Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Vertigo100

nix wrote: »

I seen it again tonight, i was booked into tonights Imax showing weeks ago and the bro dragged me to the one on thursday.

ANYWAY, knowing what was coming i enjoyed the movie a whole lot more on the second viewing, I just done an old jedi mind trick to block out the scenes i found horrific and liked it a whole lot more, there is a fantastic movie in there, its just a shame there is a load of ****e mixed in with it :rolleyes:

What i loved on the second viewing

and only noticed it because i knew what was happening, when Luke and Kylo are facing off and Lukes dodging him, the camera focuses on their footwork alot, Kylo sliding around leaving traces of red through the salt as he moved, and Luke was leaving nothing, no footprints. So its kinda dribbled to you that hes not really there before the actual reveal, which i found quite impressive tbh..

It was obvious he wasn’t there when his lightsaber was blue. It had been destroyed in the throne room already.

Grayditch

I get what they were going for with Domnhall Gleeson's character but it comes off as cheaply as a budget panto bad guy.

brevity

faceman wrote: »

Incidentally the biggest shock for me in this film was the death of

Admiral Ackbar

. We didn’t see it happen and we just get told it.

Why Laura Dern's character needed to be there is puzzling to me.

py2006

good point about luke's blue lightsaber

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erx5fEMFMJk

Tony EH

Grayditch wrote: »

That and there are Asian people and some of them are actors.

Hardy fucking har. :rolleyes:

The point is, her entire character was utterly pointless.

Turtyturd

brevity wrote: »

Why Laura Dern's character needed to be there is puzzling to me.

Was strange alright and very strangely played. I expected

some kind of betrayal from her.

TerrorFirmer

Jayesdiem wrote: »

What's with the universally good media reviews? They don't seem to reflect the range of views in here at all. I looked forward to the movie based on it receiving very good reviews and avoided this thread to avoid spoilers. Some here liked the movie, some didn't. The media universally liked it though. Plinkett's review is badly needed to restore balance, no pun intended.

Because it is quite a good film in isolation, it's just a ropey Star Wars film in spots. I've already given my thoughts a few pages back (and in summary, I very much enjoyed it despite some serious issues) so I'm not going to revisit them, but I think a lot of the serious issues understandably primarily exist for fans of the franchise.

I saw it with other people who are not really that into Star Wars, they'll watch the films but don't particularly care for any of them - and they all absolutely loved it.

I'm not saying that some, even many, casual viewers won't identify some issues - but rather that on the whole, for a large demography, it is a very solid film with tremendous entertainment value.

I personally very much enjoyed the movie despite serious issues (my detailed thoughts here), but I can readily state that if I was not a Star Wars fan, I could see myself as considering it almost flawless entertainment.

Incidentally I felt the same about TFA when that was released.

It was the same with the prequels. They stunk as actual Star Wars films - and compared to what was reasonably expected of them - but critical reception was a hell of a lot warmer than fan reception was (notwithstanding that the prequels of course were hugely inferior films in terms of narrative, scripting, etc)

Really, a huge amount of the criticism (from myself included) boils down to the problems with the film largely having major tonal inconsistencies with virtually the entirety of the film franchise that came before it. That doesn't really bother casual viewers, most critics, or to a lesser extent, more casual fans or critically, a new generation of fans who aren't particularly taken with the OT.

Massive spoiler below regarding Rey's parents, even if you have seen the film:

Apparently at a Q and A post showing Rian Johnson heavily implied that Rey's 'nobody' heritage was indeed misdirection by Kylo Ren and is not entirely accurate.

johnpatrick81

^^also good points about the slowest chase in cinematic history.

I didn’t buy into that or the end assault on the mine

Even Rey clearing the rocks, sure Chewie coulda done that with 1 blast from the Falcon.

brevity

Turtyturd wrote: »

Was strange alright and very strangely played. I expected

some kind of betrayal from her.

Yea me too. It was just another thing that took me out of the movie.

Also, the CGI on the cliff face when Luke brought Ray up to that rock was atrocious. How they left that scene in is beyond me.

