Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

The Nal

A new Star Wars and here we go again.

brevity

It was a bad idea in the first place but the execution made it even worse.

Tony EH

Falthyron wrote: »

Jaysus, Tony! Go and see it! I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Might pop in during the week and have a gander. When all the hoopla dies down.

AMKC

py2006 wrote: »

If you have seen it, take a peek at this (warning spoiler)

Ha that hilarious not the scene but what someone done to it. Worst scene in any movie in a long time. Just utterly terrible.

Tony EH

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Maybe Rey is the chosen one, to bring balance to the force and it was never anakin.

Was she a virgin birth too?

Ugh...

Chosen ones, virgin births, midichlorians...oh my.

Tony EH

robinph wrote: »

He was working in the sanitation department apparently, yet somehow Phasma knew of his mop wielding skills and I guess personally moved him to Kylo Ren's personal bunch of storm troopers just before TFA for some reason.

Him being a master at mopping can be the only way he knows so much about the inner structures of the various Star Destroyers and Star Killer base as he must have been called up for all the top cleaning jobs within the First Order. Certainly any regular trooper shouldn't be knowing as much about the inner workings of whatever base/ star ship they happen to be based on.

LOL.

It's not the tool, it's what you do with it that matters.

Wibbs

Tony EH wrote: »

Yep, Luke is largely rubbish at stuff in 'Star Wars' and yes needs help from the rest of the cast. But, he's relatively believable within the context of a fantasy film. Sure, he's a great pilot and a decent shot and has a vague ability with Force. But he isn't waking up one morning and doing mind tricks and force pulls, despite never having known about them before. Plus, there's supposed to be a few years between SW and Empire, so, it's not impossible that Luke's been swotting up on all things Jedi in between.

Rey just knows this shit. We're not even told why. I was hoping that 'The Last Jedi' would reveal a bit of why that was. Haven't seen the film yet though.

Daisy's cute, attractive and affable, that's what makes a lot of people warm to her and overlook the nonsense that her character represents. But Rey is really awfully written in many ways. Her implied backstory in TFA is something that a 10 year old would write. It reminds me of when I was a kid, I always wanted to play the Han Solo character, but I also wanted to be great a Jedi stuff and use a lightsaber etc. She's fan fulfillment embodied in a nice actress.

The other characters aren't much better. Finn, the everyman stormtrooper, who's a 20 year vet in the corps craps out on his first mission? WTF? His first mission after 20 years? Where do I sign up for that kind of military organisation?

The writing in TFA is awful on so many levels, that it even castrates its characters.

A much better way to write both Rey and Finn would be to have her genuinely struggle with things and grow by learning. Maybe show her as an independent student of the Force - but have her unable to control it and frustrated by her lack of control - and give her some actual background with it. She's powerful and talented, but it's still a wild thing to her and she doesn't really know what she's doing. And have Finn be a sort of Vietnam vet type. Deeply concerned with the things "he's seen" and done, but he wants to make things right. He also should be conflicted and a serious character. Not the whooping, hollering clown that he "evolved" into, two seconds after defecting.

Nail. On. Head. Those kinda backstories and development would make sense. God forbid. There is zero character development going on and with daft backstories that make no sense(TLJ doesn't help with Rey). It's incredibly bad writing. When I first watched The Farce Awakens my initial thought after bugger me, I've seen all this before, was they did that with Rey because they were going for the "girl power" angle to shore up that demographic(the whole don't hold my hand type stuff), but as you note none of the new characters have much of a backstory either, Ren the exception, but in TFA he comes across more as a petulant teen(he's better in TLJ).

Rey like you say is basically and almost entirely a fan fulfilment fantasy. She can do all the things, near instantly. We meet her as an orphaned

(her ancestry was mooted as a possible reason for her force skills, but turns out..)

scavenger on Tatooine, sorry whatever it's called, within a couple of scenes she's also an accomplished star pilot(and engineer) who just knows how to fly the Falcon and learns about and then uses the force within hours and within days can use this previously unknown ability to mind melt a trained Sith and then soon after defeat him with a weapon she's never held or even switched on before. Then of course Chewie just gives up the driver's seat of his barely cold dead best friends ship to a stranger(who is also trusted with an important mission to find Luke. Just cos). Rey is the very definition of a Mary Sue and bloody awful writing.

