Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Osmosis Jones

Tony EH wrote: »

Don't try and pull that shit, because (a) it's cheap and (b) nobody is saying that.

I mean there already have been accusations against the movie in this thread for making all the villains white and having a couple of Asian and black people wandering around on screen.

Saruhashi

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Having Ackbar do it is certainly nice in theory, but purely cinematically speaking I think it's fair to say having a human (and an actress as talented as Laura Dern) do it makes it a little bit easier to persuade the audience of the emotional weight of the decision compared to a googly-eyed calamari

RACIST!

To paraphrase Drumpot: It feels like there is an underlying issue with regards to alien characters replacing human ones or the expectations that they should be different. I think aliens in powerful positions can come across like their human counterparts and sometimes be different.

:cool:

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

Can you imagine General Jack Nicholson (you can’t handle the truth) explaining his plans and trying to reason with an understudy because he knows they may not support his plan? Or would he tell them to STFU and do what he says?

It's not even near the same scenario.

The plan involves the entire crew getting into escape craft, piloting to Krait and meeting up at an assigned rendezvous - the old bunker. Otherwise how would it work?

For something like that to go according to plan, everyone would have to know the bloody plan.

It's not important to reveal entire details, but it is important to let people know where they are going and what they have to do when they get there.

johnny_ultimate

Saruhashi wrote: »

RACIST!

To paraphrase Drumpot: It feels like there is an underlying issue with regards to alien characters replacing human ones or the expectations that they should be different. I think aliens in powerful positions can come across like their human counterparts and sometimes be different.

:cool:

Some of the aliens and indeed robots in this series are absolutely capable of conveying emotion, I agree, and carrying the dramatic weight that comes with it. I mean, for a puppet Yoda is clearly able to express everything from manic joy to wizened calm. He's carried big moments appropriately.

With Ackbar, though, you have a character clearly unable to visually express much in the way of nuance, and has spent much of his screen time spewing out exposition or gag lines. It's the kind of character perhaps better explored in text. It'd be great if he was capable of holding and selling a vital dramatic scene - but, practically, there are obviously massive hurdles. If that makes me an alien racist, so be it

Drumpot

Saruhashi wrote: »

But movies DO follow a prescribed formula. Moving away form the formula can be good or it can be bad.

There are good ways and bad ways to build character. There are good ways and bad ways to add drama.

There are ways to add weight to a scene and there are ways to add levity.

You are basically saying that if Luke Skywalker blew up the Death Star or some random Rebel Pilot blew up the Death Star it makes no difference because the visual of the scene is enough on it's own.

Of course it makes a difference who does what within the movie.

You watch the 9 Star Wars movies and see hundreds of stormtroopers getting killed, right? The deaths of those stormtroopers carries the story forward in loads of different ways, right?

So which deaths resonate more with the audience? The deaths of Obi Wan, Yoda, Han etc or the deaths of the stormtroopers? Why is that?

This logic applies to Admiral Holdo pretty easily, I think.

No it doesn’t because Admiral Holdos actions are not the final act nor are the meant to be the emotional impact we get from Luke’s arrival. You can over play the emotional moment card in a movie whereby when the time comes for “luke to enter” we are just drained or numb from the recent sadness of losing another beloved character. Luke, having his own sendoff was better and more impacting because we didn’t just lament the loss of another character we cared about. That’s also good writing or story telling, not over doing the emotion and letting big characters deaths hit us!

Osmosis Jones

I agree Ackbar shouldn't have been the one to take Dern's position but just imagine if he did for a moment.

Ackbar sits there in the ship, alone, plotting. We cut to General Hux and his phone rings. "IT"S A TRAP" as Ackbar ploughs into the First Order ship.

Tony EH

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Some of the aliens and indeed robots in this series are absolutely capable of conveying emotion, I agree, and carrying the dramatic weight that comes with it. I mean, for a puppet Yoda is clearly able to express everything from manic joy to wizened calm. He's carried big moments appropriately.

With Ackbar, though, you have a character clearly unable to visually express much in the way of nuance, and has spent much of his screen time spewing out exposition or gag lines. It's the kind of character perhaps better explored in text. It'd be great if he was capable of holding and selling a vital dramatic scene - but, practically, there are obviously massive hurdles. If that makes me an alien racist, so be it

I dunno.

