Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

lazybones32

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Was there a lot given away there?

I think too much has been given away with that trailer: at least three main points.
Sorry i watched it cos the brain is workin out how it's gonna play.

pixelburp

I dunno, ever since the the Obi-Wan and Han Solo spin-offs were announced, a little piece of my enthusiasm for Star Wars died a little; then when Abrams was unveiled as director of Episode IX, another chunk fell away. At this stage, the prospect of a new Star Wars film feels ... perfunctory. Rogue One did pick things up & hint at some flexibility in storytelling & tone, but methinks that'll ultimately be the exception to the rule.

So, yeah. The trailer looked epic and grandiose and everything I suppose you'd expect from an 'Episodic' Star Wars film, but there's a deep sense of the rote now in Star Wars that just didn't exist in Lucas' time. That while its previous owner had no qualms about squeezing every last drop of merchandise from its mythology, it's now on an industrial scale; a plucky start-up absorbed by Apple or something; all that nostalgia weaponised in a package only Disney know how to construct. I admire their Mouse House, but being in charge of both Marvel AND Star Wars feels like there's no escape.

Cynical? Yup, I know it is! But you know, I look to something like the currently broadcasting Star Trek Discovery and while it's causing lots of ructions among fans and well-wishers alike for its fast & loose approach to the canon - you can't disagree it isn't trying to stir things up & plough its own course (continuity be damned, arguably). For good or bad, Discovery will be its own story and narrative: neither slavishly adherent to nostalgia, nor completely abandoning core tenets of the mythology. To me, that's exciting; Episode VIII on the other hand, feels ... just there. It exists & is a thing.

Maybe I need another cuppa

Falthyron

I just saw the trailer. Some thoughts:

1 - I can't help but feel there is a lot of misdirection in the trailer. Kylo about to pull the trigger and kill Leia (I thought Leia isn't going to die in this film? I think she will, but the general consensus around here is that she won't); Rey possibly turning or, at least flirting with the idea, to the dark-side; Luke no longer being all morose and teasing us about being a Sith or a gray Jedi; the narration (be it Snoke or Rey) could be speaking about Kylo or Rey and it mirrors what Luke is also saying.

2 - "Let the past die" is Johnson's subtle message about avoiding the reboot argument that could be made about The Last Jedi. But...

3 - The Ice Planet battle is the Battle of Hoth. There is no getting around it now. Hell, even the shot of Leia at the giant door looking out in to the distance mirrors her waiting on Han and Luke to get back in Empire.

4 - Kylo has some sort of medical cover on his scar at the start of the trailer but its gone by the end. It might suggest that this film spans a longer time period than the last.

5 - The Porgs sound annoying. If we have to hear that squawking every time they are on screen I won't be happy.

6 - The final scene between Kylo and Rey feels like a lot of misdirection. Rey looks traumatised, or at least deliberately appearing robotic, as if she has rehearsed what she is saying and can't believe she is saying it. Adds to the speculation that she willingly goes to Snoke as per Luke's instructions.

7 - Kylo shooting Leia's ship feels like a force connection moment similar to Luke/Leia or Luke/Vader at the end of Empire.

My prediction: Luke tells Rey that she must experience both sides of the Force to truly understand balance, but secretly, he feels she is more powerful than Kylo and will resist Snoke's allure. Much of Luke's failings stem from the fact that he had no clue about the darkside or its power/methods when he faced Vader and then Palpatine. He doesn't want to send Rey into the same situation. She asks Kylo to take her to Snoke to learn about 'her place in all of this'. The raw power we hear in the narration at the start of the trailer is Snoke speaking about her, and we will have a Kylo/Rey stand-off similar to Luke/Vader infront of Palpatine. Much like Luke, Rey will not strike down Kylo after Snoke tells her to. This betrayal destroys Kylo and he then realises his father was right. He escapes (perhaps helped by Rey) and the film ends with him returning to Luke, broken, where he tells him that Kylo and Rey are connected (siblings, maybe).

A wilder idea: I think the superweapon in this film will be The Starforge. More info here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Forge
There is a lot of technology and production going on in the trailer and I wonder if there is more to that than just showing military porn. It would be an interesting way to answering how the First Order are still able to compete militarily and it would be a nice nod to preparing for the KotOR films that (hopefully) will come after this trilogy ends.

D.Q

Where would people recommend booking for midnight showings. Only seem to be able to book imax 3d in cineworld. No time for 3D

david75

D.Q wrote: »

Where would people recommend booking for midnight showings. Only seem to be able to book imax 3d in cineworld. No time for 3D

lighthouse would be my recommendation..theyre having a preparty with the 501st n everything..

david75

loads of parrallels..
https://twitter.com/LoriOrgana/status/917599697216393218

lazybones32

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe I need another cuppa

You can never go wrong with another cuppa...