Contrast that with Luke in his first outing. Mad into flying as a hobby, signed up and accepted for the academy, but when he suggests he could fly him and Ben as he's a pretty good pilot, Han pretty much laughs at him(and Ben is all "there there child"). That he's able to work an X wing is more believable. Even then he needs Ben's ghost voice to "use the force"(and needs Han and Chewie to save him from his da). When he first goes looking for Ben he gets his arse kicked by a local, until Ben saves him. Then after he can't save his Uncle and Aunt he ends up in the cantina where a couple of tough guys are about to kick his arse, again Ben has to save him. His first tries with a light sabre are clumsy. A droid hover ball thingy beats him initially. On his Death Star rescue mission him and Han are saved by Leia. Leia saves him again soon after. He's not much better in ESB. Barely escapes Ice Bigfoot and near freezes to death until, oh look, Han saves him. Yoda thinks he's a so so bet and going against Yoda's advice goes off half cocked and under trained(but at least he had some Jedi training) to face his da. Who completely outclasses him and cuts off his hand to hammer the point home. Which you would fully expect if a powerful force dude, trained as a Jedi and a Sith for decades went up against an ex farm boy with a few weeks of training, regardless of his force powahs. Indeed Luke Skywalker is about the single most flawed heros in popular culture. But it's all believable. If Luke had kicked Da Vader's arse in the fashion of Mary Rey Sue ESB would not have even close the reputation is has today.

Compare and contrast the two characters. Compare and contrast the age old mythology narrative in one and that is entirely absent in the other. Interestingly because Luke was kinda so so in the first outing, Lucas could extend the hero's journey into the two sequels. Contrast with Neo in the Matrix. His journey and story was done at the end of the first and why it was a good flic and the sequels went boldly up their own arse, with bigger whizz bangs.

Look at the "baddies". Similar daftness goes on there. No backstory yet for Snoke. No explanation how the First Order were able to turnaround the empire's defeat to the degree where they could build yet another army and armada and Death Star, sorry Star Killer base without anybody noticing and soon after take over the galaxy. Take Domhnall Gleeson's character and compare him to mid level empire commanders of the past. The latter at least came across as competent military types. Vader respected Tarkin for example.

py2006 wrote:

If you have seen it, take a peek at this (warning spoiler)

Oh God that was truly awful. :eek::pac::pac:



Though like I said it's in the general nature of blockbusters these days. The audiences are generally more into the rollorcoaster thrill and spills coming thick and fast, character is ignored in favour of easily digestible plot and instant heroes and heroines are the order of the day. Kinda like how porn changed(bear with me...), where once there was some plot, nowadays people just want the money shots. And y'know what? That's fine, but blockbuster cinema is rarely in need, nor can bear, much in the way of narrative analysis.

A long time ago in a Galaxy far far away. Same could be said of the writing.

Clareman

I went to see it last night, a few things really annoyed me

1

So Force talking is a thing now and Luke can project himself to hundreds/thousands of people

2

Yoda decides to just turn up to burn down the tree

3

Cutting a ship in half at light speed, why not just do that with the ships that were running out of fuel?

4

Rey is a no-one but has super powers

5

Snoke is all powerful but no where a few years before hand

6

So Leia has force powers now and can survive in space

BlitzKrieg

Clareman wrote: »

I went to see it last night, a few things really annoyed me

1

So Force talking is a thing now and Luke can project himself to hundreds/thousands of people

2

Yoda decides to just turn up to burn down the tree

3

Cutting a ship in half at light speed, why not just do that with the ships that were running out of fuel?

4

Rey is a no-one but has super powers

5

Snoke is all powerful but no where a few years before hand

6

So Leia has force powers now and can survive in space

I think on point 1 and 2

He was using the chain he took from the Millennium Falcon's cockpit as a focus, its heavily underwritten what the chain was though. My assumption is it's something connecting Han and Leia. Should have been fleshed out more.

2 yes, its oddly a cap point on his arc from Revenge of the Sith where he was very clear that the original ideas of the Jedi order need to be moved aside for a new approach, the whole idea of force ghosts is drawn from this new approach. So its not weird that he'd help Luke cut off that tie he had to the old way.

