Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Change of use to short-term/holiday let apartments
Options
Comments
-
newacc2015 wrote: »I dont think you quite understand what housing supply is. Putting over 1,200 units back into the rent system isnt doubling supply. There is over 500k housing units in Dublin City. Lets say 25% of them are rented. 125/1.2 is increasing housing numbers by 1.0%. I dont see how 1.0% increase would make a small difference, if any. .
I understand perfectly well supply and demand. In order of something to be part of the supply it needs to be available.The point is that based on that snapshot there are more property units available on the short term holiday market right now. The evidence would suggest that a large amount of these properties are operating as long term commercial concerns (probably against planning regulations).
You need to remember that not everyone in rented accommodation is looking to move and not every rental property is currently on the market. Only a % are - let's assume that only 1 in 20 rental properties is currently for rent, that would mean a 20% increase in supply if these properties were brought back into the net (going by your figures) .newacc2015 wrote: »Do you know what Airbnb is about? .
Yes... and I think that long term commercial letting is an aberration of what they claim to be about. Here is how they described themselves in their own pre-budget submission "Many of our hosts make part of their home available, such as a spare room or suite of rooms. Others use their entire place, passing the keys to a guest and leaving them to enjoy their whole home, for example if they are themselves going on holiday or travelling on business" - no mention of long term commercial use.
Would you agree that running an apartment as a hotel room, available all year round with cleaning services etc is contrary to that description?
I suggested nothing of the sort. There are some spectacular places on Airbnb Dublin. But from what I can see the vast majority are perfectly reasonable properties suitable for standard residential living. These are being taken out of the rental stock.newacc2015 wrote: »Most Airbnb properties are incredible properties. They arent all generic 2 bed Liam O'Carroll apartments like you are suggesting.
This is where we get into the hierarchy of needs. If you are suggesting that tourist needs somehow trump the needs of citizens then we'll never see eye to eye on this. I believe that accommodation is a basic right and by going against planning permission and behaving this way there is a denial of supply going on. The Airbnb ethos is that of a sharing economy, you would have to agree that this trend is actually something different.newacc2015 wrote: »I mentioned why we cant be like Paris above. Also if our hotels are at capacity on a typical mid week with no events on in the city. But taking airbnb away from tourists. Explain how it wouldnt negatively affect the tourist industry? If I cant find an airbnb or hotel in a city. I wont visit a city
I'd have no issue with Airbnb being used by people who are out of town during these events or who want to let out a room temporarily. The problem is when the entire property is taken out of residential use permanently.
If you want us to be more like Paris then you would agree that the council should set up a 20 person task force to crack down on offenders and bring properties back into the residential accommodation stock as was recently done in the City of Light
If the problem is no beds for tourists then build hotels, build holiday homes - don't allow an illegal behaviour that encourages beds to be taken away from ordinary citizens.0 -
Sharktopus wrote: »I understand perfectly well supply and demand. In order of something to be part of the supply it needs to be available.The point is that based on that snapshot there are more property units available on the short term holiday market right now. The evidence would suggest that a large amount of these properties are operating as long term commercial concerns (probably against planning regulations).
You need to remember that not everyone in rented accommodation is looking to move and not every rental property is currently on the market. Only a % are - let's assume that only 1 in 20 rental properties is currently for rent, that would mean a 20% increase in supply if these properties were brought back into the net (going by your figures) .
Yes... and I think that long term commercial letting is an aberration of what they claim to be about. Here is how they described themselves in their own pre-budget submission "Many of our hosts make part of their home available, such as a spare room or suite of rooms. Others use their entire place, passing the keys to a guest and leaving them to enjoy their whole home, for example if they are themselves going on holiday or travelling on business" - no mention of long term commercial use.
Would you agree that running an apartment as a hotel room, available all year round with cleaning services etc is contrary to that description?
I suggested nothing of the sort. There are some spectacular places on Airbnb Dublin. But from what I can see the vast majority are perfectly reasonable properties suitable for standard residential living. These are being taken out of the rental stock.
This is where we get into the hierarchy of needs. If you are suggesting that tourist needs somehow trump the needs of citizens then we'll never see eye to eye on this. I believe that accommodation is a basic right and by going against planning permission and behaving this way there is a denial of supply going on. The Airbnb ethos is that of a sharing economy, you would have to agree that this trend is actually something different.
I'd have no issue with Airbnb being used by people who are out of town during these events or who want to let out a room temporarily. The problem is when the entire property is taken out of residential use permanently.
