Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Sad Professor

I'll say more after I've had time to think about it, but for now:

I loved it. A middle act very much in the tradition of Empire and with many of the same problems, but it does everything I hoped it would do and more. Like Empire, I think it will be better appreciated in time. Already I would say it might be the visually strongest film in the franchise. I'm just glad Johnson was brave enough to make it, especially knowing that Abrams will almost certainly steer things back in a safer direction.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

Well tonally Empire is utterly different than a new hope.
This is similar to that.

The confused shock and awe WTF reaction to TLJ is echoing exactly the reaction Empire got upon its release.

So maybe there’s hope in a few years once we have the final episode we can recontextualise it and hopefully see it as wonderful.

I love in hope. Right now I’m reeling from it.

Hm. I think that Empire was quite consistent tonally within itself though? Quite moody and deliberately paced and almost relentlessly hopeless and crushing?

TLJ seems to switch it up from moment to moment. So the more heavy moments don't seem to hit as hard as they could/should?

robinph

Hunky Monster wrote: »

I hated this last night after seeing it and I hate it even more now as things are coming back to me.

Luke milking the sea cow and drinking the milk followed by an elaborate spear fishing scene is just Phantom Menace levels of SHYYYTE.

There is only so many shots of walking up and down the hill in different weather conditions that they can do on the tiny island to indicate the passage of time that it took before they started talking to each other. No harm in showing where he gets his lunch from, but why did they made the most abundant food source on the island too cute for even Chewie to snack on?

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

I think you missed the point there. She was sacrificing herself. The rest is just nit picking.

Sure but did the character "earn" that moment? Did we, as the audience, have enough invested in that character to feel like we earned the emotional pay off?

It's like "we're going to do something big but not with one of the big characters". In episode 8 of a 9 episode series, what's the point of that?

We've got maybe 4 to 5 hours of screen time left to share between episodes 8 and 9 so why kill off some existing characters (Admiral Ackbar) with no ceremony and then introduce a new character who we will ask to make a massive sacrifice in an hour.

It seems crazy wrong to me. Wasteful.

Is this an invalid criticism?

homerun_homer

david75 wrote: »

It’s nit ‘just’ bing infroudcued to the movies. It was always there. Palpating did exactly the same to Anakin in the prequels to put visions and bad dreams in his head.

Dream wise this wasn't shown to be Palpatine messing with Anakin in the movies. Maybe in books but that to a regular film goer was Anakin having nightmares.

Luke reaches out to Leia in Empire. And Vader contacts him too.
They absolutely needed to show new force abilities. It’s alwyas just been Jedi can move stuff. End.

It was time to show more.

Communicating from afar is one thing we've seen in the movies,
actually showing yourself as being present in the moment and ready to fight is another. Sure it's a step up and I'll get used to it, but this could potentially be used in very bad ways in future movies.

robinph

Saruhashi wrote: »

Is this an invalid criticism?

I think it would have been better to have given the existing character a better send off than just a random ship being blown up as well, but if they didn't kill off the new annoying one like that then we'd be stuck with them for the next film as well.

david75

homerun_homer wrote: »

Dream wise this wasn't shown to be Palpatine messing with Anakin in the movies. Maybe in books but that to a regular film goer was Anakin having nightmares.

Communicating from afar is one thing we've seen in the movies,
actually showing yourself as being present in the moment and ready to fight is another. Sure it's a step up and I'll get used to it, but this could potentially be used in very bad ways in future movies.

He says ‘I can see you. But cant see your surroundings’. She says ‘can you put a top on?’ So they’re only seeing each other. Nothing to suggest it’s not the same when Vader reaches out for Luke in Empire. It’s really no different it’s just two people telepathically communicating. Does it not make it more interesting to tweak it to have them be able to see each other?

And yes it was Palpatine putting the dreams/visions in his head.

robinph

homerun_homer wrote: »

Dream wise this wasn't shown to be Palpatine messing with Anakin in the movies. Maybe in books but that to a regular film goer was Anakin having nightmares.

