Referring to a Firearm as a Weapon
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The core purpose was hunting back in the bygone days.I merely stated that the original purpose of a rifle was hunting and thats 100% accurate.You are getting very defensive. I didnt try to take your firearms away from you, just making my own observation on why its correct to label them weapons. You are the one that said pretty much anything can be a weapon so use of the word is accurate.
Weapon - A weapon, arm, or armament is any device used with intent to inflict damage or harm to living beings, structures, or systems
The above are the actual definitions of the words. Note the differences. As we are not military, defense forces, police force and having any firearm for self defense is illegal then they are by the definitions above firearms.firearm, sword, crossbow, tank, weapon. Really, whats the fuss over the word used?Section 9 wrote:where a person has with him in any public place any knife or any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed, he shall be guilty of an offence
But wait. The law does not say you are going to inflict harm simply because you have this. t says it's only a weapon IF used with intent. I assume you lack this intent therefore you don't have a weapon but a work tool.
As we (firearm owners), both morally and legally, lack the same intent we have firearms and not weapons. If you want more of a reason then simply look to my earlier post:Cass wrote:People in America don't flinch at the word weapon because their right to them is protected. It is not looked at as a dirty word or taboo topic.
It is here.
[QUOTE- esforum]In your case its for destroying paper targets.[/QUOTE]
That is highly sensationalist and an example of your preconceived ideas about firearms. Not to mention, wrong. We don't destroy paper targets because, well, we won't get any scores for destroying them. The act of target shooting is to be able to record your shots on the paper and get a numerical score from it which is larger than the competitors.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Im pretty sure the current Olympics and the cold war came way way way after the first rifles did so regardless of why your specific model was designed, its based on the original concept.The core purpose was hunting back in the bygone days.I didnt say anything of the sort. I merely stated that the original purpose of a rifle was hunting and thats 100% accurate.
Because "I know it was like that" cuts little ice when you're talking to people who have been doing this for a few decades and who have about the same degree of knowledge of this subject that anyone with a PhD has with theirs.You are getting very defensive.
Oh, no? You didn't? I'm sorry, did you miss the part where I explained what the words you just chose to use actually mean?
This is the reason we take offence - your choice of words is offensive. People who you deliberately offend, they tend to get defensive. It's not about whether or not you're proposing laws to affect us, or whatever whataboutery you're getting on with; it's that you're doing the equivalent to walking up to some random person in the street and calling them a **** and then wondering why they're getting defensive. The problem is you and your choice of word.You are the one that said pretty much anything can be a weapon so use of the word is accurate.
I mean, I could call a random person a prostitute or a paedophile, but they would (rightly) take offense because while they are physically capable of earning those words, we take offense in this society if you apply those labels to someone before those acts are performed.
And when you say we have "weapons" you are specifically and directly stating that we have harmed or killed some person. And that's offensive.0 -
Really, whats the fuss over the word used?
Because the vast majority of people who make the same argument that you're making do so while trying to further restrict firearms ownership.
Also, your argument about the original purpose of rifles is pointless. You seem to be implying that the purpose of an object is set in stone once the first one is made and that any subsequent evolution and/or diversification is irrelevant. Can't you see that that's obviously wrong?0 -
Because the vast majority of people who make the same argument that you're making do so while trying to further restrict firearms ownership.
Also, your argument about the original purpose of rifles is pointless. You seem to be implying that the purpose of an object is set in stone once the first one is made and that any subsequent evolution and/or diversification is irrelevant. Can't you see that that's obviously wrong?
No, Im suggesting that an objects primary reason for existing in the first place is part of its history and therefore description, thats all. Firearms are weapons in my opinion, you dont agree, well hey thats the beauty of a free world.
In regards other comments, well they are just wrong. Rifles were created for hunting, thats history. They existed prior to 1946 and the modern olympics, thats just historical fact as well. No reason to get jumpy about history.