If you want us to be more like Paris then you would agree that the council should set up a 20 person task force to crack down on offenders and bring properties back into the residential accommodation stock as was recently done in the City of Light
If the problem is no beds for tourists then build hotels, build holiday homes - don't allow an illegal behaviour that encourages beds to be taken away from ordinary citizens.
Temporarily increasing supply, doesnt result in a long term increase in supply ie putting 1k apartments on the rental market tomorrow wont resolve the supply issue in one month. It is like Iran selling the world demand for oil for a week on a single day and not repeating. It reduces the oil prices temporarily and doesnt increase supply significantly in the long run.
There is no mention of long term use, as they were lobbying for a change in the rent a room scheme. That is the reason why it isnt there.
If you look at airbnb. Most listings are for a single room. Not the entire property
https://www.airbnb.ie/s/Dublin?guests=2&checkin=13-04-2016&checkout=20-04-2016&ss_id=lwffzzze&source=bb&s_tag=k3dMv4Ry
So we should spend €800k on hiring people to enforce an Airbnb ban? Would you not think that money would be better spent by the council on building 8 homes for families. That will make a difference to the housing stock. Or hiring Gardai to make the streets safer?
I imagine Paris or "city of light" only hired those people, as the French love hiring staff for the sake of it. The French Government hires a ridiculous amount of people for the sake of it and to keep unemployment low. Ask any French person about what a waste of space most of the French civil service is.
Who is going to build these hotels and holiday homes? It is cheaper to buy an existing apartment that build a new one. A hotel room costs nearly 200k to build. Who is going to spend that much money?
This "illegal behaviour" is contributing tens of millions to the economy. Instead of blaming property owners for the shortage of housing. Maybe you should ask why arent DCC building more housing. Stopping Airbnb might free up a weeks housing on daft. But it isnt going to the massive difference to the housing shortage like you think0 -
Killing AirBnB will drop rents, that's for sure. It's having way too much of an influence on the rental market, and needs to be much more strictly defined in regulation, so that it's not:
1: Removing rental housing stock from the market, and
2: Not pushing up rents in general.
AirBnB's effect on rents, is siphoning money from the economy - from peoples pockets, who have to pay the generally increased rents - not adding money.
The rental market is supposed to function for providing people living here, with stable housing - not for providing temporary and overpriced holiday housing, which distorts the rest of the rental market.
This needs to be cracked down on immediately - in addition to making efforts at resolving the housing supply shortage.0 -
Just saw this....
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/apartments-for-sale/temple-bar/apt-1a-crown-alley-temple-bar-dublin-1181307/
425,000 for a 2 bed property....
90% occupancy over the course of a year....
79k income in 2015
and there are those who argue that short term letting of residential units isnt distorting the market....0 -
Hi guys i have just moved into a new apartment and i still have my old one and can keep it on if i wont as still another 6 months of the lease left.
I am thinking of renting it as a AIR B and B as the landlord has agree to let me Sub Let the place in writing.
ITs a 2 bed room apartment in the centre of cork. IT can easily sleep 4 to 6 people.
How much would people pay for it ?. And would it be worth my while to keep it ?.
The rent is 1200 a month. Is it posable that i could make the money back and a profit ?. As i know i can earn up to 10K with renting it a year.0 -
Advertisement
-
The full amount will be taxable at your marginal rate so you will not make a profit. You're better off assigning the remainder of the lease0
-
There is also planning to be dealt I'm lead to believe, although a blind eye seems to be being turned. I know our board has be rumbling about a guy letting apartments through Air BnB.0
-
TrustedApple wrote: »As i know i can earn up to 10K with renting it a year.
What's this you speak of?
Surely not the rent a room scheme, which is 12k by the way, but you have to living there.0 -
-
Sharktopus wrote: »Just saw this....
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/apartments-for-sale/temple-bar/apt-1a-crown-alley-temple-bar-dublin-1181307/
425,000 for a 2 bed property....
90% occupancy over the course of a year....
79k income in 2015
and there are those who argue that short term letting of residential units isnt distorting the market....
Can I ask how many Dubliners do you think would happily live in that part of Temple Bar? Would you be happy with living in an area with constant buskers, sick on the street, drunk tourist and shouting until 4am?
What someone does with their property should be no one else's concern. The Government and DCC are getting away with no providing enough social housing, as you and hundreds of thousands of people cant seem to understand that landlords arent the cause of housing shortage. If DCC were providing enough social housing, the market rate would self adjust downward.