I share your cynicism. I think the films are being made, first and foremost, to post major profit (the farce awakens made 2bn dollars) and if it turns out to be a good film, well, that's secondary.
Disney got half of rogue one to be reshot, so their execs are calling the shots and execs have different agendas to directors. A director wants to tell a story but execs want to appeal to demographics.

Tony EH

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, ever since the the Obi-Wan and Han Solo spin-offs were announced, a little piece of my enthusiasm for Star Wars died a little; then when Abrams was unveiled as director of Episode IX, another chunk fell away. At this stage, the prospect of a new Star Wars film feels ... perfunctory. Rogue One did pick things up & hint at some flexibility in storytelling & tone, but methinks that'll ultimately be the exception to the rule.

So, yeah. The trailer looked epic and grandiose and everything I suppose you'd expect from an 'Episodic' Star Wars film, but there's a deep sense of the rote now in Star Wars that just didn't exist in Lucas' time. That while its previous owner had no qualms about squeezing every last drop of merchandise from its mythology, it's now on an industrial scale; a plucky start-up absorbed by Apple or something; all that nostalgia weaponised in a package only Disney know how to construct. I admire their Mouse House, but being in charge of both Marvel AND Star Wars feels like there's no escape.

Cynical? Yup, I know it is! But you know, I look to something like the currently broadcasting Star Trek Discovery and while it's causing lots of ructions among fans and well-wishers alike for its fast & loose approach to the canon - you can't disagree it isn't trying to stir things up & plough its own course (continuity be damned, arguably). For good or bad, Discovery will be its own story and narrative: neither slavishly adherent to nostalgia, nor completely abandoning core tenets of the mythology. To me, that's exciting; Episode VIII on the other hand, feels ... just there. It exists & is a thing.

Maybe I need another cuppa

I certainly understand what you mean and agree largely. It feels like it's brand above all else. I suppose that makes sense. Disney bought the franchise, not because of any artistic merit or even for the story (as they've got rid of it for the most part). They stuck up the money because it's a money generator. It was a money generator for Lucas too, but also a labour of love and that came through. It's obviously arguable that that labour became strained with the prequels, but it was still Lucas' vision as it were, horribly flawed as they were.

But Disney's trilogy, so far, leaves me cold. My not having seen 'The Last Jedi' notwithstanding. I just get little from it. It feels "perfunctory" as you say. Another step on a road I already know, despite not having traveled down it before.I also haven't watched the new trailer and I won't. I'll just wait til Dec and watch the actual film, which no doubt I'll be discussing in here. But, the key thing is, I'm just not that excited for it?

The spin offs got off to a great start with 'Rogue One', the best Star Wars film since 1983 IMHO. But, yeh, I have zero interest in 'Han Solo' and look upon that with utter disdain. AN Obi Wan film could work, if done correctly. But, I'd still like to see stories from elsewhere in the GFFA.

As for 'Star Trek', I can't really comment. 'Star Trek' begins and ends for me with the 1960's series and the films with the original crew. I dip the toe in now and again for TNG. But, it never grabbed me the way it did some folk.

homerun_homer

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, ever since the the Obi-Wan and Han Solo spin-offs were announced, a little piece of my enthusiasm for Star Wars died a little.

Obi Wan wasn't announced. It's always been a strong rumour.

Hector Savage

Falthyron wrote: »

I just saw the trailer. Some thoughts:

1 - I can't help but feel there is a lot of misdirection in the trailer. Kylo about to pull the trigger and kill Leia (I thought Leia isn't going to die in this film? I think she will, but the general consensus around here is that she won't); Rey possibly turning or, at least flirting with the idea, to the dark-side; Luke no longer being all morose and teasing us about being a Sith or a gray Jedi; the narration (be it Snoke or Rey) could be speaking about Kylo or Rey and it mirrors what Luke is also saying.

2 - "Let the past die" is Johnson's subtle message about avoiding the reboot argument that could be made about The Last Jedi. But...

3 - The Ice Planet battle is the Battle of Hoth. There is no getting around it now. Hell, even the shot of Leia at the giant door looking out in to the distance mirrors her waiting on Han and Luke to get back in Empire.

4 - Kylo has some sort of medical cover on his scar at the start of the trailer but its gone by the end. It might suggest that this film spans a longer time period than the last.

5 - The Porgs sound annoying. If we have to hear that squawking every time they are on screen I won't be happy.