Tony EH

faceman wrote: »

Someone earlier in the thread and was giving out the depiction of Yoda in this being to jokey. Rewatch his scenes in Empire, it’s the same Yoda.

Except it's not.

Yoda was playing a kook to test Luke on Dagobah. He wanted to see how petulant he was. To see if he had the required patience to actually become a propper Jedi.

When Luke loses his temper and says that they were "wasting time", Yoda dropped the act and revealed his true nature as a serious Jedi master.

Wibbs

What I said earlier explains some aspects. And why would they deconstruct the mythos of the saga in plain sight? A few reasons; the main one being out with the old and expensive faves and in with the new and cheaper and more eager ones and the option to take the saga to new places and characters.

Gbear wrote: »

There's a few common beats, like with BB8, who works better than I thought he would in both films, but I'm pretty cynical about these kinds of things at this point and I thought nearly everything landed.

He's the new R2D2. Lucas regularly said that the story revolved around 3PO and R2, that they were the common thread throughout. IIRC its based on an old Japanese samurai flic that follows the fortunes of a family through ups and downs, but the two servants are both the common thread and oft comic relief.

Now look at the Farce Awakens and the Lost Jedi. 3PO figures but rarely and R2 is barely in either. Can't confuse the toy sales of BB8.

faceman wrote: »

There are none! Chewie is just a cameo character.

Again see above. Clear the decks. Unless Chewie merchandise starts selling more I suppose. These aren't plot points, they're marketing ones and pretty obvious ones with it.

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

Hmmm, I liked it, but didn’t feel the buzz I got from TFA.

I'd reckon much of that buzz was the Abrams nostalgia near scene for scene remake/retcon of the very first Star Wars.

I still think Rey’s parents are key, agreed with David75 that Kylo was lying to weaken her. Her being a natural descendent of the force is the only thing for me that explains her abilities. Even Luke says that Ben is the only one who is as natural as her with the powers. Surely not twins?!?

Likely absolutely nothing, but it has occurred to me that she and Ben are the only Jedi we've ever seen with English accents?

Even then it doesn't explain her Superwoman abilities. Luke was the son of the strongest Jedi ever and took ages to master his natural abilities(and could barely move a couple of rocks and couldn't get his X wing outa the swamp), Kenobi needed years of training and still got it wrong at times. Rey is full force master out of the box, who astonishes Luke and can move mountains of rocks and force fight a trained(in both sides) Ren.

I didn’t mind Kylo getting the better of Snoke, but to then struggle against the red troopers?!? I wanted him to vaporize them. Cool fight yes, made sense after he outsmarted and outpowered the mighty Snoke? Nah.

Yeah again made little sense. In every single encounter in the saga between a force user and an ordinary person the latter gets dispatched in double quick time.

In these two flics that's all very confused and it has gone from a natural talent that needs to be trained and developed(like any skill) and from a young age(Yoda thinks Anakin even though he's a child is too old to start and Luke really too old and not the only hope) to something that just the power of self belief(or boobs) makes happen.

On that boobs score I have noted a few online suggesting that it's just clumsy girl power going on, but for my money it's way worse than that. It's awful because it shortchanges female characters and makes their characters lesser, more one dimensional. No struggle, no hardship, no learning of skills, no journey, just instant demigod status with no reason behind it.

Like I said if in Empire Luke had shown up to Yoda and astonished him with his powers and could best him and get preachy with him and then could take on and seriously inconvenience Da Vader, just cos, it would have been rightfully laughed outa the cinema, but that's how Rey is written. That wouldn't have been accepted even in ancient Greek drama. Even their "gods" regularly screwed up, because unlike most gods the Greek ones were very human and realistic.

Maybe that's a wider reflection of society though? That we're impatient, we want everything to happen now, in the moment, no hero's journey, no years of work, failure, practice and progress, just a bite from a radioactive spider or a shot of gamma rays or self belief, or the force and you're an instant superhero? That kinda thinking used to be more the preserve of children's imaginings(and why superhero comics were/are so popular in that segment), but not in even half serious drama. And IMHO it's really bad for drama, but it's near a given in the superhero flic genre* and the new current Star Wars is reflecting that. Which I suppose popular cultural output does. There may be a film studies thesis in that.





