#GE16 - North Kildare

Jack Killian

Orion wrote: »

Same place it's coming from now - general taxation. Even if all bills were paid - and only about 50% have been - it would only cover the administration costs of IW and the costs of the meters. It's not a self-funding body and is still on the Govt. balance sheet.

The €490,000,000 misappropriated from LPT and given to IW would have gone a nice way towards some of the improvements, if they'd be spent on the task rather than the quango. And apparently that figure isn't the only amount of tax pissed away.

Orion

Jack Killian wrote: »

pissed away.

I'll excuse the pun

Jack Killian

Orion wrote: »

I'll excuse the pun

Good stuff - it's not like we're flush with money.

For Forks Sake

Orion wrote: »

Same place it's coming from now - general taxation. Even if all bills were paid - and only about 50% have been - it would only cover the administration costs of IW and the costs of the meters. It's not a self-funding body and is still on the Govt. balance sheet.

If the last decades have shown us anything, that system via the CCs barely covered basic maintenance, let alone investment in infrastructure such is the state of the water network nationwide. How would the SDs proposed reversal to this system incorporate funding for capital investment?

Orion

I've already answered that:

"The money being charged on domestic water charges is not being used to run, or to upgrade, the water system. Even if everyone paid their water bill, the money collected would do nothing other can cover the costs of the water meters and the costs of billing.

Here’s what the Social Democrats are proposing. Water charges should be abolished, as should the conservation grant. The meter rollout should be stopped. A full and open financial review of Irish Water should be conducted to identify what cost savings can be achieved each year and how they can be reinvested in the water system. Irish Water should be abolished and reconstituted as a public body, rather than as a commercial semi-state, to ensure it can never be privatised. Public ownership should be protected via a referendum to change the Constitution."

n97 mini

I get a bit fed up of the "to ensure it can never be privatised" craic, as if private companies were somehow evil. The gross waste of resources that is currently IW is completely state owned. If it were privatised it would not have 4 times the amount of staff that is required, as it currently does.

I'm all for the state keeping ownership of the network, but it doesn't require ex county council exmployees on the pigs back to run it.

Jack Killian

n97 mini wrote: »

I get a bit fed up of the "to ensure it can never be privatised" craic, as if private companies were somehow evil. The gross waste of resources that is currently IW is completely state owned. If it were privatised it would not have 4 times the amount of staff that is required, as it currently does.

I'm all for the state keeping ownership of the network, but it doesn't require ex county council exmployees on the pigs back to run it.

That's a fair point - there are lots of leeches in both public and private sector. The problem is that general service providers have been trying to up prices gradually and offering even less in return.

Monopolies are illegal for a reason, and giving an expensive shambles like IW a monopoly is a disaster waiting to happen. Look at the NCT -
a similar "monopoly via state-endorsement" and how the waiting lists for that show that the funds raised don't go to where they're needed.

Jack Killian

For Forks Sake wrote: »

If the last decades have shown us anything, that system via the CCs barely covered basic maintenance, let alone investment in infrastructure such is the state of the water network nationwide. How would the SDs proposed reversal to this system incorporate funding for capital investment?

True. And the last 2 years with billions wasted is the "solution" ? If the misappropriated LPT and the meter costs and whatever else they wasted on consultants and gyms and paying CEOs with track records of waste had gone to funding upgrades, we'd be in a far better place.

davycc

Jack Killian wrote: »

No. As stated to you in the other thread in which you posted the exact same statement.

cheers didnt see your reply .:)

here is my reply to yourself and anybody concerned here copied from tthe irish water mega vii;)

i was spreading no lies only asking an innocent enough question after something i heard sat in dublin at the protest.. i was dying with severe man flu and off my face overdosing on calpol6+ all the last few days..

i double checked with my contact sunday night and its actually Murphys SD great friend on Kildare CC Anto Larkin who bizarrely abstained on a SF vote to scrap water charges at KCC in November 2014 and July 2015.

He also wanted a 0% reduction in Local Property Tax for Kildare !

He is her colleague he ran as an independent in 2014. When Murphy runs clinics she advertises in the local papers and he is on her list for clinics. He is her great friend..

my contact is also worried that the SDs are going to try be the next labour party and not in a good way

Anatom

The old system patently wasn't working. At all. It hadn't for years. (Have you all forgotten the child that died about twenty years ago in Naas from contaminated water?)

We don't actually know exactly how much water we waste through leaks before it gets to where its supposed to. Local councils simply did nothing except plug the obvious leaks and nothing else.

Now, at least, we have IW. Yes, it was badly handled at the start, and yes it certainly could have been cheaper than it has been so far. And yes, the management have been less obvious than the invisible man. BUT. I blame the political establishment - and Phil Hogan specifically - for most of that.

However, it IS set up now so there's no point in carping on about it further. The SDs (and FF too) are just going through the pre-election spoofing. We're not going to waste all of the set-up costs we funded by abolishing it so soon. That's just a stupid, easy-to-peddle idea that appeals to the whinging classes, but conveniently ignores the reality of what IW has actually achieved in its two year existence.

