Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

ricero

Thought it was very good. Dont get the hate for the boyega side story. Thought it was important in telling the larger story of the star wars universe

py2006

Also did anyone actually notice the apparent cameo by William and Harry!

Falthyron

py2006 wrote: »

Also did anyone actually notice the apparent cameo by William and Harry!

I'm pretty sure they were the two Stormtroopers with the handcuffs that greeted Rey when she arrived on Snoke's Star Destroyer.

Justin Theroux was the gambling man wearing the red flowered lapel. Supposedly, Tom Hardy and Gary Barlow also make cameos (presumably as Stormtroopers), but does anyone know where?

falinn merking

Going to see this tonight.

I loved RO but was meh about TFA.

Which one is this more like?

david75

Verpiss dich wrote: »

Going to see this tonight.

I loved RO but was meh about TFA.

Which one is this more like?

it's not like either of them at all..but R1 if i had toi pick..

Tylerdurex

what caused luke to die , I didn't get it ?

irishthump

david75 wrote: »

it's not like either of them at all..but R1 if i had toi pick..

That made me laugh so much....

This movie NOTHING like Rogue One in content or quality!

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murpho999 wrote: »

I really can't believe all the negative posters in here and don't believe it's as bad as people are saying considering how well it's being reviewed.

I think some people should not go to midnight showings as it makes them kranky.

What you get on day one is the Uber nerds attuned to problems with a Star Wars universe most of us don’t know about.

The rest of us like the story, have seen the movies, and will get to watch this over Christmas. All we want is a decent movie. So we won’t know until the next week or two what’s the general cinema goers concensus.

david75

Tylerdurex wrote: »

what caused luke to die , I didn't get it ?

The sheer effort of what he had just done..projecting himself across the galaxy to face his nephew, but he chose to die..jedi can choose to do that rather than wither and fade..but also hes just broken and tells you as much at several points in the film...'i came here to die'...hes alive now in the force forever sowe'll probably see him again in 9

david75

irishthump wrote: »

That made me laugh so much....

This movie NOTHING like Rogue One in content or quality!

way to read a fraction of my post i said its nothinbg like either..

but in its battles and big set pieces it is more like R! than TFA is..

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david75 wrote: »

its well documnted ESB wasnt anything like as well received as ANH though..its a feature of every SW book written on it..shall i go find you some reviews?

94% on RT which includes the original reviews. Thumbs down from the daily telegraph though.

david75

server down wrote: »

94% on RT which includes the original reviews. Thumbs down from the daily telegraph though.

and 90% of those reviews are internet era reviews most likely 97 onwards after the re-release

nobody here said its a bad movie, the point was it only came to be viewed as the best after ROTJ, cos it was given context by it and it was better than ROTJ so people became more able to say they liked it most of the three.

Mitch Connor

Found it aimed to be too much of a comedy. Some of the jokes were good, but there were too many imo.

barrymanilow

Absolute Rubbish , Worst star wars film yet ,even worse than that jar jar rubbish.

Mark hamill can't act
a lot of the scenes wouldn't have looked out of place in space balls
Why were there furbies on Skellig Michil ?
Why was Toad of Toad Hall wearing a white sheet on Skellig Michil?
Dialogue terrible even by star wars standards
The main jedi girl can't act either and is a deadpan personality free character
What was with the awful american sitcom comedy stuff that made immersion in the film impossible ?

Big load of Rubbish

irishthump

I saw TLJ last night/this morning and I have to say I was hugely disappointed.

There are some genuinely excellent moments in this movie:

The opening battle. The early scenes with Luke and Rey. (Mark Hamill really nailed the grizzled, disillusioned old Jedi part!) The telepathic interaction between Rey and Kylo .

But these high points were dragged down into the dirt by terrible pacing, cringeworthy humour and too many WTF moments to mention.

Rian Johnson has made an unholy balls of this crucial 2nd act. TFA was a good, solid movie even if it did feel like a rehash of ANH.

Abrams will really have to pull something out of the bag to save this mess. Right now, I'd take the prequels over this garbage any day.