Blaming Landlords for the high cost of renting in Dublin is little blaming a Texan with a few oil wells for the high price of oil. A single Texan cant set the world oil prices, the market sets that. Likewise that single apartment in Temple Bar is not setting price of entire Dublin rental market
Look DCC horrific attempt at redeveloping O Devaney Gardens. One of the largest sites close to the city and they are building houses! Why arent they building high rise apartments?0 -
Advertisement
-
We have recently had some experience of air bnb and i have to say, its a very good experience.
We recently bought a house that has two self contained apartments stuck on to the side of it, both with doors leading to the main part of the house.
We were going to use them for something else but have decided to rent them on air bnb to see what its like.
I got a mate to put in key codes entry that could be managed remotely for €600 instead of locks.
We put them on air bnb a good few weeks ago and since then we are booked up for 90% of the year.
We dont even have to be there to let people in if we happen to be away.
We just set the codes for particular dates and email that to the people coming to stay.
Then we have a local cleaner who comes in and cleans up after every stay.
I was a bit sceptical with this setup (a friend in the US coached me on it) at first but now i would have it any day over dealing with tenants and PRTB rules etc. Id rather just air bnb and pay the fees and the tax. Air bnb really does take any hassle out of it. And with the keycodes and email its totally effortless. We make money for nothing. People treat the rentals with respect, most returning it as clean and tidy as they got it, and there are no issues at all. We can be home or not and it still works out.0 -
The rental market is made up of many landlords. Look up the quantity of rentals on AirBnB for Dublin, and then look at the quantity of rentals on Daft - there are a huge number of rentals on AirBnB, rentals that should be illegal.newacc2015 wrote: »Can I ask how many Dubliners do you think would happily live in that part of Temple Bar? Would you be happy with living in an area with constant buskers, sick on the street, drunk tourist and shouting until 4am?
What someone does with their property should be no one else's concern. The Government and DCC are getting away with no providing enough social housing, as you and hundreds of thousands of people cant seem to understand that landlords arent the cause of housing shortage. If DCC were providing enough social housing, the market rate would self adjust downward.
Blaming Landlords for the high cost of renting in Dublin is little blaming a Texan with a few oil wells for the high price of oil. A single Texan cant set the world oil prices, the market sets that. Likewise that single apartment in Temple Bar is not setting price of entire Dublin rental market
Look DCC horrific attempt at redeveloping O Devaney Gardens. One of the largest sites close to the city and they are building houses! Why arent they building high rise apartments?
Social housing is a factor - and so is the AirBnB 'grey' market - among other things.0 -
newacc2015 wrote: »Can I ask how many Dubliners do you think would happily live in that part of Temple Bar? Would you be happy with living in an area with constant buskers, sick on the street, drunk tourist and shouting until 4am?
Dublin City council have just spent a fortune redeveloping the social housing units just metres away from this apartment. I've been living in the area for over 10 years - its not without its problems, but I love living here and hope to do so for many years to come. I have many good neighbours who would share similar sentiments.
Why do you think the market in Dublin is so different that we are immune to the problems faced by other cities? It has been widely reported that Berlin is bringing 12000 units back into the rental market by cracking down on short term lets. This was urged on by spiralling rents. Similar measures are being taken in Milan, Barcelona, Paris and I'm sure many more. What makes us so special?
I have seen this phenomenon grow over the past 12 months. I believe that we are at the thin edge of the wedge on this. There is a burgeoning mini-industry growing up around it offering key collection, concierge, cleaning services, linen changing etc. These are no longer apartments - they are hotels.
During the week a neighbour of mine put up a one bedroom apartment on Daft.ie. He immediately received a note from a business who wanted to take the apartment and use it for short term lets. They claimed they had taken 30 apartments in the past year and used them as overflow apartments for hotels as well as renting them through airbnb. They offered to pay considerably above the asking price and offered to furnish the apartment free of charge. Mental stuff.newacc2015 wrote: »What someone does with their property should be no one else's concern. The Government and DCC are getting away with no providing enough social housing, as you and hundreds of thousands of people cant seem to understand that landlords arent the cause of housing shortage. If DCC were providing enough social housing, the market rate would self adjust downward.
I agree that people should be free to do what they want with their property. But not if it goes against planning. This unit is zoned residential and yet the seller is boasting about a 90% occupancy for a commercial activity. If you were to turn your house into a night club you would have to apply for a change of use. It is no different if you decide to change your house into a hotel.
I would also question why these apartments arent being hit for commercial rates, 9% hotel vat, pay commercial water charges etc.