I never called anyone a criminal, the word 'weapon' does not, has not and never will mean mean a criminal act. Look the word up in a dictionary. Every cop that uses a pistol, baton or spray is using a weapon, they dont get fidgety about the word are not utilising their weapons to commit crime.0 -
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No, Im suggesting that an objects primary reason for existing in the first place is part of its history and therefore description, thats all.Firearms are weapons in my opinion, you dont agree, well hey thats the beauty of a free world.In regards other comments, well they are just wrong. Rifles were created for hunting, thats history. They existed prior to 1946 and the modern olympics, thats just historical fact as well. No reason to get jumpy about history.I never called anyone a criminalthe word 'weapon' does not, has not and never will mean mean a criminal act
Which is why when you talk about "my weapons" you are accusing me of a criminal act, which is offensive.
And normally, on a day to day basis, I don't haul people up on that, though it makes me uncomfortable, because I got raised right. But you specifically asked, and have now been told, so either you didn't know and now are just trolling to get a rise out of people, or you were trolling to start with. So knock it off because you're being a dick, and that's kindof the first boards.ie rule you're breaking there.0 -
You might suggest it, but you'd be wrong. Or do you normally swish a capful of floor cleaner around your teeth in the morning? Or cut down trees with a gynecological instrument? Or drive to work in a military vehicle powered by a converted waterwheel?Indeed, but your opinion is wrong. That's the beauty of having written history and verifiable facts and written definitions of the words we use in the contexts of their use.
"A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage:
nuclear weapons
means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict or contest:"
Theres plenty, absolutely plenty of perfectly legal reasons why you may inflict bodily harm or physical damage. You are influcing physical damage when you shoot a hole in your target are you not? That in itself justifies the use of the word
The second, well that could even include words.Indeed. Though we'd probably point out that the modern olympics started in 1896 and not 1946 and that 1946 isn't an Olympic year (1944 and 1948 were, but the '44 games weren't held for obvious reasons). And we'd probably point out that there are many, many historical museums with early firearms in them and they are not hunting firearms because when they were invented, people hunted with bows, not guns, for exactly the same reason that today we go to Tescos in Fords, not Ferraris - money.
Jesus wept, really? You cant equate another users comments regarding the cold war and my reference to 1946? Really? And rifles werent invented for hunting because people were using crossbows because they were cheaper? Prey tell, if thats the case why were cars invented? Bicycles and horses were cheaper and already in use for transport. Rifles were superior to crossbows, therefore overtook them. Kinda how technological advancement works. We used to use rocks, then we had hammers, now we have nail guns.Yes, you did. You just don't understand that you did.No, it does not. It means "the item used to commit a criminal act".
Which is why when you talk about "my weapons" you are accusing me of a criminal act, which is offensive.
And normally, on a day to day basis, I don't haul people up on that, though it makes me uncomfortable, because I got raised right. But you specifically asked, and have now been told, so either you didn't know and now are just trolling to get a rise out of people, or you were trolling to start with. So knock it off because you're being a dick, and that's kindof the first boards.ie rule you're breaking there.
As above, thats not the definition of 'weapon'. Im not breaking any rules, you have though. And again, I stated a simple opinion, not looking to argue just stated an opinion on a messageboard and again, just to be ultra clear, wespon does not equal criminal. I have 2 weapons, I carry them every day. i have used them multiple times to inflict harm on another human being, I am not a criminal nor have I committed a criminal act.
The entire subject is about the use of the term, Im completey on topic. Perhaps this whole thread comes from the misuse of the term 'weapon' and thats fine. Im using the strict dictionary meaning. If you dont want to discuss further, thats fine as well. No issue at all, we can agree to disagree0 -
I never called anyone a criminal, the word 'weapon' does not, has not and never will mean mean a criminal act. Look the word up in a dictionary. Every cop that uses a pistol, baton or spray is using a weapon, they dont get fidgety about the word are not utilising their weapons to commit crime.
A cop is carrying his pistol, baton and spray to inflict bodily harm as and when the need arises. Weapon would be correct in those cases, due to intended use.
A sporting rifles intended use does not define it as a weapon.0 -
Quote them. Oxford dictionary:
"A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage:
nuclear weapons
means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict or contest:"A rifle, pistol, or other portable gunTheres plenty, absolutely plenty of perfectly legal reasons why you may inflict bodily harm or physical damageYou are influcing physical damage when you shoot a hole in your target are you not? That in itself justifies the use of the word
Christ on a bike. This reminds me when Mitt Romney told Obama that the Navy was getting smaller with less ships being buolt now than ever before. Obama said it's because they are evolving with the times. They don't use ships as much. Same with horses, bayonets, etc. and instead concentrate on submarines, aircraft carriers, drones and other new inventions. Then FOX news tried to defend their Republican candidate by claiming that some soldiers used horses in Afghanistan and some still carry bayonets.
