Is is not discrimination ?

Mrs OBumble

However note that the OP is not only talking about themself. They're talking about a general trend in the company. Many of the foreign staff are likely to be EU citizens and thus not subject to work permits.

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

However note that the OP is not only talking about themself. They're talking about a general trend in the company. Many of the foreign staff are likely to be EU citizens and thus not subject to work permits.

He specificly stated they were Asians and Africans
What do you need to believe that Irish businesses aren't being racist
No employer wants anyone but the best fit promoted or hired

Stheno

Tigger wrote: »

He specificly stated they were Asians and Africans
What do you need to believe that Irish businesses aren't being racist
No employer wants anyone but the best fit promoted or hired

True, everyone he referenced was a non EU employee.

The visa issue could make sense as to why they act as they do, and if so, whilst not illegal, it's a little underhanded not to at least say "we can't promote you as you are non Eu and your Visa will be invalid as we can hire Irish/EU people to carry out more senior work.

I can think of at least one company where this is currently the case, a fairly large company as well. Very large non EU population at junior levels, but once the visa expires, they simply hire in new staff or renew the visa at that level, but little chance of promotion due to the visa status.

Tigger

Stheno wrote: »

True, everyone he referenced was a non EU employee.

The visa issue could make sense as to why they act as they do, and if so, whilst not illegal, it's a little underhanded not to at least say "we can't promote you as you are non Eu and your Visa will be invalid as we can hire Irish/EU people to carry out more senior work.

I can think of at least one company where this is currently the case, a fairly large company as well. Very large non EU population at junior levels, but once the visa expires, they simply hire in new staff or renew the visa at that level, but little chance of promotion due to the visa status.

Yeah but that's business, not nice business but it's motivated by game theory and rule following not racism

strandroad

Stheno wrote: »

True, everyone he referenced was a non EU employee.
.

Or rather, was a non EU born employee. Citizenship is much easier to obtain these days.

Tigger

mhge wrote: »

Or rather, was a non EU born employee. Citizenship is much easier to obtain these days.

Good, again shows a lack of racism in business
I asked what his personal position is if he is a citizen then that means more but I doubt it after 2 years

Stheno

Tigger wrote: »

Yeah but that's business, not nice business but it's motivated by game theory and rule following not racism

Oh absolutely but it explains what is going on as op described and takes out the racism angle

gothic_doll

A lot of replies here have automatically assumed that there must be a problem with you to not be promoted. Yet you already have 4+ years management experience, and several years working in different english-speaking countries.

If you don't have Irish Citizenship, but they still hired you- that's no excuse to not promote you. You obviously intend to stay. (and jobs are temporary these days anyway, with the economic climate. The idea you might not be there 2 years from now is a poor excuse to withhold promotion, as the same applies for Irish and EU nationals. No job security, emigrating everywhere...)

You mentioned they exclude you from meetings, but include new hires, and promoted a new hire 6 months in, when you are two years in and still not even at your previous level of management.

The responses here would give you an idea of how your problem would be addressed in the real world, but for what it's worth, from what you've said I don't think the problem is with you. You have plenty of varied experience for the role, and probably better experience than colleagues who've never worked abroad.

You could move on to a larger company as it sounds like a bit of a clique where you are.

Stheno

gothic_doll wrote: »

A lot of replies here have automatically assumed that there must be a problem with you to not be promoted. Yet you already have 4+ years management experience, and several years working in different english-speaking countries.

If you don't have Irish Citizenship, but they still hired you- that's no excuse to not promote you. You obviously intend to stay. (and jobs are temporary these days anyway, with the economic climate. The idea you might not be there 2 years from now is a poor excuse to withhold promotion, as the same applies for Irish and EU nationals. No job security, emigrating everywhere...)

You mentioned they exclude you from meetings, but include new hires, and promoted a new hire 6 months in, when you are two years in and still not even at your previous level of management.

