arthritis advice and other bits

sillysmiles

Our overly spoilt lab has for the past few weeks not been putting his full weight on one of his back legs. It was only noticeable when you are drying his paws when he is coming in (tell me I'm not the only one that does this?)

In the mornings. he was stiff getting out of his bed.

So off to the vets. She said that she suspects arthritis and that he is a bit sore in his joints, but there is no ligament damage.

He is an ex-poundie so no real idea of history or age. He was x-ray in March and he was aged at 4-5 from the xray.

He is on anti-inflammatories for 10 days and reduced exercise for 20 days to ease this bout. Then to slowly rebuild his exercise. (he normally gets 1.5 hrs/day). Even the days he was sore, he still loved doing zoomies around the garden so he is not relishing the reduced exercise at all.

Given that he is only 5-6 we are now looking at managing his condition.
He is on the markus muhler food and salmon oil and now I'm going to add luposan to the next food order.

I think, when funds allow, I'd like to change or get him a new bed. He is a lab but not as tall as a normal lab. Is there a rule of thumb re dogs height and bed dimensions?

Is there anything else I should be thinking about?

I don't want to overly restrict him*, he is still a young dog and full of life.

*Once this limited exercise period is over.

cocker5

sillysmiles wrote: »

Our overly spoilt lab has for the past few weeks not been putting his full weight on one of his back legs. It was only noticeable when you are drying his paws when he is coming in (tell me I'm not the only one that does this?)

In the mornings. he was stiff getting out of his bed.

So off to the vets. She said that she suspects arthritis and that he is a bit sore in his joints, but there is no ligament damage.

He is an ex-poundie so no real idea of history or age. He was x-ray in March and he was aged at 4-5 from the xray.

He is on anti-inflammatories for 10 days and reduced exercise for 20 days to ease this bout. Then to slowly rebuild his exercise. (he normally gets 1.5 hrs/day). Even the days he was sore, he still loved doing zoomies around the garden so he is not relishing the reduced exercise at all.

Given that he is only 5-6 we are now looking at managing his condition.
He is on the markus muhler food and salmon oil and now I'm going to add luposan to the next food order.

I think, when funds allow, I'd like to change or get him a new bed. He is a lab but not as tall as a normal lab. Is there a rule of thumb re dogs height and bed dimensions?

Is there anything else I should be thinking about?

I don't want to overly restrict him*, he is still a young dog and full of life.

*Once this limited exercise period is over.

My guy who I nearly 11 has had bad shoulders for a good few years now – this was mainly down to running 6k each night with mw on the roads for years 

Have you considered supplements to help him with his joints?

My guys is on Luposan the strong pellets and salmon oil – both have helped him a lot – more limping etc.
I been using both for a good few years now and they have really helped him:

http://www.zooplus.ie/shop/dogs/supplements_specialty_food/bones_joints/luposan/129097

http://www.zooplus.ie/shop/cats/supplements_specialty_cat_food/fur_skin_supplements/127318

while the initial outflow of funds is around €60 for both – they last me 6 months plus so def. worth it.

I don’t want to go down the road of anti-inflammatory / medication until its def. necessary for him.

With regard to his bed I posted her about 8 months ago he was slow at getting up out of bed… his old bed was a round plastic bed with plenty of vet bed and blankets.. so I changed him over to an doggies orthopaedic bed see below:

And I have to say it’s the best purchase EVER – he adores it… can’t get him out of it in fact.
He is no longer slow and getting out etc.… its brilliant, it’s by far my best purchase for him so far…. – highly recommend.

http://www.zooplus.ie/shop/dogs/dog_beds_baskets/square/ortho_memory/206850

Now I did buy the big one… which is MASSIVE for my cocker – but my god he is in love with his new bed!