Communicating from afar is one thing we've seen in the movies,
actually showing yourself as being present in the moment and ready to fight is another. Sure it's a step up and I'll get used to it, but this could potentially be used in very bad ways in future movies.

Could be explained away as being the location that they were carrying out these visions from which were stronger for Rey than Kylo. Then with Luke doing his Matrix fight scene was him just taking it up another level because he did it from the original Jedi temple location.

Doesn't mean they are now able to do it again or elsewhere.

DrWu

Cool. I totally get those points and I'm pretty sure I know the specific scenes your talking about that were cringe inducing.

A couple of times I did get that cringey feeling but it was mostly down to the way the scenes were shot rather than what was actually going on in them. But for me anyway these moments were few and far between and I can absolutely forgive them because I enjoyed the movie so much.

I think one of the problems with the Disney takeover is that there is no singular vision - at least there doesn't seem to be. There was continuity in the original trilogy that I do think is lacking here (as far as the prequels go, they don't exist to me). It's like that game where one person draws some lines on a page and the next person comes along and adds to the lines and so on.

But as individual films I really enjoyed both sequels. I'm now totally on board with the main characters (maybe not Finn) and am genuinely intrigued about where 9 will go.

Saruhashi wrote: »

I don't know what I expected, tbh.

I think a lot of the moments in the movie felt out of place. Like not part of the Star Wars universe.

It seemed like a spoof of a Star Wars movie. Like a Star Wars movie that was maybe a little too self aware? A lot of the dialogue felt like it was winking at the audience TOO obviously and there were 2 or 3 moments that seemed like ridiculous exposition dumps.

A lot of movies would be panned for these things. Too much exposition. Too much on the nose political commentary. Tonal shifts where the film seems to lurch from one tone to the next, sometimes even in the same scene. Side plots that take us away from the more interesting main plot and don't really do much for the film. I don't "get" how this is a 85/100 movie. It seemed more like a 5 or 6 to me. So many things that just didn't work.

I cringed a lot and I actually felt it was embarrassing at points. I don't even think I'd need to post spoilers as if you've seen the movie you'd know which parts were real "WTF?" moments even if you loved or hated them. I kind of hated them.

The only think I knew about it going in was that I liked TFA, ANH and ESB in that order (with ESB being the best), I am ok with RotJ and I am not a fan of the prequel story. I think the back to back stories of A New Hope and Empire is the best segment of the 8 episodes so far.

I also knew this one had an 85 rating on Metacritic and, as I am sure you can tell, I am really stuck on that.

Please don't take this as confrontational or looking for an argument but can you elucidate exactly how you loved the movie without giving spoilers?

Was it just viscerally satisfying? Did it seem to have some deep connection to Star Wars as a whole? Did it move the story forward much and add to the Star Wars mythos or is it more of a "standalone" episode?

robinph

david75 wrote: »

So they’re only seeing each other.

I thought Rey could see his location, but not the other way round. She also sent him some rain water/ sea spray through the vision.

Saruhashi

robinph wrote: »

I think it would have been better to have given the existing character a better send off than just a random ship being blown up as well, but if they didn't kill off the new annoying one like that then we'd be stuck with them for the next film as well.

Another point I can't stop myself from focusing on is that we are at Episode 8 in a 9 Episode story so, heading into Episode 8, we know we only have 4 to 5 hours left in this Skywalker Saga.

I feel like it's time for the story to start bringing everything to a conclusion but instead we are introducing new characters and new story elements. These then actually either deprive existing characters of proper endings with proper weight or create more story threads that there simply won't be time to resolve.

When the credits roll on Episode 9 will we be satisfied with the conclusions that Han, Leia and Luke were led to?

Or will we look back and agree that Return of the Jedi was the "real" ending when we left them happy and successful and hopeful?

Chronologically, from a story perspective, the prequels were a poor set-up to the original trilogy. Are the sequels really a worthy continuation of the tale?