IOW they grasped at straws.And rifles werent invented for hunting because people were using crossbows because they were cheaper?Prey tell, if thats the case why were cars invented? Bicycles and horses were cheaper and already in use for transport.
Or do you think a horse can swim the Atlantic carrying 10,000 tons of cargo?Rifles were superior to crossbows, therefore overtook them. Kinda how technological advancement works. We used to use rocks, then we had hammers, now we have nail guns.
So the principle remains the same.
When i go clay pigeon shooting i bring 200 - 500 cartridges. My Father used to mock me for this. Ho told me that when growing up they could not afford cartridges in the amount i buy and use. He would go out with two cartridges and must bring back two kills. That is rural Ireland only 50 years ago.I really didnt, as outlined above. The use of the term 'weapon' does not infer illegal activity. I stated a prime example in my previous post as to why not, namely police officers.As above, thats not the definition of 'weapon'. Im not breaking any rules, you have though. And again, I stated a simple opinion, not looking to argue just stated an opinion on a messageboard and again, just to be ultra clear, wespon does not equal criminal.I have 2 weapons, I carry them every day. i have used them multiple times to inflict harm on another human being, I am not a criminal nor have I committed a criminal act.The entire subject is about the use of the term, Im completey on topic. Perhaps this whole thread comes from the misuse of the term 'weapon' and thats fine. Im using the strict dictionary meaning. If you dont want to discuss further, thats fine as well. No issue at all, we can agree to disagreeForum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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I cycle actually. Thats a bike, its primary use being transport even though some people use them for sport.Theres plenty, absolutely plenty of perfectly legal reasons why you may inflict bodily harm or physical damage.You are influcing physical damage when you shoot a hole in your target are you not?Jesus wept, really?
So if you want to quote dates, please do, but quote the right ones.And rifles werent invented for hunting because people were using crossbows because they were cheaper?
And yes, they were using bows because you can make a longbow yourself but a firearm at that time was a major operation because you couldn't call up to a light engineering company and order a metal tube, you had to start by mining the ore and smelting it yourself.Prey tell, if thats the case why were cars invented? Bicycles and horses were cheaper and already in use for transport.Rifles were superior to crossbows, therefore overtook them.Kinda how technological advancement works. We used to use rocks, then we had hammers, now we have nail guns.
Or that you buy a 700 euro plus Makita nail gun to put up a single nail to hang a picture and then put it away for ten years because that's all the DIY you'll ever do.I really didnt, as outlined above. The use of the term 'weapon' does not infer illegal activity.
There are words for that kind of behaviour and they're not nice words.just to be ultra clear, wespon does not equal criminal. I have 2 weapons, I carry them every day. i have used them multiple times to inflict harm on another human being, I am not a criminal nor have I committed a criminal act.Im using the strict dictionary meaning0 -
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Cass,
Have you completely missed the point on purpose? I am being attacked because I refer to a pistol / firearm as a weapon. regardless of the level of physical harm, harm is caused by your firearm on the paper, therefore it fits the definition of a weapon.
Offence was taken because according to the mods here, weapons are only ever used in crime. I have given a very specific example of when thats not true. You insist that theres no legal way to exert physical harm on someone. really?
Self Defence.
CPR
Arrest by police
Target practice
Paintball
Training
All legal and all causing physical harm by physical force. The level of force doesnt change it.
I stated I carried and used weapons legally every day and your reply is another reference to being banned. Again, you cant think of a time when use of force might be legitimately applied in someones job? really? Miltary, Gardai, Paramedics, firemen and security would all use force on a regular basis.