The property market is complex. There is a need for social housing. But that isnt going to help the 25 year old still living at home with his parents. Or the new arrival for one of the many gleaming multinationals in Dublin. This is one area where rental stock that would normally serve their needs is being diverted away and causing issues.newacc2015 wrote: »Blaming Landlords for the high cost of renting in Dublin is little blaming a Texan with a few oil wells for the high price of oil. A single Texan cant set the world oil prices, the market sets that. Likewise that single apartment in Temple Bar is not setting price of entire Dublin rental market
Not a great analogy. There is only one oil market. What this activity is doing is taking the supply for one market and diverting into a totally separate industry. A more apt comparison would be how diverting a river upstream to a funpark can cause a drought downstream at the village. Its the same amount of water - it just gets used differently.
I would really love to know why you think Dublin is different from other cities in the world on this issue? I am getting a bit of Celtic Tiger deja vu on this one when people start to think that we are somehow different and that the market rules that are in play elsewhere don't apply to us.0 -
I know where these apartments are. They are not on the main square of Temple Bar. There is no comparison to these apartments. Living on O Connell St is totally different to living on Talbot St.
I imagine your neighbour was tempted. When someone invests in something, they aim to get the best return. Except the Government has made life very difficult for landlords ie rent control. So a lot are choosing short term lets.
Would you be happier if a few companies brought up hundreds of these apartments in blocks and switched them from residential to short term lets? There is no chance of them ever going back to normal rentals and will take hundreds of housing units out of the system. But it wouldnt be violating a planning rule.
How much do you know about the property industry? If you have several properties you paying income taxes of close to 40-50%. They arent paying the pathetic 9% VAT rate or 12.5% Corporation tax like hotel. But these Airbnbs are paying far more taxes.Do you think this income is tax free?
Can I ask why you chosen to ignore the fact DCC and the Government are not providing enough social housing? You have ignored my comment on the poor redevelopment of O'Devaney gardens and just blamed greedy landlords. We can ban Airbnb and increase the housing supply by a hundreds apartment over night. A once off event, which anyone with a basic knowledge of economics knows it will have little impact on supply or price in the long run. Or DCC can increase the housing units by 5k p.a. for the next 10 years which will drive actually drive down rent in the long term.0 -
It's just around the corner from them - less than 20 meters. They share exactly the same problems you alluded to in your post. Would you stop with the crap comparisons, its not doing you any favours.newacc2015 wrote: »I know where these apartments are. They are not on the main square of Temple Bar. There is no comparison to these apartments. Living on O Connell St is totally different to living on Talbot St.
He was tempted but he said he was going to report it to the council. You aim to get the best return - but within the confines of the law. This kind of bottom feeding is taking stock out of the market. It creates social problems down the line and isnt good for the community in the long run.newacc2015 wrote: »I imagine your neighbour was tempted. When someone invests in something, they aim to get the best return. Except the Government has made life very difficult for landlords ie rent control. So a lot are choosing short term lets.
Agree with you that government make things very difficult for landlords. But two wrongs don't make a right.
I would imagine that en mass changing of planning status away from residential during an accommodation crisis wouldnt be granted given the current emergency in accommodation. What is happening now is that companies and individuals are doing the same thing under the radar - if planning isnt enforced why bother making an issue out of it. I think people are taking the 'better to ask for forgiveness than permission' approach. Why bother with the paperwork if you are going to get away with it anyway?newacc2015 wrote: »Would you be happier if a few companies brought up hundreds of these apartments in blocks and switched them from residential to short term lets? There is no chance of them ever going back to normal rentals and will take hundreds of housing units out of the system. But it wouldnt be violating a planning rule.newacc2015 wrote: »How much do you know about the property industry? If you have several properties you paying income taxes of close to 40-50%. They arent paying the pathetic 9% VAT rate or 12.5% Corporation tax like hotel. But these Airbnbs are paying far more taxes.Do you think this income is tax free?
How much do you know about tax? A sole trader renting out a guesthouse is subject to the income tax plus Vat plus commercial rates. If they are incorporated as a company they pay corporation tax, but also income tax on any income they take out of the business. You've just underlined my point. This short term letting is actually helping businesses avoid paying their full quota of taxes.
9% vat is due on hotel lettings, including guesthouses, caravan parks, camping sites etc - but it is applied on top of other taxes.
If they are a commercial enterprise they are liable for commercial rates as wellnewacc2015 wrote: »Can I ask why you chosen to ignore the fact DCC and the Government are not providing enough social housing? You have ignored my comment on the poor redevelopment of O'Devaney gardens and just blamed greedy landlords. We can ban Airbnb and increase the housing supply by a hundreds apartment over night.
