Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

TerrorFirmer

Tony EH wrote: »

Plus, another thing struck me as I watched the

hyperspace attack on Snoke's flagship...why the heel did nobody think of doing that with the two Deathstars that the Empire built?

I think that could probably be explained away by the fact that it required the loss of a very significant capital ship to inflict that level of damage - and it may not have worked against the huge structure of the Death Star either... or even have been able to penetrate it's extremely powerful shielding.

Valid point overall, but it's not one that troubles me too much in the overall scheme of things (and what's wrong with TLJ).

She's not gonna think "my parents aren't someone from the previous Star Wars movies so I guess I'll just give up on this desire to know who they are".

I think there's more at play here, because Rey has a very, very strong sense of having been abandoned clearly evident in TFA and TLJ - yet bizarrely, neither film gives any exposition to this concept at all, other than references that she 'has to get back to Jakku'.

Her actual reasoning behind her resolute determination that she's been abandoned and someone coming back is never explained; but her Force Vision quite clearly shows her watching a very high-end cruiser sailing away from the planet, the implication being that she's just been abandoned.

Now, you could say it's misdirection, and if it was a direct 'memory' I would agree - but the force vision clearly shows this, so I'm inclined to think the evidence from the film, as well as Johnson's assertion, says there is a lot more to this story.

Doesn't mean they have to be 'somebody' or a link to the OT, but there's something there that is pivotal to her character as well as offering some level of explanation for her unusually strong powers.

TerrorFirmer

Tony EH wrote: »

It was the Hosnian system. Coruscant is not part of it.

The politics of Disney's trilogy has been a joke so far. I understand they want to avoid any criticism that the prequels recieved for "politics", but it's way too vague. It's actually dismissive.

Agree. Interesting from TFA visual guide - couple lines in the movie wouldn't have killed them to clarify a few matters and tie in nicely with the end of ROTJ.

With the Galactic Civil War concluded, the New Republic sought to reshape galactic politics in an effort to prevent the abuses of the Old Republic and to bring in the disaffected worlds that had ceded from the Republic prior to the Clone Wars. It was decided by the Senate that all worlds would have an equal say in their government, in which member worlds such as Chandrila and Hosnian Prime would host the Republic's capital on a rotating basis rather than Coruscant alone.

david75

Tony Leia demotes Poe to captain. The Holdo also has to admonish him. Twice.
He’s a hot head who can’t follow orders at that point, so in her mind he doesn’t need to know the plan. Need to know basis and he doesn’t need to know. Then. He stages a mutiny which in effect gets most of them all killed.

Tony EH

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Agree. Interesting from TFA visual guide - couple lines in the movie wouldn't have killed them to clarify a few matters and tie in nicely with the end of ROTJ.

There was a deleted scene from TFA that expanded the political situation, albeit in a miniscule way. But, it's not enough.

The sequel trilogy just has no real grounding in anything. It's like Disney are just waving their hand and going "yeh whatever".

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

She played it well, and did what she had to do with what she had to do it with - if that makes sense.

Laura Dern is very fine actress and is vet (not to mention really tall in this?). So, I expect her do be able to step up. But, her character is just complete baggage in terms of plot. It's just the bad writing that lets her down. For instance,

she admonishes Dameron for everything I dislike that character for in a very realistic manner (Leia does it too), but then she doesn't tell him about the upcoming plan to save the entire crew, which causes a completely unnecesary rift aboard her ship at the worst possible time.

That, right there, is an absolute failure in writing. There's no two ways about it.

It's quite possible I missed something that explained why she did that, but at present, I'm still shaking my head.

Plus, another thing struck me as I watched the

hyperspace attack on Snoke's flagship...why the heel did nobody think of doing that with the two Deathstars that the Empire built?

Some spoilers ahead , can’t do spoiler link on phone!

Totally disagree with you. Why do you think people have to act specific ways for their characters to be more genuine or interesting? Why does something that hasn’t been done before have Less credibility because somebody else hadn’t thought of it?! The gripes you highlighted involve 2 female characters putting a male character in his place and one of those females doing a truly heroic act and saving the rebels. Why can’t a side character save the rebels and be heroic? Does every character that does a brave thing have to have depth or a back story?

