Change of use to short-term/holiday let apartments

Sharktopus

Hi,

I'm a long term resident of Dublin City Centre. I've recently noticed a lot of apartments in my area are being changed over to short term let holiday homes.

We've lost a few good neighbours to this over the past few years. I have just heard of a 'businessman' who is specifically looking to buy up property specifically for short term let apartments.

Can anyone tell me what the legality of this is? Do short term let and holiday apartments require different planning permission (you would think they are closer to hotels than normal residencies).

I've three main issues with this:
1) At a time of a housing crisis this sort of use is taking housing that could be used for families off the market.

2) If we are going to try to encourage urban living, transient spaces like this becoming the norm will make it harder to create communities.

3) Short term and holiday apartments can have anti-social elements (there is one apartment across the street from mine which seems to attract a party crowd every weekend for some reason)

If any posters can point me to the legalities of this that would be great

Thanks

newacc2015

Sharktopus wrote: »

Hi,

I'm a long term resident of Dublin City Centre. I've recently noticed a lot of apartments in my area are being changed over to short term let holiday homes.

We've lost a few good neighbours to this over the past few years. I have just heard of a 'businessman' who is specifically looking to buy up property specifically for short term let apartments.

Can anyone tell me what the legality of this is? Do short term let and holiday apartments require different planning permission (you would think they are closer to hotels than normal residencies).

I've three main issues with this:
1) At a time of a housing crisis this sort of use is taking housing that could be used for families off the market.

2) If we are going to try to encourage urban living, transient spaces like this becoming the norm will make it harder to create communities.

3) Short term and holiday apartments can have anti-social elements (there is one apartment across the street from mine which seems to attract a party crowd every weekend for some reason)

If any posters can point me to the legalities of this that would be great

Thanks

Can I ask how many families do you see living in 1/2 bedroom apartments in the City? I would imagine a small fraction of apartments are actually used by families. I have visited countless apartment blocks in Dublin (one that had over 80 apartments without a single owner occupier) and there was never any signs of families living in them.

Look at it this way. There has been literally 1/2 Hotels built in Dublin in the last 8/9 years. All the Hotels in the City, are pretty much at constant capacity without any events or concerts on. These apartments are providing much needed accommodation.

Dublin is one of the most visited Cities in Europe. Tourism is one of Dublin's most important industries. Tens of thousands are employed by this multi-billion euro industry. It is responsible for huge amounts of tax revenue.

We could ban apartments for short term letting like some US cities are considering. But Dublin would lose out on potentials hundreds of millions in tourist revenue, the state would millions in tax revenue and countless jobs would be lost. Also we have the European HQ of the company which basically has revolutionised short term stay accommodation, Airbnb.

athtrasna

The recent clarification that AirBnB properties are liable for tax in the same way as full time rental properties may change this. Why pay Airbnb fees plus tax.

The other thing is that short term letting is not permitted in many developments' head leases. Management companies need to get involved to stop this happening.

newacc2015

athtrasna wrote: »

The recent clarification that AirBnB properties are liable for tax in the same way as full time rental properties may change this. Why pay Airbnb fees plus tax.

The other thing is that short term letting is not permitted in many developments' head leases. Management companies need to get involved to stop this happening.

Most people assumed that these properties were fully liable for tax. Some people mixed it up with rent-a-room scheme, which most Airbnb lettings were clearly not. Most lettings are renting the entire house/apartment, which would have always been liable for full taxation.

You can make far more money off Airbnb. You can get significantly more for an apartment on Airbnb in a good location than a traditional 12 month contract with a tenant. Plus there is no risk of a non-paying tenant, as you are a lodger with no rights and not a tenant. You can also up the letting as you wish. You arent tied into the new rent increase legalisation. Airbnb is slightly more work, but far more profitable than traditional lettings. There is also no PRTB fees.