Prequels: The republic and the jedi fall together. The Sith-led empire rises.
Originals: The empire is fought and destroyed, the Sith are defeated, the heroes live happily ever after.
Sequels: Actually the empire is kind of maybe back and the rebels who won and still kind of maybe rebels and the Sith are back but not really and the heroes are just old but it's OK because we have younger, less interesting, heroes to carry on the story.

We've had 2 out of the 3 sequels now but what have they really added to the Star Wars mythos?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

gct wrote: »

Luke had been in solitude for God knows how many years and I think the director was trying to show
that Luke had gone a little bit La-La like Yoda in Empire strikes back.

There's plenty of ways to show that without showing a pair of alien tits, a mustache covered in green milk and a big showy off swing moment.

Awful.

ZV Yoda

Wow - you all take your Star Wars very seriously in here! (says he with the Yoda boardsie name & avatar )

I enjoyed it. It's no ANH or ESB, but it's certainly better than the prequels. It had elements of other movies (notably

ESB

), but isn't a remake.

Like others, I agree it was 20 mins too long. It dragged in the middle. I thought the whole

casino / codebreaker

storyline was unneccesary. Also, the

Leia floating

scene was a cringefest. I watched it in disbelief (not in a good way). If those 2 parts were edited out, I reckon it would be a better film.

Re the comedy stuff - I laughed out loud a few times. If you go back to the original trilogy, there was a fair bit of comedy. Then again, they were made in more innocent times, so that syle of comedy probably does feel a bit "forced" (pun inteded) in 2017.

I was delighted to see

Yoda back

on the big screen. Who cares if it's a cynical marketing ploy? Disney will milk Star Wars for all it's worth. (they couldn't have made that any more obvious than in the scene where

Luke actually milks a 4 breasted creature on Skellig Michael!)

7/10 for me. Will see it again with the younglings over Christmas.

Saruhashi

DrWu wrote: »

I think one of the problems with the Disney takeover is that there is no singular vision - at least there doesn't seem to be. There was continuity in the original trilogy that I do think is lacking here (as far as the prequels go, they don't exist to me). It's like that game where one person draws some lines on a page and the next person comes along and adds to the lines and so on.

This is one of my major gripes. Lots of elements in Episode 8 felt like the writers taking stuff that was set up in Episode 7 and saying "nope" and just wholesale scrapping those ideas BUT still doing enough to leave them open to return in Episode 9, to some extent.

Is there a plan to have a final episode 10 down the line or something like that?

If not, and 9 is the end of this particular story thread/arc, then it makes little sense to allow the story to lurch all over the place in the penultimate episode.

I'm wanting to be cautious here because honestly I don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of the movies and I certainly don't want to argue that people are "wrong" to like the new ones.

I just feel like I sat through 2.5 hours of wasted potential and I am convinced now that Episode 9 will probably spend it's first 30 minutes or so saying "forget the previous 2 episodes we're doing THIS now".

We'll see, I suppose. I am keen to see how TLJ stands up once people have seen the gags a couple of times and start to look at the story that was told here and how characters were developed and brought towards their conclusions.

Tony EH

Saruhashi wrote: »

I just feel like I sat through 2.5 hours or wasted potential and I am convinced now that Episode 9 will probably spend it's first 30 minutes or so saying "forget the previous 2 episodes we're doing THIS now".

Considering Jar Jar Abrams has got the gig, that could well be the case.

murpho999

Saruhashi wrote: »

Another point I can't stop myself from focusing on is that we are at Episode 8 in a 9 Episode story so, heading into Episode 8, we know we only have 4 to 5 hours left in this Skywalker Saga.

I feel like it's time for the story to start bringing everything to a conclusion but instead we are introducing new characters and new story elements. These then actually either deprive existing characters of proper endings with proper weight or create more story threads that there simply won't be time to resolve.

When the credits roll on Episode 9 will we be satisfied with the conclusions that Han, Leia and Luke were led to?

Or will we look back and agree that Return of the Jedi was the "real" ending when we left them happy and successful and hopeful?