*there's some hope though and that's in TV land. Compare for example Marvel on the big screen. All bombast and flash bangs and instant demigods, whereas look at Marvel on say Netflix with Luke Cage, Daredevil, Jessica Jones(that's how you write a 3 dimensional woman character), the Punisher. They're real people with a special talent who have to work through it and at it, before they even approach their potential and even then they have foibles and failures.

TerrorFirmer

Turtyturd wrote: »

Was strange alright and very strangely played. I expected

some kind of betrayal from her.

I liked it....but only after I'd had time to think about it.

It, along with other significant developments like

Snoke

, create a good sense of uncertainty and amazement throughout that really buck the traditional storytelling that's been the core of Star Wars for so long.

I think it ties in wonderfully with DJ's offering that 'you win some, you lose some' and the overall theme of '50 shades of grey' versus the black and white and traditional story telling that has been a staple of the franchise thus far.

George Lucas attempted the 'grey' in Revenge of The Sith and made an absolute shambles of it - I am confident that he's watching The Last Jedi and seeing precisely in Kylo Ren what he intended with Anakin Skywalker.

Someone mentioned a few pages back about needing to 'digest' the film....and while that may sound like pretentious nonsense to some, I really do agree with it, there's so much to this movie versus TFA.

Still have major issues with it mind, doesn't get a free pass on the screw ups.

TerrorFirmer

Wibbs wrote: »

Likely absolutely nothing, but it has occurred to me that she and Ben are the only Jedi we've ever seen with English accents?

One thing that is notably absent from a lot of discussion is that in her Force Vision in TFA we clearly hear Obi-Wan say 'Rey'.

What does it mean? I'm quite afraid that Ep9 won't tie up so many threads left hanging by JJ Abrams in TFA that were not addressed by Johnson in TLJ.

Part of me wants to believe there simply wasn't space and these plot elements have been merely postponed until the conclusion; but a large part of me is worried that they'll not be resurrected again at all.

Tony EH

Jayesdiem wrote: »

What's with the universally good media reviews? They don't seem to reflect the range of views in here at all. I looked forward to the movie based on it receiving very good reviews and avoided this thread to avoid spoilers. Some here liked the movie, some didn't. The media universally liked it though. Plinkett's review is badly needed to restore balance, no pun intended.

Well RLM actually liked 'The Force Awakens' and bizarrely disliked 'Rogue One' which was the closest thing we got to 'Star Wars' since 1983 . So, you never know.

On critics reviews, there is an extremely strange vein of positivity running through them. But, it's difficult to understand. If the film hadn't a Star Wars label attached, I think the reviews might have not been of that conformity.

I mean it really is a sum of its parts and definitely not a satisfying whole.

But I haven't read every single critic's review, so, they may all be 3/5's or 6/10's for all I know.

Tony EH

brevity wrote: »

Why Laura Dern's character needed to be there is puzzling to me.

Yeh, it was another odd and unnecessary character.

Also, why did she hide the escape to Krait plan from Poe, yet seeming informed the rest of the entire crew?

Just terrible writing.

Gbear

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

I still think Rey’s parents are key, agreed with David75 that Kylo was lying to weaken her. Her being a natural descendent of the force is the only thing for me that explains her abilities. Even Luke says that Ben is the only one who is as natural as her with the powers. Surely not twins?!?

I didn't really get the point of her descent into the hole of evil dark seaweed at the time but with hindsight that scene and more broadly her character development would suggest that you're wrong.

She was looking for her partents in that cave. All she saw was herself. Now either she's like Fry from Futurama and did "the nasty in the pasty", or it was revealing that just like Kylo Ren said, her past doesn't matter, her parents don't matter, she doesn't have to find her place in all this and that she has to forge her own past. What Kylo Ren said about letting the past die was a bit murdery for her, but the idea was correct.

Now all that could be true, and she could also have important parents,
but I don't see the point. Also, who would they be that matter at this stage?
There's nobody left and I don't see anything being added by her being Lando's niece or Palpatine's secret grandaughter.

Tony EH

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I personally very much enjoyed the movie despite serious issues (my detailed thoughts here), but I can readily state that if I was not a Star Wars fan, I could see myself as considering it almost flawless entertainment.