cocker5

sorry just read again.. he's already on the salmon oil... the luposan will def help but make sure you get the super concentrated pellets as per my link they are the best version of Luposan you can get - best of luck

awanderer

So sorry about your lab Sillysmile. I am not an expert in nutrition nor vetinerary care but have a lab and like a lot of labs he suffers for permanent extreme starvation so even if we live near the sea and my dog is the most walked dog around, we have to continuously fight against ourselves not to give in and give him treats. He is around 4 1/2 (we were told he was 2 when we adopted him from a rescue) and I imagine that as time goes by and he becomes less active the fight to keep him slim will get even harder. You stated that your dog is overly spoilt, could that also mean that he is also spoilt with food? With arthritis in animals like in humans (and due to family history I sadly know a bit about that) losing weight is often the first remedy (every serious website about arthritis mentions it as a first step) and how much your dog eats is at least as important as what he eats. I have seen it clearly with humans: 2 of my aunts have been suffering from arthritis and for a long time they had the same level of movement, one decided to lose weight and is still active, the other decided her arthritis prevented her from losing weight and is now in a wheelchair.
Of course, arthritis is a medical condition and not something self i flicted so please do not believe that I am accusing you of being responsible for your dog's ailment in anyway. I just wanted to emphasise the importance of weight control with that issue as I know weight is a big problem with labs.

sillysmiles

When we got him he was around 25-26kg. A year later (in Nov) he was up to 28kg (as you say - that permanently starved look + being treated trained). On Monday he was down to 27kg. He could do with losing another 1-2kg I think, but the vet did say he isn't bad. He has a waist, looks malnourished beside other labs! With him being on restricted exercise at the moment, we've cut back his food too. His food gets weighed out so less chance of over feeding.

tk123

You need to be tough OP and restrict him until you see an improvement. Especially if he's on pain killers that are going to mask the pain and let him do more damage(!)

Bailey pulled muscles just over 2 months ago and it's only in the last week that he's stopped limping or being stiff in the evenings!
He's 6 and had both his back legs straightened a year apart so we had cage rest and restriction for 12+weeks 4 and 5 years ago. He's generally pain and anti-inflammatory free and I want to keep him that way for as long as possible.


The first change was keeping him on lead for his own good until he improved - no 5 mins off at the end of the walk to run around like I had been doing while he was sore feeling sorry for him. I plan on keeping him on the rest of the week and then trying him off for a few mins at the weekend and see how he gets on and hopefully build back up from there - he would have been off for an hour before he hurt himself without any issues. I've been using a flexi lead so he can have a wander without going mad and he's generally been fine. There's been a few frustrated cry-barks where he really wanted to chase a squirrel but fine apart from that he's been very good


Second change - putting him back on turmeric golden paste. I've been slowly increasing it and I think I have the dose right now at 1.5 teaspoons with his breakfast and dinner has made a huge difference. The day after I increased it he improved. Could be a combination of everything but it really seems to have helped.

Third change - the worse days for him being lame were when it was raining so I've had a coat on him to keep his bum warm where he pulled the muscles!:o It can be quite damp both where we live and in the different spots we walk in. He doesn't mind the coat at all so this was an easy one

Next change will be getting him back to hydro! We had to stop after his jaw surgery because he wasn't happy being handled so going to try a different place when the weather improves.. I just know the county roads around the place will decide to flood the day we have an appointment lol!

As for beds - we have Hi-K9s which both of them love!

Meemars

Hi OP. I have an older LabX who came to us from a rescue 4.5 yrs ago. They estimated at the time that she might be about 8 yrs old.
She was pretty tubby and very stiff when we got her, so we started taking her swimming and feeding a senior food with joint supplements. We settled on Barking Heads Golden Years - she loves it, and it really suits her! I also now include a Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplement daily,
After 2 walks a day (gentle at first) and additional swims, and controlled diet (still includes a few treats, I'm not a monster!) she lost all the excess weight, and the rescue owner didn't recognise her 4 months later!
Most importantly, she is no longer stiff in her elbows, unless she really overdoes it on the running around.
She no longer acts like an old dog, I've revised her guesstimated age to about 10 years now. Not bad for a dog who might have been 8, 4.5 years ago!
We live near a river and close to the sea, so her swimmy-labbyness gets full expression. She loves the water, even in the depths of winter, and I dry her when she comes out.

As regards bed, she has a foam bed, but most of the time she spends on her own (!) armchair. See? Spoiled rotten...

In general though, swimming really helped her weight loss, and joint supplements could be of benefit! Best of luck, I really hope your doggie improves.

cocker5

tk123 wrote: »

You need to be tough OP and restrict him until you see an improvement. Especially if he's on pain killers that are going to mask the pain and let him do more damage(!)