I cant imagine short term letting are banned in most developments. It is quite a new thing in Ireland. They werent really common until recently. With management companies having huge issues with repossessed properties not paying their management fees. I doubt dealing with short term lettings are high on their priority list.

athtrasna

newacc2015 wrote: »

I cant imagine short term letting are banned in most developments. It is quite a new thing in Ireland. They werent really common until recently. With management companies having huge issues with repossessed properties not paying their management fees. I doubt dealing with short term lettings are high on their priority list.

Where apartments have common areas, shared entrances then it becomes a high priority issue as it has implications for insurance and wear and tear.

4ensic15

Sharktopus wrote: »

Hi,



Can anyone tell me what the legality of this is? Do short term let and holiday apartments require different planning permission (you would think they are closer to hotels than normal residencies).



If any posters can point me to the legalities of this that would be great

Thanks

Look at the case of McMahon v Dublin Corporation, High Court, Unreported, Barron J, 19-6-1996 where it was held that short term lettings were not covered by the planning permission for a development.
In all likelihood this short term letting is not covered by planing permission and could be successfully injuncted.

newacc2015

4ensic15 wrote: »

Look at the case of McMahon v Dublin Corporation, High Court, Unreported, Barron J, 19-6-1996 where it was held that short term lettings were not covered by the planning permission for a development.
In all likelihood this short term letting is not covered by planing permission and could be successfully injuncted.

I googled a few short term stay developments in the city and I can only find one with planning. The only reason why they have planning was to change it from a student accommodation development to an aparthotel scheme.

There appears to be no planning permission applications for one block of over a hundred residential apartments being converted to short term lettings. They submitted planning to alter the staircases positing though.

I wonder was this law superseded by new legalisation?It appears a major company can change residential apartments to short term lettings without needing planning.

Gumbo

newacc2015 wrote: »

I googled a few short term stay developments in the city and I can only find one with planning. The only reason why they have planning was to change it from a student accommodation development to an aparthotel scheme.

There appears to be no planning permission applications for one block of over a hundred residential apartments being converted to short term lettings. They submitted planning to alter the staircases positing though.

I wonder was this law superseded by new legalisation?It appears a major company can change residential apartments to short term lettings without needing planning.

There's planning granted for a buck of short stay furnished apartments in the 5 lamps. Construction started last year. Due for completion soon.

5/6 North Strand Road iirc

newacc2015

kceire wrote: »

There's planning granted for a buck of short stay furnished apartments in the 5 lamps. Construction started last year. Due for completion soon.

5/6 North Strand Road iirc

Is planning needed to convert an existing block of apartments to short term apartments? I cant find any planning applications on the DCC website for of existing blocks of apartments turned into short stay apartments.

waxon-waxoff

There's been short term leases of apartments in Temple Bar for many years. The only issue is extra potential for noise and parties, but that's city living.

I can understand the OP is happy in their home and doesnt want to see their neighborhood changing but many areas of the city centre have evolved in different ways in the last decade or two. Theres apartment blocks in Dublin 1,7,8 where theres no Irish residents at all. If you owned a property within a mile of the Grand canal dock you can thank Google, Facebook etc for adding 25-30% to its value.

Mrs OBumble

athtrasna wrote: »

The other thing is that short term letting is not permitted in many developments' head leases. Management companies need to get involved to stop this happening.

How is short-term defined in these head leases?

I have rural relatives who believe that anything less than 3 years is short term. But must city leases are for a good deal less than this.



Also, someone commented that very few families stay in 1-2 brm apartments. This is true. But they are ideal for singles, couples and single child-free adults. If the available of apartments for these people is reduced, then they are likely to move into properties that could be family homes, thus displacing families.

Cities need a range of accommodation sizes and styles: traditional homes, apartments, tourist accommodation are all part of the mix. There's very little point in having tourist accommodation, if there's nowhere for the people who work in the tourist ventures to live, or indeed no locals to provide core-business for venues during the tourist off-season.

Gumbo

newacc2015 wrote: »

Is planning needed to convert an existing block of apartments to short term apartments? I cant find any planning applications on the DCC website for of existing blocks of apartments turned into short stay apartments.