Flawless it certainly isn't, fan glasses on or off.

As a film, in and of itself, it suffers from some real serious problems with pacing, tonal jarring (with itself and not just the franchise), dodgy CGI decisions, and entire characters and situations that are completely superfluous to the plot.

There's entertainment in there for sure and parts of the film are quite good, but it's a wild film and not in a good way. There just isn't enough good to offset the bad.

The_Valeyard

I enjoyed it for the most part

Turtyturd

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I liked it....but only after I'd had time to think about it.

I didn’t dislike it. I was just waiting for the moment where

she turned on them. Even up to the end where she stays behind alone I was waiting for it.

Someone mentioned a few pages back about needing to 'digest' the film....and while that may sound like pretentious nonsense to some, I really do agree with it, there's so much to this movie versus TFA.

Still have major issues with it mind, doesn't get a free pass on the screw ups.

Would definitely agree with this. The Force Awakens was enjoyable but I had no inclination to go back and watch it again. Rogue one I wanted to watch again because it was so good, this I want to watch again because there seemed to be so much in it that it needs another watch (it was also very good).

Thinking back one thing that annoyed me was that the opening crawl

makes it seem like so much has happened, with the demise of the republic, yet the film picks up directly from the end of TFA. Did the republic just pack it in after the Starkiller base was fired?

johnpatrick81

Gbear wrote: »

Now all that could be true, and she could also have important parents,
but I don't see the point. Also, who would they be that matter at this stage?
There's nobody left and I don't see anything being added by her being Lando's niece or Palpatine's secret grandaughter.[/SPOILER]

As to the point, it explains the biggest hole in TFA and TLJ, Rey’s incredible powers. I don’t think it was by accident that Luke highlighted them. I’m almost sure it will be further explained in IX.

As to who, I actually see the twin thing working. There is a lot online to back it up too. Han and Leia coulda sacrificed her to let her lead a “normal” life, or maybe perhaps knew all along it was her but are keeping her distant to protect her and let her find the force naturally, with less chance of being corrupted.

faceman

Tony EH wrote: »

Yeh, it was another odd and unnecessary character.

Also, why did she hide the escape to Krait plan from Poe, yet seeming informed the rest of the entire crew?

Just terrible writing.

My theory on her and many of the new characters is it’s an effort by Hollywood to create deeper female characters. Dameron is a very 2 dimensional character, reflecting the role women have played in movies for years. I liked Laura Dern’a character. An anti hero and female. It didn’t feel like a female character for the sake of it to me. She reflected what I would expect of a real life rebellion would look like more so than a nice-as-pie princess ever would to be fair.

TerrorFirmer

Turtyturd wrote: »

Thinking back one thing that annoyed me was that the opening crawl

makes it seem like so much has happened, with the demise of the republic, yet the film picks up directly from the end of TFA. Did the republic just pack it in after the Starkiller base was fired?

I think in TFA they just destroyed the central planets of the Republic on which the Government was based, presumably after that most other systems that would have been Republic aligned just fell in line to avoid destruction or an unwinnable/costly war.

It's not explained, exactly, and TFA did a really bad job of establishing the political situation in the Galaxy 30 years after ROTJ.... but I don't think it really needs much exposition by the point of TLJ.

Though I'd be curious as to what system was actually destroyed in TFA - was Coruscant, traditional seat of Government for the Republic/Empire, destroyed?

Gbear

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

As to the point, it explains the biggest hole in TFA and TLJ, Rey’s incredible powers. I don’t think it was by accident that Luke highlighted them. I’m almost sure it will be further explained in IX.

As to who, I actually see the twin thing working. There is a lot online to back it up too. Han and Leia coulda sacrificed her to let her lead a “normal” life, or maybe perhaps knew all along it was her but are keeping her distant to protect her and let her find the force naturally, with less chance of being corrupted.

I don't think the twin thing would work at this point.
Giving her a normal life? Of an indentured servant on a ****hole like Jakku?
That's not really in Leia's character IMO, either in letting her go to protect her or in leaving her to such privation.