Chronologically, from a story perspective, the prequels were a poor set-up to the original trilogy. Are the sequels really a worthy continuation of the tale?

Prequels: The republic and the jedi fall together. The Sith-led empire rises.
Originals: The empire is fought and destroyed, the Sith are defeated, the heroes live happily ever after.
Sequels: Actually the empire is kind of maybe back and the rebels who won and still kind of maybe rebels and the Sith are back but not really and the heroes are just old but it's OK because we have younger, less interesting, heroes to carry on the story.

We've had 2 out of the 3 sequels now but what have they really added to the Star Wars mythos?

Rian Johnson has brought in these new characters and story lines.

The same Rian Johnson has a deal in place to create a new trilogy.

So I reckon the Skywalker saga could end in Episode IX but the new trilogy could involve the new characters.

robinph

Saruhashi wrote: »

"forget the previous 2 episodes we're doing THIS now".

Because ANH and ESB, RoTJ were all so clearly planned out in advance an had no disjointed major plot points "from a certain point of view".

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

This is one of my major gripes. Lots of elements in Episode 8 felt like the writers taking stuff that was set up in Episode 7 and saying "nope" and just wholesale scrapping those ideas BUT still doing enough to leave them open to return in Episode 9, to some extent.

Is there a plan to have a final episode 10 down the line or something like that?

If not, and 9 is the end of this particular story thread/arc, then it makes little sense to allow the story to lurch all over the place in the penultimate episode.

I'm wanting to be cautious here because honestly I don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of the movies and I certainly don't want to argue that people are "wrong" to like the new ones.

I just feel like I sat through 2.5 hours or wasted potential and I am convinced now that Episode 9 will probably spend it's first 30 minutes or so saying "forget the previous 2 episodes we're doing THIS now".

We'll see, I suppose. I am keen to see how TLJ stands up once people have seen the gags a couple of times and start to look at the story that was told here and how characters were developed and brought towards their conclusions.

THere is absolutely a plan. TLJ is packed with stuff that nobody here’s even noticed.
If you read the legends of Luke Skywalker book, the scene with the giant spear makes total sense and gives you a little buzz.

Reys ‘vision echoes Yodas vision in the mortis arc in Rebels. Facing

herself

just as Luke does in Empire.

The crystal foxes are a nod to Rebels and a story in there.

Admiral Holdo has a huge role in the Leia book, they’re friends since childhood and TLJ is the conclusion of that.

And on and on. The interconnectivity across all the platforms is so mapped out and detailed and rich and done so well that you’re not missing out if you don’t know it and if you do there’s all these bonus layers when you’re watching TLJ.

JJ has said he sees 9 as the conclusion of the Skywalker saga. All of this is leading to that point, whether you get into all the other stuff or not it’s all there and deffo connected and mapped out.

DrWu

Saruhashi wrote: »

Please don't take this as confrontational or looking for an argument but can you elucidate exactly how you loved the movie without giving spoilers?

Was it just viscerally satisfying? Did it seem to have some deep connection to Star Wars as a whole? Did it move the story forward much and add to the Star Wars mythos or is it more of a "standalone" episode?

Sorry, I totally forgot to answer your question. I'll try and avoid spoilers!

What I liked about it: Thematically it took a more nuanced approach to themes like power and ambition, age and youth, right and wrong, etc, but still made them work within a classical narrative. Even the standard SW line that power corrupts was turned on it's head in the Leia, Dameron, Holdo storyline.

I loved that every character was challenged, not just physically but emotionally and especially morally. In fact, when you think back there were hardly any moral dilemmas in the original trilogy. The surprises weren't overcooked or thrown in for the hell of it. They all fitted into a classical arc, both thematically and in terms of narrative.

I thought that the pacing in the main story was spot on: there were losses, sacrifices etc and the ending had a powerful emotional pay off.

I do have some issues with the film but they are issues with details. Taken as a whole I found it incredibly refreshing and utterly riveting. My 10 yr old daughter came along and was completely entranced by it. It was great to see her gasping at the surprises and the emotional moments.