Falthyron

My initial thoughts from 5am last night (this morning?!) can be found here: link

Having since slept and spent many hours thinking about the film, I am starting to feel as if it wasn't as good as I had originally thought. I still feel The Last Jedi is better than The Force Awakens (which I enjoyed), but that is mostly down to there being some great moments to paint over the cracks.

My main concerns stem from the broader implications of having initiated a trilogy without an over-arching destination in mind. This problem would appear to have tacitly been addressed by Disney in the form of content and projects from other media (TV, books, comics, anthology films), as highlighted by David75. The film audience should not have to engage with additional material to better understand the film they wanted to see. This isn't a module in university where you read the main texts to achieve a passing grade, but in order to earn a First Class grade you need to engage with the supplementary material.

Leia:

Leia's 'death' followed by her using the Force to return to the ship was atrocious. In terms of comparison, this scene is up there with 'I don't like sand'. Forgetting the logic of what happens for a moment, the way it was filmed was awful. Carrie's death last year left Rian in a tough position, but he had already filmed a death scene for Leia which gave him room to edit the film in such a way that she would receive a poignant and definitive conclusion. How are they going to make her disappear now? Some off-screen incident?

Her role was quite minimal as well. One or two lines of dialogue here and there. I don't think you can say she even had a conversation with anyone. People spoke to her and she gave back one-liners. It was clear that she was making way for Poe Dameron to take over - though, I would have preferred Laura Dern to remain on - but, they needed to give her something to make her end memorable. Leia's death (in the bridge of the capital ship) and Kylo's involvement in that scene would have made for a more compelling reason to have the audience start to believe he could be turned back to the lightside. Ultimately, Rian has left J.J. with a mess to deal with. If Disney remain true to their commitment that they won't use CGI for Leia in Episode IX then I can only see a flat, pointless, off-screen exit for Princess Leia Organa in the final chapter. They should have killed her off in TLJ to give a significant end to Star Wars' favourite princess.

Luke:

Luke is probably the most divisive element in this entire film. Everyone - that is everyone who is a avid Star Wars fan - has always wondered what Luke would be like at Obi-Wan's age. Would he be wise? Would he don the persona of a bumbling fool, but really, he would be incredibly powerful? Instead, we got something else. There are elements of the old Luke in Rian's vision. He is quick to react, easy to dismiss, and a little petulant at times (see Luke when he goes to Yoda's house before the big reveal as to who Yoda actually is). But, Luke was always full of hope and would do anything for his friends and the causes he believed in (see Luke telling Han he was turning his back on them and, of course, his belief in Anakin Skywalker). Therefore, his initial treatment of Rey is acceptable. The reasons behind his demise, however, is a little hard to swallow. Luke would actively try to end Ben Solo's life rather than save it? A boy who may have had feelings towards the darkside, but was still under his tutelage? I know he changes his mind before swinging the lightsaber, but its what led him to that point that has to be questioned and it doesn't really fit with the Luke we know and what he went through to save his father. Vader had murdered and killed thousands and yet Luke could still save him. Vader had fought him and took his hand, and yet Luke persisted in bringing him back to the lightside. What had Ben done by this stage? Nothing. Or at least nothing from what the film showed us, except have some bad dreams - possibly.

Luke having embraced both sides of the Force would have made for a better characterisation. Something that is often forgotten is that Luke used the darkside of the force before almost falling to it during his final fight with Darth Vader. In ROTJ he force chokes the guards at Jabba's palace. Furthermore, Luke knows nothing of the Jedi code, its principles, their rules, or practices. His only experience of the Jedi was Obi-Wan (short-lived) and Yoda (also short-lived). He was given a new canvas to work with as soon as Vader and Sidious were dead. Okay, so he found the first Jedi temple and he managed to find some books (which he admits to never reading!), but he also had first hand experience of how the Jedi failed (which he mentions). Much of this should have given him a more critical mindset about - as Sidious put it - the dogmatic view of the Jedi. A 'grey' Jedi would have made for a far more interesting exploration of not only the lightside and the darkside, but also the perspectives of good and evil, which the film was already trying to do with the arms dealers selling to both the Republic and the First Order.

Again, touching on the lack of a three-part completed narrative, why is there a map to find Luke? He quite clearly states that he wants to be left alone to die on the island. Why would he create a map to his location when he has no interest in speaking with anyone. Moreover, he has also disconnected himself from the Force. Why create such an elaborate treasure trail when he didn't want to be found?

