket load of money too.

Frankly, he can fuck off now.

Please, please, please Star Wars...don't resurrect Solo. He's dead. Let him stay that way.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

I'd blame him. :mad:

The git spent decades whining about killing off Han Solo - whining that was actually quite disrespectful to the legions of fans that thought he was the best thing about the whole series - the character that gave him his career. Without Solo, Ford would be nothing. There'd be no Indy, there'd be no 'Blade Runner'. He'd be stuck in shite like 'Working Girl'.

Now, he got his wish and a bucket load of money too.

Frankly, he can fuck off now.

Please, please, please Star Wars...don't resurrect Solo. He's dead. Let him stay that way.

You know they're making a young Han Solo film right?

Tbh I think Ford has the right to be that cranky old man. He's made a massive contribution to cinema. He does cranky old man well too.

pixelburp

Yeah I'd take a dim view myself on the subject of Harrison Ford: when he was at the top of the Hollywood foodchain, he wanted absolutely nothing to do with any of the Sci-Fi / genre properties that effectively put him on the map, be it Star Wars, Indiana Jones or Blade Runner. There's a big difference between friendly indifference, or even 'crankiness' & the open belligerence he frequently displayed when any reporter was brave enough to ask him about Han or Deckard.

We can speculate all we like about his motivations now, whether it's a genuine reevaluation of his attitude towards his most popular roles, or if it's just a cynical cashgrab at a time when perhaps the jobs have stopped coming in; either way, his open hostility throughout his career has made it hard to get excited or supportive of his return. It was obvious Han only came back on Ford's stipulation that he be killed off, so seems like even in his latter years the actor simply doesn't like the roles that gave him his fortune. It's a shame really - manys a genre actor positively revels in the support and enthusiasm of their fanbases, yet Ford appears to vacillate between openly and passively hating it all.