The national water infrastructure finally has a structured plan in place now. As an example, the vast majority of households on boil water notices (Roscommon mainly) have now got clean water because of the new pumping stations and waste management facilities that have been put in place. The Vartry works, which supplies most of the drinking water to Dublin is 150 years old. One hundred and fifty. Local councils have had a long time to upgrade it haven't they? Its being done now. IW has made more progress in under two years than any multiple councils managed over decades.

But because none of these projects are seen in Tallaght or Raheny or other areas of Dublin where the protesters stage their hoolies, its not mentioned. The metering programme is largely finished at this stage so not only do we have a functioning (alright, there are still issues with it, not least of which is that people aren't paying their bills) system of pay-per-usage, but we have a overall umbrella body who are dealing with the leaks and modernising the system.

I'm no fan of extra bills, believe me. But we couldn't go on as we were for too much longer...

Orion

davycc wrote: »

cheers didnt see your reply .:)

here is my reply to yourself and anybody concerned here copied from tthe irish water mega vii;)

i was spreading no lies only asking an innocent enough question after something i heard sat in dublin at the protest.. i was dying with severe man flu and off my face overdosing on calpol6+ all the last few days..

i double checked with my contact sunday night and its actually Murphys SD great friend on Kildare CC Anto Larkin who bizarrely abstained on a SF vote to scrap water charges at KCC in November 2014 and July 2015.

He also wanted a 0% reduction in Local Property Tax for Kildare !

He is her colleague he ran as an independent in 2014. When Murphy runs clinics she advertises in the local papers and he is on her list for clinics. He is her great friend..

my contact is also worried that the SDs are going to try be the next labour party and not in a good way

That must have been in response to me - I didn't see it on the other thread.

But in answer to this: one to of my closest friends is a very devout catholic - I'm atheist. Another friend is a committed SF voter - I'm most certainly not. I'm quite friendly with Teresa Murray (who Murphy also backed in 2014) but don't necessarily agree with every vote she makes on the council. I'm friendly with Reada Cronin but she knows she doesn't have my vote.

People can be friends and not agree with every stance their friend takes. I'd judge Murphy on her own and her party's policies not those of someone she backed 2 years ago.

davycc

Orion wrote: »

That must have been in response to me - I didn't see it on the other thread.

But in answer to this: one to of my closest friends is a very devout catholic - I'm atheist. Another friend is a committed SF voter - I'm most certainly not. I'm quite friendly with Teresa Murray (who Murphy also backed in 2014) but don't necessarily agree with every vote she makes on the council. I'm friendly with Reada Cronin but she knows she doesn't have my vote.

People can be friends and not agree with every stance their friend takes. I'd judge Murphy on her own and her party's policies not those of someone she backed 2 years ago.

like i said apologies to murphy i can only hope she dosn't end up becoming the next labour 2.0 version which sells out its voters..

im an atheist SF voter mainly though i voted liebour in the past

L1011

davycc wrote: »

like i said apologies to murphy i can only hope she dosn't end up becoming the next labour 2.0 version which sells out its voters..

im an atheist SF voter mainly though i voted liebour in the past

You are aware of how SF act in office in NI versus their promises, right?

Never before - or again, I suspect - do we have a chance to inspect how a party performs in government elsewhere. And it doesn't make for good reading for those convinced that they're white knights who'll do everything they promise.

If your response is similar to last time, making (baseless - go through my posting history if you want) accusations of being right wing, etc, I'll just take it as a very clear no.

davycc

L1011 wrote: »

You are aware of how SF act in office in NI versus their promises, right?

Never before - or again, I suspect - do we have a chance to inspect how a party performs in government elsewhere. And it doesn't make for good reading for those convinced that they're white knights who'll do everything they promise.

If your response is similar to last time, making (baseless - go through my posting history if you want) accusations of being right wing, etc, I'll just take it as a very clear no.

SF not really in power in NI its just a gloried county council and been economic black hole for decades before SF got in and its slowly improving .. however they managed to fight off water charges despite someone here claiming they implimented them
im not naive enough to believe they are white knights by any stretch apologies if i called you a right winger its just i dont personally know any left wingers who call SF economic illiterates like you did like a copy and paste right wing slogans from the Indo , you were only short of calling it a cult lol

L1011

The NI executive controls health, welfare, transport, policing etc. Bit more than a council.

They've postponed water charges, they're still metering with a planned billing date. People are posted zeroed out bills etc.

They promise the world and deliver none of it. It won't be different here. It hasn't been different in their county/city councils here either actually

I don't read the Indo and I write my own comments

davycc

thanks for your concern , but ill still be voting SF .
have you a link too this water meters and seperate billing story ?

are you sure your not mixing it up with household rates up there?

davycc

thanks for your concern , but ill still be voting SF .
have you a link too this water meters and seperate billing story ?

are you sure your not mixing it up with household rates up there?