Having said all of that, I did enjoy Mark Hamill's performance. He isn't really given that much to do, but he does well with what has been asked of him, particularly when you consider his disagreement with Luke's path. I think his character will be judged by how fans remember him in the Old Trilogy and what you would expect of him in his twilight years.

Kylo Ren:

Excellent character and very well portrayed by Adam Driver. He is the carrying element in this film and his eyes alone speak volumes when you see him on screen. A part of me wonders if his desire to bring Rey before Snoke was part of his own plan to usurp power. His primary driving force (:P) is his unrelenting will to become as powerful as Vader, perhaps even go beyond him and he certainly achieves this in The Last Jedi. He isn't as smart as Luke, Obi-Wan or Yoda and certainly embodies the angst and petulance of his grandfather as shown in Revenge of the Sith, but he managed to dupe his master - something even Vader could not do. Whereas Vader needed Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor, Kylo did it all by himself. I fully expect to see a hugely confident Kylo in the next film, almost to the point of beyond arrogance (which may lead to his downfall in the end) purely on the basis that he now knows he did more than his grandfather ever did.

Snoke:

Wow. Well, I did not see that coming. Mostly because I was eager to learn more about who Snoke was, where he came from, and his relation to the Sith/Jedi prior to meeting Ben Solo, etc. He was very intimidating, a real nightmare in both appearance and mannerism, so its a little disappointing that this could be the end of him, in terms of his role in the entire story. I reckon the dodgy CGI might have contributed to the reasons for his demise. It was fine, for the most part, but his movement looked a little off. This feels like a wasted character now, but when you consider Kylo's ambitions, it makes sense to propel him into the position of the final enemy.

Rey:

Rey's parentage is finally answered. In true Disney-esque form, she is a nobody as she herself stated, backed up by Kylo saying her parents sold her off to traders for drinking money. In effect, this is the beginning of the end for the Skywalker family. Kylo will (in all likelihood) die in Episode IX and he is now the last of the Skywalkers. In many respects, the Skywalkers have been a pretty bad bunch, overall. Begins with darkness, ends in darkness, with Luke being the exception. If the Star Wars saga ended with Return of the Jedi, we could say the Skywalkers were redeemed, but now there will be a very different view come Episode IX. Overall, Daisy Ridley puts in a more solid performance and is definitely more confident and relaxed in her delivery. In fact, my favourite moment of hers was in the Falcon fighting on Crait - it felt very Star Wars and she really kicked ass. Her moments with Luke, Kylo and Snoke are also excellent. A clear improvement on her performance in TFA, which, to be fair, was difficult given her lack of experience and the pressure of the Star Wars franchise. It is interesting to note that Rey managed to take the old Jedi texts from Ahch-To before leaving (you can see them in the drawer on the Falcon at the end). Rey will have to face Kylo at the end of Episode IX, but she will have the help of Luke and, possibly, Yoda. It is set up to become a rehash of Return of the Jedi and with J.J. involved (his work on TFA being a close copy of A New Hope), it could very well end up that way.

If you have read this far you might think I regard the film as quite poor, but I don't. It is definitely a solid Star Wars film, but with the misgivings of a typical franchise's mistakes and errors. Some storylines are unnecessary, or there are quite simply too many for the audience to become involved in at a deep level, but these problems can be found in the Old Trilogy as well. It is quite the visual spectacle and really ought to be viewed on a large screen sporting a powerful sound system. Its loud, bombastic, spectacular looking, full of action, and practically breathless in delivery. The smaller, more touching moments, make the film quite memorable, but there aren't enough of them.

Luke telling Kylo that his father and he will always be with him, no matter what he does; Kylo and Rey's want for a family and to be loved; Yoda telling Luke about the importance of failure; Luke seeing the two suns of Tatooine before he dies and its relevance to Yoda's comments about him always looking to the horizon; the hologram message from Leia reminding Luke of Obi-Wan, all help to create a feeling that there is something more meaningful to the films.

Having said that, the problems can't be ignored. I have previously mentioned the main issue of lacking a clear over-arching storyline to comprise three films. Instead, we are being treated to episodes with guest directors stepping in to pick and choose what they like.