There was a challenge between the two characters and the vice admiral was confirming a demotion and that said person should know their place. Why should she share her plans or reason with him? She is the leader. He didn’t need to know her plan and the lesson was patience , know your role , attack is not always the best option and trust in your superiors. He didn’t listen to Leia bout retreating and his reaction to the plan was mutiny so she was proven right. By the end, this characters ark showed he learned a valuable lesson in prioritizing the lives of those he faught with over always going for the throat/attack. Had she just sat him down and explained the plan and he learned his lesson, people would be giving out how easy it was to tame a hotshot with a cup of tea!!

In terms of your second point, sure why did it take terrorists so long to figure out that flying 2 planes into twin towers would be visually devastating to the USA? Because it’s only obvious after one person try’s it. It never happened in the originals , so why should it be a problem that somebody came up with the idea for the new movies? Why should somebody else of tried it in the past? Are the originals ruined for you now because nobody in those ever lightsped into the Death Star or star destroyer?

johnny_ultimate

Mod note: OK think the film has been out long enough now.

No need for spoiler tags from here on out. If you haven't seen the film yet, be warned that spoilers will follow!

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Tony Leia demotes Poe to captain. The Holdo also has to admonish him. Twice.
He’s a hot head who can’t follow orders at that point, so in her mind he doesn’t need to know the plan. Need to know basis and he doesn’t need to know. Then. He stages a mutiny which in effect gets most of them all killed.

But, that's just stupid.

Everyone gets the memo on the escape to Krait plan, but not Poe, because he's a hothead?

Besides...

Dameron admonishes Holdo becasue simply ejecting into space is certain death and he's correct. If Holdo had said, actually Part 2 of that is getting down to that planet and holding up in a heavily armed bunker, like she apparently told everyone else on the ship, it would have at least expanded his knowledge to a more agreeable position as under the circumstances that plan made sense.

The mutiny is staged because Holdo kept essential info back from Poe, unnecessarily.

...and, frankly it's just a badly written attempt at injecting some drama into the proceedings.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

Totally disagree with you. Why do you think people have to act specific ways for their characters to be more genuine or interesting? Why does something that hasn’t been done before have Less credibility because somebody else hadn’t thought of it?! The gripes you highlighted involve 2 female characters putting a male character in his place and one of those females doing a truly heroic act and saving the rebels. Why can’t a side character save the rebels and be heroic? Does every character that does a brave thing have to have depth or a back story?

The above is neither here nor there and not even what I am being critical about.

Drumpot wrote: »

There was a challenge between the two characters and the vice admiral was confirming a demotion and that said person should know their place. Why should she share her plans or reason with him?

Because everybody else is in the know :pac:

Poe is correct, that simply bailing out is suicide. Telling him part 2 adds a little sense to plan. In fact, it's probably the only thing they can do under the circumstances.

It's simply bad writing.

Drumpot wrote: »

She is the leader. He didn’t need to know her plan and the lesson was patience , know your role

And yet everyone else seems to know.

david75

Tony EH wrote: »

But, that's just stupid.

Everyone gets the memo on the escape to Krait plan, but not Poe, because he's a hothead?

Besides...

Dameron admonishes Holdo becasue simply ejecting into space is certain death and he's correct. If Holdo had said, actually Part 2 of that is getting down to that planet and holding up in a heavily armed bunker, like she apparently told everyone else on the ship, it would have at least expanded his knowledge to a more agreeable position as under the circumstances that plan made sense.

The mutiny is staged because Holdo kept essential info back from Poe, unnecessarily.

...and, frankly it's just a badly written attempt at injecting some drama into the proceedings.

It’s not stupid at all. You don’t give the guy who just had all you bomber fleet and presumably thousands of crew killed, info on your next move.

It would have been stupid if he HAD have been given that info. And he reacts and makes another bad decision based on his lack on i to and gets more people killed.

It’s great writing by Johnson showing us the hero guy often makes poor decisions and fvcks up royally.