6 - The final scene between Kylo and Rey feels like a lot of misdirection. Rey looks traumatised, or at least deliberately appearing robotic, as if she has rehearsed what she is saying and can't believe she is saying it. Adds to the speculation that she willingly goes to Snoke as per Luke's instructions.

7 - Kylo shooting Leia's ship feels like a force connection moment similar to Luke/Leia or Luke/Vader at the end of Empire.

My prediction: Luke tells Rey that she must experience both sides of the Force to truly understand balance, but secretly, he feels she is more powerful than Kylo and will resist Snoke's allure. Much of Luke's failings stem from the fact that he had no clue about the darkside or its power/methods when he faced Vader and then Palpatine. He doesn't want to send Rey into the same situation. She asks Kylo to take her to Snoke to learn about 'her place in all of this'. The raw power we hear in the narration at the start of the trailer is Snoke speaking about her, and we will have a Kylo/Rey stand-off similar to Luke/Vader infront of Palpatine. Much like Luke, Rey will not strike down Kylo after Snoke tells her to. This betrayal destroys Kylo and he then realises his father was right. He escapes (perhaps helped by Rey) and the film ends with him returning to Luke, broken, where he tells him that Kylo and Rey are connected (siblings, maybe).

A wilder idea: I think the superweapon in this film will be The Starforge. More info here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Forge
There is a lot of technology and production going on in the trailer and I wonder if there is more to that than just showing military porn. It would be an interesting way to answering how the First Order are still able to compete militarily and it would be a nice nod to preparing for the KotOR films that (hopefully) will come after this trilogy ends.

KotOR films ?

david75

So can you not make great films and a ton of money? cos they wouldnt make any money if they were bad vapid films. Theyre bad because theyre spending and making a ton of money? if they were screwing up star wars fans would be the first ones to be heard and vote with their feet and the series would tank.

that trailer has me all kinds of excited but totally challenged too, it feels like a serious lurch into dangerous territory meaning it almost feels like something else not star wars, so i dont get the perfunctory/familiar accusation.

pixelburp

Tony EH wrote: »

[...]
The spin offs got off to a great start with 'Rogue One', the best Star Wars film since 1983 IMHO. But, yeh, I have zero interest in 'Han Solo' and look upon that with utter disdain. AN Obi Wan film could work, if done correctly. But, I'd still like to see stories from elsewhere in the GFFA.

As for 'Star Trek', I can't really comment. 'Star Trek' begins and ends for me with the 1960's series and the films with the original crew. I dip the toe in now and again for TNG. But, it never grabbed me the way it did some folk.

Honestly, at this point I would happily trade the new Trilogy for a live action TV show; or more accurately, a TV show that grounds itself properly in the world, away from the heady scale of Jedi & Sith. With the right approach, there's no reason why the tone of Rogue One couldn't be further explored - and the universe in general - from the vantage point of a medium more suited to long-term / character driven storytelling.

david75 wrote: »

So can you not make great films and a ton of money? cos they wouldnt make any money if they were bad vapid films. Theyre bad because theyre spending and making a ton of money? if they were screwing up star wars fans would be the first ones to be heard and vote with their feet and the series would tank.

that trailer has me all kinds of excited but totally challenged too, it feels like a serious lurch into dangerous territory meaning it almost feels like something else not star wars, so i dont get the perfunctory/familiar accusation.

The prequels screwed with things, testing the patience of fan & casual alike, yet the fans still went in droves; do you own the prequels on DVD / Blu-Ray? Quality is no sure sign of financial success, or vice versa.

Falthyron

Hector Savage wrote: »

KotOR films ?

Knights of the Old Republic is a series (computer game) that started in 2003 with a sequel two years later, and a spin-off Massive Multiplayer Online Game that came out in 2011. It is widely regarded as one of the better off-canon Star Wars eras created with wonderful characters like HK-47 (an assassin droid) and Bastila Shan (a Jedi Master - who I secretly think Rey is being based off).

Here are the CGI trailers made by BioWare for the MMO (The Old Republic). As you will probably notice, they are superior in almost every way to the prequels :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R51LMIAJtsc

The hope is that Disney (after recouping the money spent to buy LucasFilm and make the current trilogy) will branch out and make a new series set in the Old Republic, roughly 3,000 years before the Skywalker family.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

So can you not make great films and a ton of money?

Nobody saying this. Of course great films can make a ton of money. 'Jaws', 'The Godfather', 'Star Wars', 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' were all great films and all made a ton of money.