Where are the Knights of Ren? What was Rey's vision in The Force Awakens where we see her confront Kylo in the rain, flanked, presumably, by his guard? If that is a scene from the future, in Episode IX, how will they explain Kylo wearing his mask again?

Yoda, initially, looked like a terrible CGI job, but it soon settled down and he was acting more like how he moved and spoke in The Empire Strikes Back.

How did Rey get off Snoke's Star Destroyer?

How did Snoke not sense the lightsaber moving beside him while he was telling Kylo to kill Rey?

Poe being used as a constant plot reminder to the audience was very noticeable and a little annoying.

Canto Bight was unnecessary and the love story between Finn and Rose felt forced, as if someone decided there needed to be a love story in the film so we need to put it in somewhere.

Yoda and the lightning strike? I clearly remember Yoda and Obi-Wan saying that they can not interfere in Luke's fight against the Emperor, but Yoda can make lightning strike?

The humour was... okay. Scenes involving the porgs were very minimal and they definitely provided most of the laughs. The opening dialogue

between Hux and Poe was not very Star Wars

, but I still smiled. Humour is hard to get right, especially when your film is supposed to be targeting children and adults alike.

Much of this, in my opinion, stems from Disney's influence. There was no need to show

the kids at the end, with one in particular being force sensitive and looking out towards the galaxy

. This was done for two reasons: primarily to have kids believing in miracles, and for Disney to sow the seeds for Rian's new trilogy or what will come after Episode IX. We didn't need to know that there

are other force sensitive people in the galaxy

. In addition to this, there is also something which will draw a little more controversy but I felt it was a little jarring. Diversity. The film goes above and beyond to highlight diversity and it really does take me out of the illusion. Time and again (specifically the pilots and soldiers) are shown to come from so many different backgrounds and races - which, of course, is used to contrast with the First Order who are predominantly white and all human. There is a Late Late Show vibe about it and the inclusion of Benicio del Toro's character ticked one more box because of

his stammer

. By the end of the film I was actively waiting on the

gay character to appear with his/her partner

. Disney are obviously being cautious in this particular regard as they have parents to think of in the U.S.

Yes, the galaxy is hugely diverse and it is one of the defining aspects of The Rebellion/Resistance, but it felt so contrived in this film. To me, it felt like every step away from conventionality by Rian was met with the introduction of a Disney trope. Rian wants to tackle capitalism and war profiteering, but he has to

have kids pretending to be Jedi at the end

in exchange. Rian wants to tackle the subtleties of good and evil, but he has to

make sure that anybody can become somebody.

Therein lies the rub for me. I can't help but feel that the new Star Wars films are more interested in telling stories that are applicable to this world rather than show us other worlds. Yes, family is at the heart of Star Wars and, of course, it is a strong societal value in our world, but there are too many other messages emanating from these new films and it takes away the illusion. Even when it tries to focus on one message like the sometimes subtle difference between good and evil, it fails to get its hands muddy. There are too many interests at stake and the biggest one is Disney's.

Overall, I do think it is a solid Star Wars film. I think I would give it an 8 out of 10. There are flaws, there are problems, it isn't as 'safe' as The Force Awakens, but there are great spectacles, wonderful music, excellent scenes, and some very touching and tender moments that remind us why we keep going back to a galaxy far, far, away, even though, in some respects, we are all becoming a little more disillusioned with it all, just like Luke.

Tylerdurex

david75 wrote: »

Tylerdurex wrote: »

what caused luke to die , I didn't get it ?

The sheer effort of what he had just done..projecting himself across the galaxy to face his nephew, but he chose to die..jedi can choose to do that rather than wither and fade..but also hes just broken and tells you as much at several points in the film...'i came here to die'...hes alive now in the force forever sowe'll probably see him again in 9

david75 wrote: »

Tylerdurex wrote: »

what caused luke to die , I didn't get it ?

The sheer effort of what he had just done..projecting himself across the galaxy to face his nephew, but he chose to die..jedi can choose to

For me the way Luke was done was this movies biggest disappointment. I like many have for years imagined how powerful could have become and really wanted to see him kick Ass

david75

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Found it aimed to be too much of a comedy. Some of the jokes were good, but there were too many imo.

yeah..the natural comedy worked, like the porgs..the 'gags' were too forced and will date badly....