Everyone in the film gets challenged like this. It would be bad writing if it was the usual hero saves the day and is bulletproof. Again. Like he was in TFA.

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

The above is neither here nor there and not even what I am being critical about.



Because everybody else is in the know :pac:

Poe is correct, that simply bailing out is suicide. Telling him part 2 adds a little sense to plan. In fact, it's probably the only thing they can do under the circumstances.

It's simply bad writing.



And yet everyone else seems to know.

If events in movies don’t unfold as you see they should It doesn’t equate to bad writing. Poe isn’t and wasn’t right, how did you not cop that from what happened?

It wasn’t suicide because the first order only knew they were bailing out because of Poe’s plan. It was the thief who informed the first order that the rebels were escaping. He wouldn’t of been there had Poe not just followed orders.

Poe did not need to know the plan. Had he followed orders the rebels would f escaped without casualties. He didn’t agree with the plan and was wrong because his plan would of killed all Rebels because it failed.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

It’s not stupid at all. You don’t give the guy who just had all you bomber fleet and presumably thousands of crew killed, info on your next move.

It would have been stupid if he HAD have been given that info. And he reacts and makes another bad decision based on his lack on i to and gets more people killed.

But everyone else has the news apparently.

Besides, part 1 of her plan is shot, when he sees whats happening with the escape pods. Not telling him part 2 is almost bound to have him do something.

Also, if she can't trust him with the knowledge, why didn't she not brig him? As soon as he's escorted from the bridge, he's on the blower to Finn.

Saruhashi

Drumpot wrote: »

Why can’t a side character save the rebels and be heroic? Does every character that does a brave thing have to have depth or a back story?

There is a question of how much weight the scene should have.

Say you are writing this and you know the hyperspace kamikaze moment will happen. You know how massive this scene will be.

Giving the moment to a major character adds weight to the moment.

In this instance the writer kills Admiral Ackbar off screen with very little acknowledgment. Then we bring in an all new character that none of us have met before (unless we've bought the DLC read some book). Then we give that new character about 15 minutes of screen time with a kind of messy plot before pushing them forward as the one to make the ultimate sacrifice.

If you can't do that then at least you need to have the character "earn" their moment on screen. King Theoden in LOTR, for example. Obi Wan in the the originals.

I don't think Rogue One is an appropriate comparison as the entire movie is centered around the characters building the weight of their sacrifice.

Admiral Holdo does not "earn" her moment. There's no connection to the audience, in my opinion. She's a hero because the movie says so. Too bad the movie doesn't show us.

You put any established character in that seat and this massive scene instantly gains so much more weight.

I have a feel that this will be Admiral Holdos legacy:
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017 - An eerily perfect installment for the post-Trump era. :pac:

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

But everyone else has the news apparently.

Besides, part 1 of her plan is shot, when he sees whats happening with the escape pods. Not telling him part 2 is almost bound to have him do something.

Also, if she can't trust him with the knowledge, why didn't she not brig him? As soon as he's escorted from the bridge, he's on the blower to Finn.

We don’t know everybody else knows the plan, maybe most people are just following orders. Maybe some people agree with Poe but the nature of mutiny is that people might agree with Poe’s plan.

TerrorFirmer

It was a really, really strange decision not to just exclude that character altogether and replace her function with Admiral Ackbar.

Instead we wave goodbye to an iconic OT character in a sort of 'blink and you'll miss it' moment, and feeble and all as it was, still manages to be even further overshadowed by Leia's space-force-ghost walk.

The idea of Admiral Ackbar piloting the cruiser as it rips through Snoke's ship would've been a compelling send-off for franchise fans, and detract nothing whatsoever from the act for newer or more casual fans.

Strange one. One of the strangest decisions of the film in my opinion, actually.

Osmosis Jones

Can't really get my head around people saying any reference to the OT (like Yoda showing up) is pandering to the audience and fan service, but then also wanting the movie to pay homage to OT characters instead of creating new ones.

The Nal

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It was a really, really strange decision not to just exclude that character altogether and replace her function with Admiral Ackbar.