I didnt ignore it. I'm starting to learn that you are someone who only sees what they want to. Re-read my post and see my comments about this being a complex issue and that social housing, though badly needed and an important part of the jigsaw is only one strand of the solution. But more social housing isnt going to help everyone who is currently locked out of the rental market.
Can I ask you why you didn't answer my question about why Dublin is so unique that we don't have a problem similar to other European cities and require similar action to sort it out? Why are you defending this so much or not even acknowledging that there might be an issue?newacc2015 wrote: »A once off event, which anyone with a basic knowledge of economics knows it will have little impact on supply or price in the long run. Or DCC can increase the housing units by 5k p.a. for the next 10 years which will drive actually drive down rent in the long term.
This isn't about the one off events. Its about residentially zoned properties that are rented out for most of the year as short term let apartments - ie becoming de facto hotels. In the case of the link I supplied early it stated 90% occupancy. I'm not against airbnb - its great as a valve for supply and can provide homes with additional income. But you have to admit that what is going on at the moment is a completely different type of use.
Other cities have taken action to ensure that residential supply is protected - why cant we?0 -
We have recently had some experience of air bnb and i have to say, its a very good experience.
We recently bought a house that has two self contained apartments stuck on to the side of it, both with doors leading to the main part of the house.
We were going to use them for something else but have decided to rent them on air bnb to see what its like.
I got a mate to put in key codes entry that could be managed remotely for €600 instead of locks.
We put them on air bnb a good few weeks ago and since then we are booked up for 90% of the year.
We dont even have to be there to let people in if we happen to be away.
We just set the codes for particular dates and email that to the people coming to stay.
Then we have a local cleaner who comes in and cleans up after every stay.
I was a bit sceptical with this setup (a friend in the US coached me on it) at first but now i would have it any day over dealing with tenants and PRTB rules etc. Id rather just air bnb and pay the fees and the tax. Air bnb really does take any hassle out of it. And with the keycodes and email its totally effortless. We make money for nothing. People treat the rentals with respect, most returning it as clean and tidy as they got it, and there are no issues at all. We can be home or not and it still works out.
For your ease of mind, read this: 10 AirBnB Horror Stories .
I also hope you have a public liability insurance for your apartments.0 -
If anyone turns over more than €37,500 from AirBnB in a 12 month periods they would be liable for VAT as well as income tax.0
-
How many threads on boards have there been about anti-social tenants? Now many threads have there been on issues from airbnb lettings? I have yet to see one on issues caused by airbnb. But there is countless ones on long term tenants.
DCC cant decide they arent going to allow a private company to change the use of their building because they are incapable of providing their own social housing. A private business shouldnt be impacted because of situation that is not caused by them.
You are missing point about taxation. Even if you set up an LTD to manage the lettings, you are paying more tax than a hotel chain.
DCC providing social housing is a complex issue. So therefore ignore it? If you ban airbnb. It still is not dealing with the thousands of new homes that need to be built in the city each year. You are blaming landlords, instead of DCC.
Dublin is rapidly growing unlike the other cities you listed. Housing units need to be built. Outlawing Airbnb might be grand for Madrid. But Dublin is one of the fastest growing decent sized in Europe. We need new housing to be built. That cant be said for a lot of cities in Europe. Dublin probably has one of the largest shortages of housing in Europe. Banning airbnb might help deal with 2 months of housing supply. Will it provide 8k unit of housing units needed for the next 10 years? Do you not think social housing should be provided by the Government.
I imagine Cities are banning Airbnb instead of dealing with the root of the issue ie lack of affordable housing in these cities. Airbnb or short term lettings were not an issue in 2011, as Dublin had tons of empty housing. If DCC provided enough housing, Airbnb would not be an issue in the city, as the housing would be competing with housing for locals
Do you know where Airbnb HQ for Europe is? Dublin and they employ over 500 people here in the city. You can generally assume they employ another 2.5 employees indirectly. They rent a massive office and pay huge amounts of tax here. We can ban them in Dublin. But we would be pissing off a massive employer in the City.0 -
For your ease of mind, read this: 10 AirBnB Horror Stories .
I also hope you have a public liability insurance for your apartments.
My own and a fair few friends actual experience tells us it is all working out very well. One of them has been doing Air bnb since it started.
Another few started only a year after air bnb started.
No point me worrying about ghost stories from internet spirits. Im going to go on actual real peoples experience as well as my own.
Ill be sure to come back and post if it all goes wrong.