Yoda saying 'a page tuner it is not'....eyerolling

but theres a lot of good humour in it too

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david75 wrote: »

and 90% of those reviews are internet era reviews most likely 97 onwards after the re-release

nobody here said its a bad movie, the point was it only came to be viewed as the best after ROTJ, cos it was given context by it and it was better than ROTJ so people became more able to say they liked it most of the three.

It includes the original reviews as I said. The top reviewers at the time - their reviews then. Don’t be confused by the dates - it shows the dates the archives are uploaded. But they are original reviews.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/empire_strikes_back/

There are very few bad reviews except from those people who don’t like star fantasies in general. Like the telegraph guy.

NIMAN

irishthump wrote: »

I saw TLJ last night/this morning and I have to say I was hugely disappointed.

There are some genuinely excellent moments in this movie:

The opening battle. The early scenes with Luke and Rey. (Mark Hamill really nailed the grizzled, disillusioned old Jedi part!) The telepathic interaction between Rey and Kylo .

But these high points were dragged down into the dirt by terrible pacing, cringeworthy humour and too many WTF moments to mention.

Rian Johnson has made an unholy balls of this crucial 2nd act. TFA was a good, solid movie even if it did feel like a rehash of ANH.

Abrams will really have to pull something out of the bag to save this mess. Right now, I'd take the prequels over this garbage any day.

Jez, thats a sad reflection on the new film if the prequels are better. Cos they were more or less cack.

Shakey_jake

irishthump

NIMAN wrote: »

Jez, thats a sad reflection on the new film if the prequels are better. Cos they were more or less cack.

Believe me I'm as surprised as you to hear me say that!

What baffles me is the OVERWHELMING amount of positive reviews.

BlitzKrieg

Falthyron wrote: »

My initial thoughts from 5am last night (this morning?!) can be found here: link

How did Rey get off Snoke's Star Destroyer?

Hux gives a line when Kylo Ren wakes up that the Snoke's private shuttle is missing, a bigger question would be how BB8 escaped and took over the AT-ST, last we saw of him they'd all been captured in the transmitter room. Unless they just didnt notice him in the box but they clearly had the first order droid look right at him

david75

probably cos an overwhelming amount of people like it?

its a very challenging film and some people dont like being challenged on one hand, yet b!tch and moan when they think something too safe like TFA in their view..

no pleasing some people.

branie2

Yeah, some people are never satisfied

NIMAN

irishthump wrote: »

What baffles me is the OVERWHELMING amount of positive reviews.

I think SW is one of those franchises where people are afraid to say they don't like it. Or think its poor.

Some are such hardcore fans they would try to claim the Phantom Menace is great.

I am a SW fan from the beginning when I saw the original film about 5 or 6 times over a fortnight when I was 9. My life revolved around SW for many years after.

But even I can criticise the films when they deserve it. I'm going into TLJ on Monday with mixed emotions. Hoping I love it but afraid I'll not. I suppose thats the difference of seeing a film as a teen and as a near 50yr old man.

JohnFalstaff

david75 wrote: »

probably cos an overwhelming amount of people like it?

its a very challenging film and some people dont like being challenged on one hand, yet b!tch and moan when they think something too safe like TFA in their view..

no pleasing some people.

I rewatched 'Hard to Be a God' recently. That was a challenging, but rewarding, film.
Star Wars is hardly challenging?

uck51js9zml2yt

david75 wrote: »

havent seen one complaint about the porgs theyre used well and just enough, not too much at all

chewie eating the roast porg and his family standing there crying was brilliant ...the shot with four or five of them in the falcons cockpit and the little one is tearing the fabric on the chair and the other ones got a metal tool round its hgead was mad funny poor chewie overrun with them..

Inclined to agree. The porgs were well done. The wildlife was a nod to the wildlife on the skelligs.
While it has its good moments I would have been better staying at home last night and getting an early night

david75

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

I rewatched 'Hard to Be a God' recently. That was a challenging, but rewarding, film.
Star Wars is hardly challenging?

have you read this thread?

Drumpot

Just saw it for second time. Much better on second viewing.. 8-9 out of 10