Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

nix

thegreengoblin wrote: »

One thing which has me scratching my head in here is when I see someone remark that they actually preferred the prequels, or this is on the same level as the prequels. Nostalgia is one thing but revisionist history is something else.

These current films are far from perfect but they have an undeniable soul and character to them. That's something which could never be said about any of the prequels which were a hideous exercise in bluster and hubris, coupled with some of the worst acting I've ever seen in mainstream cinema.

I really liked TFA, it was fun and on point. TLJ on the other hand is all over the place and horrific. Despite the prequels many many flaws, i still think each of them is superior to TLJ because there is just that much wrong with it

irishthump

server down wrote: »

So for ordinary critics it’s an ok movie.

Exactly. An “ok” movie. With a little more care it would have been a GREAT movie.

But critics are a tiny cross section of the viewing public. Outside of the critics there is a split right down the middle, and it’s not just between fans and non-fans.

david75

I think if we all adjust our settings and remember Star Wars is made for little kids we can enjoy it a lot more. with that in mind TLJs humour and gags for example works a charm.


This one does take a few spins. I hated it the first time and had my third viewing last night and I love it. It’s so dense and has so much to unpack. Maybe it isn’t for everyone but there’s a lot to love.

And yes, it’s better than TFA in uncountable ways.

Agent Coulson

david75 wrote: »

I think if we all adjust our settings and remember Star Wars is made for little kids we can enjoy it a lot more. with that in mind TLJs humour and gags for example works a charm.


This one does take a few spins. I hated it the first time and had my third viewing last night and I love it. It’s so dense and has so much to unpack. Maybe it isn’t for everyone but there’s a lot to love.

And yes, it’s better than TFA in uncountable ways.

For me it is so much worse then TFA in those uncountable ways.


But that's ok you know we can all have different opinions.

david75

Agent Coulson wrote: »

For me it is so much worse then TFA in those uncountable ways.


But that's ok you know we can all have different opinions.

Well I mean I love TFA dearly this is just better at doing Star Wars things that TFA didn’t try to. The throne room sequence, the suicide/star destroyer shot, Luke force projecting, kylo and Reys force Skype. That sorta thing.
All new things we’ve never seen but are totally Star Wars. TFA could have done with some of those.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

I think if we all adjust our settings and remember Star Wars is made for little kids we can enjoy it a lot more. with that in mind TLJs humour and gags for example works a charm.

This one does take a few spins. I hated it the first time and had my third viewing last night and I love it. It’s so dense and has so much to unpack. Maybe it isn’t for everyone but there’s a lot to love.

And yes, it’s better than TFA in uncountable ways.

Honestly I don't really like how people dismiss Star Wars with an "it's made for little kids".

I also have to say I don't like how bad points of the movies are waved away because "it's just a kids movie, what do you want".

On one hand you are saying "Star Wars is made for little kids" but on the other hand you are saying "it’s so dense and has so much to unpack".

So we can use "it's just for kids" to wave away criticisms and then we can use "it has so much to unpack" to bring it back up to being a serious movie worthy of deep analysis.

I think though it does reveal how people can't ever agree on these films. Everyone seems to go into a Star Wars movie looking for something different.

david75

Saruhashi wrote: »

Honestly I don't really like how people dismiss Star Wars with an "it's made for little kids".

I also have to say I don't like how bad points of the movies are waved away because "it's just a kids movie, what do you want".

On one hand you are saying "Star Wars is made for little kids" but on the other hand you are saying "it’s so dense and has so much to unpack".

So we can use "it's just for kids" to wave away criticisms and then we can use "it has so much to unpack" to bring it back up to being a serious movie worthy of deep analysis.

I think though it does reveal how people can't ever agree on these films. Everyone seems to go into a Star Wars movie looking for something different.

George Lucas’ mantra always was and still is Star Wars is made for 8-12 year olds. This is true of the OT and the prequels. It has to work for them when you bring them to see it. There is a lot of things to unpack here and it is dense but it doesn’t exclude a kid watching it, there’s things going on thematically that will go over their heads completely and they’ll still have a wonderful time cos all those classic Star Wars elements are there for them.
An 8 year old isn’t going to be able to get into kylos internal struggles or motivations to much but he’s not going to be left out and confused cos he didn’t get it, he’s not even going to really see it.