Bailey pulled muscles just over 2 months ago and it's only in the last week that he's stopped limping or being stiff in the evenings!
He's 6 and had both his back legs straightened a year apart so we had cage rest and restriction for 12+weeks 4 and 5 years ago. He's generally pain and anti-inflammatory free and I want to keep him that way for as long as possible.


The first change was keeping him on lead for his own good until he improved - no 5 mins off at the end of the walk to run around like I had been doing while he was sore feeling sorry for him. I plan on keeping him on the rest of the week and then trying him off for a few mins at the weekend and see how he gets on and hopefully build back up from there - he would have been off for an hour before he hurt himself without any issues. I've been using a flexi lead so he can have a wander without going mad and he's generally been fine. There's been a few frustrated cry-barks where he really wanted to chase a squirrel but fine apart from that he's been very good


Second change - putting him back on turmeric golden paste. I've been slowly increasing it and I think I have the dose right now at 1.5 teaspoons with his breakfast and dinner has made a huge difference. The day after I increased it he improved. Could be a combination of everything but it really seems to have helped.

Third change - the worse days for him being lame were when it was raining so I've had a coat on him to keep his bum warm where he pulled the muscles!:o It can be quite damp both where we live and in the different spots we walk in. He doesn't mind the coat at all so this was an easy one

Next change will be getting him back to hydro! We had to stop after his jaw surgery because he wasn't happy being handled so going to try a different place when the weather improves.. I just know the county roads around the place will decide to flood the day we have an appointment lol!

As for beds - we have Hi-K9s which both of them love!

i do realise this is terribly lazy BUT is there anywhere you can buy the paste?

Thanks

tk123

cocker5 wrote: »

i do realise this is terribly lazy BUT is there anywhere you can buy the paste?

Thanks

Only in Australia I think lol It takes 5 mins

Latatian

Keep him on-lead and don't let him bounce, had to learn that the hard way with my own arthritic labrador. Zoomies are the enemy!

The anti-inflammatories worked well. Swimming helps too if you can find somewhere he can get into and out of the water easily- somewhere with a gentle slope. Keeping the weight down is hugely important, they'll stay mobile a lot longer if you keep them slim. Lots of short walks are much better than one big one, particularly if you get a softer surface like grass or something for him to walk on. If you can find somewhere to walk the dog through water that'll help too. Never seen anyone as excited about floods as my lab has been the last few weeks!

TK123- that'll be great, surely, you can all swim and wade to hydrotherapy?

Information on supplements here and here. I did a lot of research on them when my dog first got sick, read the evidence and the studies and such, and based on that I didn't give her anything like that but did do a lot of gentle exercise, walking her through water etc and the stuff above. She's doing very well.

maggiepip

cocker5 wrote: »

i do realise this is terribly lazy BUT is there anywhere you can buy the paste?

Thanks

Its the Curcumin in the Turmeric that you want absorbed , thats the active ingredient in Turmeric. You can by pass the preparation by using Curcumin capsules which are absorbable. I use Doctors Best curcumin phytosome from iherb online, I just sprinkle a capsule on the dogs dinner. There's no real taste off them either.

maggiepip

Sillysmiles, you should ask your vet about Cartrophen Vet, they're injections and you start with a course of 1 injection a week for 4 weeks. Sometimes thats enough to do the dog for 6 months to a year. They are fantastic in managing arthritis discomfort and slowing the progression of it. They are also extremely safe with virtually no serious side effects. My Lab has been on them for the past 6 years for her hips, and shes still brilliant at 11 years of age. Im convinced she would not be anywhere near as well as she is now but for the Cartrphen.

Tranceypoo

tk123 wrote:

I've been slowly increasing it and I think I have the dose right now at 1.5 teaspoons with his breakfast and dinner has made a huge difference. The day after I increased it he improved. Could be a combination of everything but it really seems to have helped.

And is it just the normal Tumeric you buy in the supermarket in the herb section?!

tk123

Tranceypoo wrote: »

And is it just the normal Tumeric you buy in the supermarket in the herb section?!