Yes, planning is required to do what you describe.

You could also look at conversions of office blocks to short stay temp housing on Sean Mac Dermott Street. Theres a couple own there. They are essentially self contained apartments, but without the private open space requirements or parking requirements. These are designed as short stay/emergency housing.

62 Sean Mac Dermott Street is one, I cant think of the number for the other one.

Fkall

Planning permission is not required for short term Lettings.

4ensic15

Fkall wrote: »

Planning permission is not required for short term Lettings.

It is required to change a residential property to holiday use.

Gumbo

Fkall wrote: »

Planning permission is not required for short term Lettings.

Yes it is. It is a different planning class and is treated differently that residential dwellings due to the volume of change overs and the commercial aspect to it. You'll also find it requires a fire safety certificate for the change too.

I'm dealing with these on a daily basis

Fkall

kceire wrote: »

Yes it is. It is a different planning class and is treated differently that residential dwellings due to the volume of change overs and the commercial aspect to it. You'll also find it requires a fire safety certificate for the change too.

I'm dealing with these on a daily basis

You might be dealing with hotels or some other accommodation type but you are not dealing with self contained apartments being let on a short term basis.

I repeat from a planning law perspective there is no difference between renting an apartment for a day or a year.

Perhaps you might point to the relevant piece of legalisation that backs up your position.

Victor

Fkall wrote: »

You might be dealing with hotels or some other accommodation type but you are not dealing with self contained apartments being let on a short term basis.

I repeat from a planning law perspective there is no difference between renting an apartment for a day or a year.

Perhaps you might point to the relevant piece of legalisation that backs up your position.

The case law has been quoted above.

Gumbo

Fkall wrote: »

You might be dealing with hotels or some other accommodation type but you are not dealing with self contained apartments being let on a short term basis.

Please don't state what I am or am not dealing with on a daily basis. Short stay self contained apartments which are used as a holiday type situation do require planning permission, new fire safety certificate and also a new disability access certificate.

Fkall wrote: »

I repeat from a planning law perspective there is no difference between renting an apartment for a day or a year.

From a planning point of view there is. You may be getting mixed up with some individual who may decide to rent their individual apartment out in a short stay scenario Airbnb or similar which would be hard to enforce from a planning enforce,net point of view but may go against the conditions of the granted planning application for that development.

In fact, I was refused a Section 5 recently to convert an existing dwelling into a short stay self contained holiday unit in Dublin City.

Sharktopus

Hi - thanks everyone for their contributions on this. I'll write a longer reply later, but there is plenty here for me to add to my research. I had no idea where to look previously.

ckblackrock

kceire wrote: »

Yes it is. It is a different planning class and is treated differently that residential dwellings due to the volume of change overs and the commercial aspect to it. You'll also find it requires a fire safety certificate for the change too.

I'm dealing with these on a daily basis

This is quite worrying. I am wondering what the situations is regarding a small house (not an apartment block). I already own a holiday home in a seaside town which I renovated and let short term to holidaymakers when not being used by family, but I never applied for change of use. I was thinking of doing the same with a Dublin property that will be used by family occasionally. Do I need to apply for planning permission for both of these properties now, if I wish to let them out on a weekend or weekly basis to holidaymakers via AirB&B? I will of course be declaring the income, so tax is not an issue, but for personal reasons I don't want to let either property long term. Both properties will (hopefully) be rented out more often than occupied by family, so I can't in honesty claim that the principal use is as a family holiday home.

Gumbo

ckblackrock wrote: »

This is quite worrying. I am wondering what the situations is regarding a small house (not an apartment block). I already own a holiday home in a seaside town which I renovated and let short term to holidaymakers when not being used by family, but I never applied for change of use. I was thinking of doing the same with a Dublin property that will be used by family occasionally. Do I need to apply for planning permission for both of these properties now, if I wish to let them out on a weekend or weekly basis to holidaymakers via AirB&B? I will of course be declaring the income, so tax is not an issue, but for personal reasons I don't want to let either property long term. Both properties will (hopefully) be rented out more often than occupied by family, so I can't in honesty claim that the principal use is as a family holiday home.