Star Wars was always meant to be reminiscent of the old Flash Gordon episodic adventures that had been shown in cinemas in the 50s. It was lucas’ intention to echo that. And he succeeed in the ot but failed with the prequels.
TLJ captures the spirit of that intent and spirit of those serials better than anything since the ot.

Our personal take always are always defined by what we take in with us. So the outcome is always different person to person.


Ps-I was in no way dismissing Star Wars as just for kids. I love Star Wars deeply. Just stating a fact that it is in fact for kids.

Agent Coulson

Disney's Star Wars are made to make money nothing else the story is secondary after using the film for merchandising toys first and foremost.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Anyone else thinking:

If you can appear elsewhere buy the force and look different, and Leia can fly in space with her force power, that Snoke is Leia in disguise and allowed himself to be cut in half.
The fact they stated that Fisher will not make a physical appearance in the next movie has me thinking. However they seem to be taking the lest convoluted route through these new new movies and bucking fanboi theories

david75

Louisa Plump Shock wrote: »

Anyone else thinking:

If you can appear elsewhere buy the force and look different, and Leia can fly in space with her force power, that Snoke is Leia in disguise and allowed himself to be cut in half.
The fact they stated that Fisher will not make a physical appearance in the next movie has me thinking. However they seem to be taking the lest convoluted route through these new new movies and bucking fanboi theories

Snoke is Leia? That’s some crazy fanboi theorising right there

Looper007

Thought it was very good overall, not a Star Wars fanatic but I do enjoy the films, well aside from the prequels. It wasn't without faults, it sags a bit in the middle and I don't like that and I did mention this with Force Awakens

It looks like that Rey and Poe could be on for the romance, and Finn is the third wheel assuming that Rose is dead that is. Got to be honest I hope it's Finn and Rey but have my doubts now

.I know that won't be top of many people's list of things but I love the Finn and Rey thing.

Loved Mark Hamill as Luke, and he delivers his best performance in the series to date. Domhnall Gleeson, Andy Serkis and Adam Driver were all fantastic imo. John Boyega was great in what he was given, sadly nowhere near enough in this as he was in Force Awakens. Great to see Oscar Isaac been given more to do this time. I have to feel for

Gwedoline Christie as Captain Phasma, she wasted once again in a nothing role

. Lauren Dern and Benico Del Toro picked up a nice paycheck for roles that are beneath them.

The last third of the film is as great as anything in the series, and I love Rian Johnson at least tried to do something different and I probably enjoyed this more then Force Awakens. 8/10

Arne_Saknussem

I usually enjoy Domhnall Gleeson in most of the stuff he's in, i thought he was borderline unwatchable in this though.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

I usually enjoy Domhnall Gleeson in most of the stuff he's in, i thought he was borderline unwatchable in this though.

Same. It's like they totally changed his whole character for this movie. He was great in TFA.

nix

Aye, Fierce leader to comic relief, ruined

PWEI

nix wrote: »

After sleeping on it.. Whats weird is, i liked the prequels more than i liked this...

Woah, be careful.
I said something similar about the TFA & the boards film nerds slated me over it.

For all the flaws the prequels had & there were a lot, at least they were original & were Lucas's own ideas & vision.
JJ Abrams had none. He just took the best bits from the original trilogy & mashed them all together.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Why was this so bad? Who's to blame, the director or Disney?

david75

That was a bit of political commentary though

He’s giving a hate speech at a rally one day then a few days later we see him (and those like him) exposed as spineless whiny little b!tches. His only moment of power is when he had the chance to kill kylo and he doesn’t. He chickens out.
I thought he played it note perfect.

brevity

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Why was this so bad? Who's to blame, the director or Disney?

It wasn't that bad though.

I think there is a certain amount of romance associated with Star Wars. The only real decent movie is ESB. The rest are OK.

This is OK too. Some crap stuff, some good stuff just like all the others.

Arne_Saknussem

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Why was this so bad? Who's to blame, the director or Disney?

I don't know much about Johnson but i do remember a lot of enthusiasm when it was announced he was on board for this.

Surely the vast majority of the cringeworthy stuff was forced on him? Or has he never seen a Star Wars film before?