Instead we wave goodbye to an iconic OT character in a sort of 'blink and you'll miss it' moment, and feeble and all as it was, still manages to be even further overshadowed by Leia's space-force-ghost walk.

The idea of Admiral Ackbar piloting the cruiser as it rips through Snoke's ship would've been a compelling send-off for franchise fans, and detract nothing whatsoever from the act for newer or more casual fans.

Strange one. One of the strangest decisions of the film in my opinion, actually.

But with her, they have an extra action figure to flog.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

If events in movies don’t unfold as you see they should It doesn’t equate to bad writing. Poe isn’t and wasn’t right, how did you not cop that from what happened?

It wasn’t suicide because the first order only knew they were bailing out because of Poe’s plan. It was the thief who informed the first order that the rebels were escaping. He wouldn’t of been there had Poe not just followed orders.

Poe did not need to know the plan. Had he followed orders the rebels would f escaped without casualties. He didn’t agree with the plan and was wrong because his plan would of killed all Rebels because it failed.

Poe states that the excape pods are unarmed and unarmoured. They would have been sitting ducks. He's correct.

Part 2 of the plan, getting to Krait, at least offers some sense to that plan given the circumstances. Poe didn't follow the plan, because he thought the plan was eject into space, bank on the enemy ships not seeing you (somehow) and hope for the best.

In any case, the entire reason for that whole series of scenes is to just create division and drama on the cruiser. It just comes across as clumsy.

Drumpot

Saruhashi wrote: »

There is a question of how much weight the scene should have.

Say you are writing this and you know the hyperspace kamikaze moment will happen. You know how massive this scene will be.

Giving the moment to a major character adds weight to the moment.

In this instance the writer kills Admiral Ackbar off screen with very little acknowledgment. Then we bring in an all new character that none of us have met before (unless we've bought the DLC read some book). Then we give that new character about 15 minutes of screen time with a kind of messy plot before pushing them forward as the one to make the ultimate sacrifice.

If you can't do that then at least you need to have the character "earn" their moment on screen. King Theoden in LOTR, for example. Obi Wan in the the originals.

I don't think Rogue One is an appropriate comparison as the entire movie is centered around the characters building the weight of their sacrifice.

Admiral Holdo does not "earn" her moment. There's no connection to the audience, in my opinion. She's a hero because the movie says so. Too bad the movie doesn't show us.

You put any established character in that seat and this massive scene instantly gains so much more weight.

I have a feel that this will be Admiral Holdos legacy:
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

Star Wars: The Last Jedi Offers the Harsh Condemnation of Mansplaining We Need in 2017 - An eerily perfect installment for the post-Trump era. :pac:

So the movie has to follow a prescribed formula?

I didn’t feel the need to know anymore about Derns character to alter the scene. I think some of you guys think everything has to meet certain rigid criteria.

Yeh, they could of killed “it’s a trap” but they didn’t. So what? Yeh, they could of had built Derns character more but they didn’t , so what? The visual of that scene is enough on its own , it didn’t have to be “oh no , a character I liked died”.

It feels like there is an underlying issue with regards to female characters replacing male ones or the expectations that they should be different. I think woman in powerful positions can come across like their male counterparts and sometimes be different.

Drumpot

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Can't really get my head around people saying any reference to the OT (like Yoda showing up) is pandering to the audience and fan service, but then also wanting the movie to pay homage to OT characters instead of creating new ones.

I think some people don’t know what they want.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

We don’t know everybody else knows the plan, maybe most people are just following orders. Maybe some people agree with Poe but the nature of mutiny is that people might agree with Poe’s plan.

Well, presumably everyone who's getting into their ships has coordinates for Krait? So, they at least know when they're getting into the escape craft where they're going and what they're to do once they get there?

Holdo has two opportunites to inform Poe of the second and crucial part of her plan, which is sound given the circumstances. But she keeps schtum each time and for what? The first part is already blown. He might as well be told the rest and arguably the more logical part.

Look, it's an aside that I though was clumsily written, for "dramatic" purposes. If you're fine with it, grand.