Here is one such example :

http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=0235/15&backURL=<a href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2747064>Search Criteria</a> > <a href='wphappsearchres.displayResultsURL?ResultID=3300405%26StartIndex=1%26SortOrder=APNID%26DispResultsAs=WPHAPPSEARCHRES%26BackURL=<a href=wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=2747064>Search Criteria</a>'>Search Results</a>

Type 0235/15 into Dublin City Councils Planning Search facility.

(i'm not the applicant btw, so no personal attachment to this property)

ckblackrock

There must be thousands and thousands of second home owners (and first home owners who had to move but cant afford to sell) doing AirB&B without pp, I know loads of people who do it. It would take a whole planning dept to police. How heavily enforced is it and do some planning areas take a more strict view than others?

Do you also need planning to change a house (as opposed to a apt block or office building) to student accommodation?

Gumbo

ckblackrock wrote: »

There must be thousands and thousands of second home owners (and first home owners who had to move but cant afford to sell) doing AirB&B without pp, I know loads of people who do it. It would take a whole planning dept to police. How heavily enforced is it and do some planning areas take a more strict view than others?

Do you also need planning to change a house (as opposed to a apt block or office building) to student accommodation?

have a look at the link above. That was for a single house to convert.
From a Planning Enforcement point of view, it would be extremely hard to police, and my contact says it would be waste of resourses, but remember, we are not talking about single dwellings here, we are talking about blocks of apartments.

Victor

ckblackrock wrote: »

Do you also need planning to change a house to student accommodation?

Students are normal people too.

How is a house let to 4 students different to one let to 4 professionals?

Provided you do have 30 students in a 3-bed and invoke some public health clause, I don't see the problem.

Muahahaha

ckblackrock wrote: »

There must be thousands and thousands of second home owners (and first home owners who had to move but cant afford to sell) doing AirB&B without pp, I know loads of people who do it. It would take a whole planning dept to police. How heavily enforced is it and do some planning areas take a more strict view than others?

Do you also need planning to change a house (as opposed to a apt block or office building) to student accommodation?

I did the Airbnb thing right from the get go back in 2010 when they launched in Dublin. Did it for a few years till I got a bit tired of it and didn't need the money as much. In any case since then a neighbour in my block started it up but another neighbour complained and the MC made them stop. Quite simply the head lease in my block (and in most blocks in Dublin I'd imagine) state that you cannot run a private business from an apartment in the block. I suppose I knew this but took the risk as at the time I was stuck for cash and also I loved meeting new people (still do but not in my home anymore:))

Anyway I spoke with the neighbour who had to give it up and he said that in the end he agreed with the MC simply because by breaking his head lease no guests would be insured for walking in and out of the common areas. If someone tripped and fell it could well be the Airbnb host they end up suing. Even an ankle strain could end up costing an Airbnb host €20,000 in this country. And another point is probably 60% of my guests used to be Americans who can be very litigous people when things go wrong.

Also Airbnb hosts would be crazy not to have public liability insurance in their apartment. I once had a male guest from Texas who got drunk in my home and then fell off a chair and hit his head on the ground. He was so drunk that he jokingly said he was going to sue me, I went to bed that night sh1tting myself as I had tried to get public liability but couldn't find any insurance company at the time who would touch it. He was fine about it the next day when hungover but it was a worry. Airbnb is a fantastic site and I still use it as a guest when I go abroad. But being a host on it can be a legal minefield that could end up costing you a lot more than several hundred nights of rentals. Airbnb T&C's state that it is up to you the host to ensure adequate insurance and fire cover. In the event of an accident they will not want to know. Beware is the advice I give to friends doing it nowadays.

ckblackrock

Muahahaha wrote: »