I need to see it again and let it sink in to better analyse it, but my gut feeling was that I was 10 again and watching the ESB in the Savoy.

Saruhashi

robinph wrote: »

Because ANH and ESB, RoTJ were all so clearly planned out in advance an had no disjointed major plot points "from a certain point of view".

I think there are obvious disjointed plot points between the three originals, yes. However it seems FAR more pronounced here.

I think I need to be clear that criticism of the new sequels is not the same as ignoring problems with the originals.

In this case the 3 trilogies may share similar problems but I think this particular problem is more jarring when moving from Episode 7 to Episode 8.

Maybe I am wrong about that. I feel like Episode 7 set up a number of plot elements and Episode 8 set about erasing some of them. I fear that Episode 9 is going to work in a similar way.

We have 2 to 3 hours of this saga remaining so we'll see how it pans out in 2019, I suppose.

I don't think Episode 8 accomplished very much but we can maybe judge that better after Episode 9?

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

THere is absolutely a plan. TLJ is packed with stuff that nobody here’s even noticed.
If you read the legends of Luke Skywalker book, the scene with the giant spear makes total sense and gives you a little buzz.

Reys ‘vision echoes Yodas vision in the mortis arc in Rebels. Facing

herself

just as Luke does in Empire.

The crystal foxes are a nod to Rebels and a story in there.

Admiral Holdo has a huge role in the Leia book, they’re friends since childhood and TLJ is the conclusion of that.

And on and on. The interconnectivity across all the platforms is so mapped out and detailed and rich and done so well that you’re not missing out if you don’t know it and if you do there’s all these bonus layers when you’re watching TLJ.

JJ has said he sees 9 as the conclusion of the Skywalker saga. All of this is leading to that point, whether you get into all the other stuff or not it’s all there and deffo connected and mapped out.

All of that is great, but that's no good to film watchers. We didn't need additional material in other mediums to understand the Old Trilogy. The film we see now should be enough to explain everything that needs explaining to a film audience. It suggests that Disney is trying to overwhelm its audience with reasons to engage with their other material and projects, which, ultimately, means they want more money from the franchise.

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

I think there are obvious disjointed plot points between the three originals, yes. However it seems FAR more pronounced here.

I think I need to be clear that criticism of the new sequels is not the same as ignoring problems with the originals.

In this case the 3 trilogies may share similar problems but I think this particular problem is more jarring when moving from Episode 7 to Episode 8.

Maybe I am wrong about that. I feel like Episode 7 set up a number of plot elements and Episode 8 set about erasing some of them. I fear that Episode 9 is going to work in a similar way.

We have 2 to 3 hours of this saga remaining so we'll see how it pans out in 2019, I suppose.

I don't think Episode 8 accomplished very much but we can maybe judge that better after Episode 9?

Empire was broadly loathed and dismissed and only came to be seen as a classic and the best one after ROTJ gave it its context.

Falthyron

david75 wrote: »

Empire was broadly loathed and dismissed and only came to be seen as a classic and the best one after ROTJ gave it its context.

The main concern with this is: there is no broad all-encompassing narrative or path with the Rey trilogy. There is no sense of 'we know where we are going'. Instead, we have directors stopping by to give their take, answer the questions they want to answer and then leave some loose ends for the next person to pick up to see where they take it.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

THere is absolutely a plan. TLJ is packed with stuff that nobody here’s even noticed.
If you read the legends of Luke Skywalker book, the scene with the giant spear makes total sense and gives you a little buzz.

Reys ‘vision echoes Yodas vision in the mortis arc in Rebels. Facing

herself

just as Luke does in Empire.

The crystal foxes are a nod to Rebels and a story in there.

Admiral Holdo has a huge role in the Leia book, they’re friends since childhood and TLJ is the conclusion of that.

And on and on. The interconnectivity across all the platforms is so mapped out and detailed and rich and done so well that you’re not missing out if you don’t know it and if you do there’s all these bonus layers when you’re watching TLJ.