I never gave my own full review of it, I didnt hate it, didnt love it either, felt like a large chunk of it was a reaction to The Force Awakens with very intentional cutting of ties to old assumptions, I genuinely liked that

Ray's parents are nobodies, it's better then her being conceived by the Force or another Skywalker. And I genuinely like that they got rid of 2 bit "emperor palpatine" Snoke. They werent doing anything fresh with him so twisting convention by killing him off like that felt right, it does leave a big void of where part 3 is going and I think there is a gaping hole they might struggle to fill with more weak characters, but it would have been better then repeating old ground with Snoke again in the 3rd part

Saying all that positive though I must address the negatives, it's got a bloated plotline that could have been streamlined, unneeded cameos from characters from the previous film leading into a set piece that could have come directly from the prequels. It's somewhat annoying that plot threads used in the film have been seen elsewhere and done better (see: episode 1 of battlestar galactica "33") and I think the film might have benefited from ending on a more clear footing the nit did.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

Though like I said it's in the general nature of blockbusters these days. The audiences are generally more into the rollorcoaster thrill and spills coming thick and fast, character is ignored in favour of easily digestible plot and instant heroes and heroines are the order of the day. Kinda like how porn changed(bear with me...), where once there was some plot, nowadays people just want the money shots. And y'know what? That's fine, but blockbuster cinema is rarely in need, nor can bear, much in the way of narrative analysis.

A long time ago in a Galaxy far far away. Same could be said of the writing.

Yeh, it's the instant gratification. Studios feel that the audience wants to get to the end as quick as possible. There's no build up in these blockbusters any more. It's all wham bam...fight...end...possible sequel - depending on money.

The original 'Star Wars' - even though it feels fast paced - still took its time setting up. We don't see Luke until the end of the first reel and Han Solo doesn't make an appearance until nearly half way through (although it could be argued that he's support). The story unfolds gradually. The modern hollywood product is a flash in the pan compared to it.

david75

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Ok so I hated this film. A lot of people did but the over reactions are hilarious. "Im done with Star Wars" "Star Wars is dead" etc.

Jesus it's one bad movie. TFA and Rogue one were brilliant and with JJ coming back for the third movie I'm confident he can make something great.

I’m finding the reactions hilarious. Losing their minds about it Let them leave Star Wars. Hardcore Fans especially and casual fans Thinning the herd was never a bad thing

BlitzKrieg

david75 wrote: »

I’m finding the reactions hilarious. Losing their minds about it Let them leave Star Wars. Hardcore Fans especially and casual fans Thinning the herd was never a bad thing

Not just them, you got a sprinkling of the usual Alt right bullsh*ttery mixed in there

This was one review on Rotten Tomatoes:

10. Force Skype
9. Virtual lightsaber battle at the end.
8. Psuedo pod racing scene with animal rights angle.
7. Over-the-top feminist themes intensified.
6. Continued hatred and exclusions of white males in the cast, unless cast as evil.
5. Snoke was a strong, strong character. Why kill him off so easily?
4. Only 3 lessons of Jedi training?
3. Porg.
2. The movie started off as a comedy. The jokes were funny, but Star Wars is NOT a comedy.
1. Leia survives being sucked out into space without a space suit on.

points 7 and 6 are the usual face palming crap from these types

FutureGuy

What the fcuk did I just watch

radonicus

I assume everybody's browser is showing ads for The Last Jedi, just to rub it in?

My initial disappointment is being compounded as I read reminders of bits I had forgotten abou.

slave1

Well well well, just back from viewing it.....

Hmmmmmm, need to see it again before making up my mind, certainly great in parts, some cringy too, think I'll skip another cinema viewing and catch it on BR in March.....

david75

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Not just them, you got a sprinkling of the usual Alt right bullsh*ttery mixed in there

This was one review on Rotten Tomatoes:

10. Force Skype
9. Virtual lightsaber battle at the end.
8. Psuedo pod racing scene with animal rights angle.
7. Over-the-top feminist themes intensified.
6. Continued hatred and exclusions of white males in the cast, unless cast as evil.
5. Snoke was a strong, strong character. Why kill him off so easily?
4. Only 3 lessons of Jedi training?
3. Porg.
2. The movie started off as a comedy. The jokes were funny, but Star Wars is NOT a comedy.
1. Leia survives being sucked out into space without a space suit on.

points 7 and 6 are the usual face palming crap from these types

The frightening part about that is the stories given to the characters of different ethnicities are where the film falls down. So that’ll stir this crap up.
Still remember the really ugly backlash against Boyega in the first TFA teaser as a stormtrooper simply because he was black and seemingly the lead of the film. That was horrific.

david75

yep

https://twitter.com/agentbizzle/status/941691022777532416

Slydice

Ouch
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

radonicus

david75 wrote: »

yep

https://twitter.com/agentbizzle/status/941691022777532416

That's rather simplistic. Lactation isn't risky, it's absurd. (I think I'll bow out at that.)

Agent Coulson

That tweet is a very simplistic view alright at comparing fans views on the two films and totally wrong I would imagine let alone the casual viewers.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Stupid tweet. There's taking risks and then there's the mess they gave us.

In my anticipation for The Last Jedi, I watched Rogue One for the first time last night...