It's hardly the worst of the film's sins.

TerrorFirmer

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Can't really get my head around people saying any reference to the OT (like Yoda showing up) is pandering to the audience and fan service, but then also wanting the movie to pay homage to OT characters instead of creating new ones.

The fans are not a hive mind. We all have different opinions. There's nothing to 'get your head around', you're just creating hypothetical hypocritical criticism.

In this case Admiral Ackbar was already a character in TLJ - why not use him more effectively and give him a proper send off if bothering to include him in the first instance?

Doesn't mean I'm against new characters, nor do I think including OT character is pandering if its relevant to the story.

It feels like there is an underlying issue with regards to female characters replacing male ones

OK, you really lost me at this point, that's ridiculous. Dern happens to be a woman but the criticism applies to the character, not the gender.

Saruhashi

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Can't really get my head around people saying any reference to the OT (like Yoda showing up) is pandering to the audience and fan service, but then also wanting the movie to pay homage to OT characters instead of creating new ones.

I think there is potentially a difference between fan service done well and fan service done poorly.

There's also a question of respect to, and consistency with, the Original Trilogy.

By having the movie carry the "Star Wars" name there is a certain degree of fan service built into that.

However, the way it's handled can be either good or bad.

I don't think the only choices are "no fan service at all" and "loads of fan service".

It's called "Star Wars" this pretty much ties elements of the OT to any new movie in pretty fundamental ways. The question is what do they do with it.

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

Poe states that the excape pods are unarmed and unarmoured. They would have been sitting ducks. He's correct.

Part 2 of the plan, getting to Krait, at least offers some sense to that plan given the circumstances. Poe didn't follow the plan, because he thought the plan was eject into space, bank on the enemy ships not seeing you (somehow) and hope for the best.

In any case, the entire reason for that whole series of scenes is to just create division and drama on the cruiser. It just comes across as clumsy.

The rebels only escape because of Derns plan/sacrifice and it’s in spite of Poe’s mutinous failed plan.

Poe was wrong. Had he followed orders all the rebels would have escaped. Generals share information with who they trust and feel need to know. Dern did not need to reason with Poe. The only thing she did wrong was not throw him in the brig like you said but given the severity of their circumstances we can forgive a slight error on her part.

johnny_ultimate

Having Ackbar do it is certainly nice in theory, but purely cinematically speaking I think it's fair to say having a human (and an actress as talented as Laura Dern) do it makes it a little bit easier to persuade the audience of the emotional weight of the decision compared to a googly-eyed calamari

Tony EH

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It was a really, really strange decision not to just exclude that character altogether and replace her function with Admiral Ackbar.

Instead we wave goodbye to an iconic OT character in a sort of 'blink and you'll miss it' moment, and feeble and all as it was, still manages to be even further overshadowed by Leia's space-force-ghost walk.

The idea of Admiral Ackbar piloting the cruiser as it rips through Snoke's ship would've been a compelling send-off for franchise fans, and detract nothing whatsoever from the act for newer or more casual fans.

Strange one. One of the strangest decisions of the film in my opinion, actually.

Yeh, Admiral snackbar really got shafted in the film. Why was he even in it? But, I think these sequels have really danced all over the characters and situations from the original films in many ways.

It probably would have tied in nicer to the OT if Ackbar or Madine took over when Leia died didn't die :rolleyes: . But then I spose there'd be fan service accusations flying left, right and centre.

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, presumably everyone who's getting into their ships has coordinates for Krait? So, they at least know when they're getting into the escape craft where they're going and what they're to do once they get there?

Holdo has two opportunites to inform Poe of the second and crucial part of her plan, which is sound given the circumstances. But she keeps schtum each time and for what? The first part is already blown. He might as well be told the rest and arguably the more logical part.

Look, it's an aside that I though was clumsily written, for "dramatic" purposes. If you're fine with it, grand.

It's hardly the worst of the film's sins.

Can you imagine General Jack Nicholson (you can’t handle the truth) explaining his plans and trying to reason with an understudy because he knows they may not support his plan? Or would he tell them to STFU and do what he says?