JJ has said he sees 9 as the conclusion of the Skywalker saga. All of this is leading to that point, whether you get into all the other stuff or not it’s all there and deffo connected and mapped out.

It feels like a movie franchise version of video game DLC to be honest.

I have to buy all the extras to get more out of the base movie experience.

Gotta buy and read two books and then make my way through 68 episodes of Star Wars Rebels. THEN the movies won't feel quite so disjointed.

It's not surprising but it's a bit disappointing.

buried

It's actually pretty funny all this consume the merchandise, buy the miniseries cartoons, buy the books, buy the audiobooks, buy buy buy the merchandise in order to understand what's going on. It's a sneaky corporate mindset akin to the modus operandi of villians, if there were actual Jedi knights witnessing all this they'd be disgusted, Yoda be spinning in his grave at the greed and the un-magical corporate franchise mindset! And make no mistake, the original magic of Star Wars is totally gone.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

Empire was broadly loathed and dismissed and only came to be seen as a classic and the best one after ROTJ gave it its context.

That's fine but I don't think it has any bearing on the pros and cons of episode 8 and the new trilogy in general.

Too many Star Wars discussions take this turn. Criticism of the newest episode is met with the argument that "the old ones weren't perfect either and suffered from X, Y and Z".

Of course, the opposite holds true and maybe comparing ANH and ESB to the new movies is unfair as they cannot be matched.

Then again, I have younger relatives who absolutely adore Episode 1 and think Jar Jar is brilliant. I don't think it's possible to argue with that.

As a grown up going into a Star Wars movie expecting the next Empire is probably some ridiculous expectation.

So maybe it is something going on with me like I've outgrown Star Wars.
Or maybe Star Wars is legitimately leaving it's old fan base behind.
I don't know. *Shrugs*

Going with my gut feeling on this new one, my verdict on Episode 8 is that it's a poor Star Wars movie that borders sometimes on feeling like an actual Star Wars parody.

I wouldn't begrudge the movie it's success just maybe I'm a bit jealous, and sad, that stuff like this isn't really for me anymore.

murpho999

I really can't believe all the negative posters in here and don't believe it's as bad as people are saying considering how well it's being reviewed.

I think some people should not go to midnight showings as it makes them kranky.

Drumpot

Saruhashi wrote: »

It feels like a movie franchise version of video game DLC to be honest.

I have to buy all the extras to get more out of the base movie experience.

Gotta buy and read two books and then make my way through 68 episodes of Star Wars Rebels. THEN the movies won't feel quite so disjointed.

It's not surprising but it's a bit disappointing.

I don't feel the need to know anymore about any of the characters to be honest. While reading the books or other stuff may enhance my enjoyment of the movie (don't have a problem with that), I don't think its necessary to enjoy the movie on its merits.

I thought the

lightspeed bomb

was a cool concept that doesn't need to be overthought. Somebody decided to sacrifice themselves and it was a great way to go. I don't have to care for every character in the universe to just enjoy that moment.

The strength of the movie is Rey/Kylo stories. I just wanted to see more and more of them and if you consider that the movie is trying to make us care for new characters and perhaps wind down the old ones, I think it succeeded on that front. I am actually excited to see where that one goes.

I don't mind nods to previous movies or if older characters are brought back into it. I thought that

Lando was going to be the thief they needed to break into Snokes ship

and was disappointed it wasn't to be honest. I am not sure what that new character brought other then something different which feels like a missed opportunity.

In fact that character was all about showing the blurred lines between goody and
baddy (they all buy weapons etc).

But I don't really care much for that kind of narrative that was much better dealt with in Rogue one IMO.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Empire was broadly loathed and dismissed and only came to be seen as a classic and the best one after ROTJ gave it its context.

That's not really true.

murpho999

david75 wrote: »

Empire was broadly loathed and dismissed and only came to be seen as a classic and the best one after ROTJ gave it its context.

I saw Empire as a kid in the cinema and it was hugely popular and had mixed reviews.