He expressed surprise and relief pretty well in 'Return of the Jedi'.

Maybe the puppet head just wasn't good enough.

Saruhashi

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I mean there already have been accusations against the movie in this thread for making all the villains white and having a couple of Asian and black people wandering around on screen.

I actually think the First Order should be all white and all dudes, just like the Empire.

It's a pretty easy short hand way of showing exactly what they are all about.

In the current climate I reckon this would cause some outrage from The Internet.

It really sucks that Star Wars has become a battleground for some of this identity politics stuff.

It's Star Wars FFS. As much as I did not particularly like TLJ, these movies should be about entertainment not pushing weird race and/or gender politics.

It's gonna be worse in Episode IX because there won't be any white men on the side of good and I think Rey might be the only white woman.

The baddies are mostly white.

Star Wars - Episode IX - The Two Strongest Force Users Are White And Why That's A Problem

Or

Star Wars - Episode IX - SJWs Ruined The Force And My Childhood

Tony EH

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I agree Ackbar shouldn't have been the one to take Dern's position but just imagine if he did for a moment.

Ackbar sits there in the ship, alone, plotting. We cut to General Hux and his phone rings. "IT"S A TRAP" as Ackbar ploughs into the First Order ship.

Now that would have been funny.

Hector Savage

You know the more I think about it the more pissed off I am about Snoke.
Ryan Johnson said this guy is more powerful than Sidious, more powerful than Vader - well .... evidently NOT!

Also showing his dead face with his eyes rolled back and his tongue hanging out ?? - such disrespect to a big character, he just looked pathetic there ..like some old guy that had a stroke getting out of the bath.

Character was just getting interesting and there could have been lots of potential for 1.5 films ... and boom he's gone.

johnpatrick81

I actually didn’t mind Leia using the force in her last moments, but agreed it looked ridiculous. Reminded me of Poochie’s exit in the Simpsons :pac:

david75

It’s a weird hill to die on Tony when the answer is right there.

I have a bigger question.

When the falcon drops rey off in the middle of the first order fleet, how does rey and chewie know where they are/ how to get there?

Cos Star Wars! Seems to be the only answer.

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

It's not even near the same scenario.

The plan involves the entire crew getting into escape craft, piloting to Krait and meeting up at an assigned rendezvous - the old bunker. Otherwise how would it work?

For something like that to go according to plan, everyone would have to know the bloody plan.

It's not important to reveal entire details, but it is important to let people know where they are going and what they have to do when they get there.

Let’s just agree to disagree on this Tony.

Osmosis Jones

Saruhashi wrote: »

I actually think the First Order should be all white and all dudes, just like the Empire.

It's a pretty easy short hand way of showing exactly what they are all about.

In the current climate I reckon this would cause some outrage from The Internet.

It really sucks that Star Wars has become a battleground for some of this identity politics stuff.

It's Star Wars FFS. As much as I did not particularly like TLJ, these movies should be about entertainment not pushing weird race and/or gender politics.

It's gonna be worse in Episode IX because there won't be any white men on the side of good and I think Rey might be the only white woman.

The baddies are mostly white.

Star Wars - Episode IX - The Two Strongest Force Users Are White And Why That's A Problem

Or

Star Wars - Episode IX - SJWs Ruined The Force And My Childhood

This is embarrassing.

"It's gonna be worse in Episode IX because there won't be any white men on the side of good and I think Rey might be the only white woman." I doubt that will be the case but even if it is then so what? There was one black guy in the entirety of the OT, were you upset about that?

Having a movie acknowledge there are more people in the world than just white men isn't a reason to cry about the "SJW" boogeyman.

TerrorFirmer

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I agree Ackbar shouldn't have been the one to take Dern's position but just imagine if he did for a moment.

Ackbar sits there in the ship, alone, plotting. We cut to General Hux and his phone rings. "IT"S A TRAP" as Ackbar ploughs into the First Order ship.

Now that would be actually the sort of slightly more subtle 'funny' I would be OK with as opposed to the 'Naked Gun' antics we did get far too often.

Tony EH

Hector Savage wrote: »

You know the more I think about it the more pissed off I am about Snoke.
Ryan Johnson said this guy is more powerful than Sidious, more powerful than Vader - well .... evidently NOT!