As for firearm / weapon / pistol / etc. At this stage, whatever.0 -
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/weapon
My original post is there for all to read. Can you please, I repeat please point out a definition that states a weapon is for criminal purposes only
Sparks, Try reading section 18 and 19, Non fatal offences against the person Act 1997. More than a few examples of legal force.
in regards the second time you claimed a Garda can arrest for carrying anything they think can be used as a weapon, thats just not true at all. Read Section 9 and Section 10, Firearms and offensive weapons Act 1990. Theres a whole set of stuff that has to be met for a crime to have been committed
The simple reality here, as per the Oxford dictionary is that a firearm is a weapon, it meets the criteria and theres plenty of legal ways to use force. thats all, thats it. I have nothing else to say. I didnt intend to offend and really, I cant be blamed because you take offence at a word that you are misusing.0 -
Cass,
Have you completely missed the point on purpose?I am being attacked because I refer to a pistol / firearm as a weapon.regardless of the level of physical harm, harm is caused by your firearm on the paper, therefore it fits the definition of a weapon.
If the answer to all the above is none, that is because it's PAPER. It cannot be injured, harmed or wounded. Another example of your bastardisation of words.Offence was taken because according to the mods here, weapons are only ever used in crime. I have given a very specific example of when thats not true. You insist that theres no legal way to exert physical harm on someone.really?Self Defence.CPRArrest by policeTarget practice
Also FYI target shooters are not even allowed to use human shaped targets.PaintballTrainingAll legal and all causing physical harm by physical force. The level of force doesnt change it.I stated I carried and used weapons legally every day and your reply is another reference to being banned.
You are talking about carrying weapons and harming others, and as i know what a weapon is, but don't know what harm you are causing i can only infer you are admitting to criminality. The discussion of criminality is banned on Boards.ie and this forum.Again, you cant think of a time when use of force might be legitimately applied in someones job? really?MiltaryGardai,Paramedics,firemenand securitywould all use force on a regular basis.As for firearm / weapon / pistol / etc. At this stage, whatever.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/firearmas per the Oxford dictionary is that a firearm is a weaponForum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Gardai and police are civilians. Gardai are entitled to use firearms in self defence.
Weapon is defined as an object used to apply physical force. Firearms apply physical force.
I have quoted the dictionary and specific acts you have. Cited nothing yet0 -
Gardai and police?
Not to mention the idea that Gardai don't have specific rules and laws to adhere to and can't be specified special cases in law because they're not military is fairly disturbing when thought about.
And you still have cited nothing correctly, still have not grasped the whole point that the definition in law and general use stems from intent and not what the object is, nor that you are being offensive.
Enough with the trolling, in other words.0 -
Gardai and police are civilians.Gardai are entitled to use firearms in self defence.
They are not armed. If you are referring to the Armed Garda unit(s) well they are only called when a situation requires their presence. At that point it's not self defense, and why they must get authorisation before firing a shot.Weapon is defined as an object used to apply physical force. Firearms apply physical force.I have quoted the dictionary and specific acts you have.Cited nothing yet- All firearms are weapons
- They are the same thing
- All rifles/firearms were originally designed for hunting
- Gardaí can use them for self defense (you know, our unarmed force)
- Security guards, paramedics, firemen can use them
- etc, etc.
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I merely stated that the original purpose of a rifle was hunting and thats 100% accurate.
"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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A cop is carrying his pistol, baton and spray to inflict bodily harm as and when the need arises. Weapon would be correct in those cases, due to intended use.
A sporting rifles intended use does not define it as a weapon.
Factually incorrect and an interpretation of use of force in complete and utter contradiction of law, common law and international law.
Not a single police officer carries any equipment with the intention of inflicting bodily harm.
Police officers carry their equipment to protect themselves and others from acts of unlawful violence and if such acts take place to stop them with a minimum justifiable use of necessary force.
Success is complete in absence of (serious ) injuries and fatalities and lawful goals achieved.0 -
Oh FFS, post gone and told to login again. Jesus Christ. Right not doing it all again so in short:
Oxford English dictionary:
Firearm:A rifle, pistol, or other portable gun.
Gun: A weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise."
Weapon: "A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage"
Force: Strength or energy as an attribute of physical action or movement
You have a firearm, its defined as including a gun, a gun is defined as a weapon. You use it to break or damage targets. Thats physical damage.