Perhaps the

Rey-Klyo Ren Skype sessions

were his idea, i thought they came off terribly either way.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

+1. It's by and large a well made film, but it's not by any stretch a good one, on so many levels. It was beyond tragic with the near scene for scene, plot device for plot device cogging of A New Hope. With the cut price Spielberg that is Abrams at the helm this was not such a shock. One thing that wasn't copied and should have been was the Hero's Journey of Luke(and damn near every hero in every narrative ever), but instead what we got was the near zero growth of Rey. She just is from the very start, just cos. Compare and contrast with Luke in the originals. He starts off pretty useless and remains so for almost the entirety of the first flic and isn't much better in the second, he's still flawed by the third and throughout the original trilogy he needs near constant help from others. Rey? Nope. Learns about the force, then discovers she has it and masters it in nigh on a couple of days within the storyline, to the degree of being able to take on a trained high powered Sith type and beat him. It takes three flics for Luke to get near that point and even then his da has to ultimately save his arse. Godawful storytelling and makes Rey an empty character that we don't really care what happens to her. She's not believable or identifiable. That Daisy Ridley makes us care for such a lightweight character says much of her acting chops and charisma.

Yep, Luke is largely rubbish at stuff in 'Star Wars' and yes needs help from the rest of the cast. But, he's relatively believable within the context of a fantasy film. Sure, he's a great pilot and a decent shot and has a vague ability with Force. But he isn't waking up one morning and doing mind tricks and force pulls, despite never having known about them before. Plus, there's supposed to be a few years between SW and Empire, so, it's not impossible that Luke's been swotting up on all things Jedi in between.

Rey just knows this shit. We're not even told why. I was hoping that 'The Last Jedi' would reveal a bit of why that was. Haven't seen the film yet though.

Daisy's cute, attractive and affable, that's what makes a lot of people warm to her and overlook the nonsense that her character represents. But Rey is really awfully written in many ways. Her implied backstory in TFA is something that a 10 year old would write. It reminds me of when I was a kid, I always wanted to play the Han Solo character, but I also wanted to be great a Jedi stuff and use a lightsaber etc. She's fan fulfillment embodied in a nice actress.

The other characters aren't much better. Finn, the everyman stormtrooper, who's a 20 year vet in the corps craps out on his first mission? WTF? His first mission after 20 years? Where do I sign up for that kind of military organisation?

The writing in TFA is awful on so many levels, that it even castrates its characters.

A much better way to write both Rey and Finn would be to have her genuinely struggle with things and grow by learning. Maybe show her as an independent student of the Force - but have her unable to control it and frustrated by her lack of control - and give her some actual background with it. She's powerful and talented, but it's still a wild thing to her and she doesn't really know what she's doing. And have Finn be a sort of Vietnam vet type. Deeply concerned with the things "he's seen" and done, but he wants to make things right. He also should be conflicted and a serious character. Not the whooping, hollering clown that he "evolved" into, two seconds after defecting.

Tony EH

Saruhashi wrote: »

A lot of funny moments like that felt more like Robot Chicken sketches making fun of Star Wars movies rather than funny parts of a Star Wars movie. Does that make sense to anyone?

I read this kind of stuff and I feel more convinced that Star Wars will be done for me.

Tony EH

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

I usually enjoy Domhnall Gleeson in most of the stuff he's in, i thought he was borderline unwatchable in this though.

He was pretty pants in 'The Force Awakens' too. His speech is bloody awful.

In any case, how the fuck did he or Boba Fett wannabe Phasma get off of the Star Killer base before it blew?

They all should be dead.

It would be like having Tarkin escape from the deathstar in the couple of seconds it took between him rubbing his chin and the base exploding.

Falthyron

Tony EH wrote: »

I read this kind of stuff and I feel more convinced that Star Wars will be done for me.

Jaysus, Tony! Go and see it! I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

AMKC

FreeOSCAR wrote: »

Definitely the most divisive Star Wars film we have experienced so far.
I enjoyed it overall but there were some really head scratching decisions made throughout I felt.
Having read through a lot of the comments here and on /r/movies (bit of a negative echo chamber at the moment IMO) here are my thoughts.

Visually stunning, easily some of the best scenes of any of the films we have seen so far.

Lightspeeding through Snoke's ship, Rey & Ren in the throne room, the Rey/Ren Jedi Skype sessions, when Yoda showed up looking all ESB Happy/Stoned puppet look , all of the parts on Crait were spectaular

the Rey/Ren Jedi Skype sessions. I did not like these at all totally ruined the film I thought and as much as I kinda would like to see it a second time I will not because of these scenes/SPOILER]

But then there are the audience criticisms I totally understand and agree with.