It should be organic. I got it on Amazon.

bluecherry74

Holistic Hound do the golden paste and are based in Ireland.

http://www.holistichound.ie/#!product/prd1/3892350021/golden-paste

tk123

bluecherry74 wrote: »

Holistic Hound do the golden paste and are based in Ireland.

http://www.holistichound.ie/#!product/prd1/3892350021/golden-paste

Isn't it only meant to last something 2 weeks in the fridge though so I wonder if buying it like that would be as effective? I have mine frozen and made it with olive rather that coconut oil to cut down the cat wee smell and so far so good. When it was fresh out of the fridge and made with cocnut oil and even with the cinnamon added Bailey stunk of cats wee and it didn't go away like they say it will.

AryaStark

Tranceypoo wrote: »

And is it just the normal Tumeric you buy in the supermarket in the herb section?!

You can get an organic one from Holland and Barrett (health food store!)

cocker5

Hi Guys I emailed Holistic Hounds this morning and she got back to me within a few mints... here's what Jo says :

The paste needs to be kept refrigerated and is recommended to use within 4 weeks of opening. For a 20kg dog a pouch generally lasts around 3 - 4 weeks. The pouches can however also be frozen so you can just take out the next one when needed; alternatively the unopened pouches can also sit in your fridge quite happily for a month or so before opening.

Im going to order some today

(Yes i know I am totally lazy)

tk123

There's a good group on FB although remove it from your news feed as it's very very busy - https://www.facebook.com/groups/415313751866609/

Frozen works much better for us anyways - no more yellow stains everywhere! You'll see what I mean lol

cocker5

thanks TK123 for all your advice... on the tumeric paste and the plague off

sillysmiles

Thanks everyone.

We live near lots of canals, so swimming is an option, it's just finding the right place to let him in and out. That maybe a job for Saturday.

RE the injection, the vet said that if he is still in pain after this round of anti-inflammatories and rest then it is something we can look at.

Tumeric paste + luposan? Is only one required? Thanks again guys.

cocker5

sillysmiles wrote: »

Thanks everyone.

We live near lots of canals, so swimming is an option, it's just finding the right place to let him in and out. That maybe a job for Saturday.

RE the injection, the vet said that if he is still in pain after this round of anti-inflammatories and rest then it is something we can look at.

Tumeric paste + luposan? Is only one required? Thanks again guys.

Not too sure if only one is needed - but im currently giving my guy Luposan and have also ordered the Tumeric paste they can be used together.. personally i would try both - two is better than one

I did ask the lady in Holistic Hounds just to make sure:

absolutely fine adding in the Golden paste in addition to what you are already giving - the salmon oil is a great essential fatty acid so does more than just help with the joints, and the luposan uses the green lipped mussel extract which is the other major recommended joint aid, and contains a good number of other great herbs including nettle and dandelion for moving things through the body too, so all organs and body systems are well supported.

tk123

You could try one or both - whatever you want! The paste is so simple though and has really made a difference for Bailey so I'll be continuing with it. I had been using it in a tub in the fridge and then from seeing posts on the FB loads of people were using silicon mats and freezing it.. I was queueing in homestore and more on day and low and behold it was one of the mats so I got it to try...which didn't happen for months lol because we were worried about the wee smell but you can barely smell it from him.. The garden stinks though lol!

The difference has really been amazing in 1-2 weeks - last month I was really worried because he seemed to be getting worse but he's definitely on the mend!

Oh I also got him a magnetic collar lol - didn't see how it could hurt so why not. The catch is crap on the one I got though...but I thought it looked nicer than bioforce ones haha - I tied it with elastic to reinforce it. (I get amazon vouchers sometimes in work - they all go on the doggies! )

sillysmiles

The wee smell??????
As in the paste smells like wee or it does funny things to the smell of their wee?

tk123

sillysmiles wrote: »

The wee smell??????
As in the paste smells like wee or it does funny things to the smell of their wee?

The can start to smell of cats wee(!) and their wee gets whiffy too. They say it should go away after a few weeks but it was 3 months last time when I stopped giving it to Bailey because he reeked - even with the cinnamon they tell you to add. That was with coconut oil - somebody suggested I try virgin olive oil instead and you can barely smell it off him this time around! Thank god!