Orion

davycc wrote: »

apologies if i called you a right winger its just i dont personally know any left wingers who call SF economic illiterates like you did like a copy and paste right wing slogans from the Indo , you were only short of calling it a cult lol

I'm not a right winger either and I would have called them economic illiterates in the past. However they turned that around somewhat in 2011 and this time they've actually managed to embarrass the other three major parties with the analysis of the "fiscal space". I do agree with L1011 that their numbers are only valid for year 1 though. Much as I don't like Pearse Doherty as a politician he (and Toibin) seem to be writing most of their economic policy and they're numbers are fairly correct. However, it's their economic policies not their mathematics that I have issues with and won't be voting for them.

davycc wrote: »

thanks for your concern , but ill still be voting SF .
have you a link too this water meters and seperate billing story ?

are you sure your not mixing it up with household rates up there?

He's not. They have continued with the meter rollout with SF in the Assembly and there is a fixed date - 2019 iirc. Just google it yourself - there are pleny of articles about it.

L1011

davycc wrote: »

thanks for your concern , but ill still be voting SF .
have you a link too this water meters and seperate billing story ?

are you sure your not mixing it up with household rates up there?

No, the household rates (which SF does not make any moves to remove in NI; but are against down here) are an entirely different issue.

Meters were rolled out while Conor Murphy (SF) was Minister: http://www.constructionireland.ie/construction-news/191942/sinn-f-in-slammed-for-allowing-32-000-water-meters-to-be-installed

The final, to date, delay to charging in NI was brought in in early 2013. No moves have been made, as yet, to delay this further and if that isn't done charges will begin in May this year (http://www.crossexaminer.co.uk/archives/10319)

Additionally, NIWater has already started sending domestic users letters asking them to name a payment method (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-29935547) showing that everything is in place for it already. They currently receive bills zeroed out and have done since 2007.

The Executive have the ability to completely remove the charging system, stop metering, stop billing etc and they've done none of it - just kick it down the road until after awkward elections.


If you honestly believe SF in coalition down here are going to be able to do even a tiny percentage of the things they claim, you need to look north. All this info is easily found, it doesn't have to be spoonfed to you. The reason for not bothering with links before is that it takes five seconds on Google or is common knowledge - you don't provide links to show that the world is round and the sky is blue. Over-linking/over-referencing is a common tactic when you're making stuff up and want people to believe it - see anything written by Gillian McKeith for starters.

HonalD

Double post

HonalD

It's interesting to hear all the economic plans each party has but meanwhile we're heading for a global recession.

Given our open economy all bets will be off and the next Government can row back on their promises.

Has any party mentioned the current international stock market volatility?

Orion

SocDems have - one of the reasons they don't want to reduce the "fiscal space" as it will be needed as a buffer in case of a recession as other means to dip into have already been used up - public sector/front line cuts, pension reserve fund gutted, etc.
(seriously whoever came up with that term "fiscal space" should be slapped with a DoF manual.)

SF have too but they don't think it impacts their plans.

Orion

SocDems have - one of the reasons they don't want to reduce the "fiscal space" as it will be needed as a buffer in case of a recession as other means to dip into have already been used up - public sector/front line cuts, pension reserve fund gutted, etc.
(seriously whoever came up with that term "fiscal space" should be slapped with a DoF manual.)

SF have too but they don't think it impacts their plans.

L1011

Alex White has also made reference to it as a risk in debates. I worry that most are assuming this'll be like 02/03 when a slowdown had little impact here but we had our unique overheating issues then

Joe Public

HonalD wrote: »

It's interesting to hear all the economic plans each party has but meanwhile we're heading for a global recession.

Given our open economy all bets will be off and the next Government can row back on their promises.

Has any party mentioned the current international stock market volatility?

Not a good idea when trying to get elected!

Joe Public

infacteh wrote: »

Current odds from PP. It's how I would see it, 3 incumbents returned, and James Lawless taking Anthony Lawlor's seat.

What's the link for these bets please?

I'm on the PP site in the Irish Politics election area but can't find betting for individuals in their constituency.

L1011

Joe Public wrote: »

What's the link for these bets please?

I'm on the PP site in the Irish Politics election area but can't find betting for individuals in their constituency.

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-constituencies and pick where you want. It may collapse to the top ten but all 40 are there.

Orion

Still 5 candidates odds on. Cronin at 3/1 might be a nice bet.

Orion

Not Kildare related but this one looks interesting. Even Paddy Power aren't sure that Joan Burton will keep her seat:

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-constituencies?ev_oc_grp_ids=2241638

She's 5th favourite in a 4 seater.

Orion

Not Kildare related but this one looks interesting. Even Paddy Power aren't sure that Joan Burton will keep her seat:

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-constituencies?ev_oc_grp_ids=2241638

She's 5th favourite in a 4 seater.