Also showing his dead face with his eyes rolled back and his tongue hanging out ?? - such disrespect to a big character, he just looked pathetic there ..like some old guy that had a stroke getting out of the bath.

Character was just getting interesting and there could have been lots of potential for 1.5 films ... and boom he's gone.

Yeh, it's a real missed opportunity there.

Although, I'm not against characters, good or bad, going out in low key ways (so long as they stay dead, Fett and Maul - I'm looking at you).

david75

Hector Savage wrote: »

You know the more I think about it the more pissed off I am about Snoke.
Ryan Johnson said this guy is more powerful than Sidious, more powerful than Vader - well .... evidently NOT!

Also showing his dead face with his eyes rolled back and his tongue hanging out ?? - such disrespect to a big character, he just looked pathetic there ..like some old guy that had a stroke getting out of the bath.

Character was just getting interesting and there could have been lots of potential for 1.5 films ... and boom he's gone.

He’s pretty one dimensional and it’s brilliabt they killed him here.
It would just be too obvious and all we’d hear is REPEAT OF JEDI if he got killed in 9.

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

He’s pretty one dimensional and it’s brilliabt they killed him here.
It would just be too obvious and all we’d hear is REPEAT OF JEDI if he got killed in 9.

Its a fair point, but who is going to fill that void in IX ?

I like Ren - but not as the super bad guy.

Then again, if anyone can pull it off, it will be JJ.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

It’s a weird hill to die on Tony when the answer is right there.

There's no hills to die on. It's just a clumsy angle, written to force some drama, that ended up being silly and avoidable.

It's merely an observation. But, as said, there's much worse going on.

If you're happy with it. Go for it.

Saruhashi

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Some of the aliens and indeed robots in this series are absolutely capable of conveying emotion, I agree, and carrying the dramatic weight that comes with it. I mean, for a puppet Yoda is clearly able to express everything from manic joy to wizened calm. He's carried big moments appropriately.

With Ackbar, though, you have a character clearly unable to visually express much in the way of nuance, and has spent much of his screen time spewing out exposition or gag lines. It's the kind of character perhaps better explored in text. It'd be great if he was capable of holding and selling a vital dramatic scene - but, practically, there are obviously massive hurdles. If that makes me an alien racist, so be it

This is Star Wars conversation these days.

I think Lucas proved in the prequels (and the special editions) that an abundance of weird alien characters front and center is good visually but not so great for the story.

I agree that Admiral Ackbar would struggle to convey emotion for sure.

I also think that Admiral Holdo never really earned such a huge moment in the franchise.

I am sure discussions like this are how the series has endured down through the decades now.

david75

So was luke about to pass into the force at the end of TFA and Rey interrupted him?
Is this why he’s so cranky with her the whole time? He does say I came here to die.
Every time he wears the white robes in TLJ he’s about to do something extreme. And in the end, does, by passing into the force.

Any thoughts?

TerrorFirmer

I have outstanding questions regarding Snoke and I feel it could have been done slightly - or a lot - better than it was, but I'm largely OK with it as well. Sets the scene nicely for a radically different sort of conflict to be resolved in Ep9.

It ties in nicely with DJ's assertion that sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and that there is no traditional plot armor in play, in terms of the narrative - virtually everybody, whether 'good' or 'bad', fails in this film on some level - Poe, Finn, Rey, Snoke, Kylo, et al.

And, tying in with Luke flinging his sabre over the cliff edge, and Kylo imploring Rey to abandon a past she cannot change and embrace a future she can - everything is important...until it's not. Snoke is crucial to the plot...until he's suddenly not.

One of the central themes of the whole film is the perceived importance we place on people, items and places. The more I think about it the more I'm hugely impressed with the stones on Rian Johnson.

Saruhashi

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

This is embarrassing.

"It's gonna be worse in Episode IX because there won't be any white men on the side of good and I think Rey might be the only white woman." I doubt that will be the case but even if it is then so what? There was one black guy in the entirety of the OT, were you upset about that?

Having a movie acknowledge there are more people in the world than just white men isn't a reason to cry about the "SJW" boogeyman.

Haha. I didn't mean the movie will be worse.