Why didn't anyone say anything? Leia? Han? Luke?

I really don't buy it.

They've left just enough wiggle room to retcon it but at this point it'd clash so strongly with their characters, the themes of this film and with the reality of the universe that doing so would be a mistake, IMO.

It would gain nothing, other than an excuse to placate mechanistic desires about the realisim of Reys magic telekenesis powers, and it'd waste all the character development both Rey and Kylo Ren have had.

Snoke pretty much explictly came out and said what the deal with her was.

She was a function of balance in the force, with the power of Kylo Ren being matched by a power of the light.
He had thought it would be Luke, but when he saw her, he realised that she was it.

Power in the force was something nebulous in the OT. They only started ****ing around with it in the Prequels where they tried to harden the sci-fi, but a lot of notions have been binned from that era.

We know Rey was already a martial artist from her time on Jakku, so she had a grounding in fighting, and she tells us that she's been practicing Luke's training regime.
To add to that, we're repeatedly told that she's ludicrously powerful but raw.

She beat Kylo Ren in TFA because he'd just been shot and his resolve was wavering after killing his dad, weakening his link to the force.

Whether she could have done it in this film is another matter.
The grip they both had on the lightsaber in the throne room, ripping it apart, was a function of that raw strength. It doesn't mean they're necessarily evenly matched in more general terms.

Also, Kylo Ren nearly solod (haha) 3 of the royal guards whereas Rey struggled with 1. I think he killed the majority.

Snoke's interference allowed them to talk face to face, but it was a 1v1, invisible to everyone else.

What Luke did shows the depth of strength that neither of them have even remotely come close to demonstrating. He did, on his own, what 3 strong force users could only make work for 2 people, but it was also an illusion of him rather than a clear link and he was projecting it to an entire army.

Yes, it killed him, but it puts the powers of Kylo Ren and Rey into perspective none the less.

david75

We get Rey explained in TLJ in a great way. Snoke says darkness rises and the light to meet it.
Luke says he’s only seen this raw power once before in Ben.
So the force balances itself.

We as fans worked ourselves up into head canon wishing she has to be Luke’s daughter or obi wans granddaughter.

The Jedi can’t have families or kids. Every Jedi wasn’t born of jedi parents. It doesn’t work like that.
The force manisfests /awakens in her as a response to kylo.

Kylo can senses her one sore spot is she doesn’t know who her parents are and senses her abandonment issues so hits that spot hard.
The cave sequence where she ends up simply facing herself, it’s the same vision in the cave Luke has on dagobah. He sees Vader cuts him down and ends up seeing himself in the helmet.

Yoda has the same vision where he goes on a force vision and ends up facing himself in the end (this was in clone wars).

Johnson has said Kylo isn’t being entirely truthful with her so I’d say she will find out in 9. It’s just too juicy a moment for someone like JJ not to include. And even then they don’t have to be anyone we know. It’s way more dramatic and powerful if she can just be a daughter of two people we’ve never met. *who are possibly still out there.

david75

Gbear wrote: »

I don't think the twin thing would work at this point.
Giving her a normal life? Of an indentured servant on a ****hole like Jakku?
That's not really in Leia's character IMO, either in letting her go to protect her or in leaving her to such privation.

Why didn't anyone say anything? Leia? Han? Luke?

I really don't buy it.

They've left just enough wiggle room to retcon it but at this point it'd clash so strongly with their characters, the themes of this film and with the reality of the universe that doing so would be a mistake, IMO.

It would gain nothing, other than an excuse to placate mechanistic desires about the realisim of Reys magic telekenesis powers, and it'd waste all the character development both Rey and Kylo Ren have had.

Snoke pretty much explictly came out and said what the deal with her was.

She was a function of balance in the force, with the power of Kylo Ren being matched by a power of the light.
He had thought it would be Luke, but when he saw her, he realised that she was it.

Power in the force was something nebulous in the OT. They only started ****ing around with it in the Prequels where they tried to harden the sci-fi, but a lot of notions have been binned from that era.

We know Rey was already a martial artist from her time on Jakku, so she had a grounding in fighting, and she tells us that she's been practicing Luke's training regime.
To add to that, we're repeatedly told that she's ludicrously powerful but raw.