I did the Airbnb thing right from the get go back in 2010 when they launched in Dublin. Did it for a few years till I got a bit tired of it and didn't need the money as much. In any case since then a neighbour in my block started it up but another neighbour complained and the MC made them stop. Quite simply the head lease in my block (and in most blocks in Dublin I'd imagine) state that you cannot run a private business from an apartment in the block. I suppose I knew this but took the risk as at the time I was stuck for cash and also I loved meeting new people (still do but not in my home anymore:))

Anyway I spoke with the neighbour who had to give it up and he said that in the end he agreed with the MC simply because by breaking his head lease no guests would be insured for walking in and out of the common areas. If someone tripped and fell it could well be the Airbnb host they end up suing. Even an ankle strain could end up costing an Airbnb host €20,000 in this country. And another point is probably 60% of my guests used to be Americans who can be very litigous people when things go wrong.

Also Airbnb hosts would be crazy not to have public liability insurance in their apartment. I once had a male guest from Texas who got drunk in my home and then fell off a chair and hit his head on the ground. He was so drunk that he jokingly said he was going to sue me, I went to bed that night sh1tting myself as I had tried to get public liability but couldn't find any insurance company at the time who would touch it. He was fine about it the next day when hungover but it was a worry. Airbnb is a fantastic site and I still use it as a guest when I go abroad. But being a host on it can be a legal minefield that could end up costing you a lot more than several hundred nights of rentals. Airbnb T&C's state that it is up to you the host to ensure adequate insurance and fire cover. In the event of an accident they will not want to know. Beware is the advice I give to friends doing it nowadays.

Actually just renewed my household insurance and read over the policy documents before renewing. It covers me for up to 2 x paying guests, so this would cover most Airbnb hosts who are just letting a room in their home. I assume this is a standard policy clause, as I never asked for it.

Sharktopus

Bumping this again - seems like it's an extremely widespread phenomenon http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-has-more-holiday-properties-than-long-term-lets-1.2583681

Would be interesting if the council crack down on it similar to how officials in Paris acted

MarkAnthony

While I disagree that families are not using 2 bed apartments (and in some cases 1 bed apartments due to cost) it's simple supply and demand. Dublin has a problem with short term accommodation which has a knock on effect of the wider economy. It's not for private landlords to deal with these issues.

I'd welcome Ireland cracking down on the enforcement of anything to be honest, but I don't see it happening. If the proper insurance is in place and the OMC of the complex are willing to allow short term lets and the house rules are adhered to I see no issue with it myself. Too much hassle for me I have to admit, I prefer a longer term arrangement. That said with the law being what it is regarding tenancies I can see why it's a very attractive proposition for many.

newacc2015

Sharktopus wrote: »

Bumping this again - seems like it's an extremely widespread phenomenon http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-has-more-holiday-properties-than-long-term-lets-1.2583681

Would be interesting if the council crack down on it similar to how officials in Paris acted

That articles seem quite poorly researched. It appears he has taken every listing on Airbnb. So he is basically assuming that a family letting out their spare room on Airbnb is taking a property away from long term rental, which it isnt. He doesnt seem to understand the concept of Airbnb either ie not all listings on it are for entire properties. Or that a fair amount of properties listed on Airbnb are incredible and wouldnt be used for normal renting eg Penthouses in the IFSC

I seriously doubt the rules will change. We have the European HQ for Airbnb, which is worth tens of millions to the economy. We are going to frustrate a growing employer in the city to few up a few apartments. You have to ask why Airbnb is popular in Dublin? IMO it is down to the fact, our tourism industry is booming and yet we have hardly built a hotel in Dublin in years (other than the Holiday Inn on O Connell). Do we sacrifice the growth of tourism industry which employs tens of thousands in the city to make a minimal difference in supply?

This article is passing the blame on private property owners for the shortages of lettings in the city again. It is easy to blame 'greedy landlords' instead of blaming the incompetent council for housing shortages.