Inexile

Thanks for the info Cocker 5. Have just ordered the supplements and salmon oil for my collie who has arthritis in her toe and will also us it for my older grey whose back legs are getting a bit stiff.

cocker5

Inexile wrote: »

Thanks for the info Cocker 5. Have just ordered the supplements and salmon oil for my collie who has arthritis in her toe and will also us it for my older grey whose back legs are getting a bit stiff.

Best of luck - it takes around a month or so but you will see a difference 😀

I adding the golden paste to my guys food this week too.. So I'll post with an update on that shortly !

tk123

I let Bailey off lead for a few mins on Sat (in hindsight in a bad spot) - he ran wild and was lame over the weekend (Sorry for the hijack OP)

sillysmiles

hijack away!

I've had a grumpy dog all weekend. Refusing to obey basic commands at times and refusing to come back into the house. How people live with under exercised dogs all the time I don't know.

I'm currently debating whether to buy this. http://www.zooplus.de/shop/hunde/hundebett/gesundheits_betten/gelenkprobleme/185071
€80 is steep - especially if the cat pees on it but it looks well cosy.

tk123

sillysmiles wrote: »

hijack away!

I've had a grumpy dog all weekend. Refusing to obey basic commands at times and refusing to come back into the house. How people live with under exercised dogs all the time I don't know.

I'm currently debating whether to buy this. http://www.zooplus.de/shop/hunde/hundebett/gesundheits_betten/gelenkprobleme/185071
€80 is steep - especially if the cat pees on it but it looks well cosy.

That would be wrecked with my mucky pups!! The Hi-K9s are great - I have the mesh ones and then vet bed/blankets on top for Bailey - Lucy prefers just the mesh!
I'm going to take him to hydro this week if possible. I'd love to just go back to the old place 10 mins away but muzzling to lift him in just doesn't feel right any more so will take time off work and go to the other one if I can get a slot!

cocker5

sillysmiles wrote: »

hijack away!

I've had a grumpy dog all weekend. Refusing to obey basic commands at times and refusing to come back into the house. How people live with under exercised dogs all the time I don't know.

I'm currently debating whether to buy this. http://www.zooplus.de/shop/hunde/hundebett/gesundheits_betten/gelenkprobleme/185071
€80 is steep - especially if the cat pees on it but it looks well cosy.

This is the bed i have for my cocker - no dirty paws in sight to be honest...

I wash it every week anyway (im a bit of a tidy freak - nothing to do with it being dirty) and it zips off... takes 30 seconds.. very easily washed in the washing machine / dries in a matter of hours its by far the best purchase I've ever made and that the truth - on the plus side my guy adores it too.

They reason why i didnt buy the K9 beds is while they are rasied off the ground which is good etc they are not soft and no back etc my guy like the "cave" beds plus he sits and rest his head on the side arms.. he cant do that on the K9

here are two pics of him loving his bed... its hard to see him as he is black. but you'll get the idea, he adores it and its pretty clean 99% of the time

Cody2.jpg

Cody1.jpg

P1nkSheep

My staffy-collie cross was diagnosed with arthritis last year, she had just turned 4 so a young dog too. Its not very fun as it cant be cured and will unfortunately get worse as the years progress but there are many things you can do to to help as much as possible. Heres a few tips that have worked with my doggy;

I used to run with her (5k max) so have stopped that and no massive hikes anymore but she can still go on relatively long walks. Keeping an arthritic dog as active as possible is important to stop things seizing up and keep their weight down.

She takes a tablet of Synoquin each day (glucosamine) prescribed by the vets.

Although she wasnt really overweight I was instructed to get her to lose quite a bit - as light and lean as possible so the least amount of weight and pressure on her legs. She lost 4kg in the end.

I give a small teaspoon of coconut oil each day - helps reduce inflammation.

She had hydrotherapy (also tore her cruciate ligament hence why the hydrotherapy. It wasnt a great year for my dog!) which helped the back arthritic legs build some really good muscle. Also hydrotherpay is a fantastic excersise as non weight bearing yet tiring.

Carthophen injections - she was last due another full round rather than the 3 monthly booster in December but shes doing so well that just the booster was sufficient. The vet should avoid giving the full set of injections when possible.