No, exactly.... Given they were hanging on for the lives and looking f*cked , I can excuse a slight lapse (not putting in brig). And she actually said she was fond of Poe when affectionately rubbing his head! She didn’t want to lock him up and knew his heart was in the right place. Why do you feel a character HAS to make a perfect call or decision? Do you think superiors and army’s are perfectly functioning institutions? it’s not bad writing, it’s characters making imperfect calls which is more real then everything happening the way we think it should.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

It feels like there is an underlying issue with regards to female characters replacing male ones or the expectations that they should be different. I think woman in powerful positions can come across like their male counterparts and sometimes be different.

Don't try and pull that shit, because (a) it's cheap and (b) nobody is saying that.

nix

Vertigo100 wrote: »

It was obvious he wasn’t there when his lightsaber was blue. It had been destroyed in the throne room already.

Yeah and it would be impossible to think that he would have made more than one down through the years, i mean its just what Jedi's do when they lose their current one :rolleyes:

Saruhashi

Drumpot wrote: »

So the movie has to follow a prescribed formula?

I didn’t feel the need to know anymore about Derns character to alter the scene. I think some of you guys think everything has to meet certain rigid criteria.

Yeh, they could of killed “it’s a trap” but they didn’t. So what? Yeh, they could of had built Derns character more but they didn’t , so what? The visual of that scene is enough on its own , it didn’t have to be “oh no , a character I liked died”.

It feels like there is an underlying issue with regards to female characters replacing male ones or the expectations that they should be different. I think woman in powerful positions can come across like their male counterparts and sometimes be different.

But movies DO follow a prescribed formula. Moving away form the formula can be good or it can be bad.

There are good ways and bad ways to build character. There are good ways and bad ways to add drama.

There are ways to add weight to a scene and there are ways to add levity.

You are basically saying that if Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star or some random Rebel Pilot blew up the Death Star it makes no difference because the visual of the scene is enough on it's own.

Of course it makes a difference who does what within the movie.

You watch the 9 Star Wars movies and see hundreds of stormtroopers getting killed, right? The deaths of those stormtroopers carries the story forward in loads of different ways, right?

So which deaths resonate more with the audience? The deaths of Obi Wan, Yoda, Han etc or the deaths of the stormtroopers? Why is that?

This logic applies to Admiral Holdo pretty easily, I think.

Sad Professor

Johnson did a great job of setting up episode 9, though it will be interesting to see what JJ does with it given that Rian basically set his mystery box on fire in this film. I think the "big bad" of the the final film will be the rich pricks on Canto Bight making money from everyone else's misery. I think it will be revealed that Snoke was allied with them (hence his clothes) and that they are what's really behind the First Order and they will probably have some part in the reborn Rebellion as well. With Snoke and Leia out of the picture, Kylo and Rey will have to deal with them and undoubtedly come back into conflict again before realising who their real enemy is. I don't think Kylo is beyond saving. Or at least that's not a message I think this trilogy will want to leave people with. More will probably be revealed about Rey's parents, but given that them being nobodies was JJ's idea (it's even in the TFA trailer from a scene that was cut), I can't see him going back on it.

Btw I was totally bang on with two of my predictions: that Rey was nobody and that Luke would be broken. However, I expected Luke to be more of a drunken, clownish samurai compared to what we got. Johnson went waaay darker with him than even I was expecting. I mean, he was basically about to commit Seppuku when Rey interrupted him. And people thought TESB was dark!

I love how nearly everything the characters set out to do in the film results in failure. Such a wonderful subversion of expectations. There was a moment early on when Poe, Finn etc were talking about plot - "we're going to go here, do this, etc" and I got worried that the film was going to be stuck on rails like the second half of TFA and all of ROTJ. But nope, Johnson is just screwing with you. Even at the end I thought "okay it's about to get predictable now, they'll have a big battle and win". Nope, they get massacred and have to run yet again. "Oh here's Luke all deus ex machina-like, he'll wipe the floor with the bad guys." Nope, he's just distracting them. They run again.