I meant the endless whining from people online about all the goodies being women and POC and all the baddies being white would be worse.

I agree with you. "So what?" is the correct reaction.

Jesus, I thought my post was obviously making fun of people who bring race into a conversation about Star Wars.

I guess I should have been more on the nose with that. Just like The Last Jedi was.

Sad Professor

johnpatrick81 wrote: »

I actually didn’t mind Leia using the force in her last moments, but agreed it looked ridiculous. Reminded me of Poochie’s exit in the Simpsons :pac:

I really liked it. Leia was terribly shortchanged after TESB. It was good to see her use her Force powers and not in an attack/defence-type way. Again, it gets away from this idea that the Force is just for Jedis. The shot itself was presumedly an homage to Mary Poppins which is a very uncool iconography to be drawing on in 2017, but so was Flash Gordon in 1977.

The Nal

david75 wrote: »

So was luke about to pass into the force at the end of TFA and Rey interrupted him?
Is this why he’s so cranky with her the whole time? He does say I came here to die.
Every time he wears the white robes in TLJ he’s about to do something extreme. And in the end, does, by passing into the force.

Any thoughts?

He was mid **** in TFA so was pissed off she interupted him.

Osmosis Jones

Saruhashi wrote: »

Haha. I didn't mean the movie will be worse.

I meant the endless whining from people online about all the goodies being women and POC and all the baddies being white would be worse.

I agree with you. "So what?" is the correct reaction.

Jesus, I thought my post was obviously making fun of people who bring race into a conversation about Star Wars.

I guess I should have been more on the nose with that. Just like The Last Jedi was.

Fair, I read it as you being "one of those" rather than mocking them

david75

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I have outstanding questions regarding Snoke and I feel it could have been done slightly - or a lot - better than it was, but I'm largely OK with it as well. Sets the scene nicely for a radically different sort of conflict to be resolved in Ep9.

It ties in nicely with DJ's assertion that sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and that there is no traditional plot armor in play, in terms of the narrative - virtually everybody, whether 'good' or 'bad', fails in this film on some level - Poe, Finn, Rey, Snoke, Kylo, et al.

And, tying in with Luke flinging his sabre over the cliff edge, and Kylo imploring Rey to abandon a past she cannot change and embrace a future she can - everything is important...until it's not. Snoke is crucial to the plot...until he's suddenly not.

One of the central themes of the whole film is the perceived importance we place on people, items and places. The more I think about it the more I'm hugely impressed with the stones on Rian Johnson.

Agree completely.

The shot of Luke throwing the saber away over his shoulder is the entire lot of that depicted in one shot. See all your theories expectations and demands of what Star Wars should be? There they go over the cliff.

Also kind of symbolic that rey brings it back though.

Drumpot

david75 wrote: »

He’s pretty one dimensional and it’s brilliabt they killed him here.
It would just be too obvious and all we’d hear is REPEAT OF JEDI if he got killed in 9.

The irony is that people say they want something different and then complain about characters or stories not following a very rigid pattern/ark. The original Star Wars had a very unoriginal story but was different because it was set in space. Lucas doesn’t even hide the fact that he followed a very specific story ark that he didn’t create. People like a story they are familiar with, TLJ does not exactly follow the conventional SW flow and is making people uncomfortable.

Characters not being perfect, making bad calls. Heroes been put in their place by minor characters! Minor characters making sacrifices that are visually beautiful but not with emotional impact! A powerful sith being killed by an erratic sith understudy?! ( not like Sith Lords to get killed being over confident!).

Osmosis Jones

Idea behind the Leia scene is absolutely fine, I'm sure it sounds great in writing, it just looks dumb.

Also watching her float out there when it looked like she was going to die I was only thinking of the quote from Carrie Fisher saying how she wants her obituary to read she was "drowned in moonlight" which is exactly how the scene looked.

Saruhashi

david75 wrote: »

So was luke about to pass into the force at the end of TFA and Rey interrupted him?
Is this why he’s so cranky with her the whole time? He does say I came here to die.
Every time he wears the white robes in TLJ he’s about to do something extreme. And in the end, does, by passing into the force.

Any thoughts?

I really really hope not because that would kind of legitimize the "she lost the will to live" stuff with Padme in Episode 3.