Supposedly grain free food is beneficial as it helps with the inflammation. I am currently trialling this, seems good so far though.


All of these combined and she is doing fantastic to this time last year. I hope this helps a little.

cocker5

Just in case anyone is going to order the tumeric paste from holistic hounds link above.. She is running 15% off for one week.. Code is 'love15'

Inexile

Ok my salmon oil and Luposan arrived today. Only problem is the packaging on the Luposan is in German!. I reckon that Im supposed to give my collie who is under 20kg a half measure. Will be off to Google Translate later.

Oh and I did order of the zooplus uk site and the packaging on the salmon oil is in English.

cocker5

Inexile wrote: »

Ok my salmon oil and Luposan arrived today. Only problem is the packaging on the Luposan is in German!. I reckon that Im supposed to give my collie who is under 20kg a half measure. Will be off to Google Translate later.

Oh and I did order of the zooplus uk site and the packaging on the salmon oil is in English.

dont worry my guy is 17kg and i just sprinkle like a small handfull in his food each day... like 20 pellets or so...


https://luposan-iberica.com/index.php/en/gelenkkraft-granules-pellets/

1 measuring spoon is about 10 gr. (attached in the package)

Weight Daily Amount
Up to 10 kg 1/4 measure
Up to 20 kg 1/2 measure
Up to 30 kg 3/4 measure
More than 30 kg 1 measure
More than 60 kg 2 measure

sillysmiles

So when I started this thread the vet has diagnosed arthritis and put him on anti inflammatories for 10 days. On the evening of the 11th day, he gave a slight wobble standing up, on the morning of the 12th day he was back to being stiff getting out of bed.
So I rang that vet and back in we went and last Saturday she examined him and started him on a course of steroid injections, with (alot) of oral steroids as well. He was pretty whacked for the first day or so. She now thinks it is he cruciate ligament. It's not ruptured just sore. He is in for his second shot tomorrow and I'm hoping to start him back walking. The vet is advocating hydrotherapy which sounds great, but I simply can't afford it at the moment. The poor fecker is bored out of his mind and feeling completely off form and so hungry (even more so than normal for a lab).
So cruciate ligaments - tell me all about it. Anyone any experience of what to expect?

andreac

sillysmiles wrote: »

.
So cruciate ligaments - tell me all about it. Anyone any experience of what to expect?

What would you like to know?

Ive had 2 dogs that had the surgery. Will you be looking for info about this?

What breed is your dog again?

sillysmiles

He is a lab. About 5-6 years old.

So, is surgery an inevitability? Ballpark how much does it cost (so I can start factoring that in)? Are there particular vets that specialise in this? How long (in your case) was the process from lame, to ruptured to surgery to better?
Did they make a full recovery?

I was thinking of taking him to the beach on Saturday to get him into the water, just our of his depth to get him to swim a bit. I get it will do both his body and his mental health the world of good.

sillysmiles

Double post deleted

andreac

sillysmiles wrote: »

He is a lab. About 5-6 years old.

So, is surgery an inevitability? Ballpark how much does it cost (so I can start factoring that in)? Are there particular vets that specialise in this? How long (in your case) was the process from lame, to ruptured to surgery to better?
Did they make a full recovery?

I was thinking of taking him to the beach on Saturday to get him into the water, just our of his depth to get him to swim a bit. I get it will do both his body and his mental health the world of good.

Ok, with a dog that size, yes surgery is necessary if its ruptured. Cost is huge, well it all depends on where you go, but Viktor recently had a TPLO done in UCD and the bill was €2400, with another €200 this week for his 6 week check up and he has to go back in another 6 weeks for hopefully the final check up. Thankfully, he is insured and all costs were covered.

Im sure surgery costs will vary depending on what procedure you go for and where it is done.
Recovery, you are looking at a minimum of 12 weeks, with cage rest, on lead walks only etc and no playing with other dogs.

I would be inclined not to bring him to the beach unless the exercise is restricted to very little and certainly no off lead whatsoever.
If you have anymore queries at all just shout

sillysmiles

At the moment , it isn't ruptured (TG). The vet thinks the shots will help stabilise the joint and help him get back on his feet. So we will know more in another week or so. fingers crossed he doesn't need surgery any time soon!