But for now its great.0 -
When people make an appeal to 'basic economics', without actually explaining their argument, most of the time what they are doing is try to use hand-waviness to get other people to accept faulty logic as true.newacc2015 wrote: »...
Can I ask why you chosen to ignore the fact DCC and the Government are not providing enough social housing? You have ignored my comment on the poor redevelopment of O'Devaney gardens and just blamed greedy landlords. We can ban Airbnb and increase the housing supply by a hundreds apartment over night. A once off event, which anyone with a basic knowledge of economics knows it will have little impact on supply or price in the long run. Or DCC can increase the housing units by 5k p.a. for the next 10 years which will drive actually drive down rent in the long term.
There are more rentals on AirBnB, than there are on Daft. Banning AirBnB wouldn't reintroduce hundreds of rentals, it would reintroduce thousands of rentals - in fact, even though the Daft vs AirBnB stats likely aren't 1:1 comparable, it looks like it could actually come close to doubling the available property on the rental market...(if not far more)
This is a huge problem, and it's not a once-off event - it dictates the future course of the rental market:
Either new/existing private properties are going to gravitate towards transitioning to AirBnB, or they are going to gravitate towards proper long-term rentals.
Banning AirBnB decides the future course of the entire rental market. Not banning or severely regulating it, pretty much locks in a massive increase in rents, and poor long-term-rental supply forever (because there's no way enough social housing is going to be built, to supply the whole long-term-rental market - hell private developers are even trying to block government/NAMA from building social houses!).
Building social housing isn't going to solve the issue of private rentals, gravitating towards shor-term rentals. Building social housing is needed, but it's not going to solve the problem on its own.0 -
Advertisement
-
Oh great, lets let AirBnB shaft everyone renting long-term in Dublin - causing huge rents to be extracted from these people - just because we might piss them off, and a privileged few may have to worry about their jobs...I'm sure they're just here out of the good of their hearts too, and not just to take advantage of Ireland being a corporate tax haven...newacc2015 wrote: »Do you know where Airbnb HQ for Europe is? Dublin and they employ over 500 people here in the city. You can generally assume they employ another 2.5 employees indirectly. They rent a massive office and pay huge amounts of tax here. We can ban them in Dublin. But we would be pissing off a massive employer in the City.
That's not a valid argument for not dealing with the problem AirBnB are causing - their business practices are harming the country and AirBnB are harming every single person renting in Dublin, we don't want them here - they can bugger off to funnel their money through another low-corporate-tax country (except if they could do that for a better profit, they already would have wouldn't they...).0 -
KomradeBishop wrote: »When people make an appeal to 'basic economics', without actually explaining their argument, most of the time what they are doing is try to use hand-waviness to get other people to accept faulty logic as true.
There are more rentals on AirBnB, than there are on Daft. Banning AirBnB wouldn't reintroduce hundreds of rentals, it would reintroduce thousands of rentals - in fact, even though the Daft vs AirBnB stats likely aren't 1:1 comparable, it looks like it could actually come close to doubling the available property on the rental market...(if not far more)
This is a huge problem, and it's not a once-off event - it dictates the future course of the rental market:
Either new/existing private properties are going to gravitate towards transitioning to AirBnB, or they are going to gravitate towards proper long-term rentals.
Banning AirBnB decides the future course of the entire rental market. Not banning or severely regulating it, pretty much locks in a massive increase in rents, and poor long-term-rental supply forever (because there's no way enough social housing is going to be built, to supply the whole long-term-rental market - hell private developers are even trying to block government/NAMA from building social houses!).
Building social housing isn't going to solve the issue of private rentals, gravitating towards shor-term rentals. Building social housing is needed, but it's not going to solve the problem on its own.
Eh? There is no logic in your comment. If you put say 1.5k apartment back into Dublin City housing supply from Airbnb. You can accommodate maybe 3.5k more people. Which is great until you realise that 1.3 million people live in Dublin that is a fraction of 1%. You have increased the supply very marginally to the extent, it will have little impact.
Do you not think if DCC housed 25k more people, that their would a sizable impact on housing supply and therefore rent prices? As you would take people out of private housing and into DCC owned social housing. Therefore freeing them up units previously occupied by social housing tenants, that can now be let to everyday Dubliners.
It is extremely naive to think there is no connection between building social housing and impact private rental supply. It is however naive to think banning Airbnb will solve DCC housing shortage in perpetuity. Can ask we have you absolved DCC from providing housing?