The responses here would give you an idea of how your problem would be addressed in the real world, but for what it's worth, from what you've said I don't think the problem is with you. You have plenty of varied experience for the role, and probably better experience than colleagues who've never worked abroad.

You could move on to a larger company as it sounds like a bit of a clique where you are.

They hired op on a visa justifying one role promotion might make that invalid if there are EU staff who can fill the senior role

Op are you based far outside Dublin?

BreadnBuddha

Stheno wrote: »

Actually that's a really good (and blatantly obvious) point you've just raised.

I raised it a good week ago, but it's been convenient for some of the contibutors here, including the OP, to totally ignore. Tigger's on the ball. This isn't racism, it's practicality.

The OP has a chip on his shoulder about all of this and seems happy to entertain the notion that he's a victim. That kind of mentality is not suited to management and leadership, so maybe he's really not the right kind of guy for the role, no matter what he thinks.

India, Canada, USA, UK for 6 months....Now Ireland. Non-resident. Here a couple of years on a visa, requiring a work permit. No doubt, little to tie him to a career with this company or to making Ireland a home....yet!

Meanwhile, the reason people think he's being excluded from management meetings and passed over for 'promotion' (which it's not - WORK PERMIT and VISA!!!), is because he's being 'discriminated' against?

Somebody has to discriminate. The distinction or difference between the OP and another employee is that the other employee may be the one who represents the best longer term investment for the employer. Until the OP puts in his time here, secures permanent residency and thereby shows he's going to be around long enough for an employer to invest in his career development, he should sit back and be thankful to simply have the opportunity he has today.

Stick around for a while. 2 years is NOTHING. Put in your five years. Get your residency application in and then you'll be showing serious intent to actually stick around long enough for an employer to benefit from that training and other investments in promoting you.

Discrimination? Yet another hijacked word. If you were flakey Padraig from Bandon, ginger haired and freckled, with a lilting soliloquy about your hopes and dreams, you'd be taken no less seriously if you'd bounced from one job and country to another effectively at the drop of a hat, while expecting some kind of promotion or opportunity over and above the guy who is quite frankly more likely to stick around.

You can change that, but that's going to take time and effort on your part, not bitching and moaning or trying to make out you're the victim of UNFAIR discrimination of some sort.

I wish you well.

Mrs OBumble

Tigger wrote: »

What do you need to believe that Irish businesses aren't being racist

Well to start with, an absence of my African friends (who've all got citizenship, BTW) saying things like "We even don't bother applying to XYZ - we know they hire Eastern Europeans but not Africans".

And then a change to operational policies applied by government agencies which say "If the person is Irish, then do A, otherwise do B" - even though the law which the policy is based on doesn't differentiate based on citizenship. I became aware of a specific policy when I worked for an agency about five years ago - don't know for sure if it's still applied, but I'd guess it is. I've occasionally seen other posts here which point out others, too.

And actually, an absence of Irish employers who do things like automatically reject applications with certain addresses. (Yes, I've really met people who do this) - because of the higher-than-usual number of Travellers living in the area.

Oh - and absence of employers like poster Malcolm600f (see a few psots above).

strandroad

I think people are very dismissive of OP's concerns. He is talking not only about himself but about a general pattern in the company. I know plenty of managers who are from outside of EU and non-citizens and it's no big deal at all while there is nothing particularly unique to their work. If someone's status is blocking their progress, they are simply informed; I know someone who brought forward his wedding because of that.

OP I would bring it up with HR without any particular examples, just ask politely for a copy of company's promotion policy with any permit or visa aspects included, ideally together with some other folks. See what happens then.

davidfitz22

What part of Ireland are you living in? Some parts of the country are extremely parochial and even discriminate against Irish if the are from another county.

mjavi

Hi OP, I am a non-EEU Critical Skills Permit holder as well. Just some advice.

Just make sure you have your bases covered (communication, soft skills, understanding of Irish / EU cultural quirks) before you go to the discrimination part. Although it kinda looks like discrimination seeing that most of you there are left out at meetings and promotion. Having a Stamp 4 would really help you as well since once you bring this up, some bridges will be broken.