Leia in space, Hux & Poe 'banter' scene at the beginning, the Canto Bight space horse chase part in particular and when Maz shows up in what I have seen described as a rip-off from a video game cut scene

Leia in space. This was terrible that would have been the perfect way to ave her go out as a hero but instead they ruined that too. I am sorry but even with the Force there is no way a person could survive the vacuum of space

And then there are these criticism I don't agree with. I think a lot of hardcore SW fans are upset that how they perceived things like

how they think the force should work, or people's obsessions with wanting to understand every detail of a persons backstory.

Quite frankly get over it. Change needed to be made here.

Oh and Porgs > Ewoks > Gungans

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Saw it in the Savoy last night (farewell Screen 1!). You have to go with your gut reaction and mine was that I enjoyed it but it has problems. Parts of it I really loved and parts of it I just thought to myself 'why?'.

I'm very glad I booked another showing today with the chisellers. I badly need to see it again just to process it better as so much happened in it. It was incredibly dense, way more so than TFA.

I can completely get why some people would hate it and vice versa. It's a very different Star Wars film to anything we've seen to date and I think Rian Johnson just about pulls it off. He has tinkered with the status quo in terms of what the Force actually is and how it can be used for good and bad. This will no doubt cause hows of anguish and cries of 'You can't do that!' but it's to his credit that he did. Although not everything worked. Such as...

Leia's 'resurrection' in space...it was toe-curlingly bad. I couldn't believe what I was seeing, I was silently screaming at them 'please don't do this!' It would have been the perfect send-off for her, to have her just float away in space. She hardly did anything for the rest of the film so re-shoots and re-edits wouldn't have been a huge deal. Still, Carrie Fisher put in a worthy final performance and it was heartwarming to see her reunited with Luke, albeit not the way we would have predicted. They've clearly put Poe up as her Han Solo foil and it works but at the expense of Poe as a character. He's still quite one dimensional and that's a pity as I think Oscar Isaac does a fine job with him in general.

I agree with you here a perfect opportunity ruined.

Seeing Luke go out like that made me choke up, and in fact I could have burst into tears. I saw A New Hope in the cinema and, like Han Solo in TFA, this is an iconic character who has been always there in some form or another...films, books, comics, figures even. And now he's gone. Seeing him on the big screen again was a joy. Mark Hamill was fantastic in this film and surely he will appear in Episode 9 as a Force ghost

I thought they Rey/Kylo scenes were fantastic. This element of the story is going to throw a few people but it was handled brilliantly.

Adam Driver has given one of the best performances in any Star Wars film and Daisy Ridley wasn't far behind, she was superb. I could watch them all day long.

I loved the fact that we could root for Kylo in the throne room scene knowing full well he wasn't going to be turned back and that naked ambition was his reason for killing Snoke.

The Canto Bight sequence was rather unneccesary. It felt like the viewer was completely taken out of the film and then dropped back in. Just have Del Toro as maybe someone who was working on one of the Rebel ships, someone in the background who Rose knew and then all they had to do was call him. Something like that. It would have tightened things up. And btw, the casino would have been perfect for a Lando Calrissian cameo but it wasn't to be. Pity.

Johnson borrows substantially from a range of other films and shows. There are nods to Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, Battlestar Galactica (ironically enough!), The NeverEnding Story and of course previous Star Wars films.

The throne room scene will provoke more 'rehash' accusations as it's almost a direct lift from the Luke v Vader scene from ROTJ in places. Rey even says 'I feel the conflict within you.' Did it have to be the exact same line? But it was a fantastic scene especially when the guards launched into action

I thought it was too long and dragged out and don,t believe the guards would have done that either.

The humour is something that works well sometimes, and other times it falls flat. That's always how it's been in Star Wars. The Porgs were fine, they didn't bother me at all.

The tit-milking scene was...bizarre. General Hux is a caricature at this stage. And Phasma? We were told her role was going to be more substantial in this film but she was hardly back and then she was gone again. A waste of a potentially good character.

I agree on the scene you said was bizzare. I thought the same thing myself.

Watching Yoda on screen again was fantastic. It looked like they got his likeness all wrong when we see him at first but then it's just like seeing him as he appeared in Empire. Wonderful scene.