Whether you like Airbnb or not. They are responsible for around 1,250 jobs in the city. How are we going to build new social housing with revenue from the likes of Airbnb? Airbnb are helping our tourist industry which employs more people than agriculture in this country. Do we ban them and loss tens of thousands of jobs instead of making DCC do their job of providing social housing?0 -
Mod note
Can we leave out the politics and social housing please. Plenty of other threads for that.
Also please quote selectively, quoting lengthy posts entirely makes it difficult for mobile users. Thanks0 -
Yes Dublin is a rapidly growing city. That is why every residential unit, be they private of social needs to be made available. You are actually making a very strong argument here for enforcing a crack-down on illegal short term letting. Perhaps with even more draconian measures than we have seen in other Euroean cities. There is no logic whatsoever in saying that because the city is growing rapidly we should turn a blind eye to illegal short term letting.newacc2015 wrote: »Dublin is rapidly growing unlike the other cities you listed. Housing units need to be built. Outlawing Airbnb might be grand for Madrid. But Dublin is one of the fastest growing decent sized in Europe. We need new housing to be built. That cant be said for a lot of cities in Europe. Dublin probably has one of the largest shortages of housing in Europe. Banning airbnb might help deal with 2 months of housing supply. Will it provide 8k unit of housing units needed for the next 10 years? Do you not think social housing should be provided by the Government.
Social housing is vital as it takes the pressure off the private rental market. But we need to ensure that there is a supply of private rental units. I would argue that in a time of emergency, every single unit that can be kept in the net is vital.newacc2015 wrote: »Do you not think if DCC housed 25k more people, that their would a sizable impact on housing supply and therefore rent prices? As you would take people out of private housing and into DCC owned social housing. Therefore freeing them up units previously occupied by social housing tenants, that can now be let to everyday Dubliners.
And that is why ensuring that we keep these units available for renters and not tourists is so important. What is the point in freeing up units if they are to be taken out of the pool by having their use changed? Again - your logic actual points towards a clampdown on units which have illegally changed their use to short term let, not to continue the blind eye that is been shown towards it. You are quick to point out DCCs failings when it comes to social housing, why are you so slow to be critical of their shortcomings on planning enforcement?
When you've nothing else to add to a conversation - create a straw man and knock it down.... I don't think anyone on this thread has said there is no connection between the two - of course there is. And restriction on illegal short term lets doesnt absolve DCCs obligations to provide social housing. What it does is allow the private market to be functioning to facilitate renters. Our rental system is badly in need of reform and the PRTB badly needs an overhaul - every effort must be made to encourage landlords to provide adequate long term accommodation, this should include enforcement of planning legislation to make sure there are no unauthorised changes of use.newacc2015 wrote: »It is extremely naive to think there is no connection between building social housing and impact private rental supply. It is however naive to think banning Airbnb will solve DCC housing shortage in perpetuity. Can ask we have you absolved DCC from providing housing?
KomradeBishop put it best when he/she said"it dictates the future course of the rental market:
Either new/existing private properties are going to gravitate towards transitioning to AirBnB, or they are going to gravitate towards proper long-term rentals."
You don't have to ban them... you just make sure that when they are operating in a market they make sure that their users stick to the planning regulations in place.newacc2015 wrote: »Whether you like Airbnb or not. They are responsible for around 1,250 jobs in the city. How are we going to build new social housing with revenue from the likes of Airbnb? Airbnb are helping our tourist industry which employs more people than agriculture in this country. Do we ban them and loss tens of thousands of jobs instead of making DCC do their job of providing social housing?
The principle of airbnb is sound. Home owners can let out a spare room, or if they are away for a few weeks their entire property. What we are seeing on a very large scale in Dublin is an aberration of this principle - where units are being removed from the rental supply.
There is an excellent Irish company called www.homestay.com that offers a similar service to Airbnb, but requires the property owner to be present . I'd love to hear you be a cheerleader for these guys instead of a shill for an activity that is having a negative effect on the rental sector, and which promises to only grow as an issue if left unchecked.0 -
Sharktopus wrote: »Yes Dublin is a rapidly growing city. That is why every residential unit, be they private of social needs to be made available. You are actually making a very strong argument here for enforcing a crack-down on illegal short term letting. Perhaps with even more draconian measures than we have seen in other Euroean cities. There is no logic whatsoever in saying that because the city is growing rapidly we should turn a blind eye to illegal short term letting.
There is no point debating this with you. You seem to think banning Airbnb will resolve the house crisis overnight. Despite it only be a fraction of housing units in the city and demand for using apartments as Airbnb wont continue indefinitely.