Talk to your Manager & HR and ask them 'What it takes to get you to get promoted'. This is a bit tricky, since you have to balance your words and it should not slide to 'Why was new-underserving-but-local-guy got promoted over me'. They should have a definite answer and devise a plan to get there.

In my experience I find the Irish / EU workplace to be more relaxed than cut-throat Asian workplace e.g. I don't need to micro-manage everything etc. It might be a different experience with you.

Tigger

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Well to start with, an absence of my African friends (who've all got citizenship, BTW) saying things like "We even don't bother applying to XYZ - we know they hire Eastern Europeans but not Africans".

an absence of then saying it? i'll assume you mean a fact of them saying it, how many are you talking about? 5 , 10 its not proof its opinion of a group of friends. anyway he did get hired, its been pointed out that his resume shows he moves a lot and at the moment he's not permanent they might not want a person who could move to a competitor to be in meetings so he's not in meetings.

And then a change to operational policies applied by government agencies which say "If the person is Irish, then do A, otherwise do B" - even though the law which the policy is based on doesn't differentiate based on citizenship.

please show a link to discriminatory government policy that differentiates against different resident citizens based on their place of birth. i simply don't believe this is true but i'll be very interested to read up any links you can post

I became aware of a specific policy when I worked for an agency about five years ago - don't know for sure if it's still applied, but I'd guess it is. I've occasionally seen other posts here which point out others, too.

what policy ? link?

And actually, an absence of Irish employers who do things like automatically reject applications with certain addresses. (Yes, I've really met people who do this) - because of the higher-than-usual number of Travellers living in the area.

this man is not a Traveller and any bigot worth his salt would know the Traveller surnames

Oh - and absence of employers like poster Malcolm600f (see a few psots above).

i think you use absence differently to me. he's not representative of employers he's not even a single employer

the_syco

endacl wrote: »

'Playing the race card' is a loaded statement. Does that mean in a case of discrimination the victim should just shut up and get on with things?

They may get promoted, but get managed out. A reference will involve long silences; they don't to say anything bad, for it to be a bad reference.

Better off leaving with a good reference and get into a larger company, and leaving with a bad reference, and not getting a new job.

sac2020 wrote: »

TBH i am surprised on why people here are surprised - that Indians can talk in english and that too very fluently. ( I am talking about my office guys here seamus).

Although Indians can speak fluent english, their grammer can suck badly. It comes down to who schooled you. I found that those schooled by english people have great grammer, but a lot (but not all) Indians who were schooled by an Indian have useless grammer.

From talking to them, it depends on where in India you were schooled.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I've heard stories about some "Pakistani" people being here in the 1930s. (I have no idea if they really were from Pakistan, or if it was just a generic word for foreign - suspect the latter.)

There were people seeking asylum since before then, but at a rate of 10 or 15 a year.

sac2020 wrote: »

'Name and shame ' is another option which can be done but have to think of legal implications and make sure you have all th proofs .

Most places won't list it unless you have proved it in court.

Tigger wrote: »

this man is not a Traveller and any bigot worth his salt would know the Traveller surnames

Traveller surnames? Oh lol. I know plenty of Wards, and they're in no way travellers, not for generations. Surnames mean nothing.

=-=

If the OP is here on a work visa, it seems the company is promoting people that will be here in a few years, without the hassle of paperwork. Any indians that I know who are in senior roles don't need work visas.

As said, ask management via unofficial channels what you need to get promoted; better chance of finding the lay of the land than asking officially, as the official stance may be horsesh|te.

Tigger

the_syco wrote: »

Traveller surnames? Oh lol. I know plenty of Wards, and they're in no way travellers, not for generations. Surnames mean nothing.

yeah but if they live in a specif area known for Travellers and have Traveller surname then they might be assumed to be Travellers i think