Section 4, Firearms and offensive weapons Act 1990: "In the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 1990, “firearm” means—
(a) a lethal firearm or other lethal weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged"
Gardai are the only police: No, we also have Airport police and Harbour police. (http://www.dublinairport.com/gns/at-the-airport/airport_police_service.aspx) and (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Harbour_Police)
Gardai are unarmed: Well according to the firearms Act pepper spray is a firearm and they carry that (http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-pepper-spray-homeless-man-dublin-investigation-2087623-May2015/)
Armed Gardai only arrive afterwards and cant use firearms for self defence while also requiring prior authorisation: Nonsence, complete and utter nonsense. Heres 3 examples: (http://www.thejournal.ie/ombudsman-rules-that-garda-shooting-in-lusk-was-lawful-257964-Oct2011/) and (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/raiders-under-surveillance-from-elite-garda-units-1.764498) and (http://www.thejournal.ie/ronan-machlochlainn-2318130-Sep2015/)
Theres no legal allowance for the use of physical force: Section 18, Non fatal offences Against the person Act 19997 " The use of force by a person for any of the following purposes, if only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be, does not constitute an offence—
(a) to protect himself or herself or a member of the family of that person or another from injury, assault or detention caused by a criminal act; or
(b) to protect himself or herself or (with the authority of that other) another from trespass to the person; or
(c) to protect his or her property from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act or from trespass or infringement; or
(d) to protect property belonging to another from appropriation, destruction or damage caused by a criminal act or (with the authority of that other) from trespass or infringement; or
(e) to prevent crime or a breach of the peace."
What else? Oh, I never said paramedics or firemen or security use firearms. I said they use force. CPR is force. restraining a shoplifter is force. Firemen kicking in doors is using force.
Anything more? Oh yes, targets. By breaking the paper target you are causing physical damage. You are also carrying a firearm. You are however not committing a crime as you are licensed and granted exemptions to do so in certain circumstances. Definitions however remain the same, theres no requirement in 'force' that it be unwelcome or against a person. Thats needed for 'Assault' not 'force'.
History of firearms: Long long before 16th century but I may be wrong on being for hunting, it appears it may also have been for war. Still, my point remains the same (http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com.es/) and (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm) and (http://www.nramuseum.com/gun-info-research/a-brief-history-of-firearms.aspx) and finally, (http://www.americanfirearms.org/gun-history/).
Dont be offended by a word guys, really its only a word and doesnt even mean to be offensive. I get called a lot of things, doesnt effect me.0 -
meathstevie wrote: »Factually incorrect and an interpretation of use of force in complete and utter contradiction of law, common law and international law.
Not a single police officer carries any equipment with the intention of inflicting bodily harm.
Police officers carry their equipment to protect themselves and others from acts of unlawful violence and if such acts take place to stop them with a minimum justifiable use of necessary force.
Success is complete in absence of (serious ) injuries and fatalities and lawful goals achieved.
Do you mean to say that a cops pistol (and I said "cop" referring to a police officer in the USA) is not a weapon?
I may have been a bit loose with my words, as I did not intent to suggest that cops go out with the intent to cause bodily harm, but when required, their spray, baton, pistol etc may be used and would therefore be seen as weapons.0 -
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Surprised to see you back. Thought you weren't going to post again.
I'm going to shorten this down because you're a troll and i'm bored entertaining you.
We use firearms in sports shooting. Our licenses say firearm, the acts that govern their use is called the firearms act, even An Gardaí website call it the firearm home page. Weapon, when used incorrectly, is a word for ignorant and uneducated people. It's designed to illicit a reaction from the shooting community and inflame any debate.esforum wrote:Dont be offended by a word guys, really its only a word and doesnt even mean to be offensive. I get called a lot of things, doesnt effect me.
So that ends now.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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So no one is confused as to whether i'm posting as a Mod or not i'm separating my posts.
This debate is over due to trolling and the continued use of offensive terms. Despite repeated attempts to educate the thread has gone from "Are they firearms or Weapons" to some random thoughts on "force", "destroying targets", admissions to possible criminality by inflicting harm with weapons, etc.
We're going in circles and i can see no end to the thread so i'm closing it and requesting a review to see if the thread warrants editing, re-opening, etc.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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