Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

wingnut32

On another note its certainly going to be an interesting discussion on what Rian will do with his new trilogy. Im hoping its not a continuation of where we are now. Id love to see something around the KOTOR age. I think he can do something exceptional in a different era.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

wingnut32 wrote: »

On another note its certainly going to be an interesting discussion on what Rian will do with his new trilogy. Im hoping its not a continuation of where we are now. Id love to see something around the KOTOR age. I think he can do something exceptional in a different era.

I agree. I hated this movie but a lot of that was to do with how much I liked TFA and the setup that made for this film. I think in a standalone trilogy it might be ok.

I'm just putting this movie down to too much Disney meddling and trying to sell 4 breasted toys and porgs.

Jerichoholic

I loved it, don't get me wrong please. I just can't see what they can do for the next one that will be better that 7 and 8. Was hoping Rey would accept actually, would have set up some sweet business.

They could have done so much. It had so much potential. I wanted a big "holy ****" moment and it was within their grasp. But they squander it and go back to normal 5 minutes after the Kylo/Rey fight?! They could have had Snoke kill Rey, Kylo going ****ing ape **** from there. Or anything than what they went for.

J. Marston

Maybe it's fatigue? Not a huge SW fan but the original trilogy and prequels came out over the course of 6-7 years each. So they had longer to get things right (maybe not for the prequels) and longer for fans to anticipate it.

This generation has had 3 movies in 3 years.

Hector Savage

Just out of this.
Really liked it, there were some things I didn't like but the positives really outweighed them.

Still a lot to process though and looking forward to a second viewing in a few weeks.

I was very surprised they killed off Snoke in this film and so easily - allthough the battle with the red guards was AWESOME!!
I don't know what they will do for a villian in the 3rd film, Kylo Ren doesn't really fill that void for me ... there needs to be more of a monovalent evil superboss.
And he was such a cool badguy, I was really beginning to enjoy his scenes and presence and then boom - I wonder could he return as some sort of force ghost ? or maybe Sith can't return as these?
Also a pity we wont find out who he was - in my mind he was Darth Plageuis.
Rose + Finn story could have been left out - and looks like she will be in the next film - pity, terrible character.

YODA !!! amazing !! so happy he was in it ... but why did they make him like the cheap ****ty puppet in ESB and ROTJ ...
The CGI version is much better.

I was hoping we would see Ewan McGregor as a force ghost - but I still have hope to see him in IX.

Apart from that it was great !
oh yeah and

some people I was with were really dissapointed Luke died, but, he will definitely be in IX as a force ghost for sure ..

LeinsterDub

Hector Savage wrote: »

YODA !!! amazing !! so happy he was in it ... but why did they make him like the cheap ****ty puppet in ESB and ROTJ ...
The CGI version is much better..

You can please some of the people all of the time...

When they are CGI people complain, when they are puppets people complain.

Osmosis Jones

CGI Yoda is definitely not better

Jerichoholic

Force ghosts are fair game now it seems, so anyone who dies can come back.

Fantastic movie though.

Jerichoholic

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

CGI Yoda is definitely not better

Thought that was a bit too much fan service myself.

Mokuba

I really enjoyed this.

Some people seem particularly fascinated with Rotten Tomatoes audience ratings, as if they want to be part of the side with the majority of opinion. Who cares? Russia influencing critics? Ok.

Shame that instead of an actual back and forth discussion about the movie, this thread has devolved into a complete cesspit.

This movie took risks, risks that you won't likely see in many, if any franchise blockbusters. People berated the first one for playing it too safe with the tried and familiar - people berating this one for taking Star Wars in a brave new direction. Refreshing to see something that isn't a cookie cutter film made by 20 producers.

Seems a lot of people went into this movie with pre-conceived notions and theories and it seems that having them completely deconstructed has left many with a sour taste.

Some of the techniques that Johnson used in this movie are more ambitious than any Star Wars movie. Cinematography was the best in any Star Wars film, probably any franchise blockbuster. That shot of the

light-speed crash was absolutely phenomenal

There are clear and defined arcs for the characters, there is growth and lessons are learned. Characters mature and Johnson subverts things a bit because nothing in this movie is black and white. There is grey or balance to everything.

The acting was brilliant. Daisy Ridley (incredible improvement on Force Awakens, has really grown into the role) and Adam Driver (was very good in Force Awakens but he is sensational in this) play off each other so well. Kylo Ren is surely a better villain than Vader ever was. So much depth to him. Mark Hamill gave his best performance on film.

I felt like all of the plots mattered, there was a reason and a payoff for everything.

I find it ironic for people to complain about

Luke having the moment of weakness when considering killing Kylo, when in ROTJ he is a moment away from killing his father and cuts his arm off.

The connection between

Kylo and Rey was so interesting to watch

, and there was such tension when

they finally met face to face. The scene with Snoke, was so brilliantly done, and the lightsaber fight which followed was one of the best in any Star Wars film.

The odd Porg here or there surely doesn't make or break a movie. They didn't impact the plot and they had very little screen-time, unlike another furry creature which helped destroy a galactic empire.

Jerichoholic

I liked Daisy a lot, moreso in the first movie, just didn't feel she had the right power (if you get me) to pull off such a powerful character, She's great as Rey in Ep VII but I felt couldn't cut it as a believable badass here

Is everything spoilers here? Surely nobody would be stupid enough to go through this thread before seeing the movie?

Arne_Saknussem

Mokuba wrote: »

Seems a lot of people went into this movie with pre-conceived notions and theories and it seems that having them completely deconstructed has left many with a sour taste.
.

People who liked the film trying to put those who didn't into some little uniform pigeonhole is amusing.

I had no preconceptions going in, i was excited as to where they might go with it as being the 2nd of 3 it didn't need to have any defined outcome and they basically had a blank canvas and good setup from the last film to work it.

I just thought they got it completely wrong, it really came across as an effort to transfer the cash-spinning Superhero movie formula into Star Wars and it stank.

shamrock55

Seen it tonight and didn't think much of it,it's all getting a bit boring now tbh,when I saw the ending I thought ah Christ are we gonna have to go through this again, I wish they had left it at the original 3 films because they've made an utter balls of the whole thing

Mokuba

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

People who liked the film trying to put those who didn't into some little uniform pigeonhole is amusing.

I had no preconceptions going in, i was excited as to where they might go with it as being the 2nd of 3 it didn't need to have any defined outcome and they basically had a blank canvas and good setup from the last film to work it.

I just thought they got it completely wrong, it really came across as an effort to transfer the cash-spinning Superhero movie formula into Star Wars and it stank.

I personally can't see how you could possibly equate the undeniably risk averse Superhero genre with this movie which was so completely brave in choices it took and decisions it made. I really struggle to see how anybody could possibly see the two in the same light. Even if you come down on the side of their risks not working. At least Johnson made them.

Surely if they were trying to replicate the Superhero Genres success they would have made a much safer movie?

shamrock55

Kylo isn't a patch on Vader either,when Vader was on screen he grabbed everyone's attention,kylo is the opposite,he's a terrible villain,real pity he wasn't killed off in this film,maybe that would've made it half decent

Osmosis Jones

Adam Driver's the best part of these movies for me

Mokuba

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Adam Driver's the best part of these movies for me

He has been a revelation. Such a brilliant character and so well acted.

Arne_Saknussem

Mokuba wrote: »

I personally can't see how you could possibly equate the undeniably risk averse Superhero genre with this movie which was so completely brave in choices it took and decisions it made. I really struggle to see how anybody could possibly see the two in the same light. Even if you come down on the side of their risks not working. At least Johnson made them.

Surely if they were trying to replicate the Superhero Genres success they would have made a much safer movie?

- The slapstick humour
- The cute little mascots
-

Leia's Superman in Space nonsense

- the cringy action-action-pause...one liner's
- the need to **** on established characters in a lame attempt to make them flawed to reinterest punters(makes sense in Superhero films as people get tired of rebooting the same one's repeatedly)
- the laughably overblown action sequences

BB-8 AT-AT

-

the CodeBreaker character- pure superhero stuff there, moniker and all

off the top of my head felt out of place and an attempt to play it safe and give people what had been successful for Marvel and the like, most probably by the studio.

Thought there were loads of tropes of major superhero films of the recent past, it felt like a superhero film watching it.

The 'risks' as you put it didn't work for me because they badly thought out, and the execution of the film then doubled down on the ****ness.

Jerichoholic

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

- The slapstick humour
- The cute little mascots
-

Leia's Superman in Space nonsense

- the cringy action-action-pause...one liner's
- the need to **** on established characters in a lame attempt to make them flawed to reinterest punters(makes sense in Superhero films as people get tired of rebooting the same one's repeatedly)
- the laughably overblown action sequences

BB-8 AT-AT

-

the CodeBreaker character- pure superhero stuff there, moniker and all

off the top of my head felt out of place and an attempt to play it safe and give people what had been successful for Marvel and the like, most probably by the studio.

Thought there were loads of tropes of major superhero films of the recent past, it felt like a superhero film watching it.

The 'risks' as you put it didn't work for me because they badly thought out, and the execution of the film then doubled down on the ****ness.

I'll agree with most of of those points, but they weren't much of a factor for me, just nitpicking really overall. That's just JJ, and how movies have evolved since 1983. I thought they took some incredible risks in this movie too. e.g

The clean cuts between Kylo and Rey in their mind meld scenes. They didn't use any effects whatsoever to show the audience what was happening. I thought that was ballsy.

I agree about Adam Driver, thought he stole the show. Don't think Daisy has the believability to pull off such an important character. I think she's great overall and was looking forward to her performance, I just think she sometimes felt like she could have been better off in Eastenders or something.

TerrorFirmer

Hard to know where to begin with this to be honest. Thought I think it's important before I go on my big long spiel about what was right or wrong with the movie to say that I very much enjoyed The Last Jedi overall.

My gut reaction both watching and coming out of the movie was that it was good. I think a huge element of that was both relief and delight that unlike TFA it actually stands on its own feet and does something new.

I did, and do, like TFA but I was disappointed with it at the time for that reason - though now with the addition of TLJ, the first film immediately becomes far stronger for which TJL also deserves major kudos.

I very much dislike this notion that "play it safe, damned, take risks, damned". That is a very childish perspective to take on The Last Jedi.

Rogue One took risks that paid off. The Last Jedi takes a number of risks that don't - they're not narrative risks ala RO, they're tonal risks, some of which work OK....and many that don't.

The humour is a major misfire - it works well in many scenes, and Star Wars has always been tongue in cheek, but some TLJ ventures far too north into actual slapstick territory, particularly at the very start of the movie.

The performances are excellent, and I have to take my hat off to Adam Driver as Kylo Ren - I thought he was great in TFA and I was irritated that so many people seemed to miss the point of his character - a troubled, conflicted aspiring 'baddie' hiding behind the myth and icon of a mask.

He really steals the show in this - there is wonderful depth to the character in TLJ. I would say most of the actors do a fine job - I'm a little on the fence about some of the direction they went with certain characters, but overall the acting across the board is solid.

Visually, it's a real treat I think. There are some magnificent scenes and the use of contrast and color is astoundingly good - several scenes are unlike anything you've seen in Star Wars before and those are some of the risks that paid off immensely.

There's more creativity and improved world building on display here too - the one thing I would always credit Lucas for with his prequels is his vision and ability to create a living breathing galaxy.

TLJ is better than TFA in that respect but could still do with a little more I felt, but it drastically improved on TFA which was very limited in terms of fresh content.

Now, moving past the spoiler free zone - for me a lot of the problems below.

The most glaring issue with the film was the uneven humor. Subtle and visual gags are generally fine and have always been a part of Star Wars - case in point, the Porg stuff worked surprisingly well - but it went way too far into slapstick territory. The opening scene between Hux and Poe actually filled me with dismay. As did the opening scene with Rey and Luke, as she expectantly holds out the lightsabre - only for the dramatic music to cut out abruptly and Luke to fling it over his shoulder ala something from a spoof. They destroyed the huge emotional weight behind it and they could have just had Luke throw it aside and storm away for far greater effect.

A close second is that bizarre scene with Leia after the bridge is blown out. Such an immensely powerful moment intiminately tied in with Kylo Ren's inner turmoil that would have served as an immense exit point for the character - only to sleep-space-walk back into the ship like a floating ghost. The visual execution of his scene was particularly abysmal.

Not wild on the direction they took Luke. I thought the revelation about the origin of Kylo Ren was a good twist and worked well, but I just didn't fully feel on board with the behaviors and mannerisms of Luke throughout the film.

I like Rey but I'm getting tired of the lack of proper character development, they've been content from TFA to just make her this trope of 'kick ass girl power' without bothering to have the character earn it in the first instant. Her arc should be more closely mirroed to that of Luke in ANH and ESB but she jumps immediately into ROTJ with zero explanation which is grating.

Captain Phasma - seriously, what? Sidelined in the first movie, promised more time in TLJ only to be offered a totally unnecessary, trivial token role that again amounts of nothing save for a nod back to the first movie.

And what I did like - and some general notes:

Kylo Ren, terrific arc for this character, notwithstanding that the ridiculous, unexplained power of Rey somewhat diminishes his credibility and presence.

Magnificent acting from Adam Driver, the tortured conflict is etched on his face the entire movie. Loved when Snoke said "take off that ridiculous mask" - an icon he used to mask his inner turmoil and draw power from in TFA. As above, I think a lot of people missed the point of Kylo Ren in the first movie.

What they're achieved with the character is incredible - as someone pointed out, he's no vader but the new trilogy is all the better for it - instead of rooting for the demise of the 'baddie' we find ourselves understanding the rage within Kylo Ren and sympathise with the fact that he was created out of hate, not from within but by his own master. That is the sort of heavy emotional weight that should have been in George Lucas' prequel trilogy, but that he dismally failed to capture.

The fight in the throne room was magnificent, though once again the major bum note for me was Rey's unexplained jedi-like level of skill with both the force and a sabre. The death of Snoke actually left me with my mouth hanging open - loved it. That was a ballsy move and it worked beautifully though I kept expecting some sort of miraculous resurrection at any moment. However, I'm generally frustrated that we didn't learn anything about Snoke whatsoever, who he is, where he came from, or how he came to be the horribly scarred creature that he is.

Is there more to Rey's heritage we've yet to have explained? I don't believe what Ren said about her parents is true - I think there's more there to be explored.

Honestly, I could go on all day, but they're just some of the main points for me - there is so much more to discuss, for good and bad, but that's what really stood out for me. Overall, I really enjoyed it, and when I now take TFA and TLJ together, there's the guts of a very strong trilogy now on the shelf.

I think there are loads of valid criticisms floating around. Some people are nit-picking on minute details, but it's not fair to trot out this 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' line in response to valid concerns.

I think the movie has problems...some minor, some major, and some incredibly frustrating...but for me the good vastly outweights the bad.

I enjoyed this more than TFA and consider it a solid entry into the franchise.

Arne_Saknussem

Jerichoholic wrote: »

I'll agree with most of of those points, but they weren't much of a factor for me, just nitpicking really overall. That's just JJ, and how movies have evolved since 1983.

Yeah i suppose, it's such a financial behemoth Star Wars that you'd think the template wouldn't be necessary.

But like i said, most probably foisted on Johnson by Disney.

Drumpot

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Adam Driver's the best part of these movies for me

I agree and I loved it. But I get the impression you mean it from a "this movie wasn't great, but Driver was" perspective ?!

I love the star wars movies and I enjoyed TFA, but I find Rogue one oddly different . If Star wars is on TV, I might watch bits here and there but for Rogue One I will usually sit down and watch most of it. Now that could be because I have see the others hundreds of times but for me, when it comes to TFA, it reminds me of Marvel stuff.

I seldom get excited about watching Marvel stuff again. I enjoy it on first viewing as it nearly always ticks the right boxes , but there is seldom anything epic or remarkable to look forward to. TFA was prob in that bracket in that there isn't any one moment I love to see again in TFA. With Rogue one, the Vader scene always gets me excited like a kid. Nothing in Marvel comes close to that moment.


In TLJ I think it has multiple moments I will want to see again like

Snoke, Rey, Kylo scene which was a superb scene on so many levels. I just love the interaction between these characters. Then Luke at the end was just beautiful. Luke’s redemption and final stage was a wonderful send off for a beloved character.

Wibbs

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Don't think Daisy has the believability to pull off such an important character. I think she's great overall and was looking forward to her performance, I just think she sometimes felt like she could have been better off in Eastenders or something.

IMO it's far less to do with the actress than the words and character on the pages of the script. It's a really puzzlingly badly written part for such a big role in a franchise with so much talent in the mix behind the camera. There's nothing much beyond reading the lines and jumping about in the role. No real character development, she's just this unbelievable Mary Sue from the very get go. How nobody asked these questions in the early days of writing is beyond me. I would say if anything it's her personal charisma and acting chops that make the role even watchable.

Driver has by far the easier task. OK it's a tad moping angsty teenager millennial especially in his first outing(he's better in this flic), but he has a backstory, he has reasons why he's the way he is, he has reasons why he can wield the oul force the way he can. Rey has none of this. Girl Powah out of the box. With scowling.

As a general aside: I'd reckon if Rey was a male character he'd be roasted alive by the critics for this. Then again this trope has become common in the last decade or so. The female character that just is the hero there to kick arse who can do no wrong, has few doubts, rarely fails with little arc or internal struggle going on as to why they are this way. And for my money it does no service to women characters in popular culture at all. It's too easy, makes them one dimensional and comes across more like a lazy and cynical marketing exercise. At least she's not wearing a spray on catsuit, with heaving, so there's that.

Ryaller

branie2 wrote: »

Just a thought on my part

First time for everything, I suppose.

Mokuba

Mokuba wrote: »

I personally can't see how you could possibly equate the undeniably risk averse Superhero genre with this movie which was so completely brave in choices it took and decisions it made. I really struggle to see how anybody could possibly see the two in the same light. Even if you come down on the side of their risks not working. At least Johnson made them.

Surely if they were trying to replicate the Superhero Genres success they would have made a much safer movie?

Sorry which choices were brave?

Shakey_jake

I kind off got the feeling that some if the supposed humorous dialogue wasn't actually intended to be as funny as it apparently came across!

I certainly wasn't laughing at every supposed gag, dunno maybe it's just me!?

Anyone pick up on the Japanese Samurai vibe in some scenes

Thought it was great btw hammy acting n'all

I look forward to seeing it again

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry which choices were brave?

Considering the fan base on this franchise, any deviation is brave/stupid. (Whatever way you interpret it)

Luke’s roll in particular was not a safe story to tell. Even the actor playing him “fundamentally disagreed with everything they were doing”. That’s a huge risk.

The Rey/Kylo interactions were adding a force element that has divided opinion.

There was other force elements that could also be seen as controversial.

anybody can be at one with force, even nobodies

They were spending 200mil on a movie, after spending 4billion for the rights to make the movies , and they had prob committed 1bil more to future movies. I think that’s a fairly decent risk you have already taken so no taking any risks with any movies would make financial sense. There was no guarantee that TFA was going to reignite the franchise!

Rogue one was a huge risk, revisiting the back story to link up with the sacred originals?!!! No rolling story at the start? Killing off every character? They actually enhanced the originals by plugging a plot hole (why was there such a weakness on the death star?)

You don’t have to like the direction being taken to see that they aren’t just playing it by the numbers like marvel.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

Considering the fan base on this franchise, any deviation is brave/stupid. (Whatever way you interpret it)

Luke’s roll in particular was not a safe story to tell. Even the actor playing him “fundamentally disagreed with everything they were doing”. That’s a huge risk.

The Rey/Kylo interactions were adding a force element that has divided opinion.

There was other force elements that could also be seen as controversial.

anybody can be at one with force, even nobodies

When you are spending 200mil on a movie, after spending 4billion for the rights to make the movies , I think that’s a fairly decent risk you have already taken. There was no guarantee that TFA was going to reignite the franchise!

Why did Mark Hamill disagree with all that? I don't really see what's so outrageous. I suppose Luke's story was a bit out of the ordinary. Him almost killing Kylo and being a "bad" guy is different.

Absolutely nothing brave about the Rey/Kylo interactions imo.

I thought the throne room fight was ultimately very safe. They could have done so much more. It had so much potential. A nothing character died in Snoke. Everything went back to normal 5 minutes later.

OU812

I was angry after seeing this last night.

The “buddy” chat between Finn & Poe shouldn’t have been there.

The comedy shouldn’t have been there.

Space superman Leah shouldn’t have been there.

The stupid bb8 controlling the walker shouldn’t have been there.

The whole sequence with the casino and that city shouldn’t have been there.

I eagerly wait the fan edit that cuts these out. That’s the movie they should have released.