Sharktopus

newacc2015 wrote: »

That articles seem quite poorly researched. It appears he has taken every listing on Airbnb. So he is basically assuming that a family letting out their spare room on Airbnb is taking a property away from long term rental, which it isnt. He doesnt seem to understand the concept of Airbnb either ie not all listings on it are for entire properties. Or that a fair amount of properties listed on Airbnb are incredible and wouldnt be used for normal renting eg Penthouses in the IFSC

I seriously doubt the rules will change. We have the European HQ for Airbnb, which is worth tens of millions to the economy. We are going to frustrate a growing employer in the city to few up a few apartments. You have to ask why Airbnb is popular in Dublin? IMO it is down to the fact, our tourism industry is booming and yet we have hardly built a hotel in Dublin in years (other than the Holiday Inn on O Connell). Do we sacrifice the growth of tourism industry which employs tens of thousands in the city to make a minimal difference in supply?

This article is passing the blame on private property owners for the shortages of lettings in the city again. It is easy to blame 'greedy landlords' instead of blaming the incompetent council for housing shortages.

It seems to over-egg the amount alright - but according to InsideAirbnb.com there are 1,231 'high availability' full house/apartments on the market. (they define this as being available for 90 days or more) There are currently 1,189 residential rental accommodations available on Daft.ie. So I don't think you could say it would have a minimal affect on demand. In fact if these were to be brought back into the net it would more than double rental supply. It would certainly make a big difference as we wait for new units to come on stream.

In my situation I am seeing long term residential units (some of which housed good neighbours) being changed into hotels. We are seeing cleaners on a daily basis, and have to put up with the anti-social behaviour of tourist parties on a weekly basis.

If there is a problem with lack of supply for tourists then build hotels. This is displacing long term residential tenants and making life unbearable for existing tenants, not to mention the major social issues that it is contributing to.

I don't think it should be an either/or in terms of sacrificing tourist industry. If Paris can crack down on this then why can't we http://www.thelocal.fr/20160113/paris-cracks-down-on-illegal-airbnb-flats

newacc2015

Sharktopus wrote: »

It seems to over-egg the amount alright - but according to InsideAirbnb.com there are 1,231 'high availability' full house/apartments on the market. (they define this as being available for 90 days or more) There are currently 1,189 residential rental accommodations available on Daft.ie. So I don't think you could say it would have a minimal affect on demand. In fact if these were to be brought back into the net it would more than double rental supply. It would certainly make a big difference as we wait for new units to come on stream.

In my situation I am seeing long term residential units (some of which housed good neighbours) being changed into hotels. We are seeing cleaners on a daily basis, and have to put up with the anti-social behaviour of tourist parties on a weekly basis.

If there is a problem with lack of supply for tourists then build hotels. This is displacing long term residential tenants and making life unbearable for existing tenants, not to mention the major social issues that it is contributing to.

I don't think it should be an either/or in terms of sacrificing tourist industry. If Paris can crack down on this then why can't we http://www.thelocal.fr/20160113/paris-cracks-down-on-illegal-airbnb-flats

I dont think you quite understand what housing supply is. Putting over 1,200 units back into the rent system isnt doubling supply. There is over 500k housing units in Dublin City. Lets say 25% of them are rented. 125/1.2 is increasing housing numbers by 1.0%. I dont see how 1.0% increase would make a small difference, if any.

Do you know what Airbnb is about? It is about a new experience. Not everyone wants to stay in hotels. Airbnb is an alternative. Instead of staying in a generic Hilton or Malton,which are all the same. Airbnb allows you to stay in a large, stylish apartment, which are unique and different. Even Hilton Hotels in the US, just this week mentioned they will have to redefine what a hotel is for young people as their tastes have changed. Most Airbnb properties are incredible properties. They arent all generic 2 bed Liam O'Carroll apartments like you are suggesting.


I mentioned why we cant be like Paris above. Also if our hotels are at capacity on a typical mid week with no events on in the city. But taking airbnb away from tourists. Explain how it wouldnt negatively affect the tourist industry? If I cant find an airbnb or hotel in a city. I wont visit a city.