45% of housing that is for sale in Dublin is from former investors and only 25% of purchases are by investors. If you ban Airbnb, I imagine you will see a sizeable share of them being sold to private families and they will be taken out the rental system completely. You own a property as an investor to make as much money as possible. If I owned an Airbnb taking in €4k a month and it was banned. On a normal 12 month rental I might get €1600 with the risk of non-paying tenants, high taxes, rent control etc. If I was that Landlord I would sell up and get out of the industry0 -
newacc2015 wrote: »If you ban Airbnb, I imagine you will see a sizeable share of them being sold to private families and they will be taken out the rental system completely. You own a property as an investor to make as much money as possible. If I owned an Airbnb taking in €4k a month and it was banned. On a normal 12 month rental I might get €1600 with the risk of non-paying tenants, high taxes, rent control etc. If I was that Landlord I would sell up and get out of the industry
Sell the unit to FAMILIES - wow, you are painting a nightmare scenario here.... that is the least favourable outcome in your view?
If you think it is preferable for a private investor to keep the unit out of the rental market by letting it out to tourists on a commercial basis in order to maximise their profit then so be it. It really says it all.
And for the upteenth time - I am not looking for a ban on Airbnb, I actually admire the stated aim of the site. What I would like is for DCC to crack down on breaches of planning regulation that sees residential units being let out on a commercial basis for significant portions of the year - actually enforce planning law for a change0 -
From the Irish Times Wed 23rd March 2016:-
Planning permission
A spokeswoman for South Dublin County Council said that whether a residential property was occupied on a rental basis or by the owner was not a matter for it.
“Essentially the use is for residential purposes and only if, for example, residential use is changed to commercial use, as in a shop or other commercial activity, is planning permission required.”
Dublin City Council said there was nothing under the Planning Act that precluded the use of a residence for short-term purposes.
Fingal County Council said it investigates alleged unauthorised uses and takes enforcement action as necessary.0 -
From the Irish Times Wed 23rd March 2016:-
Planning permission
A spokeswoman for South Dublin County Council said that whether a residential property was occupied on a rental basis or by the owner was not a matter for it.
“Essentially the use is for residential purposes and only if, for example, residential use is changed to commercial use, as in a shop or other commercial activity, is planning permission required.”
Dublin City Council said there was nothing under the Planning Act that precluded the use of a residence for short-term purposes.
Fingal County Council said it investigates alleged unauthorised uses and takes enforcement action as necessary.
I had seen that and was interested that they took such a muted response.
These type of lettings have been in front of the Courts before - and the usage was deemed to be Commercial ie McMahon v Dublin Corporation case mentioned earlier which ruled that short term letting constituted commercial use and represented a material change of use.0 -
Sharktopus wrote: »I had seen that and was interested that they took such a muted response.
These type of lettings have been in front of the Courts before - and the usage was deemed to be Commercial ie McMahon v Dublin Corporation case mentioned earlier which ruled that short term letting constituted commercial use and represented a material change of use.
The councils don't want the hassle of enforcement. The owner has to be tracked down and issued with an enforcement notice. Then an injunction has to be applied for. The case has to be proven so witnesses are needed. When there is no physical change to the property proving a use like this is time consuming. The councils are happier to pay for hotels for the homeless than chase up changes of use to apartments. The other issue is that each block of apartments may have different planning permissions and some may in fact allow for short term lettings.0 -
Advertisement
-
People stating that there are more airbnb listings at any one time over the number of listings on daft is a weak argument, the listings on airbnb for the most part have been cumulative, over years.
It is fair to say that apartment blocks are not ideal given the fact common areas are involved, but then again management companies are paid far in excess of the cost to maintain and dealing with them as a tenant for the simplest problems is like extracting teeth.
As far as housing is concerned, where was this outcry when NAMA were selling a collection of apartments in lots to one buyer at a price far less than putting the apartments individually on the market and giving a "family" the chance to acquire the property. Asides from that point alone, what happened to the duty of a liquidator to attain the best price possible, this was not achieved due to the points stated above.
All in all, If I have a property I will do what I want with it within reason and using it for Airbnb purposes is within reason, maybe not yours BUT MINE, because its not your name on the deeds. Anything I make will be levied at approx 60%, for the social good, or better stated as their funding to pander to the masses, it might as well go straight into their election fund.
O ya, how long ago was it stated that Dublin has a serious shortage of hotel rooms for tourists, to the point that tourists will be reconsidering their choice to come to Ireland at all.0
Advertisement