Overall I think the film is propelled along extremely well by incredibly strong performances from Driver, Ridley and Hamill. Don't go and see it in the hope that it will be better than Empire. That's not the way to approach it. Leave your expectations outside the door, as I did, and you will appreciate it more. But things are going to get messy on this thread, I can sense it!

the Rey/Ren Jedi Skype sessions. I did not like these at all totally ruined the film I thought and as much as I kinda would like to see it a second time I will not because of these scenes/SPOILER]

Leia's 'resurrection' in space...it was toe-curlingly bad. I couldn't believe what I was seeing, I was silently screaming at them 'please don't do this!' It would have been the perfect send-off for her, to have her just float away in space. She hardly did anything for the rest of the film so re-shoots and re-edits wouldn't have been a huge deal. Still, Carrie Fisher put in a worthy final performance and it was heartwarming to see her reunited with Luke, albeit not the way we would have predicted. They've clearly put Poe up as her Han Solo foil and it works but at the expense of Poe as a character. He's still quite one dimensional and that's a pity as I think Oscar Isaac does a fine job with him in general.

I agree with you here a perfect opportunity ruined.

But then there are the audience criticisms I totally understand and agree with.

Leia in space, Hux & Poe 'banter' scene at the beginning, the Canto Bight space horse chase part in particular and when Maz shows up in what I have seen described as a rip-off from a video game cut scene

Leia in space. This was terrible that would have been the perfect way to ave her go out as a hero but instead they ruined that too. I am sorry but even with the Force there is no way a person could survive the vacuum of space

A_Sober_Paddy

Tony EH wrote: »

Yep, Luke is largely rubbish at stuff in 'Star Wars' and yes needs help from the rest of the cast. But, he's relatively believable within the context of a fantasy film. Sure, he's a great pilot and a decent shot and has a vague ability with Force. But he isn't waking up one morning and doing mind tricks and force pulls, despite never having known about them before. Plus, there's supposed to be a few years between SW and Empire, so, it's not impossible that Luke's been swotting up on all things Jedi in between.

Rey just knows this shit. We're not even told why. I was hoping that 'The Last Jedi' would reveal a bit of why that was. Haven't seen the film yet though.

Daisy's cute, attractive and affable, that's what makes a lot of people warm to her and overlook the nonsense that her character represents. But Rey is really awfully written in many ways. Her implied backstory in TFA is something that a 10 year old would write. It reminds me of when I was a kid, I always wanted to play the Han Solo character, but I also wanted to be great a Jedi stuff and use a lightsaber etc. She's fan fulfillment embodied in a nice actress.

The other characters aren't much better. Finn, the everyman stormtrooper, who's a 20 year vet in the corps craps out on his first mission? WTF? His first mission after 20 years? Where do I sign up for that kind of military organisation?

The writing in TFA is awful on so many levels, that it even castrates its characters.

A much better way to write both Rey and Finn would be to have her genuinely struggle with things and grow by learning. Maybe show her as an independent student of the Force - but have her unable to control it and frustrated by her lack of control - and give her some actual background with it. She's powerful and talented, but it's still a wild thing to her and she doesn't really know what she's doing. And have Finn be a sort of Vietnam vet type. Deeply concerned with the things "he's seen" and done, but he wants to make things right. He also should be conflicted and a serious character. Not the whooping, hollering clown that he "evolved" into, two seconds after defecting.

Maybe Rey is the chosen one, to bring balance to the force and it was never anakin.

robinph

Tony EH wrote: »

The other characters aren't much better. Finn, the everyman stormtrooper, who's a 20 year vet in the corps craps out on his first mission? WTF? His first mission after 20 years? Where do I sign up for that kind of military organisation?

He was working in the sanitation department apparently, yet somehow Phasma knew of his mop wielding skills and I guess personally moved him to Kylo Ren's personal bunch of storm troopers just before TFA for some reason.

Him being a master at mopping can be the only way he knows so much about the inner structures of the various Star Destroyers and Star Killer base as he must have been called up for all the top cleaning jobs within the First Order. Certainly any regular trooper shouldn't be knowing as much about the inner workings of whatever base/ star ship they happen to be based on.

py2006

If you have seen it, take a peek at this (warning spoiler)

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Ok so I hated this film. A lot of people did but the over reactions are hilarious. "Im done with Star Wars" "Star Wars is dead" etc.

Jesus it's one bad movie. TFA and Rogue one were brilliant and with JJ coming back for the third movie I'm confident he can make something great.

ricero

py2006 wrote: »

If you have seen it, take a peek at this (warning spoiler)

Only thing that pissed me off in the whole film

Falthyron

py2006 wrote: »

If you have seen it, take a peek at this (warning spoiler)

As I said in my review: that moment is up there with 'I don't like sand'. :pac: