Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

Why did Mark Hamill disagree with all that? I don't really see what's so outrageous. I suppose Luke's story was a bit out of the ordinary. Him almost killing Kylo and being a "bad" guy is different.

Absolutely nothing brave about the Rey/Kylo interactions imo.

I thought the throne room fight was ultimately very safe. They could have done so much more. It had so much potential. A nothing character died in Snoke. Everything went back to normal 5 minutes later.

I disagree. The divided nature of discussion here and elsewhere Says it all.

And yes, they took the central character of the originals and made radical character adjustments that even the actor( who is heavily invested in the character) playing him disagreed with. That’s a risk in anybody’s book.

Making any force alteration is a risk after the reaction to Qui Gon and medicloriants. I mean it was a 30 second dialogue about the force and people lost their sh*# about it.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

Considering the fan base on this franchise, any deviation is brave/stupid. (Whatever way you interpret it)

Luke’s roll in particular was not a safe story to tell. Even the actor playing him “fundamentally disagreed with everything they were doing”. That’s a huge risk.

The Rey/Kylo interactions were adding a force element that has divided opinion.

There was other force elements that could also be seen as controversial.

anybody can be at one with force, even nobodies

They were spending 200mil on a movie, after spending 4billion for the rights to make the movies , and they had prob committed 1bil more to future movies. I think that’s a fairly decent risk you have already taken so no taking any risks with any movies would make financial sense. There was no guarantee that TFA was going to reignite the franchise!

Rogue one was a huge risk, revisiting the back story to link up with the sacred originals?!!! No rolling story at the start? Killing off every character? They actually enhanced the originals by plugging a plot hole (why was there such a weakness on the death star?)

You don’t have to like the direction being taken to see that they aren’t just playing it by the numbers like marvel.

If the benchmark we are comparing to is Marvel and all that garbage, then yes its incredibly brave but Marvel doesn't even enter the equation for me

derfderf

I think they shot themselves in the foot with this one. Kylo's development is by far the highlight of the story, but he can't be the ultimate villain.
A guy with Jedi training, and trained by a dark lord (or whatever the hell Snoke was) losing to Rey on the day she discovers her powers. Even Finn gave him some trouble.
I remember watching the original trilogy wondering how could Luke even stop Vader, never mind the Sideous. That tension is gone.

AnneFrank

Yes great movie, way better than tfa, looking forward to seeing it at home aswell, would recommend to anyone, don't mind the negative nancys

irishthump

david75 wrote: »

ewok rotj callback upgrade
and the bit with the guards was great when he gets discovered having disabled them that was cool.


still nobody hating on the porgs though..they were used well

ROTJ? I’m sorry, but NO. Don’t even compare the two.

You saw the Ewoks and Chewie get onboard the AT-ST in a semi plausible way.
BB8 turning into a badass battlebot was cringe inducing.
Wow! I remember when Lucas was absolutely slated for giving R2 a set of jet engines in AOTC yet this is ok? People really have short memories.....

Oh, and nobody is complaining about the Porgs because they are buried under far worse ****e!

pumpkin4life

Why do I keep giving these people my money?



Awful film.

Saruhashi

derfderf wrote: »

I think they shot themselves in the foot with this one. Kylo's development is by far the highlight of the story, but he can't be the ultimate villain.
A guy with Jedi training, and trained by a dark lord (or whatever the hell Snoke was) losing to Rey on the day she discovers her powers. Even Finn gave him some trouble.
I remember watching the original trilogy wondering how could Luke even stop Vader, never mind the Sideous. That tension is gone.

I'm surprised that more people don't pick up on this.

Given that this is a trilogy I would have expected Rey to have serious trouble overcoming Kylo Ren and would have expected him to pick up a few victories in the first 2 films. Instead he seems weak.

General Hux and Snoke suffer from the same problem.

They are the villains of a story that is intended to cover 3 movies running from 6 to 8 hours in total and they just don't bring any kind of threat to the story.

So far they are written like Megatron or Skeletor or Cobra Commander in that they have a mad scheme for each episode but ultimately are easily beaten and mocked by the hero characters.

In those kids cartroons from back in the day though they would have a two-parter once in a while and the tone would change to presenting the baddies as a real threat for those.

If this is one of the brave or bold risks this new movie has supposedly taken then I have to say it's a risk that hasn't paid off.

In ESB, Vader was set up as basically unbeatable and almost without weakness. Copying this in the new trilogy could be seen as playing it safe but there's not really that many alternatives.

As it stands Episode IX is unlikely to give the bad guys the win. That wouldn't be a satisfying conclusion. Unfortunately, by writing the first order and kylo as they have in episode 2 of 3, the whole trilogy is just a whitewash victory for the good guys.

Even the loss of Han was more of a loss for the audience than it was for the characters in the movie.

johnny_ultimate

derfderf wrote: »

A guy with Jedi training, and trained by a dark lord (or whatever the hell Snoke was) losing to Rey on the day she discovers her powers. Even Finn gave him some trouble.

Kylo happened to be seriously injured at the time, and also in a state of emotional turmoil & blind rage

I remember watching the original trilogy wondering how could Luke even stop Vader, never mind the Sideous. That tension is gone.

Surely the films just trying to constantly 'one up' the big bad would be a lazy, dull creative choice? Instead we've been given a 'villain' with depth - by Star Wars standards, I hasten to stress - and an emotional complexity that looks set to give the entire trilogy its core narrative backbone. He's a fascinating, conflicted character - again, Star Wars standards - and Driver's performance is easily among the strongest the franchise has offered. For me, Kylo Ren is a very welcome departure from Darths Vader and Sidious, and has allowed the films - this one in particular - to explore more shades of grey when it comes to 'light vs dark' than we've seen in Star Wars before.

server down

irishthump wrote: »

ROTJ? I’m sorry, but NO. Don’t even compare the two.

You saw the Ewoks and Chewie get onboard the AT-ST in a semi plausible way.
BB8 turning into a badass battlebot was cringe inducing.
Wow! I remember when Lucas was absolutely slated for giving R2 a set of jet engines in AOTC yet this is ok? People really have short memories.....

Oh, and nobody is complaining about the Porgs because they are buried under far worse ****e!

You have no idea of the capabilities of a robot in a galaxy far far away and a long time ago.

thegreengoblin

derfderf wrote: »

I think they shot themselves in the foot with this one. Kylo's development is by far the highlight of the story, but he can't be the ultimate villain.
A guy with Jedi training, and trained by a dark lord (or whatever the hell Snoke was) losing to Rey on the day she discovers her powers. Even Finn gave him some trouble.
I remember watching the original trilogy wondering how could Luke even stop Vader, never mind the Sideous. That tension is gone.

But Snoke actually brought this up when he was having a go at Kylo in their first scene together. He said that when Kylo killed his father it left him hesitant, weak and vulnerable...which allowed Rey to at least match him. I still find it a bit too much to believe but they did raise that point in TLJ.

SteM

irishthump wrote: »

ROTJ? I’m sorry, but NO. Don’t even compare the two.

You saw the Ewoks and Chewie get onboard the AT-ST in a semi plausible way.
BB8 turning into a badass battlebot was cringe inducing.
Wow! I remember when Lucas was absolutely slated for giving R2 a set of jet engines in AOTC yet this is ok? People really have short memories.....

Oh, and nobody is complaining about the Porgs because they are buried under far worse ****e!

You've just reminded me that chewie does the Tarzan call when he swings on. Now that's a cringy scene, as bad as anything in the new movie imo.

Peatys

Hard to know how much of my opinion of this film is down to my childhood obsession with the original trilogy..
Random thoughts,

Hammill and Fisher can't act. Just look at their movies in the last 10 years.

Remember the Simpsons where they went to the petting zoo, and the lambs kept getting cuter? Remembering this, the porgs dialling up the cuteness each time on screen (eyes getting bigger, bottom lip quivering) kept taking me out of the film.

There were excellent scenes (kylo tricking snoke with the saber) and genuine laugh out loud moments..

No idea/10.

thegreengoblin

SteM wrote: »

You've just reminded me that chewie does the Tarzan call when he swings on. Now that's a cringy scene, as bad as anything in the new movie imo.

Imagine if the internet had been around in May 1983. An army of screwball teddy bears playing a critical part in defeating Palpatine's best troops? (That's when they weren't busy knocking themselves out with their own weapons). Droids screaming out in pain because they were being tortured? A half-blind Han Solo hilariously accidentally sending the coolest bounty hunter in the universe into the Sarlaac's mouth followed by a massive burp?

Sure no one would have complained about any of that!

thegreengoblin

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Imagine if the internet had been around in May 1983. An army of screwball teddy bears playing a critical part in defeating Palpatine's best troops? (That's when they weren't busy knocking themselves out with their own weapons). Droids screaming out in pain because they were being tortured? A half-blind Han Solo hilariously sending the coolest bounty hunter in the universe into the Sarlaac's mouth followed by a massive burp?

Sure no one would have complained about any of that!

Pretty sure that was a common complaint about the ewoks

david75

This is a cool read but especially if you’re havin trouble with it or like me certain decisions made in it.
https://t.co/SbTDq3ks88?amp=1

thegreengoblin

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty sure that was a common complaint about the ewoks

That's my point. Because it was part of the classic trilogy ROTJ generally gets an easy ride. If that was the film that was released this week it would be getting shot down in flames.

Peatys

thegreengoblin wrote: »

That's my point. Because it was part of the classic trilogy ROTJ generally gets an easy ride. If that was the film that was released this week it would be getting shot down in flames.

No they don't. Ewoks were always lashed as a cynical marketing ploy.

Saruhashi

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Imagine if the internet had been around in May 1983. An army of screwball teddy bears playing a critical part in defeating Palpatine's best troops? (That's when they weren't busy knocking themselves out with their own weapons). Droids screaming out in pain because they were being tortured? A half-blind Han Solo hilariously accidentally sending the coolest bounty hunter in the universe into the Sarlaac's mouth followed by a massive burp?

Sure no one would have complained about any of that!

So The Last Jedi is better or worse than Return of the Jedi in those aspects?

I think I'm noticing a trend where criticism of any new Star Wars movie is met with some variation of "well the originals were crap too".

As if you have to either love the originals AND the newest one or just accept that absolutely all of them are rubbish.

You thought a lot of the stuff in the new Star Wars was rubbish, did you? Well what about this laundry list of dumb stuff in the originals!?

People do this to defend the prequels too.

I loved the originals but I hate Jar Jar Binks...

What about the Ewoks!? The Ewoks were just as bad!
Imagine if there was an internet when people saw the Ewoks!
Empire Strikes Back got bad reviews when it came out!

So just like in 1999, 2002 and 2005 the go to defense of the new movie is to attack the old movies.

Only a total hypocrite would like the OT and dislike the new ones, right?

derfderf

thegreengoblin wrote: »

But Snoke actually brought this up when he was having a go at Kylo in their first scene together. He said that when Kylo killed his father it left him hesitant, weak and vulnerable...which allowed Rey to at least match him. I still find it a bit too much to believe but they did raise that point in TLJ.

Vader was apparently the most powerful force user ever. Luke eventually defeated him.
Kylo defeats Luke, or at least knocks him out long enough to destroy the temple and kill the other students.
Luke says Kylo's power didn't scare him enough when he first saw it.
All great build up for the new villian, but he shouldn't be having any trouble with an untrained Rey. She blocked his mind reading with no training before Han died.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

This is a cool read but especially if you’re havin trouble with it or like me certain decisions made in it.
https://t.co/SbTDq3ks88?amp=1

Yeah, some guy smelling his own farts. Brilliant.

Jesus, it's almost as bad as Star Wars Ring Theory. :pac:

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

Sad Professor

Kylo isn't a villain. He's an anti-hero. This was made pretty clear in TFA. A movie doesn't need a villain, just conflict.

uck51js9zml2yt

Slightly off track but TFA digital copy plus bonus shots available to buy from Amazon UK for £4.99 You need to use your PM/PW address as billing address

Anyway back to slating TLJ

Grayditch

I loved it. I normally don't give movies a pass for cheap laughs, loose character advancement and/or corner cutting, but there was so much to love about this. On par with Rogue One for fourth best in the franchise.

thegreengoblin

Saruhashi wrote: »

So The Last Jedi is better or worse than Return of the Jedi in those aspects?

I think I'm noticing a trend where criticism of any new Star Wars movie is met with some variation of "well the originals were crap too".

As if you have to either love the originals AND the newest one or just accept that absolutely all of them are rubbish.

You thought a lot of the stuff in the new Star Wars was rubbish, did you? Well what about this laundry list of dumb stuff in the originals!?

People do this to defend the prequels too.

I loved the originals but I hate Jar Jar Binks...

What about the Ewoks!? The Ewoks were just as bad!
Imagine if there was an internet when people saw the Ewoks!
Empire Strikes Back got bad reviews when it came out!

So just like in 1999, 2002 and 2005 the go to defense of the new movie is to attack the old movies.

Only a total hypocrite would like the OT and dislike the new ones, right?

You're missing my point. I'm referring to a particular aspect of the films i.e. the humour. And I'm simply pointing out that a lot of people can't seem to handle it or accept it in TLJ when it's been knocking around in SW films for years, particularly since ROTJ.

And I'm not even attacking ROTJ here. I couldn't ever do that. I have so many magical memories from that time. I was 10 when it came out, Ewoks didn't bother me. And I wasn't going to start pretending they suddenly bothered me when I turned 30 or 40. But the reality is if ROTJ was released today it would be loved and hated in equal measure.

I'm not accusing anyone of being a hypocrite. My first post about this film was that I can totally understand why some people would hate it. And I still do. If you don't like then you have a valid reason and that's fair enough.

The prequels thing is different in my opinion. They were just badly executed. Humour or not, nothing could save those films.

johnny_ultimate

Saruhashi wrote: »

Yeah, some guy smelling his own farts. Brilliant.

Jesus, it's almost as bad as Star Wars Ring Theory. :pac:

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

In what sense? The original article linked seems like a perfectly reasonable, unpretentious and straightforward analysis of the film's most basic themes? I mean, every thing the writer points out is right there, explicitly, in the film.

david75

The dynamic with Rey and Ben is interesting. I think he’s being totally honest and talking to her as Ben without the pretence of kylo, he’s not hiding behind the mask. The scene where he’s topless kind of is a visual cue for that. They seem to be two halves of a whole and they both almost come to realise that but he ultimately wants to dominate in the end whereas she wants to be his redemption.
They neither of them are hardest in light v dark roles. He’s flirting with the light and tempted at a few points and shes definitely about to go dark at several points, most notably when she attacks Luke. So I’m not really sure the criticism that she’s not given much to do or is one dimensional is really fair.

I reckon Bens lying to her on the parents thing in order to weaken her in that moment and try and knock her confidence but he’s going about it the wrong way. It’s exactly the abusive treatment he’s gotten from Snoke.

If 9 truly is the final episode of the saga I can’t see JJ not being able to give her a scene where she finds out who her parents truly were. It’s just too much of an almost bittersweet happy ending tear inducing moment to resist including.

thegreengoblin

Sad Professor wrote: »

Kylo isn't a villain. He's an anti-hero. This was made pretty clear in TFA. A movie doesn't need a villain, just conflict.

Spot on. Every time you see him on screen you wonder what he's thinking, what he's feeling. What is he going to do next and why is he going to do that? He's a brilliant character.

david75

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Spot on. Every time you see him on screen you wonder what he's thinking, what he's feeling. What is he going to do next and why is he going to do that? He's a brilliant character.

Agreed. And it would be boring if he was just Vader redux. There’s nothin really interesting about Vader in ANH/ESB. One dimensional pure evil.

Kylo is far more developed and far more interesting because of his conflict and struggles. And in TLJ he steals the show with that.

johnny_ultimate

I really like this take on the film: https://www.avclub.com/part-kurosawa-part-wile-e-coyote-the-last-jedi-boldl-1821291545

One thing that threatens to get lost in the back-and-forth over the film's story choices and individual moments is how Johnson has made probably the most cinematically ambitious entry the series has seen. He manages to take various inspirations and homages (as one observant poster pointed out earlier, the initial casino establishing shot appears to be a direct nod to Wings, and as alluded to in the article above there's clear inspirations from a different era of Japanese cinema than Lucas embraced) and casually mixes them with his own ideas. He definitely IMO manages to create one of the most visually fetching, cine-literate blockbusters of recent times.

Osmosis Jones

It's not the 80s anymore, "big scary evil man who's evil because they say he is" doesn't really work now. Vader's incredible, but if someone were to write a character like him now it'd get slated for being too one dimensional. Just look at the majority of the Marvel movie villains.

Drumpot wrote: »

I agree and I loved it. But I get the impression you mean it from a "this movie wasn't great, but Driver was" perspective ?!

Nah I just think Adam Driver is that great! TLJ definitely has problems but I don't think they're nearly as big as some people do.

I understand people not wanting too many jokes in the movie, but I feel like after the first 40 minutes or so the jokes stopped anyway.

My only problems with the movie are

the casino scenes (it doesn't look like Star Wars, it looks like a casino on Earth with some weird creatures)

The Leia flying scene, I understand how it could look good in a script, "Leia drifting out in space and is willed back onto the ship by the force" but it just looked so bad, like she was on strings.

Those are my only two real complaints, there are far more things in the movie that I loved.

The Force Skype calls between Rey and Kylo

The fact that we got to see a lightsaber duo fight people and it didn't look awful like the prequels

Rey being a nobody, not the daughter of some legend like everyone thought.

Kylo screaming at his men to keep shooting at Luke.

The silent explosion scene when the Admiral kamikazes the Firs Order ship.

Literally everything Luke did.

Overall this movie's around an 8/10 for me, though I will have to see it a second time at least.