She beat Kylo Ren in TFA because he'd just been shot and his resolve was wavering after killing his dad, weakening his link to the force.

Whether she could have done it in this film is another matter.
The grip they both had on the lightsaber in the throne room, ripping it apart, was a function of that raw strength. It doesn't mean they're necessarily evenly matched in more general terms.

Also, Kylo Ren nearly solod (haha) 3 of the royal guards whereas Rey struggled with 1. I think he killed the majority.

Snoke's interference allowed them to talk face to face, but it was a 1v1, invisible to everyone else.

What Luke did shows the depth of strength that neither of them have even remotely come close to demonstrating. He did, on his own, what 3 strong force users could only make work for 2 people, but it was also an illusion of him rather than a clear link and he was projecting it to an entire army.

Yes, it killed him, but it puts the powers of Kylo Ren and Rey into perspective none the less.

Just on that last point about Luke the island itself definitely seems to be an amplifier. He twice uses it, once to waken Leia and the other for his final act.

The close up shot of the round thing with the water on it we see it vibrating and he’s over by his meditation rock. Reckon n the island is some sort of nexus or hub in the force.

I’m thinking Rians new trilogy might explore this. He’s going all the way back he said.

Gbear

david75 wrote: »

Johnson has said Kylo isn’t being entirely truthful with her so I’d say she will find out in 9. It’s just too juicy a moment for someone like JJ not to include. And even then they don’t have to be anyone we know. It’s way more dramatic and powerful if she can just be a daughter of two people we’ve never met. *who are possibly still out there.

Or it could be more in the detail and the delivery.

He said they sold her for booze money like she was nothing.

It could be that they didn't have a choice, they died and she was left adrift or any other number of things that don't make them special but also don't mean they threw her out like yesterday's rubbish.

The deception could have been in trying to hurt her and feed her bitterness rather than making something up wholesale.

Edit: I'm still just spoliering everything. Better safe than sorry.:o

Saruhashi

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

I still think Rey’s parents are key, agreed with David75 that Kylo was lying to weaken her. Her being a natural descendent of the force is the only thing for me that explains her abilities. Even Luke says that Ben is the only one who is as natural as her with the powers. Surely not twins?!?

Here's my problem with the whole "who are Rey's parents" thing and the conclusion TLJ appears to give, or not give, us.

The theory that Reys parents are characters from either the OT or PT is relevant only to the audience.

For Rey, knowing who her parents are is important to her in a way that is completely different to the fan view.

At the beginning of TFA she thinks Luke Skywalker is myth and all she learns about Kylo Ren is that he is Han Solos son. (does she even learn this in TFA?
I can easily assume she had some off-screen conversations with Leia to clear things up?).

The character doesn't know that Han and Leia were together in the past. She doesn't know that Vader is Ben's grandfather. She only knows she can use the force after Maz's castle, when she is captured and taken to Starkiller Base.

So Rey isn't going through the movies thinking "is Obi Wan my father, is Palpatine my father, am I a clone of Anakin Skywalker, am I Luke Skywalkers daughter?"

She was waiting for her parents on Jaku long before she met BB8 and got tangled up in all this.

So if Ben says "your parents are nobody" this doesn't really make sense from Rey's perspective, only from the audiences perspective.

She's not gonna think "my parents aren't someone from the previous Star Wars movies so I guess I'll just give up on this desire to know who they are".

The idea that the reveal subverts the audiences expectations is good but it only works with her character if the character was obsessed with having a bloodline that is powerful with the force. She never was. She just wanted to know who her parents are (and what happened to them).

Surely she would still want to know who her parents are regardless of what Ben says?

Wibbs

faceman wrote: »

My theory on her and many of the new characters is it’s an effort by Hollywood to create deeper female characters.

I wish that were the case FM.

However all too often and certainly with blockbusters it's almost always male writers/directors/producers writing a character that could be male and adding boobs, or writing a male fantasy Buffy character who can do no wrong(and would be their fantasy girlfriend, of course). Dern plays the former, Ridley the latter. The mother figure tends to come in too, Leia in this case and woman Yoda with glasses(father figures are usually absent, evil, or bloody useless). The BSDM overpowering woman another(Phasma. Who is all too sadly a throwaway character when she could be so much more*) Then again this works for the male demographic fanbase as many are coming from a similar viewpoint.