However, mediocre films do too and that's the problem. 'The Force Awakens' made an obscene amount of revenue, while being a pretty meh film, with some downright awful moments/characters.

'The Last Jedi' may raise the bar considerably this December, who knows. I may be on here signing its praises in high tones, like I was with 'Rogue One'. But, there is a palpable sense of unease among fans that Disney are just going through the motions creatively, because they are guaranteed a bucket of money anyway.

I agree with Pixel, in that 'Rogue One' may just be a blip and the main product will be safe, boring and mediocre - with depths of "just no" from the likes of 'Han Solo'. Which is unfortunate, because there is so much one can do with the galaxy that George Lucas created 40+ years ago.

david75 wrote: »

cos they wouldnt make any money if they were bad vapid films.

I know that you know that this isn't true. Bad films make money all the time.

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

I know that you know that this isn't true. Bad films make money all the time.

Transformers, Fast and Furious, etc. etc.

buried

Tony EH

Does anyone know what the point of those scrapey things are for, on the bottom those allied ships?

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Does anyone know what the point of those scrapey things are for, on the bottom those allied ships?

One theory has it that the sand is combustible. Or their just making cover for ground troops

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

Nobody saying this. Of course great films can make a ton of money. 'Jaws', 'The Godfather', 'Star Wars', 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' were all great films and all made a ton of money.

However, mediocre films do too and that's the problem. 'The Force Awakens' made an obscene amount of revenue, while being a pretty meh film, with some downright awful moments/characters.

'The Last Jedi' may raise the bar considerably this December, who knows. I may be on here signing its praises in high tones, like I was with 'Rogue One'. But, there is a palpable sense of unease among fans that Disney are just going through the motions creatively, because they are guaranteed a bucket of money anyway.

I agree with Pixel, in that 'Rogue One' may just be a blip and the main product will be safe, boring and mediocre - with depths of "just no" from the likes of 'Han Solo'. Which is unfortunate, because there is so much one can do with the galaxy that George Lucas created 40+ years ago.



I know that you know that this isn't true. Bad films make money all the time.

I'm on a lot of Star Wars forums. There is no palpable sense of unease about anything other than this one will be too much a break from established Star Wars tone. I don't know where you're seeing fans saying anything like that. Once again we're writing off a film basically cos a corporation boght it. And without having seen it. (Of the trailer). It would help to take your point a little more seriously if your at least watched it.were literally only two films into Star Wars. Both loved and for very different reasons and opposite reasons. Surely that's a sign they've got this exactly on track. I don't see where this mediocrity idea is coming from. Both films so far have been huge successes while being totally different.

david75

Looking at the shopping list of companies and corporations Lucas was considering selling LFL to, Im personally thankful he went with Disney. Sony Studios and Nintendo and Starz know sweet eff all about making films. Plus he didn't just sell Star Wars he sold lucasfilm. The entirety of it. Disney got it for a song.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

I'm on a lot of Star Wars forums. There is no palpable sense of unease about anything other than this one will be too much a break from established Star Wars tone. I don't know where you're seeing fans saying anything like that.

As an example, Jedi council forums was very much split on Abrams being announced as director of IX and there's always been a split on TFA over there. I'm not on the forum, but I read it and there's definitely an unease among some. There are some that are "wait and seers" and there's the happy clappers who'd cheer a Star Wars film made entirely with porgs.

But there are plenty of people who are unsure where Disney is going to take this thing.

david75 wrote: »

Once again we're writing off a film basically cos a corporation boght it.

Nobody is "writing off" anything.

david75 wrote: »

It would help to take your point a little more seriously if your at least watched it.

How? I've already seen a trailer for 'The Last Jedi', I've already seen 'The Force Awakens'. I've seen how Disney is handling Star Wars...and the present conclusion is, is that I'm not that enthused.

I'm not watching the new trailer, because I don't want anything spoiled for December and I find that too many trailers spoil far too much regarding films I intend to watch.

david75 wrote: »

were literally only two films into Star Wars. Both loved and for very different reasons and opposite reasons. Surely that's a sign they've got this exactly on track. I don't see where this mediocrity idea is coming from. Both films so far have been huge successes while being totally different.

And as I've continually said, we have one great on 'Rogue One' and one that is just OK, 'The Force Awakens'. We also have the complete no-no that is 'Han Solo', who's very idea, I despise, plus rumours of Boba Fett and Odi Wan films, which are sigh inducing and mildly interesting in that order. So, so far, everything but 'Rogue One' hasn't done much for me.

Also, it's the nature of Disney that informs people trepidation with their custodianship of the franchise. After all, we're talking about a company that sued creche's for putting images of Mickey Mouse on their walls.