WHAT THE FÚCKIN FÚCK DISNEY!? Such an amount of death.
Sure I may as well have put Schindlers List on for some Thursday night relaxation

Can't believe they made that call - some balls for a Star Wars movie.

I thought Rogue One was very good. It has flaws, but so do most things I enjoy.

Those last 90 seconds :eek: Yes, we've seen that character demonstrate great power in other movies before, but that tunnel scene was something else entirely. Just frightening.

Anyway, roll on Sunday night when I'll hopefully get to see The Last Jedi. Obviously since I only saw Rogue One for the first time last night, I'm not a huge Star Wars fan, but still really enjoy the movies and lore.

david75

its true though..the point being people are gonna b!tch and moan no matter what you do..

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

david75 wrote: »

its true though..the point being people are gonna b!tch and moan no matter what you do..

That's fair. I do remember this reaction from a good few people after TFA and Rogue One...in their cases I don't think the criticism was deserved. They're not perfect but both imho are up there with ANH and ROTJ.
I really thought Disney were doing a great job and that the Star Wars universe was in safe hands until this steaming pile of shíte.

david75

Hunky Monster wrote: »

That's fair. I do remember this reaction from a good few people after TFA and Rogue One...in their cases I don't think the criticism was deserved. They're not perfect but both imho are up there with ANH and ROTJ.
I really thought Disney were doing a great job and that the Star Wars universe was in safe hands until this steaming pile of shíte.

i can only say i agree with you when i first saw it and it improved greatly upon second viewing once the shock and awe of it went away and then the brilliant parts of it stand out. There's loads of really great star wars in here that's new and worthwhile.

Slydice

Jeez... the score went down as I went to compare it to the other films

anyway..



The Last Jedi: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

The Phantom Menace: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_i_the_phantom_menace/
Attack of the Clones: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_ii_attack_of_the_clones/
Revenge of the Sith: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_iii_revenge_of_the_sith/

A New Hope: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars/
The Empire Strikes Back: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/empire_strikes_back/
Return of the Jedi: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_vi_return_of_the_jedi/

The Force Awakens: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_vii_the_force_awakens/
Rogue One: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/rogue_one_a_star_wars_story/

Liamario

david75 wrote: »

i can only say i agree with you when i first saw it and it improved greatly upon second viewing once the shock and awe of it went away and then the brilliant parts of it stand out. There's loads of really great star wars in here that's new and worthwhile.

There may be moments that are worthwhile, but it's dishonest to pick specific things out that might be good objectively in order to prop up the movie as a whole. That may not be what you were intending, but is something that defenders of the PT do.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

yep

https://twitter.com/agentbizzle/status/941691022777532416

Laughable.

The more I see people desperately trying to defend the movie with disingenuous stuff like this the more I reckon they know deep down the movie is a bit crap.

Nobody is saying "I didn't like this because it took risks". You must know that so what's the point of this "hurr durr, the fans are so dumb" stuff?

It's entirely possible that by playing it safe TFA came across as a bit of a product and a bit less creative than people would like. That's a valid criticism.

It's also possible that TLJ took risks that failed spectacularly causing people to feel like this was a creative movie but not a good one. That's a valid criticism too.

Movie A played it safe and I didn't like it.
Movie B took risks AND THEY PAID OFF so I liked it.
Movie C took risks AND THEY DID NOT PAY OFF so I didn't like it.

You are acting like the choices are "they played it safe" and "they took risks" and people either have to pick one or the other.

Defend the movie by attacking the fans. Brilliant.

Star Wars fans are just dumb. Am I right guys?

Look at these clowns. They said the first movie was "too safe" so this movie took risks and now they are saying risks are bad. Haw haw. Haw haw haw. Star Wars fans R DUM U GUYZ.

No. It took risks and those risks didn't pay off. Hence, criticism.

Sorry but this feels like you are trying to logically convince people to like the movie or logically prove that they must be dumb hypocrites if they don't like it.

Sad Professor

david75

Liamario wrote: »

There may be moments that are worthwhile, but it's dishonest to pick specific things out that might be good objectively in order to prop up the movie as a whole. That may not be what you were intending, but is something that defenders of the PT do.

Nobdoy said its perfect..least of all me...it has its flaws like every SW film has but its in no way as bad as its being made out to be. People love nothing more than getting taking part in a sh!t frenzy, its what our culture does now, and things like Rotten tomatoes feeds that and amplifies it.

The whole premise of RT baffles me.. 70% of people hate this film it must be sh!t im not going AND im gonna campaign against it online!!
are we herded so easily these days? seems like it.