Things have changed for the better in Star Wars anyway. Even as a boy I noticed that in the originals the only real women's role was Leia. Hell IIRC in the first one other than Luke's old aunt who has a couple of lines she's the only woman in the entire thing. She kicks arse and is brave, even in the face of fear, without going full bloke which tends to be how it goes these days. Still, the original trilogy was unbelievably male a universe. Even for the 70's.

The prequels to be fair and for all their flaws at least had more women and more rounded women characters. Padme for a start. She showed more conflict and journey in ten minutes of screen time than Rey has shown in three hours of screen time. Hell the Clone Wars and Rebels cartoons for kids have more women and more believable women characters(more women are behind the camera and typewriters, so big shock).

Diversity was almost entirely lacking in the first trilogy too. And that was noted and criticised at the time, hence Cool Back Dude Lando's inclusion in the second and third. The prequels were mind blowingly old style "racist" at times. The Charlie Chan Chinese baddies, the Jewish double crossing wheeler dealer, the Jamaican Jar Jar. Like really WTF, is this the 1940's for me and I'd hardly be the most Right On of viewers.

That's all thankfully changed for the better. Though the diversity is usually only on the Good Guy's side, the baddies are nearly always white men and usually older. The only non white baddie I can recall in the SW universe is Darth Maul, but he's still a white fella with a red and black tan.

But yeah for all the surface "right on" Hollywood egalitarianism(and recent events have shown how much BS that can be) it's still very much a certain White American middle class college oft adolescent male vision of Women™ and those roles tend to be extremely one dimensional. With the possible exception of the male character with boobs. Mainly because it's actually a male character to start with and they know how to write those.






*though I do like how they treated Phasma in the costume sense. No (humongous) metal bra cinched at the waist "armour" just because she's a woman. That made a very nice and realistic change from the usual metal bikini with high heels and bare legs nonsense.

Tony EH

faceman wrote: »

My theory on her and many of the new characters is it’s an effort by Hollywood to create deeper female characters. Dameron is a very 2 dimensional character, reflecting the role women have played in movies for years. I liked Laura Dern’a character. An anti hero and female. It didn’t feel like a female character for the sake of it to me. She reflected what I would expect of a real life rebellion would look like more so than a nice-as-pie princess ever would to be fair.

She played it well, and did what she had to do with what she had to do it with - if that makes sense.

Laura Dern is very fine actress and is vet (not to mention really tall in this?). So, I expect her do be able to step up. But, her character is just complete baggage in terms of plot. It's just the bad writing that lets her down. For instance,

she admonishes Dameron for everything I dislike that character for in a very realistic manner (Leia does it too), but then she doesn't tell him about the upcoming plan to save the entire crew, which causes a completely unnecesary rift aboard her ship at the worst possible time.

That, right there, is an absolute failure in writing. There's no two ways about it.

It's quite possible I missed something that explained why she did that, but at present, I'm still shaking my head.

Plus, another thing struck me as I watched the

hyperspace attack on Snoke's flagship...why the heel did nobody think of doing that with the two Deathstars that the Empire built?

Tony EH

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I think in TFA they just destroyed the central planets of the Republic on which the Government was based, presumably after that most other systems that would have been Republic aligned just fell in line to avoid destruction or an unwinnable/costly war.

It's not explained, exactly, and TFA did a really bad job of establishing the political situation in the Galaxy 30 years after ROTJ.... but I don't think it really needs much exposition by the point of TLJ.

Though I'd be curious as to what system was actually destroyed in TFA - was Coruscant, traditional seat of Government for the Republic/Empire, destroyed?

It was the Hosnian system. Coruscant is not part of it.

The politics of Disney's trilogy has been a joke so far. I understand they want to avoid any criticism that the prequels recieved for "politics", but it's way too vague. It's actually dismissive.

We still don't actually know what Snoke wanted...and now

he's dead

. Utterly pointless really.