So, no, I don't share your "on track" regarding Disney, but as I said, if 'The Last Jedi' turns out to be great, I'll hail it appropriately. If it's not, it'll get the stick. I was all rolly eyes about 'Rogue One', until I saw the film and it reminded me of how great a Star Wars film can be.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

One theory has it that the sand is combustible. Or their just making cover for ground troops

The first thing would make sense. The second one doesn't.

Anyway, we'll find out at Christmas.

david75

can someone help stop a debate...the imax here isnt an imax or it is? and is it any use either way?

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

As an example, Jedi council forums was very much split on Abrams being announced as director of IX and there's always been a split on TFA over there. I'm not on the forum, but I read it and there's definitely an unease among some. There are some that are "wait and seers" and there's the happy clappers who'd cheer a Star Wars film made entirely with porgs.

But there are plenty of people who are unsure where Disney is going to take this thing.



Nobody is "writing off" anything.



How? I've already seen a trailer for 'The Last Jedi', I've already seen 'The Force Awakens'. I've seen how Disney is handling Star Wars...and the present conclusion is, is that I'm not that enthused.

I'm not watching the new trailer, because I don't want anything spoiled for December and I find that too many trailers spoil far too much regarding films I intend to watch.



And as I've continually said, we have one great on 'Rogue One' and one that is just OK, 'The Force Awakens'. We also have the complete no-no that is 'Han Solo', who's very idea, I despise, plus rumours of Boba Fett and Odi Wan films, which are sigh inducing and mildly interesting in that order. So, so far, everything but 'Rogue One' hasn't done much for me.

Also, it's the nature of Disney that informs people trepidation with their custodianship of the franchise. After all, we're talking about a company that sued creche's for putting images of Mickey Mouse on their walls.

So, no, I don't share your "on track" regarding Disney, but as I said, if 'The Last Jedi' turns out to be great, I'll hail it appropriately. If it's not, it'll get the stick. I was all rolly eyes about 'Rogue One', until I saw the film and it reminded me of how great a Star Wars film can be.

Youve missed my point. As many SW fans hate and love Rogue one as as many hate and love TFA..theyve made everyone happy to various degrees so far. both camps if you will. Not liking a film doesnt mean an entire franchise is creatively spent just cos you personally didnt like it.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

can someone help stop a debate...the imax here isnt an imax or it is? and is it any use either way?

No David, It's fake IMAX.

We used to have one on Parnell Street, but it didn't make any money and was closed

This "IMAX" there now is not actual IMAX size, but still sold as IMAX.

david75

thanks..i was in it once and mad underwhelned and it had crap sound..two pals debating if its real or not..only thing i can think of is they might have an imax projector alright but not the screen

Hector Savage

Falthyron wrote: »

Knights of the Old Republic is a series (computer game) that started in 2003 with a sequel two years later, and a spin-off Massive Multiplayer Online Game that came out in 2011. It is widely regarded as one of the better off-canon Star Wars eras created with wonderful characters like HK-47 (an assassin droid) and Bastila Shan (a Jedi Master - who I secretly think Rey is being based off).

Here are the CGI trailers made by BioWare for the MMO (The Old Republic). As you will probably notice, they are superior in almost every way to the prequels :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R51LMIAJtsc

The hope is that Disney (after recouping the money spent to buy LucasFilm and make the current trilogy) will branch out and make a new series set in the Old Republic, roughly 3,000 years before the Skywalker family.

Ah right ! , so this will be in Darth Banes time ?

could have lots of potential.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

thanks..i was in it once and mad underwhelned and it had crap sound..two pals debating if its real or not..only thing i can think of is they might have an imax projector alright but not the screen

I'm not sure of the exact sizes, but the real IMAX screen used to take up most of the Cineworld multiplex, IIRC. I was only there once, for 'Fantasia' years ago.

TBH, I find the size of IMAX a bit stupid and gimmicky. A good size 2:35.1 screen is perfectly fine for me.

What matters is what's on the screen.

david75

what if this generally regarded as better than Empire? are we ready for that?

there's your fandom civil war right there

Tony EH

But that war has already happened. There were folk claiming that 'Revenge of the Sith' was the greatest Star Wars film OAT.

No doubt, you'll have some claiming this for 'The Last Jedi', even if it's total shite.

But, you never know, it could be fantastic. The problem, though, is that it already belongs to a poorer trilogy, when compared to the OT, cos 'The Force Awakens' wasn't that good and compared to the original's characters, the new trilogy stars are very much in their shadow.

I know we've yet to see IX...but Abrams = already.